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Intel 34nm SSDs Lower Prices, Raise Performance

Vigile writes "When Intel's consumer line of solid state drives were first introduced late in 2008, they impressed reviewers with their performance and reliability. Intel gained a lot of community respect by addressing some performance degradation issues found at PC Perspective by quickly releasing an updated firmware that solved those problems and then some. Now Intel has its second generation of X25-M drives available, designated by a "G2" in the model name. The SSDs are technically very similar though they use 34nm flash rather than the 50nm flash used in the originals and reduced latency times. What is really going to set these new drives apart though, both from the previous Intel offerings and their competition, are the much lower prices allowed by the increased memory density. PC Perspective has posted a full review and breakdown of the new product line that should be available next week."

195 comments

  1. Oooh. by HitoGuy · · Score: 0

    Does this mean that SSDs aren't laughably expensive yet?

    --
    I am beginning to think that maybe Darl McBride was attacked viciously by a penguin as a child.
    1. Re:Oooh. by slyn · · Score: 4, Informative

      Last year when the x25-m first came out the 80 gig version cost $595, or just a little less than $7.50/gig. Now the same 1st gen drive costs $314 with a -10 dollar discount and free shipping on newegg, or about $3.92/gig.

      The new 2nd generation drive 80 gig drive sells for $225, or $2.81/gig. If it follows the same price trend as the 1st gen model around this time next year it should cost ~125 dollars, or about $1.53/gig.

      Here are the quick results of the xbench of my 5400rpm 160gig drive in my two year old macbook pro:

      Sequential
              Uncached Write 35.48 MB/sec [4K blocks]
              Uncached Write 38.42 MB/sec [256K blocks]
              Uncached Read 10.70 MB/sec [4K blocks]
              Uncached Read 40.71 MB/sec [256K blocks]
      Random
              Uncached Write 0.86 MB/sec [4K blocks]
              Uncached Write 21.42 MB/sec [256K blocks]
              Uncached Read 0.42 MB/sec [4K blocks]
              Uncached Read 16.66 MB/sec [256K blocks]

      Compare those to the results of the new drive here: http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=3607&p=4

      Sequential read on the SSD is over 6x faster, and sequential write is 2x faster, but for the performance where it matters the difference is much more noticeable. Random read on the SSD is nearly 140x faster, and random write is over 40x faster.

      Couple that performance difference with the lower power consumption, lower noise, and higher threshold for damage, and its a no brainer as to what is the single most price-efficient possible upgrade you can make to a laptop to boost overall performance, responsiveness, and battery life.

      I wish I could justify buying one now, but I can't. However, 12 to 18 months from now I will probably be shopping around for a new laptop, and when I do I won't be settling for anything but a SSD. The benefits are just to great to ignore.

    2. Re:Oooh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      how long till they catch-up with HDD though, SSDs great for laptops (maybe high performance servers too), but i can pick up a 1TB drive and use a smart FS (logfs for example where there is little random write) at $0.09/gig!

    3. Re:Oooh. by CopaceticOpus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Let's make some wild predictions based on recent price trends. (Trends found here). Over the last few years, flash memory has been increasing in GB/$ at a rate of 185% per year. Meanwhile, hard drives have slowed to only 42% improvement per year.

      Based on these trends, here is the estimated cost of 10 TB using either technology:

      July 2009: Platter = $750, Flash = $28,125

      July 2010: Platter = $528, Flash = $9,868

      July 2014: Platter= $130, Flash = $150

      July 2019: Platter= $23, Flash = $0.80

      July 2024: Platter= $4, Flash = $0.004

      In July 2024, a 10 PB flash drive would cost $42! Of course, we can't assume these trends will continue, but it seems a good bet that we won't be worrying about the size of our mp3 collections. The traditional hard drive may only have five years of competitive life remaining.

    4. Re:Oooh. by maxume · · Score: 1

      There is a huge market segment that doesn't care about much more space than 500 GB, so when the cheapest hard disk available is only $75 cheaper than a 500 GB SSD that runs circles around it, lots of people are going to go with the SSD.

      So the actual crossing of the price / GB ratios isn't real important to the people marketing the SSDs.

      Hell, I would jump at a 320 GB SSD for $200, which is nearly 7 times the price ratio you quote.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    5. Re:Oooh. by obarthelemy · · Score: 1

      "boost overall performance, responsiveness, and battery life"

      That's the crux: SSDs boost performance pretty much only when doing random reads. Not random writes, not sequential reads, and not anything not HD-related. Basically, you're boosting boot times, app launch, game level load... and anything else that has to do with disk access, exclusively.

      $200-400 is a lot to pay for a boost, even sizeable, in those rare occasions. They don't help with anything CPU-, RAM- or I/O-intensive. And cost pretty much the price of a second computer, or a netbook.

      --
      The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    6. Re:Oooh. by obarthelemy · · Score: 2, Funny

      Let's make a few predictions based on recent trends:

      July 2007: number of wives = 0
      July 2009: number of wives = 1

      July 2011: number of wives = 2
      July 2013: number of wives = 3
      July 2015: number of wives = 4
      July 2017: number of wives = 5
      July 2019: number of wives = 6
      July 2021: number of wives = 7

      Gosh, I'll need to implement wear levelling soon, too.

      Extrapolation: almost as good as copulation.

      --
      The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    7. Re:Oooh. by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Intel's SSD (and OCZ's Vertex) boost random read AND write speed, as well as sequential read AND write speed.

      So what the hell are you talking about? Did we catch you talking about something you havent research at all, again?

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    8. Re:Oooh. by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Its not only that, but the commodity platters that currently cost so little are not anywhere near the high end of regular HD performance. Time and again people compare the best HD performance against SSD's while only considering the lowest HD prices.

      A high performance 10K RPM drive is going to cost $0.66/GB at best, while the 15K RPM drive will easily cost $1.00/GB or even a lot more. SSD's are considerably faster than these things, and look even better compared to the commodity drives.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    9. Re:Oooh. by Randle_Revar · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >Sequential read on the SSD is over 6x faster, and sequential write is 2x faster,
      >but for the performance where it matters the difference is much more noticeable.
      >Random read on the SSD is nearly 140x faster, and random write is over 40x faster.

      So
      >Not random writes, not sequential reads, and not anything not HD-related.
      is wrong.

      It also seems to me that you don't really need to say
      >[no performance increases on] anything not HD-related.
      or
      >They don't help with anything CPU-, RAM-...-intensive
      when you are talking about hard drive upgrades.

      And of course it does help with I/O intensive stuff if that I/O is to the HD.

      My RAM and CPU speed are fine, but my second upgrade (when I can afford it) will be an SSD (my first upgrade will be a video card - I currently have an Intel x3100, good for bleeding edge Xorg stuff, but low-powered, and Radeon[HD] will be catching up before I can afford it).

      P.S. I wish slashdot would quote like a mail client (or a *chan), Also, the preview should not leave out blank lines if they will be present in the final post

    10. Re:Oooh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh come on, single most important upgrade? It depends entirely on what you do. After my computer is booted, the disk is accessed very infrequently except when first starting an application. Upgrading an SSD isn't going to make anything faster except load times (assuming you have enough RAM), and load times for most applications are fast anyway (unless it's an Adobe product).

      If you find an SSD drastically improves performance, then perhaps you need more RAM to avoid swapping. There's probably some applications where disk performance is important, but most of these also require large amounts of space.

    11. Re:Oooh. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Define laughably. The first SSD I bought, around '94-95ish was 128KB. At the same time, my laptop had a 60MB hard disk. The hard disk was worth about £80, the SSD cost £30, so the SSD cost around 180 times as much per unit storage. The SSD had a few serious limitations. The transfer speed very slow, but most importantly it was a single cell so the only way of reclaiming space after deleting / modifying a file was to copy everything off, format it, and copy everything back.

      This generation costs around $3/GB, while a 2.5" HDD costs around $0.25/GB, meaning the SSD has gone from being 180 times as expensive to being 12 times as expensive over the past 15 years. The SSD can now handle orders of magnitude more seeks per second than the HD (which it couldn't) and a much faster linear transfer rate (which it couldn't), so it's now giving better performance than the HDD, in exchange for lower capacity and a higher price.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    12. Re:Oooh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you missed: July 2010: joined mormon church.

    13. Re:Oooh. by obarthelemy · · Score: 1

      http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/intelx25mg2perfpreview_072209165207/19505.png

      tests say sequential write = 50% faster than HD, not twice as fast. Maybe 2x faster than older SSDs, but not than HDs. Again, that's 50% when you're doing disk writes, which really is not that often. Plus those disk writes need to be "blocking", not done in the background.

      My point is that SSDs boost performance in the very rare cases where
      1- you're doing "blocking" disk IO
      2- SSD are significantly faster than HDs
      That's not a lot.

      Four your second upgrade, I'd sell my old PC, and use that + the SSD money to buy a whole new PC, sans SSD. That's what I'm doing right now.

      --
      The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    14. Re:Oooh. by obarthelemy · · Score: 1

      Try and put things in perspective. On a desktop computer, what % of the time is spent doing disk access ? Actually, what % of the time is spent doing blocking disk access, because background ones are not really noticable, fast or slow.

      Anandtech found sequential writes to be 50% faster than an HD (192 vs 120 MB/s). That's good, but not incredible, especially if your OS or HD does any kind of write caching.

      Same remark for random writes, though SSD's advantage is much larger then: small % of time spent doing that, mostly cached anyway... the low-level tests are pretty much worthless.

      Higher level tests show really negligible performance gains.

      --
      The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    15. Re:Oooh. by HitoGuy · · Score: 1

      Laughably was probably a poor word choice on my part, sorry. Impractical is a little better.

      I find most SSDs price-to-space ratio to need a little improving. Speed is nice but I much prefer space, and from what I've seen with SSD, it's way too much to get an SSD of equivalent size to, say, a 500 GiB hard disk and not break the bank. I might be wrong, but I'm sure I could buy another 500 GiB HDD for only around $90... whereas I'd be hard put to find an SSD of equal size for less than a whopping $600, which is way more than I even payed for my computer.

      --
      I am beginning to think that maybe Darl McBride was attacked viciously by a penguin as a child.
    16. Re:Oooh. by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Try and put things in perspective. On a desktop computer, what % of the time is spent doing disk access ? Actually, what % of the time is spent doing blocking disk access, because background ones are not really noticable, fast or slow.

      It isnt what % of the time is spent doing disk i/o .. On my system a low % of time is also spent rendering 3D graphics.. just the same I have a good 3D graphics card (8800GT.)

      Anandtech found sequential writes to be 50% faster than an HD (192 vs 120 MB/s).

      The only HD's that push that much write speed are also expensive. We arent talking about those $100/TB drives here, which are going to struggle with 60MB/sec sequential write. Drives like the velocirapter approach $1/GB. If you are in the market now for a high performance HD, the jump to SSD isnt as much as people make it out to be.

      Higher level tests show really negligible performance gains.

      Lets go even higher. People who actualy use their computer with these new SSD's rave about the performance. Thats real world.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    17. Re:Oooh. by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      Extrapolation: almost as good as copulation.

      Almost.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    18. Re:Oooh. by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      Hold on a sec, have you looked at the benchmarks? At all?

      The fastest hard discs on the market can only keep up on the sequential reads and writes. These are drives like the 300gb velociraptor, which is loud and costs nearly $300. Granted, it's still about 1/3 the cost of the X-25m G2, but there simply is not a faster consumer grade hard drive that you can buy if you wanted to, so capacity is not relevant if you only want to talk speed.

