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BetOnSports Founder Pleads Guilty To Racketeering

Hugh Pickens writes "The founder of Internet- and telephone-based gambling operation BetOnSports has entered guilty pleas to three US charges, including a racketeering charge, and will forfeit $43.7 million to the US government as part of a plea agreement. Beginning in the mid- to late-1990s, Gary Kaplan set up businesses in Antigua and later Costa Rica to provide sports betting services to US residents through web sites and toll-free telephone numbers. Those numbers terminated in Houston or Miami, and were then forwarded to Costa Rica by satellite transmitter or fiber-optic cable. Some of Kaplan's web servers were located in Miami and were remotely controlled from Costa Rica. People became customers by depositing money in a BetOnSports account. By 2004, the BetOnSports organization's principal base of operations in Costa Rica employed about 1,700 people, had nearly one million registered customers and accepted more than 10 million sports bets. Now bankrupt, BetOnSports took in $1.25 billion in 2004, with 98 percent of that revenue coming from bets made through its web site by clients in the United States. 'Gary Kaplan made millions of dollars by making it too easy for people to gamble away their hard-earned money without having to leave their homes,' said FBI agent John Gillies. 'Today's guilty plea should have a lasting effect because Kaplan was not only the founder of BetOnSports, he was also one of the pioneers of illegal online gambling.'"

223 comments

  1. Who was he hurting? by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The only one hurt in this operation was the American government who didn't get their cut.

    The internet exposes many holes in the law, the most obvious one being locality in this case. What's the difference between driving to the nearby rez for some Pai Gow and going online to bet on the ponies?

    1. Re:Who was he hurting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Absolutely. I very rarely bet, but when I do, I'd like to be able to do so using the web (also my preferred way to shop).

      The real racketeers here are the US government and the existing betting operations who are trying to protect their cut and business.

    2. Re:Who was he hurting? by Jurily · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Another classic example why victimless crimes should be abolished. We're told that people over 18 are mature enough to make their own decisions in life.

      BTW, do the same agencies raid Las Vegas too, or is only internet gambling the work of the devil?

    3. Re:Who was he hurting? by Opportunist · · Score: 0, Redundant

      The only one hurt in this operation was the American government who didn't get their cut.

      You pinpointed the reason why this is illegal while other businesses, much more damaging to the US population, are legal.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:Who was he hurting? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Victimless? Hell, he cheated Uncle Sam, he did business without giving him his cut! In other organisations, you end up with concrete shoes in the river if you pull that stunt!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:Who was he hurting? by Miros · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Right, and it also takes money away from the Casinos, which the government protects through grants of monopoly franchises. Obv the government's recourse to tax revenue on the gambling winnings is via the casinos, and while it would be good for one state to setup internet gambling, the other states would object as they would not see any of the money made from the operation. (otherwise the major casino operators would have already implemented something like this)

    6. Re:Who was he hurting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hurray! We've figured out how they are gonna give free healthcare to everyone! Crack down on the laws and fine people who break them, etc..!! I'm for one am happy! Now, if we can just get those pesky adminstration people to pay their Penalties for tax evation that was conviently "fixed"...

    7. Re:Who was he hurting? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The only one hurt in this operation was the American government who didn't get their cut.

      You know, in theory at least, money that the government collects is meant to be spent on public works and infrastructure that benefit all of the citizens. This has, in the past, included large grants for developing the network infrastructure needed for people to connect to this service. If you don't like the way your government is spending its money then maybe you should organise a new government.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    8. Re:Who was he hurting? by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      You mean like when Kentucky was trying to seize internet "gambling" domains... while at the same time trying to allow online betting for THEIR horse tracks that also goes across federal telecommunications lines... breaking the same federal laws. "Internet Gambling" wasn't even illegal when these guys started out.

    9. Re:Who was he hurting? by Kierthos · · Score: 1

      No, but tax evasion was and is. It doesn't matter that they were based in Costa Rica... the fact that they were doing business in the United States means that Uncle Sugar wants his cut. Don't give Uncle Sugar his cut, and things get nasty.

