Microsoft Finally Joins HTML 5 Standard Efforts

bonch writes "On Friday, Microsoft posted to a mailing list that IE developers are reviewing the HTML 5 standard for future versions of Internet Explorer. They've given some feedback on the current editor's draft, saying that they 'have more questions than answers' and criticizing many of HTML 5's new tags, like <header>, <footer> and <aside>, calling them 'arbitrary' or unnecessary. It remains to be seen whether Microsoft waited too long to try to influence basic parts of the spec that most of their competitors have already adopted."

Comments

Lol wut?

[TubeSteak]

"It remains to be seen whether Microsoft waited too long to try to influence basic parts of the spec that most of their competitors have already adopted."

Whatever Microsoft decides to implement is going to become a defacto standard.
It's the sad but true result of still significant share of the browser market.

Re:Lol wut?

[Anonymous Coward]

Whatever Microsoft decides to implement is going to become a defacto standard.
It's the sad but true result of still significant share of the browser market.

Their market share is crumbling away year upon year, and this is despite new PCs coming with IE pre-installed and the default option. People are choosing to get an alternative. Factor in most browsing stats are from slackers on their work PCs, not home machines. HTML5 will not be targeted to people avoiding doing work at the office.

MS are about to be forced to offer a choice of browsers in other world markets, you can bet IE is going to take a hammering from that.

Most web devs don't give a hoot about IE specifics unless they're a doze only shop, few even bother with IE6 support any more unless contractually obliged to do so. If MS want to keep relevant, they are going to have to adhere to published specs. Their silly games of subtly breaking things to make devs code to IE is slowly coming to an end.

Re:Lol wut?

[moogsynth]

Whatever Microsoft decides to implement is going to become a defacto standard.

No, the real standards will be used properly. They'll just be surrounded by ugly hacks to make sure the page renders properly in Internet Explorer.

Re:Lol wut?

[zenetik]

In the past, I would have agreed but now I'm not so sure. Microsoft may still hold the largest chunk of the OS pie, but I think it has lost considerable credibility with consumers. Failing to play by the rules has worked for Microsoft in the past, but I don't think that is going to work much longer. I think consumers are growing tired of spending money on inferior software and this discontentment will probably extend to Internet Explorer if it can't play by the rules. HTML 5 is supposed to eliminate competing standards so that everything can work off the same set of rules. For a developer, this is a godsend. No more developing standards compliant code and then having to write bad code in order to appease Internet Explorer. I expect we'll see a developer backlash against browsers that aren't compatible with the standards and this will translate to either Microsoft playing by the rules or watching its browser market share plummet.

Re:Lol wut?

[erroneus]

The MSIE market share has been failing in big numbers lately. I wouldn't be so certain that the old truth is the same as the new truth.

That said, it is undeniable that MS will embrace and extend in ways that will break everyone else's implementation. One expectation is that they will implement the video functionality that, while officially removed from the HTML5 standard, will be implemented by everyone anyway. With that said, they will implement one of THEIR codecs that will not work "without a license." There is plenty of room for typical MS shenanigans when implementing HTML5, but you can bet they will not score any higher than 30 on the HTML5 acid test and that will be by design.

But if Microsoft's browser dominance falls below 50% any time soon, all bets are off -- they will not be able to afford to pull off a non-standard browser too well because the perception will then be "still broken" as web developers are increasingly free to build web sites using standards instead of MSIE idiosyncrasies in mind.

The fact is, it is getting increasingly popular to "rebel" against Microsoft right now. My prediction is that Microsoft will try and will fail in playing their "old game" and are in less of a position to change the rules as they have in the past.

Re:Lol wut?

[Runaway1956]

And, that is exactly where the REST of the world is screwing up. We (meaning all the world outside of Redmond) need to set the standard, then comply with it. If/when pages don't render in IE, we need to shrug, and say, "So what?" IT IS NOT THE WORLD'S PROBLEM when MS chooses to break things. Ballmer wants to throw a chair, few of us notices, and even fewer give a damn. Ballmer wants to break IE, I don't notice, and I don't give a damn. Why does anyone else?

The correct procedure for website design, would be to test the site in FF, Opera, Safari, and/or any other standards compliant browser, and say you're done. Don't even TRY to load it in IE. If it loads, fine, if not, tough. If/when someone complains, just tell that individual that the page renders perfectly in any standards compliant browser, and that they should get one.

It is not the rest of the world's responsibility to "fix" MS screw ups.

MS HTML5

[sskinnider]

It doesn't matter how long MS waited. They will just "extend" the standard and call all other implementations broken.

Haven't tracked HTML5... but...

[Junta]

MS definitely did a poor job of tracking the standards effort. Getting changes they want is unlikely. There is definitely the appearance and likelihood of MS just trying to impede the standard because every other major browser producer is way ahead of them on HTML5, and the features contained therein are a huge threat to IE. If Firefox, Opera, Chrome and Safari all support HTML5 and can give better video and interactive without Flash (and notably Silverlight), then Web devs may find it worth it to leave IE out of their support efforts to get out of having to use proprietary technologies with more cumbersome licensing circumstances.

That said, generally they have some points. Many of these tags to me seem analogous to ,, and similar tags from HTML that are widely regarded as a poor idea to use in the age of style sheets. The philosophy widely espoused with regard to modern web development is to separate content from presentation (much like much GUI application design philosophies). Many of the tags MS mentions seem to go against that design philosophy.

Some other criticisms are not along those lines (i.e. they don't question the validity of some tags, just if they are 'as valid' as other tags that could have been added with it. These criticisms seem a little more hollow at times without much substance.

but you know how hard, complex Opera support is...

[Ilgaz]

Funny that supporting Opera is nothing more than supporting W3C standards and give up 1990s lame tricks like browser sniffing. Same goes for Apple Safari (Webkit), Firefox.

It is not extra work, it is what they (webmasters) should be doing at first place.

Re:Video element is dead

[Lennie]

Actually, most people would like to see a browser without the need for plugins, so no Flash, no Silverlight/Mono. Just the browser doing all in a way that the page around it can actually interact with it properly. So you can rotate video's and take snapshots and apply filters for the blind. Or have proper hinting about what it is (an object-tag placed by a javscript on the page isn't very clear to a screen reader in comparison to a video-tag) and control by the blind, because the browser has control of the video.

Re:Too Late, Hot Plate

[Your.Master]

This *is* the process for this. The HTML 5 spec is not even remotely close to being done. "Too late" does not apply.