      Random reads and writes, which is what normally happens when you are using a computer for anything but mass data transfer, the fastest hard drives on the market are significantly slower than the slowest SSD's on the market.

      Seek times? Hello? That's the single biggest failing of HDDs, and it's the reason drive manufactureres put massive amounts of cache on the drive - to mitigate that. Even with that SSDs are in the single-digit NANOSECOND range, while HDDs are in the millisecond range.

      For the stuff that HDDs are very, very good at (large amounts of sequential reads and writes) they are close to what an SSD can do. Most people very rarely do bulk transfers of data. A few people do large data reads on a regular basis, but the HDD is not even on the same level for every-day usage.

      So, what you end up with is SSDs are quickly approaching high-end hard drives in price and capacity, and they are faster in every way. In the ways that are generally most noticeable - random reads and writes, they are currently 40-160x faster. That's a crapton, and they are only getting faster, cheaper, and bigger.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    19. Re:Oooh. by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      While that is true ATM, I doubt seriously it will be true in the future. Hell in the 90s I was just sure I would never use up the 40Gb HDD I had (still works and is sitting in a drawer BTW) while now, thanks to huge MultiGB game installs and videos I have moved up to 750Gb, and honestly would be surprised if I go past the TB barrier next year when TB drives are ultra cheap.

      We are just now getting to where 10+ MP cameras, HD videocams, and other such devices are getting so cheap that everybody and their dog has one. All of these thing require huge amount of space.While I agree completely for the mobile space, where you just don't need to carry that much with you, or in certain servers situations where I/O is king that SSD will be the standard. But I think the HDDs have gotten cheap enough, reliable enough, and more importantly huge enough to handle incredible amounts of data for pennies that they will continue to be the standard for home computing, maybe with a hybrid SSD/HDD for the best of both worlds.

      And let us be honest here-computers have gotten "super fast" for Joe and Jane user anyway. My biggest sellers right now are the bottom of the line AMD and Intel dual cores, and my customers can't quit talking about how crazy fast their machines are. The simple fact is for the kind of stuff Joe and Jane are doing both CPUs and HDDs, especially when it is backed up with a big fat pile of RAM( I build with 4Gb as minimum now) and the difference in price simply isn't worth it to them. And don't forget to Joe and Jane "more is more" and if you give them a choice of a 320Gb SSD that is fast or 2TB of HDD they are gonna go "Ohhh Big!" and go for the bigger nearly every time.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    20. Re:Oooh. by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      If you want to carry a huge load and you don't mind driving day and night for a week, you need a Semi.

      If you want to get to the end of the track as fast as possible, turn around and come back as fast as possible, what you need is a sub 7 second hot-rod.

      Who in their right mind would buy a sub 7 second Semi? That's insane! It'd also cost millions of dollars, if you could even do it. Better to just fly.

      I think my analogy went awry there somewhere. Anyway, slow, steady, big semi is the cheap HDD, great for long trips with a big load, while lighting fast hot-rod is the SSD. It can't haul as much, but man oh man is it fast! High-end HDDs are like the 15-second dodge van. Ya kinda go "Huh?".

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    21. Re:Oooh. by rockNme2349 · · Score: 1
      --
      Sewage Treatment Facilities - "Our duty is clear."
    22. Re:Oooh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      July 2005: Extrapolation not nearly as good as copulation
      July 2009: Extrapolation almost as good as copulation
      July 2014: Extrapolation much better than copulation

      Age: bites

    23. Re:Oooh. by quadrox · · Score: 1

      Your sig is quite apt right now... :D

    24. Re:Oooh. by johnsjs · · Score: 0

      just as well you aren't in Utah, or you could be in the thousands by 2021

    25. Re:Oooh. by painehope · · Score: 1

      I could make a similar extrapolation based upon my life :

      July 1999 : number of wives = 0.5 (fiancee)
      July 2000 : number of wives = 0
      July 2003 : number of wives = 0.5 (another fiancee)
      July 2005 : number of wives = 0.75 (common-law marriage)
      July 2007 : number of wives = 1
      July 2008 : number of wives = 0 (thank God!)
      July 2009 : number of wives = 0
      July 2024 : number of wives = 0 (bet your ass on that)

      On the plus side, I think the trends for SSDs will show consistent growth. Actually, on the plus side as well, the number of chicks I've been with has shown consistent yearly growth at a fixed rate of 8-24 since 1992, and based upon factors (a) I'm not monogamous nor have ever been or ever will be and (b) if it's female and has a hole and a heartbeat, it's getting nailed like cheap siding, I don't see this trend changing in the least. So let's hear it for SSDs (both Solid State Disks and Sluts Summarily Dicked)!

      --
      PC moderators can suck my White pierced, tattooed dick. If you think pride == hate, s/dick/Aryan meat mallet/g.
    26. Re:Oooh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You clearly made no attempt to read the article. You must not be new here.

  2. I've got one of the G1 Drives by CajunArson · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Fortunately I got it for only about ~$300 so I only "lost" $100 with the new ones coming out. That having been said, I don't regret the purchase at all, it is insanely faster than any other laptop drive out there, while being completely silent and power-friendly. As for TRIM support, I've heard that Intel is not going to add it for the older drives, but I'm not sure if that is just speculation or if it's been officially confirmed by Intel (Intel not expressly say the old drives are getting TRIM support is not the same as expressly denying the support). Fortunately, the drives with the newer firmware don't seem to suffer from much performance degradation, so I'm not really obsessed with TRIM anyway.

    Oh and yes, it does run Linux (Arch 64-bit to be precise) just fine.

    I can't wait for next year with the ONFI 2.1 FLASH chips (the new drives are not using the new ONFI standard yet) as well as 6Gbit SATA support. At that point I'll put together a new desktop that only uses SSDs, and turn my existing desktop into a 4TB RAID 1+0 file server to handle all the big files... the perfect balance of SATA & spinning media.

    --
    AntiFA: An abbreviation for Anti First Amendment.
    1. Re:I've got one of the G1 Drives by thms · · Score: 2

      Fortunately, the drives with the newer [non-TRIM] firmware don't seem to suffer from much performance degradation, so I'm not really obsessed with TRIM anyway.

      I wonder how they managed that without the TRIM command, i.e. without the OS telling the HD which parts can be nulled because they are not needed anymore. Did they hide more pages from the OS which are then nulled regardless to hack together something like a buffer? But that would still show terrible write performance once that overflows. Did they implement deep-data-inspection for the most common filesystems so the HD now knows when something is deleted?

      At that point I'll put together a new desktop that only uses SSDs, and turn my existing desktop into a 4TB RAID 1+0 file server to handle all the big files... the perfect balance of SATA & spinning media.

      I'm planning the same thing once the prices are right and TRIM is supported, though I'll probably keep the old spinning-platter drive local. Then we are one step back/forward to the old unix days where /bin was on the fast, and /usr/ on the slower but much bigger drive.

      As with virtualisation (ok, more mainframes than unix there), everything old is new again - can't wait to use the underrated Sys-Req key to switch between Linux and Windows instances that are virtualized by the hardware!

    2. Re:I've got one of the G1 Drives by obarthelemy · · Score: 1, Troll

      It's always fun to read bleedin' edgers rationnalize how they didn't pay over-the-top for immature first trys that soon got obsoleted.

      So, yes, you only overpaid $100 for a drive which Intel hasn't yet come out and said will never get TRIM, and is 25%+ slower than the new one. Congrats.

      I've got some oil here that will do wonder for your hair ! it is expensive, too.

      --
      The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    3. Re:I've got one of the G1 Drives by LordKronos · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm not the person you were replying to, but I too bought a X25-M 80GB back in April (though I only payed $300, so I only overpaid by $75). That said:
      1) I've enjoyed the increased performance over the last 4 months. I've done a lot of work where I've benefited from the increased performance, so I feel I've gotten at least a good portion of that $75 in the form of the value of increased productivity (I use this computer for work for my business).
      2) I've had no performance complaints from the new drive. Compared to my old drive, there are nearly zero times that I'm waiting on disk I/O anymore, so if it might be a little slower (and look at the charts in the article...it's not 25% slower) I'm not really noticing where it could be improved.
      3) Obsolete? I do not think that word means what you think it means. My G1 drive is neither "No longer in use" nor "Outmoded in design, style, or construction". It has been surpassed (very slightly) by a newer model, but if that translate to obsolete, then I guess anyone who isn't paying $1000 for a Core i7-975 CPU is also buying obsolete hardware. And of course, anyone who does buy a Core i7-975 for $1000 will promptly be mocked by you when the price drops to $900 or a new model 1/3 GHz faster comes out or something.

    4. Re:I've got one of the G1 Drives by CajunArson · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So I'm assuming you are typing your comment in from somebody else's computer, because following your impeccable logic nobody should ever buy any piece of computer technology ever because something else is going to come along and make it obsolete. I can also say that if you are not a hypocrite you'd wake up every single day and loudly thank everyone who does buy technology, because if nobody went out and paid for computers, they would not exist for you to act like a smarmy bitch on.
          I assure you that the new drive's performance is quite fine for the amount of money I paid for it, and (because I'm a lot smarter than you) I was quite aware that newer and better drives were on the horizon, but I still made my purchase and have no regrets. Since I use my laptop for work that you can't even comprehend, I know I'm getting the value out of it that I put into it, making it a fair deal.

      --
      AntiFA: An abbreviation for Anti First Amendment.
    5. Re:I've got one of the G1 Drives by obarthelemy · · Score: 1

      To me, Trim-less, and at least 25% slower is obsolete. That would be "design".

      I'm happy for you if you think you got your money's worth. After much reading, I finally decided not to get one for the new PC I just ordered.

      --
      The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    6. Re:I've got one of the G1 Drives by obarthelemy · · Score: 0, Troll

      I'll leave the "bitching" (sic) and cheap epithets to you (does that say something about the type of people who fell for SSDs, or not ?)

      You don't seem to make a difference between having a computer or not, and having game levels and comparable stuff happen 25% faster, for the 1% of the time your PC is doing that. Let me assure you: there is one.

      You seem to imply you're smarter than me because, like me, you knew faster SSDs were coming. Can you please explain your (obviously very smart) logic ? Also, you may be surprised at how well I can comprehend your work, whatever that is. I hope for you it involves a lot of cheap bitching ?

      --
      The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    7. Re:I've got one of the G1 Drives by thekod · · Score: 1

      I do not think that word means what you think it means.

      Inconceivable!

    8. Re:I've got one of the G1 Drives by LordKronos · · Score: 1

      To me, Trim-less, and at least 25% slower is obsolete.

      Again, it is not 25% slower. Most of the tests show 10% at most. Then again, if you are going to compare it to any other drive (you know, other then the drive that was announced only 2 days ago and can't actually be bought from any retailer yet), even the old "slow" model was leaps and bounds above any traditional hard drive on the market for the majority of tasks performed by most users.

    9. Re:I've got one of the G1 Drives by Twinbee · · Score: 1

      People like you who are hot on the heels of new technology - we owe you a "thanks". Otherwise, new tech would never get off the ground (same with the Sony OLED TV - super expensive, but I'm grateful to all the people who can afford to buy (and in some sense) 'test' it.

      --
      Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
    10. Re:I've got one of the G1 Drives by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The ONFI interface version is basically invisible to the end-user. It's just an industry standard, and not all cutting-edge features will be implemented, depending on the manufacturer.

  3. Good move by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 3, Funny

    Getting the prices lower is definitely a move in the right direction. I'm looking forward to moving to SSD in the near future, and not having to worry about hard drive crashes anymore.