      --
      Mr. Hu is not a ninja.
    10. Re:Who was he hurting? by Miros · · Score: 2, Informative
      Well, in some sense internet gambling still is not really illegal, as in some respects the federal government would have some difficulty in passing a law like that without the cooperation of each individual state. Instead, the act, written by Kyl of Arizona, makes it illegal to transfer money to or receive money for the purposes of games of chance electronically over the internet, or some such mechanism like that. The actual function is to make the money transfers illegal, making it the banks problem rather than the problem of the firms that are typically located overseas anyway.

      But yeah, that's what's interesting about it. The states that stand to lose the most are the minority (NJ, NV, CT, PA, couple of others that have legalized certain types of gaming). It seems likely that other states will continue to challenge this paradigm for the possibility of grabbing a bunch of tax cash very quickly until the law is repealed.

    11. Re:Who was he hurting? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you don't like the way your government is spending its money then maybe you should organise a new government.

      Can't. My current government took all my money. I don't have enough left to start another one.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    12. Re:Who was he hurting? by Kartoffel · · Score: 1

      What if, BetOnSports had refused all direct money transfers from or to US accounts? Make customers have to set up a proxy offshore account first, which would ostensibly be used for all sorts of things.

      When you bet, transfer money from the offshore account rather than from the US. If you win, likewise, money goes to offshore accounts only.

      Even if they had done this, I bet Uncle Sam would have gone after the internet traffic and phone calls-- anything that could be linked to activity within the US.

    13. Re:Who was he hurting? by fermion · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Funny how everyone picks on the IRS. I suppose you want soldiers to not have weopons, or to come home to nonexistent medical care. Or for children to vandalize houses rather than being safely locked up in school.

      In any case, the IRS is not the primary motivation for these suits. In most cases, it appears the existing gambling interests that are fighting to keep their monopolies alive and safe from free market competition. They want to control the online gambling as they do the offline. Competition that might increase the payouts to consumers and cut profits are just not in the cards, so to speak.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    14. Re:Who was he hurting? by jorx · · Score: 1

      Actually, I would love for soldiers to not have weapons...

    15. Re:Who was he hurting? by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      Another classic example why victimless crimes should be abolished.

      But, OTOH, if we abolish such laws, we should probably abolish any state financial safety nets for people who fall through the cracks. It's not fair that the voluntary and presumably informed choices of others to be charged directly to the taxpayers.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    16. Re:Who was he hurting? by grolaw · · Score: 1

      Oh come on, the Christian loonies who want less government are the same loonies behind this - they want to regulate women's bodies and dope and gambling - but don't tax them or question their rights to call the president a Nazi.

    17. Re:Who was he hurting? by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 1

      Funny how everyone picks on the IRS. I suppose you want soldiers to not have weopons, or to come home to nonexistent medical care. Or for children to vandalize houses rather than being safely locked up in school.

      Gee....I wonder how the US government got along before there was an IRS.

      --
      "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
    18. Re:Who was he hurting? by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      Gee....I wonder how the US government got along before there was an IRS.

      By having a group with a different name do the same thing? You think there was some legendary time when the government magically operated without collecting taxes?

    19. Re:Who was he hurting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The US government fought more than 4 declared wars and countless actions against Native Americans with no income tax.

    20. Re:Who was he hurting? by Jurily · · Score: 1

      But, OTOH, if we abolish such laws, we should probably abolish any state financial safety nets for people who fall through the cracks. It's not fair that the voluntary and presumably informed choices of others to be charged directly to the taxpayers.

      Was everything that happened in your life your decision?

    21. Re:Who was he hurting? by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      I'd rather pay for the state to rehabilitate them, and make them productive members of society, then to pay for them to be on welfare for the rest of their life, or even worse, to have tons of homeless people all over the streets begging for money.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    22. Re:Who was he hurting? by extremescholar · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So isn't the government then guilty of racketeering?