    --
    You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
    1. Re:Good move by Itninja · · Score: 1

      ...not having to worry about hard drive crashes anymore

      God, I hope you are never in the IS department at my company. Or any company for that matter.

      --
      I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
    2. Re:Good move by Onymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      You mean it may be naive to expect zero failures with the new drives?

      I wouldn't be surprised if the failure profile between moving-parts devices and solid state devices were radically different.

    3. Re:Good move by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      Perhaps, but that wouldn't support the current notion of forced obsolescence.

      My suspicion is that they are of an equivalent quality level, and nothing greater than that.

    4. Re:Good move by Onymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      I can understand the economic benefit of planned obsolescence (from the producer's perspective), so I see what you're saying there.

      Still, I think we've got a paradigm shift going on. And I think that'll mean a big change in reliability levels. I'm interested in seeing what we'll really be getting as far as failure modes. I'm guessing abrupt, total failure will be extremely rare within warranty periods, but that gradual performance loss (depending on usage profile) will be how these things will wear out. But, really, I have no idea and am just talking out my ass.

  4. the era of the SSD is here by MagicMerlin · · Score: 4, Interesting

    While hard drives will continue to live on for a good while yet where $/GB considerations are paramount (especially archival type applications), the performance advantages of flash drives will soon trump the decreasing cost advantage both for workstation (x25-m) and server (x25-e) environments. The case for flash in servers is even more compelling, where we measure drives in terms of IOPS and a single Intel flash drive performs 10 or 20 times better than the best hard drives on the market for a fraction of the power consumption. Understandably, many IT managers are cautious about adopting new technologies, especially when the failure characteristics are not completely known, but I suspect the advantages are so great that minds are going to start changing, quickly.

    1. Re:the era of the SSD is here by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      I'd love to see a RAID5 array of SSDs in a Dell PowerEdge 2950. I'm willing to bet a few of these drives alone would saturate the bandwidth on a PERC 6i controller.

      Sweet.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    2. Re:the era of the SSD is here by afidel · · Score: 1

      The x-25e is great, and I use it in a few situations, but at 8x the cost per GB of 15k FC I'm not moving to it wholesale. It's true that for $10K I could get as many IOPS as my $200K EVA, but it would only have the storage of a single drive in the array.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    3. Re:the era of the SSD is here by afidel · · Score: 1

      I bet one drive could saturate the PERC 6i, I know it can saturate the HP P400 no problem. In fact I got about 2x the 4k random write IOPS when I used it in a workstation with Intel ICH as I did when it was connected to the P400.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    4. Re:the era of the SSD is here by Fweeky · · Score: 1

      I've tried an X25-M on a few servers with LSI SAS controllers (as used by PERC 6i, though I don't think I've used that exact chip) and been disappointed to encounter IO hangs and other drives disappearing randomly; even just having an X25-M plugged in is enough to seemingly make the controller rather unhappy. Doesn't appear to be a driver problem, unless it's one shared by FreeBSD, Linux and Solaris.

      Hopefully Intel will do an SAS version at some point; they could compete against 15kRPM drives rather well, I think.

    5. Re:the era of the SSD is here by obarthelemy · · Score: 1

      Because everyone knows how Ferraris have made trucks redundant so quickly !

      --
      The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    6. Re:the era of the SSD is here by MagicMerlin · · Score: 1

      The x-25e is great, and I use it in a few situations, but at 8x the cost per GB of 15k FC I'm not moving to it wholesale. It's true that for $10K I could get as many IOPS as my $200K EVA, but it would only have the storage of a single drive in the array.

      ...for 5% of the price, and trivially built without proprietary protocols, hardware, or software support. Let's compare apples to apples, and spend 200k on some sas sata enclosures. good raid cards, and intel x25-e, and see who is kicking whose ass. many, many databases are iops bound, not storage bound (or they would be stuffed with dense sata drives). Now, I can't blame you for not doing that _today_, but it should be patently clear that flash is the future of enterprise databases (as a bonus, you get a huge reduction in power consumption!).

    7. Re:the era of the SSD is here by afidel · · Score: 1

      Watt/IOP they crush HDD, Watt/GB the opposite is true. I use my SAN for a heck of a lot more than just database so I need a much more balanced approach. I have VM's, email, bulk file storage, content management, and various drives from application servers all mounted in the same array. If you're big enough to have arrays dedicated to just database then for sure SSD's are the future for that niche, but I doubt that's more than 25% of the SAN market.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    8. Re:the era of the SSD is here by LordKronos · · Score: 1

      Watt/GB the opposite is true.

      Actually, not true. The 80GB X25-M uses 0.15 watts at load. That's 0.001875 watt/GB. Scaling up to 2TB, you are talking about 3.7 watts total under load. At idle, the X25-M is 0.06 watts. That's 0.00075 watt/GB, or 1.5 watt at for 2TB. I don't know if any magnetic hard drive can match that, much less a 2TB model.

      Then again, it's a silly comparison at the moment, since your electric cost per kwh would have to be insane before you'd recover the price difference of the drive itself in any meaningful timeframe.

    9. Re:the era of the SSD is here by bennomatic · · Score: 1

      I'm interested in seeing hybrid drives, say, in a laptop form factor, with 50% of the storage on flash media and 50% on platters. If the system is smart and can move write-once-read-often data to the flash partition, and can keep oft-changing files on the platters, that'd be awesome.

      Put my OS on SSD for super-fast booting. Put my photo library for fast browsing, but if I start editing a picture, put the edit data on the platters until I'm done. I'm sure some of the decision-making could be done by the drive itself, although the OS or applications could also help with metadata flags. Heck, there could even be an option for user override if necessary...

      --
      The CB App. What's your 20?
    10. Re:the era of the SSD is here by bennomatic · · Score: 1

      Not redundant. Obsolete.

      --
      The CB App. What's your 20?
    11. Re:the era of the SSD is here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My grandma could saturate the bandwidth of a PERC controller. Please tell me you don't run databases on Dell boxes...

    12. Re:the era of the SSD is here by rcw-home · · Score: 1

      I've tried an X25-M on a few servers with LSI SAS controllers (as used by PERC 6i, though I don't think I've used that exact chip) and been disappointed to encounter IO hangs

      I've seen the same with X25-Ms using the onboard RAID on Intel S5000 server boards (which use an LSI SAS controller). Putting in a 3ware 9650 fixes it (There are probably lots of other controllers that would do a good job too).

      Hopefully Intel will do an SAS version at some point; they could compete against 15kRPM drives rather well, I think.

      Once you get it working on a decent controller, you'll forget all about 15krpm drives (and SAS) entirely.

    13. Re:the era of the SSD is here by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      I wonder why anyone would want to make a RAID5 out of SSD drives. Or even a RAID1. I can imagine a RAID0 to couple drives as it makes partitioning more flexible, but not more than that.

      Why I think so? Failure mode and performance. As many other posters pointed out: a traditional hard drive will fail catastrophically, and totally. It simply suddenly becomes completely unreadable. In such a case a RAID1 or RAID5 can be your lifeline, as the data is still recoverable from another unit. However SSD drives tend to fail bit-by-bit, literally. A bit (sector?) fails, usually upon write, failure is easily detected and that sector can be marked bad and the data written elsewhere. There will be no catastrophic disk failures, making redundancy far less important. Speed improvements will also be very small due to the negligible seek times compared to platters.

      The only reason to use RAID5 I guess would be the hot swapping of drives, but then there may be better solutions for that issue when using SSD drives.

    14. Re:the era of the SSD is here by edmudama · · Score: 1

      It's been tried, and it's basically too expensive as a single device... today's hybrid drives can't afford enough flash (or fit it on their boards) to be very fast, and it complicates manufacturing immensely.

      The solution is motherboards with more SATA ports (original ICH6 had two, now we see 6-8 SATA ports on normal consumer motherboards) so you can have one of each, an SSD and a rotating drive, each manufactured in the most efficient way possible.

      Further, SSDs have evolved enough that you really don't need to worry about wearing out the devices in all but the most extreme workloads.

      ZFS will even manage your desired hierarchy automatically by attaching an SSD as a cache device to a zpool, keeping frequently read content in the cache device and flushing periodically any changes through to the rotating media.

      --
      More data, damnit!
    15. Re:the era of the SSD is here by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      In my experience, HDD failures half the time is due to mechanical failure or from a faulty controller chipset (PCB mounted on the drive). SSD drives also contain a controller chipset as well which poses to be the weakest link. The MTBF rating on any storage medium is useless to me if the data has been rendered inaccessible. So because of this risk, I would never build a server using RAID-0 with SSDs. Again, not because of the flash storage, but because of its controller chipset.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    16. Re:the era of the SSD is here by MagicMerlin · · Score: 1

      This is a bigger deal at the datacenter -- many datacenters are power limited and are trying very hard to get people to reduce power consumption. 15k drives draw 10-15 watts usually, and if you have to by 200 of them to get the 50k iops your database needs, we are talking serious power now.

    17. Re:the era of the SSD is here by WuphonsReach · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, for my laptop, I would find even a 300GB drive to be too small (I run a 500GB 2.5" drive). So, a few more years until the drives get big enough and inexpensive enough (I'd pay $400-$500 for something of a decent size).

      But for server-side, an array of these units in a RAID-6 setup could be very sweet. The question is whether you can find a server case that lets you hot-swap 2.5" drives.

      --
      Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
  5. Faster, Cheaper, Better by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1

    Having gotten 2 out of 3, does Intel make a trifecta here, or is there some lurking downside (e.g. limited write cycles etc.)?

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    1. Re:Faster, Cheaper, Better by maxume · · Score: 1

      You mean the drives are faster and better, right?

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:Faster, Cheaper, Better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We're only talking about shrinking IC logic. Every generation of a processor is faster, cheaper, better than the launch of the previous model.

    3. Re:Faster, Cheaper, Better by guruevi · · Score: 1

      There is a lurking downside. As was explained by other researchers and often ignored by advocates (and conveniently the industry) - the drives become significantly slower over time requiring something similar to a defrag but at a much lower level. The good thing is that the things will still be (slightly) faster than a regular hard drive however how is a vendor going to tell his customer that after two years his performance will drop significantly. If I notice a drop in my current storage throughput, there is something wrong which I need to fix.

      Also, a lot of the vendors and a lot more benchmarks that don't have a clue about proper testing of these caveats will report much higher rates because they are testing a virgin product while a customer will be expecting a certain level throughout the life of the product (eg. when streaming/editing live video).

      At this point, spinning drives are plenty fast in most high-profile configurations. You put 16 (or more) 15k drives in an enclosure over RAID-5 and the delay of the heads searching for data nor the throughput of the drive is really an issue, the issues start to crop up at higher levels where the software has to do it's work.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  6. $3 per GB by tepples · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The last page of the review states that these should cost you roughly $3 per GB. Whether that's "laughably expensive" depends on what you want to do with the drive.

  7. AnandTech writeup by tab_b · · Score: 5, Informative

    AnandTech has a nice writeup too. If the price curve drops like the first-gen X-25M we should all be happy pretty soon.

    1. Re:AnandTech writeup by hattig · · Score: 1

      I think the next generation 80GB, as a boot and apps drive, could be very compelling, if the price is right. You could probably get dual-boot Windows and Linux in 80GB, for the OS and apps for each. /home and /Users will have to be on the big dumb slow disc.

    2. Re:AnandTech writeup by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    3. Re:AnandTech writeup by Spoke · · Score: 1

      I suspect we'll see the 2nd gen X-25M launch at prices similar to the current X-25M, and then drop down to the $225/80GB that you can get them in 1,000 unit quantities over the next couple months.

      The competition for these Intel drives is at least 2-3x behind in random IOPs. Too bad the streaming write performance didn't go up significantly, because that's the only place where the Intel drives lag behind their competition.

    4. Re:AnandTech writeup by LordKronos · · Score: 1

      I suspect we'll see the 2nd gen X-25M launch at prices similar to the current X-25M, and then drop down to the $225/80GB that you can get them in 1,000 unit quantities over the next couple months.

      Although they aren't yet in stock, zipzoomfly is already listing the price at $223.25 (though you can't preorder).

      Too bad the streaming write performance didn't go up significantly, because that's the only place where the Intel drives lag behind their competition.

      Actually, for the G1 versions, the enterprise version (X25-E) was almost even with the OCZ vertex on streaming writes. The X25-M model fell behind by about 2-3x. However, one of the reviews (don't recall which site) did some investigation of various scenarios, the drive shows some curious performance stats that strongly indicated the X25-M was intentionally capped at 80GB (presumably to give additional justification for the higher price X25-E). So it's likely not that these drives are slower, but that Intel is betting that the decreased performance for sequential access is not a strong enough selling point for most users to give their competition a significant advantage. That may or may not be true when selling to the average user (who isn't often informed and thus wowed by large numbers), but to someone who is informed I suspect they are correct (most users won't be nearly as affected by the competitions faster sequential access as they will be by Intel's faster random access.

    5. Re:AnandTech writeup by Spoke · · Score: 1

      Although they aren't yet in stock, zipzoomfly is already listing the price at $223.25 (though you can't preorder).

      Nice! If they actually end up selling at that price at launch, I will be impressed.

      I have a Vertex and while the performance has been great, it doesn't seem to be very mature compared to regular disks.

      For example, I've personally had these problems with it:

      1. Firmware flash tool doesn't work on all computers. Have to remove it and move it to another computer to flash it.
      2. Have seen the drive lock up and basically disappear a couple of times now. Have to power down and up to recover.

      I've never seen those types of issues with any other regular IDE/SATA drive (though I guess Seagate did have a few problems with some of their drives a little while ago), and I wouldn't expect the Intel drive to have those issues.

      Had the Intel been available for only slightly more when I got mine, I would have opted for the Intel over the Vertex. If OCZ/Indilinx isn't able to resolve these problems, I will likely stay away from them in the future.

  8. Nice price drop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'd thought about getting an Intel SSD previously, but couldn't quite afford it. At these lower prices, I'm gonna have to grab one at some point.

  9. the era of the SSD is not far away. by slack_justyb · · Score: 2, Interesting

    While SSD may be the new kid on the block and show signs of superiority. Hard drives retain a bit of advantage over their non-moving, solid state counter parts. Hard drives can take more write overs than SSD. Flushing the cache to the actual media is still faster on HDD than SSD. SSDs are still very susceptible to static discharge versus HDD due to more surface area having sensitive parts.

    I do agree with the parent. SSD are a big thing and they have some important advantages. However, let's not go putting the cart in front of the horse and say that the era of SSD is here upon us. Cost, durability, performance, and longevity are some important areas where SSD needs improvements. In some departments of each of those categories SSD wins hands down. But SSD doesn't win enough in those areas to justify the incredibly high price of the drive. So it is a bit premature to start waving the banners right now.

    1. Re:the era of the SSD is not far away. by LordKronos · · Score: 1

      SSDs are still very susceptible to static discharge versus HDD due to more surface area having sensitive parts.

      Well actually, my X25-M drive has no circuitry exposed other than the sata and power connectors. Everything else is completely enclosed, so unless the case is likely to transmit enough of the charge to the circuitry (I have no idea whether or not it would), SSD's should be LESS susceptible to that problem.

      And while you are examining the downsides of SSDs, it's also fair to say that data recovery from a damaged SSD is likely to be more problematic. I'm not sure what the feasibility of data recovery is, but at the very least, it's probably fair to say that there are currently fewer companies that can do it, and they surely have a lot less experience.

    2. Re:the era of the SSD is not far away. by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      But SSD doesn't win enough in those areas to justify the incredibly high price of the drive. So it is a bit premature to start waving the banners right now.

      As with all new technologies, it is a matter of supply and demand. SSD only just a few years ago reached critical mass: this is when Apple started to equip ipods with them, and Asus got the runaway success with the SSD based EEE-PC. That were only 4 GB or 8 GB drives, now we're already talking about 160 GB drives at prices that are affordable for most people. Yes they are more expensive than the platter based ones, but they are affordable. And that is a big thing. When your 80 GB SSD drive has to cost you USD 2,000 it is not affordable. Now it is only about USD 300. And 160 GB is more than enough storage for all but the craziest movie buff.

      iPods and EEEPCs led the charge. They caused the volume of SSD drives to skyrocket, making per-unit manufacturing much cheaper, and boosting research and investment in the area. And that is what was needed. Now we start seeing bigger ones in laptops, and in the high end I expect the SSD will quickly push out the HD. The low end will follow soon after.

      I think the era of the SSD is there already. They are widely deployed, not yet as proven as HD tech but getting there really fast, and have great advantages. At this rate cost difference will get smaller and smaller really fast, especially if they start selling smaller drives. I'd love to be able to get cheap 10-20 GB drives for my work stations that only have the OS and applications installed. They have now 120 GB drives, the smallest the shop had in stock. And SSD price vs size will scale almost linearly as bigger size means mainly more flash chips on board.

      I'm really convinced SSD has reached critical mass already, prices are falling very fast, and may even start to fall faster with increasing sales volume due to the lower prices. The era of SSD is there, absolutely. HD will remain the choice for large storage deployment for a while to come for sure, but for the smaller and medium sizes SSD is the way to go.

  10. I have a G1 Intel X-25M by ironwill96 · · Score: 5, Informative

    ..and it is fantastic. This was the largest performance increase i've seen on computers in over a decade. I was going to go with a Velociraptor because I knew how important drive access latency was but then Intel patched the fragmentation issue that was worrying me.

    I got mounting rails to fit the drive into my desktop case so i'm using it as my primary desktop drive for OS, some applications (Adobe Design Premium Suite runs great on it! Photoshop CS4 loads in 3-4 seconds!), and my main games. I then have a 1.5 TB secondary drive to store my data and music collection etc. I paid around $430 for my 80GB Intel X25-M so being able to get the 160GB for that same price is a fantastic improvement. I will definitely only be going SSD in my machines from now on. Everything loads faster, I get consistently fast boot times even after months of usage.

    It is amazing to see Windows XP load up and then all of the system tray apps pop up in a few seconds. You can immediately start loading things like e-mail and Firefox as soon as the desktop appears and there is no discernible lag on first load like you will get with SATA drives since they are still trying to load system tray applications.

    --
    "To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson
    1. Re:I have a G1 Intel X-25M by Freetardo+Jones · · Score: 0, Redundant

      and there is no discernible lag on first load like you will get with SATA drives since they are still trying to load system tray applications.

      Protip: Intel's SSDs are also "SATA drives".

      From here

      Intel Mainstream Solid-State Drives are available in either 2.5in (Intel X25-M Mainstream SATA Solid-State Drive) or 1.8in (Intel X18-M Mainstream SATA Solid-State Drive) standard hard drive form factors.

      The term you meant was hard disk drive (or HDD) not the name of the connector interface (SATA).

    2. Re:I have a G1 Intel X-25M by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Protip: Intel's SSDs are also "SATA drives".

      Man, you really must be the life of the party. Remind me to invite you to my next one!

    3. Re:I have a G1 Intel X-25M by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      And here I thought I was the only one who wanted to reply that way...

  11. I'm not excited about the era of SSDs... by BlueKitties · · Score: 1

    I'm excited about the end of the tiny-primary-memory era. One of these days, maybe the line between primary and secondary storage will shrink.

    --
    "Sorrow is better than laughter, for by sadness of face the heart is made glad." [Ecclesiastes 7:3]
    1. Re:I'm not excited about the era of SSDs... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and when you're content the next generation of kids will be complaining about how much slower RAM is than L1 and L2 cache.

  12. reliability? by Goffee71 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How can reviewers be impressed by reliability when they've only had the units for, at most, a year? When these things hit the five-year mark running perfectly well with no data loss in the home/work environment, then I'll be interested.

    Ok, they may have been stress tested in factories by the manufacturers, but reviewers don't do that sort of work.

    --
    If he's the Walrus then can I be a penguin please?
    1. Re:reliability? by sshir · · Score: 1

      The troubling aspect of it all is that SSD's controller is a kind of a black box.
      As a result, reliability is application specific! Much more so than regular spinning drives.
      And I'm not talking about "flash cell rewrite limit". The thing is, the controller uses undisclosed/patented/whatever algorithms to place your writes at particular addresses on flash. They need to be tricky because of 4k_write/512k_erase problem of the flash technology.
      So if you do a "right" combination of small and large writes you will drive controller nuts, into "failsafe mode" with absolutely abysmal performance characteristics afterward (as been already demonstrated).

      I personally would prefer a simple, stupid device, for which a "flash aware" file system could be created and used with minimum surprise occurrence.

    2. Re:reliability? by Randle_Revar · · Score: 1

      Most of my HDDs (Maxtor, WD, Seagate) over the past ten years have not lasted more than 2 or 3 years... My last system drive (WD 320GB) died after ~6 months - Just finished the RMA a few weeks ago.

    3. Re:reliability? by owlstead · · Score: 1

      Oh, and you know all the algorithms that are on your hard drive controller out of the top of your head, do you? Or those on your motherboard? Or your OS? Or the applications you run on them? Especially with Intel, I do trust the market place to have some influence in them testing their drives really well before supplying them to customers. If these drives start failing in large numbers they'll have serious problems.

    4. Re:reliability? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Me too. That's why I personally audited the command queueing, bad sector replacement, error checking, and head positioning algorithms in my mechanical disk.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    5. Re:reliability? by AllynM · · Score: 5, Informative

      My personal X25-M (the one that started all of my reviews and Intel's subsequent patching of the fragmentation slowdown issue with the X25-M series), has had over 10 TB of data written to it. Most of those were sequential writes spanning the entire drive (HDTach RW passes). SMART attribute 5 on that drive is currently sitting at a whopping "2". That equates to only 8 bad flash blocks. It's actually been sitting ag 2 for a while now, so those blocks were likely early defects.

      I suspect it will take most users *way* over a year to write greater than 10 TB to their 80 GB OS drive. Considering mine is still going strong after that much data written, I don't think there's anything to worry about.

      Allyn Malventano
      Storage Editor, PC Perspective

      --
      this sig was brought to you by the letter /.
  13. Compared to rotating media... by clawsoon · · Score: 2, Interesting
    If you can get a regular hard drive to the five year mark running perfectly well with no data loss, you can consider yourself moderately lucky. Rotating media is what RAID was invented for.

    All you'd need to do to demonstrate to me the greater reliability of an SSD is drop it and a regular hard drive onto the table a couple of times while they're running and see which one keeps running. That would be enough to get me impressed by increased reliability. Regular hard drives are delicate beasts.

    1. Re:Compared to rotating media... by Freetardo+Jones · · Score: 1

      If you can get a regular hard drive to the five year mark running perfectly well with no data loss, you can consider yourself moderately lucky.

      There's nothing lucky about it. Unless you are just straining the drive constantly or don't have any adequate ventilation in your box, an HDD lasting 5 years if not longer is a pretty mundane thing for quite some time.