      --
      Using the Freedom of Speech while I still have it.
    23. Re:Who was he hurting? by houghi · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yeah, stupid people gamble. Smart people invest.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    24. Re:Who was he hurting? by davester666 · · Score: 1

      Yes. With lotteries, the gov't skims 50% or more off the top, then has the gall to tax the money the person wins...

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    25. Re:Who was he hurting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only one hurt in this operation was the American government who didn't get their cut.

      The population of the United States is responsible for the debt of the US government. So, to answer the question the future tax payers of the united states is hurt when people are conducting business in the United States without paying accurate taxes.

    26. Re:Who was he hurting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, but there was a time when the Federal government stopped apportioning taxes to the States. The 16th Amendment, of all Amendments is probably the one most diametrically opposed to the ideas in the original Constitution.

    27. Re:Who was he hurting? by ottothecow · · Score: 1
      IIRC, there are plenty of online gambling (esp. poker) sites that do something like this. Often it is difficult to even take money from the US...paypal and the such wont allow gambling transactions.

      Why do you think you cant call up any of the swiss banks and open an account? I'm not talking about only the movie-magic anonymous numbered accounts...if you call up UBS and start talking in what sounds like american english, they are going to ask if you are from the USA and then inform you that they no longer deal with new customers from the states.

      You would *think* that the US government wouldn't have anything to do with swiss banking laws or have any authority over banks that do not have a single US branch but that is not the case.

      It is very hard to accept money from US customers if the government doesn't want you to be able to accept it.

      --
      Bottles.
    28. Re:Who was he hurting? by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Sports betting is legal in Nevada. Which brings up an interesting point-- when the feds were coming up with that total, did they subtract the bets coming from Nevada?

    29. Re:Who was he hurting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With all the money in the world, you still wouldn't be able to "make your own government". First you have to find a place for this new government to "govern". So that requires land. I don't know about you, but wherever you buy land, you have to obey the laws of the country that that land falls under.

      I would think there are enough like minded individuals that would gladly go somewhere to start over. Create a new culture of their own and what not. Similar to what settlers used to do. Goodluck finding free land anywhere these days. Heck I don't think you're even allowed to claim land on either of the poles.

      On another note, one idea you could implement, but only if you had a large amount of money and infrastructure ready to support it. Build your own island, whether floating or permanently created using new soil from somewhere else. Make sure you make it as far away from any countries as possible. As in the middle of an ocean. Otherwise, you'd eventually have your nearest country trying to claim you.

      This I believe firmly. Ideas break at the extremes. And government(like internet-based"crimes") are ideas that really do break once you poke and prod them with new situations, or look at them at the extremes.

      -XcepticZP

    30. Re:Who was he hurting? by geoskd · · Score: 1

      Was everything that happened in your life your decision?

      No, but my reaction to those events were all 100% within my control.

      A child has no self control, but learns that it cannot have whatever it wants, whenever it wants, and so develops self control. Even an adult can develop self control. There is no reason that each adult shouldn't be 100% responsible for their own actions. Any base emotion can be controlled by rational thought. Anything less is a cop-out by the individual involved. Anyone who wants to take the emotionally easy road and do whatever they want, whenever they want has failed understand there are consequences, in part because society has failed to reinforce those consequences...

      -=Geoskd

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    31. Re:Who was he hurting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No weapons for soldiers sounds like a good plan. Maybe they would start to think about how to best end a war instead of shooting at everything that moves.

    32. Re:Who was he hurting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, I would love for soldiers to not have weapons...

      You would love it for the week it took before your country got taken over by the nation with soldiers that still had weapons.

      I don't like wars of aggression, but peace can't exist if you're not prepared to defend it with decidedly violent means.

    33. Re:Who was he hurting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Take a look @ http://bit.ly/R7HBx Chapter 16 about Jonathan May. Interesting bit about the fed reserve and its curruption.