    2. Re:Compared to rotating media... by David+Gerard · · Score: 1

      Having recently come from a job supervising two rows of racks of servers, the hard disk failure rate seemed to match well with a 3 year expected lifetime.

      --
      http://rocknerd.co.uk
    3. Re:Compared to rotating media... by Freetardo+Jones · · Score: 1

      Well drives in servers are also put through far more strain than a home desktop so their failure rate would be expected to be earlier than a 5 year mark for a consumer drive in a home PC.

    4. Re:Compared to rotating media... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Server hdds also tend to spin faster than 5400/7200 rpm. It stands to reason this affects their mtbf.

    5. Re:Compared to rotating media... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Leaving it on the desk and not using it?

    6. Re:Compared to rotating media... by dfghjk · · Score: 1

      "Rotating media is what RAID was invented for."

      Poor grammar aside, you need an education on what RAID was really developed to address.

    7. Re:Compared to rotating media... by clawsoon · · Score: 1

      Fair enough; RAID was, indeed, developed to deal with (as Wikipedia puts it) "low-cost and less reliable PC-class disk-drive components" rather than any and all rotating media.

      However, even with more expensive rotating media, it now enjoys near-universal use whenever data is critical. Notice the common thread: Rotating media. RAID is hardly used outside of rotating media, and almost universally used with it whenever two or more are gathered together in the name of storing data.

      And I salute you for making a grammar correction without making a mistake of your own. You still won't get me to be a fuddy-duddy and use "media" with a plural verb, though.

  14. What luck has to do with it by clawsoon · · Score: 1

    You may not be extremely lucky to get a regular HDD to the 5 year mark, but you are moderately lucky. Lucky enough that I would recommend regular backups rather than depend on your luck with the hard drive.

    Wouldn't you?

    1. Re:What luck has to do with it by Freetardo+Jones · · Score: 1

      Lucky enough that I would recommend regular backups rather than depend on your luck with the hard drive.

      Wouldn't you?

      Based entirely on my own experience and that of those around me? No, not really. For extremely critical information, sure, but I don't really bother backing anything up as it's pretty much all replaceable and I've never really had a hard drive fail before the 5 year mark. By the time I've ever had a drive fail it's been probably 8-10 years old and is storing nothing of extreme value anyway so anything that may get lost is easily replaced.

    2. Re:What luck has to do with it by clawsoon · · Score: 1

      Ah. My experience is mostly as a sysadmin storing other people's data. It's no wonder we have very different views on hard drive reliability.

    3. Re:What luck has to do with it by Freetardo+Jones · · Score: 1

      Considering this topic is about consumer SSDs I figured we were talking about home desktops. Of course in a business environment you would back things up because it is critical information and as I said in my post:

      For extremely critical information, sure,

    4. Re:What luck has to do with it by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      I've not always held on to a single hard drive for 5 years, but I've never had a desktop hard drive fail on me, ever. I've probably owned 20 different drives over the past 15 years.

      I have had exactly one laptop drive fail, but that was almost certainly due to having the laptop fall off the passenger seat repeatedly while using it for GPS.

    5. Re:What luck has to do with it by clawsoon · · Score: 1

      That laptop you kept dropping is exactly where you could've used the increased reliability of an SSD.

      Just sayin'...

  15. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1

    I won't be settling for anything but a SSD. The benefits are just to great to ignore.

    As long as they don't wear out in months, instead of years. I'm still leery of just how quickly you can start killing one of these when it's hosting the swap file. And I have yet to hear data on just how many R/W cycles 34nm cells are good for yet.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  16. Would You Run DeFrag on an SSD? by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1

    Would you run DeFrag on an SSD like you do on an HD? After all, sequential reads are still sequential reads.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    1. Re:Would You Run DeFrag on an SSD? by Frenchman113 · · Score: 1

      Except that SSDs randomly relocate data and doing a software defragment doesn't make files any more contiguous.

    2. Re:Would You Run DeFrag on an SSD? by compro01 · · Score: 1

      AFAICT, sequential vs. random loses its meaning with SSDs. The access time to any arbitrary block is equal, regardless of whether it's right next to the current one or on a different chip on the other end of the board.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    3. Re:Would You Run DeFrag on an SSD? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      You get a small savings if the OS does not have to issue a bunch of small commands to get the fragments but can issue one larger command on the SATA bus.

      Also defraging them can possibly put them into contiguous blocks as many defragmenters move the whole file around anyway.

      The improvement is not quite as dramatic as doing it to a 10 year old system that has a nearly full drive and its never been defragmented. But there is a measurable difference.

      If you value your data a defragment also may not hurt either. As having a 'contig' blob of data many times makes it easier to recover your data.

      Am I saying defragment it all the time? No. Every couple of months probably would not be out of the question though. Not as necessary as used to be, but useful...

    4. Re:Would You Run DeFrag on an SSD? by sshir · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, surprisingly, you do need to run a kind of defragmentation.
      Just not the usual one.
      That's because writing in flash is in pages (4k?) but erase can be done only in blocks of 512k. So what happens is that controller have to do some insane job of joggling your writes and rewrites to spread or combine or whatever... on the fly...
      As a result, after intensive use, the address space become fragmented, just like memory heap in regular software after lots of allocations/deletions.
      Currently, the only way to restore performance is to issue low level format command - secure erase or some such.
      I think AnandTech wrote a big piece on it.

      The TRIM thing will help to delay (or even eliminate) the need for such drastic measures.

    5. Re:Would You Run DeFrag on an SSD? by PotatoFarmer · · Score: 1

      Not only that, but there's no way a standard defrag program would be able to tell where data is physically located with a SSD. Block addresses are mapped by the controller to actual locations because wear-leveling needs to be able to move data behind the scenes. This is transparent to the OS; the disk will still report back the same data for a given logical block address, but said data can be physically located anywhere.

    6. Re:Would You Run DeFrag on an SSD? by Like2Byte · · Score: 1

      Any kind of memory can be become fragmented after some time in use. Defragging in the traditional sense may not be as necessary (as before) as the memory addressing scheme is much faster than before and, therefore, read operations for address spaces far apart are not going to be a problem. I mean, what's the difference if the next segment of code/data is FFFFFFFF away from the last address? Nothing! There are no heads to move from location 'X' to location 'Y' therefore, the throughput is sustained. Traditional HDs need time to seek to the position and are thus slowed.

      I would think, though, with just about any machine that had power interrupted during some kind of disk access would cause some fragmentation from time to time - among other things.

      Necessary? No.
      Reasonable to perform? On sparse occasions, sure. Why not?

    7. Re:Would You Run DeFrag on an SSD? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd use a proper filesystem.

    8. Re:Would You Run DeFrag on an SSD? by owlstead · · Score: 1

      There seem to be some defragmentation applications that say they can change some of the characteristics of the writing. I would be very wary of using these kind of applications - it's uncertain that they'll do any good.

      For the Vertex drive there is an application that can perform the TRIM command for unused sectors. It's quite new so I would look up if it fits your OS - and only if there is no native TRIM support in the OS of course.

      For these kind of Intel drives (especially the latest): unless you do very very heavy writes, just ignore the issue (see the reviews - write is at a constant 80 MB/s).

      Otherwise, e.g. for heavy use DB applications, ghost to that 1 GB green hard drive, use a SATA command to clear the drive and ghost the stuff back in. You'll probably manage at least 60 MB/s doing that, so in total it would be something like 2 hours to do this - for a 160 GB drive (and so no time at all for a vertex 30 GB drive, come to think of it).

    9. Re:Would You Run DeFrag on an SSD? by fiontan · · Score: 1

      Sequential reads are certainly sequential reads, but that might not mean exactly what you think it means. In a spinning disk HDD, a sequential read means move the head to the correct location, and then stream the data as the disk spins under the head. This is roughly as fast as it gets with spinning media, ignoring cache etc. In a SSD, you can actually benefit from parallelisation. SSDs can (if supported by the controller) read simultaneously from different chips, which means either reading the file in a number of parallel sequential reads simultaneously, or being able to satisfy multiple read requests simultaneously, as long as they are stored in different memory chips. So defragmentation in the classical sense may not actually be a desirable goal in the new world order.

  17. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by JCSoRocks · · Score: 1

    They have wear leveling algorithms. Enterprises wouldn't be buying these if they didn't work.
    If you're really that worried about it just throw a velociraptor or something in your machine and put your swap file on that and use the SSD for everything else.

    --
    You are using English. Please learn the difference between loose and lose; they're, there, and their; your and you're.
  18. Nice if they would sell them. by DAldredge · · Score: 0, Redundant

    When will you actually be able to buy one?

    1. Re:Nice if they would sell them. by Kneo24 · · Score: 1

      TFA says next week. Try reading it some time.

    2. Re:Nice if they would sell them. by DAldredge · · Score: 1

      I ordered one yesterday. Guess you and the article got it wrong.

    3. Re:Nice if they would sell them. by Kneo24 · · Score: 1

      I got nothing wrong. The article claims that the estimated date is next week, but it also did say that there were a couple of places selling them now.

      In any case, it only goes to show that you are a trolling fuckwad. Honestly, why would you ask a question when you would actually be able to buy one if you go to order one on the same day? Seems to me you could have answered your own question without asking it, and without the fucking snide remark that you gave in return.

    4. Re:Nice if they would sell them. by DAldredge · · Score: 1

      They became available after I asked my question. They also sold out very quickly when they did become available. But I do have to ask was it really necessary to be such a complete and total jerk?

    5. Re:Nice if they would sell them. by Kneo24 · · Score: 1

      Well I have to ask, was it really necessary for you to act like a trolling fuckwad?

  19. This post reads like it was written by Intel by freedan · · Score: 1

    marketing. WTF?

  20. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by LordKronos · · Score: 5, Informative

    This has been covered many times. It's a good number. I can't recall the article, but basically if you write 20GB per day, you'll get more than 5 years out of it thanks to wear leveling and extra space (SSDs actually have more capacity than they make available to you). Now, you might scoff at that but:
    1) 20GB/day is a lot for the typical user.
    2) People who routinely do more than 20GB/day probably need a lot more storage than SSDs currently provide (you are talking about filling the drive in 4 days) so you probably won't be using an SSD for those purposes anyway
    3) People who buy into SSDs at this point in time are typically more on the cutting edge, and are likely no have moved on before the drive wears out.
    4) When the drive finally does start having problems, my understanding is that it won't just fail and you'll have lost data. The failure should happen on write, and if it fails to write that will be detectable. If it writes successfully, then it should be readable. If it does fail, I believe that part will just be marked inaccessible and the data will be written somewhere else. The drive should (again, as far as I know) provide details of the failure to SMART and other disk utilities, so the problem can be detected before it progresses to a critical stage. This is much better than magnetic media, where the typical failure is that you go to read data and it is suddenly inaccessible.

    Of course, this is all just what I've read about previous generations. I have no data about the 34nm, but I have no reason to suspect it's any worse.

    PS. If you want to know how much you currently write to disk and you run a linux system, check out /proc/diskstats. The 10th column should be number of sectors written. Each sector is 512 bytes, so take value*512/1024/1024/1024 and you'll get the number of GB each device has written since bootup.

  21. More cheap now? by TheDarkMaster · · Score: 1

    For me, the biggest problem from SSD is the price (on Brazil, you pay two to three times the US price) and off course, the write cicles limit too. But, if they can be cheaper, maybe now I can consider a SSD to "system" partition.

    --
    Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
  22. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by Fweeky · · Score: 1

    Intel rated the first generation X25-M's at 100GB/day for 5 years, I'd be surprised if these were significantly worse.

  23. No Battery? by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    These SSDs contain a RAM cache that's powered by the host PC IO bus. Why don't they have a battery in the SSD? The OS thinks that everything ACKed as sent to the storage unit is written, but a power failure kills the cache before it's flushed. A little battery charged off the host PC IO bus would make these drives even more reliable than spinning discs.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

    1. Re:No Battery? by RoboRay · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think the UPS will cover that.

    2. Re:No Battery? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They don't have batteries because it would throw the environmental footprint and toxic compounds testing straight into the gutter. Battery-backed hard disk in an apple notebook? Not in this decade. I have ROMB-batteries for many of my servers in the data center... only about half made it to the 2-year mark, and less than half the remainder will make it to year-4.

      And all of that is besides the fact of wanting to make hard disks *cooler*. Charging an embedded battery all the time generates heat, which has to go somewhere... (oh, and heat helps degrade circuit pathing faster too)

    3. Re:No Battery? by Carl+Drougge · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I suspect they have a capacitor large enough to finish committing their buffers. At least they seem to see little performance degradation with write barriers, and do retain all the files they should when I pull the power while writing. (I didn't do a proper test, but it seems to work correctly, assuming your OS does.)

      (And for the record, any OS that still thinks anything the HD acks is written is living in a dream world, it hasn't been true for 15 years on consumer disks.)

    4. Re:No Battery? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Most mechanical disks also have a RAM cache which is not backed by a battery and have the same limitation.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    5. Re:No Battery? by owlstead · · Score: 1

      Because if the PC itself does not have time to properly shut down, your data will be cut in half anyway. A proper journaling FS would take care of any FS problems at least. The only thing you would gain is 32 MB of data saved. But if that data would be the start of a file write instead of a read, you might be off worse. You might consider ZFS if you are really paranoid, so you can roll back.

      If the flash drive is not busy it might be hard to catch it when there is data in the cache. These things have such insane access times that small writes take less than an ms. You would not be very lucky if you managed to remove power just as one of those was happening. Compare that to an HDD that might want to spin up, unpark the drive head and at least search for the right track before writing your important 1 KB of data. I'd like some statistics on how much time the cache is empty compared to a hard drive when not in full use. I would not be surprised if the cache is completely empty of (dirty) pages almost all of the time on the SSD.

      I could imagine a 1 GB buffer in the future that is backed up by a super-capacitor. You could use that to write data to and consider it saved without writing it to the SSD at all. If a power failure would happen the drive could save the 1 GB in a continuous 1GB flash portion of the SSD (pre-cleared of course). Advantage would be that the most often written data could stay in the RAM virtually forever. As flash is much less power hungry than a hard drive you would need much less power stored in the capacitor. It would be very hard to get the capacitor linked up correctly, I assume.

    6. Re:No Battery? by shiftless · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The OS thinks that everything ACKed as sent to the storage unit is written,

      What does it matter what the OS "thinks"? When power is lost, all of its "thoughts" disappear. When you power it back on it reloads its "thoughts" from the DISK, thus there can be no confusion.

    7. Re:No Battery? by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      Because if the PC itself does not have time to properly shut down, your data will be cut in half anyway. A proper journaling FS would take care of any FS problems at least.

      This is only true if the hard disk does not lie about what data genuinely has been committed to disk. Many of them do. ZFS is particularly sensitive to this due to its extensive caching.

    8. Re:No Battery? by owlstead · · Score: 1

      Hey, I did not know that "disks" lie about that, do you have any more information on that? Sources maybe?

  24. Posts are generally easier to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    understand when you put them all.

      In the right place.

  25. Was 50 nm. WTF? by HiggsBison · · Score: 2, Interesting

    (Yes, I know the new parts are 34 nm)

    I thought the progression of feature size went: 90 nm, 65 nm, 45 nm, 34 nm.

    But the graphics processors seem to be using 55, and these SSDs are being reduced from 50.

    I thought they had to pour gazillions into standardizing fab construction, steppers, and all the equipment. So is some plant manager stumbling in with a hangover one morning and accidentally setting the big dial for 50 or 55 or something? What's the deal here?

    --
    My other car is a 1984 Nark Avenger.
    1. Re:Was 50 nm. WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Things like DRAM and flash are produced on totally separate process lines optimized for the kind of physical cells being made. They don't get the same processes as general logic used for CPUs and other separate controller circuits.

    2. Re:Was 50 nm. WTF? by edmudama · · Score: 1

      someone mod the above up please, the AC is exactly right.

      --
      More data, damnit!
    3. Re:Was 50 nm. WTF? by Spatial · · Score: 1

      AMD also have 40nm GPUs now (the HD4770). There's quite a variety.

  26. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by Fross · · Score: 1

    One assumes they are MLC which are still good for about 10,000 write cycles. SLCs for 100,000.

    The controller does a very good job of cycling "sectors" used, so the whole disk gets good use, rather than the same areas being overwritten constantly. The MTBF for SSDs is much higher than for conventional drives as a result, although the figure is less relevant as it's much more down to usage than anything else.

    Keep enough free space on the drive for the controller to do its cycling, don't use it for constant writes (torrents are a good example of what not to use it for - as for swap file, I don't know), and the drive will last longer than you'll use it for.

  27. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by Fross · · Score: 1

    The interesting difference between SSDs and platter based drive, is a write failure is not a warning sign that your heads are about to crash and you're going to lose the whole drive, it's just a failure of that one sector. Given extreme use over an extended period, the sectors would start to fail one by one, but no data should be lost, the drive capacity would start to shrink but the rest of the drive would be fine. Head crashes will be a thing of the past, thank god.

    Even when the entire device's writes are used up, one should still be able to read all the data from it! :)

  28. 25% faster game level loads. by obarthelemy · · Score: 1

    That's what Anandtech found out during "desktop" testing.

    (And, I assume, OS, Apps and Documents loads)

    That's it. 25% faster during the, what, 1% of the time your PC spends actually loading stuff off the disk ?

    The rest of the time, you get nothing.

    That's not worth $200 to me.

    On the Enterprise front, I wouldn't know how compelling that is (or not). But on the consumer front ...

    --
    The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    1. Re:25% faster game level loads. by Kneo24 · · Score: 1

      It all boils down to how you value your time. Don't rush to be so skeptical when there's clearly a market out there for them already. You may not value your time in that way as much as a person who already shelled out the money for an SSD.

      Personally, from my own first hand experience, I think it's worth it. Everything just feels more responsive. I normally don't do the whole early adopter thing even though I have some FU money laying around, but this time I did do it. The difference you notice is just like night and day.

    2. Re:25% faster game level loads. by TravisO · · Score: 1

      Well from the enterprise(y) side of things, if your HD is being ran 50+% of the time (and your home desktop is 1%), then 25% speed improvement is a huge improvement considering a server has times where it's pegged for performance. In small setups where you're on the verge of needing a second server and a load balancer (which adds up to a very pricey upgrade) then merely using SSD could be a life saver. But this is a niche example, despite, in high demand setups SSD is going to be huge success but not until after SSD proves itself on lifespan, as others have mentioned.

      Remember, just because it seems better on paper, mother nature might prove otherwise, I'm also in the "when consumer SSDs hit the 5yr mark, then I'll be impressed" camp. But I won't lie, if the price drops continue like they do now, I'll be happy to buy a 160GB SSD for $199 next year and keep my current SATA drive for my big storage (music and video).

    3. Re:25% faster game level loads. by baptiste · · Score: 1

      I've had a Shuttle XPC on my desk for a while - ie the drive light is visible at a glance. So anytime I'm noticing a lag or delay,I'll glance at the drive light and more often then not it's 'on' as some app churns a ton of data to the drive for whatever reason. Point is, I find myself glancing at the drive light often enough I can see where an SSD would be a huge improvement. If the 80GB drives drop to $150 or so at some point - expect more people to start thinking it's worthwhile...

    4. Re:25% faster game level loads. by LordKronos · · Score: 1

      That's compared to the first generation X25-M. If you've got one of those, by all means keep it (I plan to). If you DON'T already have an SSD, then getting one is often regarded as one of the most cost effective performance upgrades you can make at this point in time. Of course, that will depend on what you do. If gaming is your thing, then a faster hard drive isn't going to mean much as long as you've got sufficient ram.

    5. Re:25% faster game level loads. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nevertheless, you seem mesmerized by the idea. You've posted several times in this thread.

    6. Re:25% faster game level loads. by obarthelemy · · Score: 1

      Nope, that was compared to a rotating HD...

      Strangely, the benchmark has disapeared from their review a couple of hour aftert hey posted it. They must have gotten a call from their advertisers.

      --
      The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    7. Re:25% faster game level loads. by LordKronos · · Score: 1

      Either you misread it or they made some mistake. The reviews by Anand have been pretty positive about the benefits of SSD vs HDD. For example:
      http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3531&p=31

      Drives will get better and although we're still looking at SSDs in their infancy, as a boot/application drive I still believe it's the single best upgrade you can do to your machine today. I've moved all of my testbeds to SSDs as well as my personal desktop

      I doubt he would have been so positive about SSDs if their benefit was as minimal as you seem to indicate.

    8. Re:25% faster game level loads. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, that's what the graphs showed in the Anandtech review, but it wasn't meant to be (from my impression) the primary point. Elsewhere in the review, he mentions that he took out the SSD and went back to a convential spinning platter HDD, and he wasn't sure for a while that his computer wasn't broken. SSD gave him a much more enjoyable user experience in the desktop sense... multi-tasking between various applications, tabbed browsing, just doing what he wanted to do without having to plan which apps to open or close at what time, and things ran smoother. Sure, things start quicker and load quicker, but the big win is having a smoother experience just doing your work.

    9. Re:25% faster game level loads. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're dumb. Please stop talking.

      According to the last benchmark on this page, an Intel X-25 reduced the load time for a WoW level to 4.85 seconds (versus 12.5 for a WD Raptor). Clearly your "25%" figure is not the whole story.
      http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3531&p=3

      Furthermore, there was an incident some time ago related to one of Anand's major advertisers. You see, the first version of the OCZ Vertex actually sucked. Anand posted about it. OCZ was not pleased. (Fortunately, OCZ is a decent company, and they took Anand's criticism to heart. The next version of the Vertex's firmware greatly improved the issues Anand mentioned.) There have been other incidents as well, such as when Anand broke the story about the crappy JMicron flash controllers, when Anand broke the story about the SSD fragmentation problem, when he criticized Intel for not announcing TRIM support for the G1 X-25s, et cetera.

      In other words, everything you say is wrong and you could seriously improve the average intellectual level of a discussion simply by not participating in it.

  29. Consumer-class devices in servers by clawsoon · · Score: 1

    I've had to build more than one server from consumer-class components when money was tight. Once these are down to 70 cents or so a gigabyte with 500GB+ capacities - let's say in two years, if prices keep dropping as they have been - I'll be putting them in servers at first opportunity. With their random read performance, they blow away even the best server-class rotating hard drives.

    I can hardly wait. Really. Rotating media is the bane of my existence.

  30. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by RoboRay · · Score: 1

    I bought a 4GB Gigabyte iRAM box specifically for the swap file on an SSD system.

  31. Next week? by Talinom · · Score: 1

    the new product line that should be available next week.

    I am fighting the urge to head down to Puget Systems in Auburn, WA and see if they really have the SSDSA2MH160G2 for sale for $490.55. My guess is it isn't quite ready to be sold yet and was merely indexed by Google.

    Must. Control. Checkbook.