    34. Re:Who was he hurting? by jcr · · Score: 1

      By having a group with a different name do the same thing?

      Nope, the customs service didn't seize our wages.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    35. Re:Who was he hurting? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      You don't need money to start your own government. All you need is a bunch of guys with guns to force others to do your bidding (even if that bidding is freedom & democracy for all - remember the Civil War).

      Keep in mind that government is, by definition, a monopolist on institutionalized violence. Everything else is secondary.

    36. Re:Who was he hurting? by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

      Sports betting is legal in Nevada, but it specfically illegal to accept bets from outside of nevada via phone, and i't specifically not legal to place bets outside of Nevada when In Nevada.

    37. Re:Who was he hurting? by ajlisows · · Score: 1

      I used to play Texas Hold 'Em Online a few years back on sites like PokerRoom.com and PartyPoker.com. I'm not talking large amounts...I'm not that good of a player but enjoy the game. Once in awhile I would buy $20 worth of credits and play a few $5 Tables and I would play the "Free Roll" (A free tournament where you can win a few hundred dollars). I actually won a decent sized tournament once and they sent me a check for $500. It was really no hassle.

      Anyway, the point is, one day I received an EMAIL from both of the sites saying that United States residents could no longer play for real money after . When that date came, I was curious to see how things would be handled. The Sites said that they would not mail checks to anyone in the states. I tried to buy Credits....Visa and Mastercard (I figured I'd buy a hat with the money if the transaction went through) wouldn't allow it.

      The point is, I don't even know if the individual states need to get on board. Get the credit card companies to not allow transactions to these places, get the larger gaming sites to comply and it is done. Can you still gamble online? Probably...if you are willing to pay Western Union to wire money to a smaller and probably less trusthworthy organization and hope that if you DO win they will actually send you the winnings. It is like gambling twice.

    38. Re:Who was he hurting? by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      Yeah, stupid people gamble. Smart people invest.

      And the result is exactly the same.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    39. Re:Who was he hurting? by MadAhab · · Score: 1

      Then pay your fucking taxes next time.

      You didn't make money without the existence of tax-built roads, taxpayer-sponsored police and fire departments.

      So pay your damn taxes and they won't confiscate it all.

      --
      Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
    40. Re:Who was he hurting? by metaforest · · Score: 1

      The 'Rez' is sovereign territory that the US Guberment does not have the jurisdiction to police.

      Kaplan interacted with Americans in US jurisdiction, essentially encouraging them to break the law by telling them that his operation was 'off-shore.'

      Now for the big one... Why does Nevada get to ignore Federal Gambling Statues?

       

    41. Re:Who was he hurting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes Very much so! The government is guilty of racketeering! they are a mafia. Ron paul would have slowed down the growth of the mafia.

    42. Re:Who was he hurting? by Jugalator · · Score: 1

      Sometimes, you guys are taking your geeky bitterness too far.

      No, my economy would be ruined today if they were exactly the same. Of course.

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    43. Re:Who was he hurting? by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      Look, I'd rather the gambling industry be heavily regulated, and rehabilitation to be offered to those who still become deadbeats. My point was that the argument "It's a victimless crime and shouldn't be illegal" relies on other people not being responsible for their bad decisions. If the taxpayers have to bear the brunt of one less productive member of society, on top of either paying for rehabilitation or welfare cheques, then the crime is not victimless. The taxpayers are the victims.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    44. Re:Who was he hurting? by twoHats · · Score: 1

      Really! and you can tell the objectivity of the law here ...'Gary Kaplan made millions of dollars by making it too easy for people to gamble away their hard-earned money'.

      Couldn't they have been winning some easily earned money?

      ...and how did he force those poor Americans to give up their lunch money so easily? Must be a real net wizard able to control peoples actions by tcp!