    --
    "Giving money and power to governments is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." - P.J. O'Rourke
  32. How about a hybrid model? by swb · · Score: 1

    Part HDD, part SSD?

    During operation, the SSD data is mirrored onto the HDD in the background, or, better yet, the HDD is larger and the most frequently used data is kept on the SSD but you get the whole capacity of the HDD.

    1. Re:How about a hybrid model? by owlstead · · Score: 1

      My most used data is OS + applications. An SSD is big enough to hold both. Data, especially MM can be kept on a HDD. Backups can be made to HDD. You would need special chips and such to put everything together. There were some hybrid drives (ok, with a minimum of slower flash with less leveling) but they failed. If it is ever really required, I expect people would be able to do it in the OS.

    2. Re:How about a hybrid model? by icegreentea · · Score: 1

      Well, aside from just putting your OS and most commonly used apps on an SSD, what you're describing is a hybrid drive. You CAN buy these. I think Samsung makes a bunch. But apparently, you can emulate that in software (any HDD + SSD), at the cost of some processor overhead I guess. Microsoft has their implementation called ReadyBoost thats integrated into Vista and 7. No idea how well it works though.

  33. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by PsychoKiller · · Score: 3, Informative

    Cool, thanks for the tip!

    cat /proc/diskstats | grep "[sh]d[a-z] " | awk '{print $10 "*512/1024/1024/1024"}' | bc -l

  34. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    unfortunately column 10 is not the number of sectors written, it is number of milliseconds spent doing IO

    http://www.mjmwired.net/kernel/Documentation/iostats.txt

  35. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by LordKronos · · Score: 1

    Unless you system is maxed out on ram, I don't see the point. 4GB of extra ram will give you the same ability as a 4GB swap file. I've never had any problems running either windows or linux with no swap as long as you have sufficient ram (under windows, the only downside is that I think it won't be able to give you any debug info if the entire OS crashes, because the swap file is where it dumps the crash log)

  36. HotHardware too by tab_b · · Score: 1

    HotHardware has taken a crack at these new drives also today.

  37. Sounds like a good way by Chuck+Chunder · · Score: 1

    of doubling production costs and increasing complexity.

    --
    Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
  38. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by LordKronos · · Score: 3, Informative

    Yes, I'm aware of what is in that document (that's how I figured out what the columns were to begin with). That document skips over the first 3 columns of the output for it's numbering (major device number, minor device number, and device name). It considers column 4 to be field 1. Not sure why they wrote the document that way, but PsychiKiller's command above uses awk to print out the 10th column, and that does indeed give you the number of bytes written.

  39. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Shit, my porn collection can't be deleted! My wife's going to kill me!"

  40. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by atamido · · Score: 1

    When the drive finally does start having problems, my understanding is that it won't just fail and you'll have lost data. The failure should happen on write, and if it fails to write that will be detectable. If it writes successfully, then it should be readable. If it does fail, I believe that part will just be marked inaccessible and the data will be written somewhere else. The drive should (again, as far as I know) provide details of the failure to SMART and other disk utilities, so the problem can be detected before it progresses to a critical stage.

    That's what I've read too, but my experience has been different. I had two of the first affordable SSDs, made by OCZ and with the infamous JMicron controller. I was having serious issues with data corruption quite soon after OS installation and I wasn't sure if it was something with the controller and Linux. I ended up using some *nix utility designed to fill the drive with a byte combination and then read it back and see if it was correct. There was apparently a multi-megabyte section of the drive that would fail writing every other bit. (Writing 1111 would read back as 1010.) Because of the wear leveling, the location of the failure on the drive would change constantly, and the drive/OS never notified of a write failure. Silent data corruption.

    The drive was eventually replaced by OCZ, and neither replacement nor the other original showed similar issues so it may have just been a fluke. But it's very possible that the possibility of write failures is very much being glazed over by manufacturers. I have also seen flash devices like USB thumb drives and flash cards fail catastrophically to read written data, so I am pretty skeptical of these claims.

    Still, it's not any worse than my experience with hard disk drives.

  41. executive summary by Eil · · Score: 1

    I might be in the market for an SSD soon, so I put some note together based on my reading of the articles in the topic and elsewhere. I thought I'd share them here so I can just Google them later.

    • The first and second-gen Intel X25-M disks don't have a huge performance delta. (The 2G is slightly faster in most cases.)
    • Sequential read is maxed out around 260MB/sec on all high-performance SATA-II SSDs.
    • The M models suck at sequential writes, but the E models are great.
    • The M models (MLC) outperform all other disks on random operations.
    • The X25-M second-gen models are supposed to be about half the price of first-gen models.

    Conclusions:

    • If sequential write speed is important, get the X25-E.
    • If sequential write is not important, either an X25-M first-gen or second-gen is acceptable, it will mainly come down to whichever is cheaper at the time.

    Also note that Kingston sells licensed clones of the X25 disks, although currently they are actually a bit more expensive than the Intel-branded ones on newegg.

    1. Re:executive summary by fiontan · · Score: 1

      One more note between the X25-E and X25-M... The X25-E is branded as an enterprise-level disk, and is correspondingly much more expensive. It is a SLC design (single layer controller), where the X25-M is a MLC design (multi-layer controller). SLC chips are expected to last considerably longer than MLC, because fewer bits are stored in a single cell in an SLC chip, each cell is expected to be written fewer times when writing or modifying data on the disk. But still, as mentioned in numerous comments here, the X25-M should* last long enough for most consumer uses. *- time may prove us wrong, but I hope not.

    2. Re:executive summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One more note on that. The X-25 E is intended for enterprise use, which assumes a much heavier write cycle. Its MTBF is lower than the M's, but that is because it assumes users will be writing vastly more data to it.

      The X-25 M also has "write endurance protection," which will activate to protect drive longevity (at the cost of write speed) when it detects an extremely write-heavy workload. According to Intel, most ordinary users will never see this feature activate; I have also not seen it discussed in any benchmarks.

      http://download.intel.com/design/flash/nand/mainstream/322296.pdf

  42. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by Khyber · · Score: 1

    If they'd use OUM for their memory modules they'd not have to worry about r/w cycles for a drive that is used for swap.

    --
    Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  43. Swap file that doubles as a hibernation file by tepples · · Score: 1

    I've never had any problems running either windows or linux with no swap as long as you have sufficient ram (under windows, the only downside is that I think it won't be able to give you any debug info if the entire OS crashes, because the swap file is where it dumps the crash log)

    Unless you have the system set to share one file between swap and hibernation, and your combined swap-and-hibernation file is smaller than RAM. I've read comments in other articles telling how someone had to close programs before the computer could hibernate properly; otherwise, it would just suspend.

  44. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Shit, my porn collection can't be deleted! My wife's going to kill me!"

    Of course it can be deleted. If the unmodifiable sector is in the actual JPEG files or the directory, the controller remaps the sector to a spare.[1] If you're worried about forensic recovery, use a file system that scrambles each sector with a unique key and then forgets those keys when the file is deleted.

    [1] In my experience, the manufacturer of an SSD designates roughly 5 to 7 percent of sectors as spares. Coincidentally, this happens to equal the difference between a MB and a MiB or between a GB and a GiB, allowing decimal marketing to continue. Some sectors will end up remapped before the drive is completely written because they were defective from day of manufacture.

  45. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

    You made me think up a good question: exactly how hard is it to do a secure wipe on one of these things with a standard NTFS or EXT3 OS on it? Because I often get businesses to donate to me their older machine when they are gonna upgrade because I refurb them and give them to the poor. They don't worry about their data because they know that all they have to do is ask and I'll perfom a DoD-7 onsite, and I have a good enough rep that they'll just hand the boxes over knowing that my SOP is to DoD-7 without even booting up one time. After all, I want the hardware, not what is on it.

    But if these things become standard for businesses and they can't be reliably wiped? Good luck with refurbing. It is bad enough that so many have bought into that wives tales about needing hardware destroyed (I say show me a single site that has recovered a DoD-7. Hell show me one that has recovered from even a single random wipe. You can't because it can't be done) but if these SSDs can't be wiped thanks to the wear leveling algorithm it is gonna be another piece of e-waste filling up our landfills when they could have been refurbed like HDDs. After all, a single mom doesn't care if a PC has a 40Gb HDD as long as her kid can do his schoolwork on it.

    So has anybody tried to do recovery on one of these? Or tried a DoD-7 or other secure wipe? How does the level wearing affect the possibility of data recovery? I have seen a lot of articles on this tech but I can't remember ever reading anybody testing these for questions like this. And considering these are being marketed to business as well as gamers these questions should be answered.

    --
    ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
  46. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by slashqwerty · · Score: 1
    This will display the drive name in front:

    cat /proc/diskstats | grep "[sh]d[a-z] " | awk '{printf ($3)("\t")($10 * (512/1024/1024/1024))(" GB\n")}'

  47. Wear leveling does not increase drive life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wear leveling does not extend the drive life in any way. It doesn't allow more writes, and it won't extend the lifetime of the drive. It simply causes it to maintain capacity as long as possible before it fails all at once. Without wear leveling you would still get the same number of write cycles, but the drive would slowly decline in available capacity.

    1. Re:Wear leveling does not increase drive life by LordKronos · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Wear leveling does not extend the drive life in any way...It simply causes it to maintain capacity as long as possible

      But that IS extending the life. Without wear leveling, if I've got an 80GB drive and I store 50GB of data on it which I frequently modify, then after X years that 50GB will be worn out and I'll be left with 30GB. That isn't enough for me to use, so essentially the drive is dead as far as I'm concerned. Now consider a drive with wear leveling. After X years, I will only have used up 5/8 of the write cycles across the entire drive. I can still use the drive for another 0.6X years. Wear leveling has extended the useful life of the drive by 60%.

      But even for more typical usage, it's possible for wear leveling to actually extend the number of writes that can be done if the wear leveling works in certain ways. For this to make sense, you have to understand how SSD storage is organized. Much like a HDD, which is organized into sectors, clusters, platters, etc, we have a similar organization with SSDs. You have bytes grouped into pages, and multiple pages are grouped into blocks (and it goes on from there).
      The smallest group of data which you can write on an SSD is a page. However, the smallest group you can erase is a block.

      SSDs don't allow you to overwrite a page with your new data. Instead, you must first erase it and then write the new data to it. The problem here is that you have to erase a block at a time, but the rest of the pages in the block could already contain other data. So what happens is that the controller copies all of the pages that you don't want to modify from that block into cache, erases the block, writes back all of the page that are staying the same, and then writes your new block. Now surely you can see the problem here...you've only intended to write to one single page, but you've also used up a write cycle for every single page that you DIDN'T modify.

      So how can wear leveling help this? Well, lets say that block consists of 10 pages, and only 9 of those pages are filled. You now want to modify one of those 9 pages. Well, instead of doing an erase, which uses up a write cycle on 9 of the 10 pages, the wear leveling can simply say "OK, I won't erase page 4...instead I'll just remember that I don't care about the data stored there. I'll also write this new data for page 4 into page 10 and remember that the data is now stored there". Thus to make that modification, we only use up a write cycle on a single page instead of 9 of the pages. Now, the next time we go to make a write, we'll have to erase the entire block and write to 9 of those pages. However, we'll once again have an empty page, so on the 3rd write we can do the same thing we did the first time. As a result, instead of a single modification writing to 9 pages each time, it averages 5 page writes each time (alternates between 1 and 9 pages).

      Of course the wear leveling can be extended to perform the same type of thing across multiple block. The advantage here would be that, as lots of data gets modified, each page may eventually be migrated out of that block without the block having to be erased. Eventually, we could end up with the block being empty and then we can erase it without rewriting pointlessly to any of the page (or if it's almost empty, we'll only rewrite a few pages).

      Other things wear leveling could do is recognize that some blocks never seem to get modified, and then shuffle that data to a different spot on the drive so that you don't end up with certain blocks that suffer almost no write-wear while other blocks are reaching their limit.

      I don't know which specific techniques current SSD drives implement, but these are a few possibilities. I'm sure there are others.

  48. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

    The DoD wipe criteria are based on magnetic drives. For SSD, I believe a delete + TRIM would be equivalent to a DoD wipe, and much faster.

    Don't quote me on that though.

    It's not that the data can't be completely removed, in fact once data is overwritten on an SSD as far as I know there is no way to recover what was previously there. Again, don't quote me on that, but if you are re-formating a drive, filling it up with a full pass of 0's should do the trick, because unlike magnetic media it isn't "mostly 0" or "mostly 1", it's either switched one way or the other. It's a completely different technology and the drawbacks that created the need for DoD multi-pass writes to elimate the ability to read back data should not be necessary.

    Once the write gates have worn out and all you can do is read it, though, physical destruction is probably the only way to eliminate the data. Even then, it would be easier and less expensive than magnetic disc destruction (not that that's all that expensive).

    BTW, regarding the effectiveness of HDD recovery from random writes and the DoD wipe spec, hard drive data extraction that made the extreme measures of the DoD wipe spec necessary is very very difficult today because the drives are laid out differently than they used to be 10 years ago. In particular, standing the magnetic bits on end made the surface area for each bit an order of magnitude smaller. This is what caused the explosion of hard drive sizes (500gb drives were seen very shortly after this happened), it also required much finer equipment to read and write to the drives in the hard drive. The techniques for recovering data on drives that had been over-written relied on the fact that the small read/write mechanism inside the drives was not very precise. It did not write the perfect magnetic equivalent of a 1 or a 0, the best it could manage was a .98 or .99. Well, upon writing a "0" over a .99 (which read as a 1 to the imprecise hard drive)it became a .02 or maybe .03. Because of this the writes and re-writes were effectively trackable three or four writes deep, and with sharp equipment and a good algorithm you could reliably trace and recover the original data. Hence the multiple passes of 0's, then 1's, then random, then more 0's, etc. all designed to fool data recovery algorithms. Fast forward to modern drives, however, and the read/write heads are writing .999's and .001's instead of .99's and .01's. It is significantly more difficult to measure and recover the data these days

    None of it applies to SSDs though, they are different in every way and the DoD spec is meaningless when applied to them. Seriously though, if you want to be truly secure, a delete + TRIM should be enough, but there are also already programs that will fill the disk with useless data, after which a delete + TRIM would be as secure as you can get.

    --
    Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
  49. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by DJRumpy · · Score: 1

    That and I don't believe the data itself is lost is it? Only the capacity to erase the data and re-write it is lost? In other words, it would essentially turn that it into a read-only device in those 'bad' blocks?

  50. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by argoth · · Score: 1

    Why does everyone insist on using cat where grep alone will suffice?

  51. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by giuda · · Score: 1

    Everyone likes cats!

  52. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by fiontan · · Score: 1
    Why does everyone insist on piping grep to awk when awk can also perform the regex? Actually, there are more reasons than you might expect...
    • Familiarity. More people are likely to recognise grep regular expressions as search terms than awk regular expressions, even though they are often identical. Grep just means search, at least to a geek.
    • Substitutability. You can replace grep with any other tool that can process stdin, without worrying about which argument is actually the file providing the data. This can be very useful if you're logically building up the command.
    • Efficiency. Cat does nothing but open a file and read it. It probably does that extremely well. Grep is primarily a search algorithm, and its file handling routines might not be optimal; it might hold file descriptors open longer than necessary, or whatever. In grep's case, it probably doesn't, but without looking at (and understanding) the source of what you're actually using you don't actually know. Of course, if you use the right tool for each part of the job, then you don't even have to care.
    • Permissioning. Linux/unix/posix doesn't actually do this, but you could run grep with a very restricted permission set; it is allowed to read from stdin, write to stdout, and allocate a certain amount of memory, and that's it. Even if your grep was somehow compromised, it couldn't do anything but print bad stuff to stdout. The cat process has a higher level of trust, and is allowed to read from the file system, and write to stdout. If you happened to be doing a multi-file grep, then you could invoke grep with a higher level of permissions so it can read the filesystem itself. If you're running an object permissioned OS (eros, keykos, coyotos, or a number of other OSes that aren't actually ready for use yet) then cat | grep is actually the recommended way to do things.

    But mostly, it's just what they're used to. There's nothing wrong with it, it's roughly the same efficiency either way, so do it the way that makes sense to you, and for the problem you're solving.

  53. A word from a VERY "early adopter" of SSD tech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "It's always fun to read bleedin' edgers rationnalize how they didn't pay over-the-top for immature first trys that soon got obsoleted." - by obarthelemy (160321) on Thursday July 23, @03:33PM (#28799041)

    I've been using SSD's (& software ramdisks before these, since 1991 or thereabouts from DOS, thru Win9x, thru NT & later physical SSD's 2000/XP/Server 2003) since late 2002... & the type I use is NOT based on "FLASH" ram (w/ its limited lifespan + slower write speeds), & are mature.

    First: In the CENATEK "RocketDrive" (PCI 2.2 bus @ 133mb/sec transfer rate, 2gb PC-133 SDRAM)...

    Secondly/more currently/lately: In the GIGABYTE IRAM (SATA 1 bus @ 150mb/sec transfer rate, 4gb DDR-400 RAM)...

    ----

    "I've got some oil here that will do wonder for your hair ! it is expensive, too" - by obarthelemy (160321) on Thursday July 23, @03:33PM (#28799041)

    I can tell you, AND ALSO SHOW YOU, right now (& prove it) that these units work FAR faster than ordinary mechanical HDD's - Especially for seek/access (many orders of magnitude faster here by FAR) & READS (nearly 4x - 5x as fast here in fact, & in a test I had done using HDTach 3.x), which is MOST of what MOST USERS, do (reads, vs. writes) most of the time.

    Results of said test, for your own reference &/or verification, vs. your statement I just quoted there above now?

    See here, to verify my statements -> http://www.thenewtech.com/forums/storage-removable-media/interesting-comparison-i-did-2-diff-true-ssds-7819/

    The results there should function to bear out the truth of my statements here... &, possibly, to "justify the expense" of this current crop of FLASH RAM based SSD units to others, because I was out to do so myself on the IRAM here (which the larger & more current FLASH RAM based units are more expensive than the type I use (@ least lately the current FLASH units cost more, but, these FLASH based units have a FAR LARGER storage capacity vs. the kinds I use))...

    Also, that test of mine MAY possibly also function to give others some "unique ways" to utilize these units as well on their own systems, other than for a main bootup disk etc. et al! I apply mine for both read AND WRITE in nature tasks (because the type of SSD I use also does well on writes, whereas FLASH RAM based ones do not by way of comparison to the type I use).

    I say this, simply because in that benchmark "drag race test" I did between the 2 units I use here, I also extoll the methods & means for which I use them for @ home for superior overall system performance

    (E.G.-> PageFile.sys placement, %temp% & %tmp% placement, webbrowser cache location, spooler location, logging location for apps & the OS as much as possible to offload those tasks from my main C: drive (in essence speeding that up to by doing so) & to offset fragmentation those smallish files can create in their own selves + other files too, a "longer term" overall performance gain, in other words on that last note).

    Also, many years earlier in 1996-2001, though I do not mention it in that test? How to use them for gain in "industrial environs" as well... this I outlined for BOTH CENATEK in a review I did for their RocketDrive unit (used to be on front page of their website in fact, until the server it was hosted on went down, not mine)... &, for EEC Systems/SuperSpeed.com, @ Ms TechEd 2001-2002 iirc, for my ideas for "creative uses of ramdisks", albeit in "industrial environs" also!

    Which, again, took a company called EEC Systems/SuperSpeed.com, whom are a certified MS partner (for whom I did some work on paid contract for in regards to software based ramdisks & diskcaches they produce (the type that works @ diskdriver level, NOT filesystem levels where I made it up

  54. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by MagicMerlin · · Score: 1

    It should be longer than that actually -- using the 10k write lifepsan and a 80gb drive, your life span would be:

    (10k * (80gb/20gb)) * Q

    where Q is the efficiency of wear leveling and defending against write amplification (as Intel calls it).

    using Q of 0.5, we get 20000 days, or 54.8 years.

    I think it will be less than that though...10k writes makes a lot of assumptions, and I think is only guaranteed for a particular period of time....the flash cells 'age', and the age interacts with write lifespan.

  55. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by LordKronos · · Score: 1

    I can't find the website where I originally read the numbers I quoted, but that website showed the calculations similar to yours, and they came up with the 5 year, 20GB figure. However I did find the numbers I quoted straight from Intel:

    http://www.intel.com/cd/channel/reseller/asmo-na/eng/products/nand/feature/index.htm

    Expand the "Comparison chart" link a few paragraphs from the top. You will see an additional table. Last row in the table:

    "5 years - 35TB written, up to 20GB/day for 5 years"

  56. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by drsmithy · · Score: 1

    I'm still leery of just how quickly you can start killing one of these when it's hosting the swap file.

    Then you should probably buy more RAM.

  57. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by drsmithy · · Score: 1

    I bought a 4GB Gigabyte iRAM box specifically for the swap file on an SSD system.

    That's a damn expensive way to fix problem(s) that likely didn't exist in the first place...

  58. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by MagicMerlin · · Score: 1

    Interesting...I wonder what accounts for the difference in the numbers...aging, or just being conservative? Or maybe the 10k figure is not accurate...using it, an 80gb drive should be in theory able to write 800tb, not 35. Probably, all of the above.

  59. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

    Truecrypt has a handy feature where it can tell you how much data has been read and written to an encrypted system drive.

    My system has been on for about 45 minutes, doing some email, web browsing and RDP. Total read data is ~550MB and total written is ~179MB.

    Besides, by the time the SSD fails (which is more likely to be down to some kind of electrical fault or failing on-board flash/RAM) you will be able to get a new one for a fraction of the cost.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  60. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by LordKronos · · Score: 1

    Well, your 800tb figure would be based on a perfect distribution of writes...essentially like treating the entire 80GB as a gigantic ring buffer. Factors that could modify that figure:

    1) First, your very basic figure should be slightly higher, because these 80GB drives actually contain something like 6GB additional capacity that is unavailable for use. It's there so that the wear leveling has some extra room to work with.

    2) You have to write in pages at a time, but there are going to be many times when you don't need to write a full page, so that's the first thing to cut into the theoretical amount.

    3) Wear leveling isn't going to be perfect. There are going to be pages that are written to "unnecessarily" as part of the erase process. With SSDs, you can write in pages but you have to erase in blocks, so to modify a used page, you copy the entire block to cache, modify the page in cache, erase the entire block, and write back the modified block. How many writes are "wasted" like this depends on both how you write data and how intelligent the wear leveling algorithms are.

  61. Re:Oooh. Questions Still Remain... by RoboRay · · Score: 1

    "That's a damn expensive way to fix problem(s) that likely didn't exist in the first place..."

    Not really. I got a good deal on the chassis, and pulled the RAM out of my box of junk.

    Plus, half the reason I did it this way was just to see how well it would work.

    But damn, is it fast! Paging basically incurs no performance penalty at all.

  62. where to buy? by kiss7 · · Score: 1

    Does anyone know a store that sells this?