    45. Re:Who was he hurting? by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      I believe it's law against gambling "over the telephone". Being as nearly all internet passes over some kind of "communications line owned by a phone company" that makes all online gambling illegal by default (even if your state would allow it!). While the Feds can't regulate gambling (it's a state thing) they can pass a law against going around state laws.. and they regulate phone lines under the FCC.. there you have it.

  2. Online gamling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's illegal because it's illegal, regardless of whether it's easy to lose your money without leaving your house.

    1. Re:Online gamling by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      but it's not really that illegal. For years my local horse track had remote betting for other tracks... i.e. across telephone lines. The State lottery runs multi-state games that are real-time across multiple states.. again using telephone lines... The only people "online betting" is illegal for are the guys that founded it.

      They should have gotten a business method patent!!!

  3. Oh noes! by DurendalMac · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Gary Kaplan made millions of dollars by making it too easy for people to gamble away their hard-earned money without having to leave their homes"

    I can't be trusted! Protect me, nanny state!

    1. Re:Oh noes! by CoccoBill · · Score: 1

      ...where at least I know I'm free...

    2. Re:Oh noes! by HeLLFiRe1151 · · Score: 1

      So much for my "one-click gamble my life away" patent idea. Geez.

      --
      I've got 101 mod points and you can't have them!
    3. Re:Oh noes! by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      On average, you're fine.

      It's the people who want to be able to gamble from home (or anywhere, for that matter) who are, on average, less trustworthy.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    4. Re:Oh noes! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't be trusted! Protect me, nanny state!

      That's going to cost you!!!

    5. Re:Oh noes! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Protect me, nanny state!

      More like: "You need protection, and therefore we're taking your money. No, you don't have a choice."

  4. The real reason by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    'Gary Kaplan made millions of dollars by making it too easy for people to gamble away their hard-earned money without having to leave their homes,' said FBI agent John Gillies.

    The IRS was pissed it wasn't getting a cut of the action.

    --
    "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
    1. Re:The real reason by DigiShaman · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Oh, don't worry. They will get a cut of everyone's action once the new health care system allows for direct bank account access. This is just small peanuts in comparison.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    2. Re:The real reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the fuck are you talking about?

    3. Re:The real reason by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      Oh, don't worry. They will get a cut of everyone's action once the new health care system allows for direct bank account access. This is just small peanuts in comparison.

      I was going to say "people will switch to cash", but with a debt-based economy, who has cash any more?

      So I'll just posit that people will avoid high taxes by reverting to barter. "That kidney you want? It'll cost you an arm and a leg."

    4. Re:The real reason by porges · · Score: 1, Insightful

      He's spreading a right-wing talking point, debunked here, italics mine:

      Section 163 sets out goals for electronic health records. One of the goals is to include features that "enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation" between payment and billing. The legislative summary says the intent in the section is "to adopt standards for typical transactions" between insurance companies and health care providers. The legislation generically describes typical electronic banking transactions and does not outline any special access privileges.

    5. Re:The real reason by torkus · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, barter is subject to taxation legally.

      Generally no one pays the taxes and it's not easy to track so the IRS ignores it (for now).

      Trying to replace money with bartering? Welcome to...yep...tax evasion!

      --
      You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
  5. Realtors and bankers next? by Kupfernigk · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Surely this decision to plead guilty has opened the floodgates. If taking money off the gullible and statistically challenged is racketeering, now is the time to invest in companies that build prisons in the US.

    After all, Madoff was operating a Ponzi scheme. This guy told the gamblers the truth about what he was doing, and they gave him money voluntarily.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
    1. Re:Realtors and bankers next? by tomhudson · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The stock market *is* gambling. All the "technical analysis", etc., is just bullshit. It's a con game, as in "confidence game" - and when gamblers^Winvestors lose confidence, the system collapses, as we've seen. Ban shorts and derivatives, require that all investments be held for a minimum period of 3 months, and I'll start to believe that *maybe* there's some real investing going on.

    2. Re:Realtors and bankers next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure Warren Buffett would be very interested to discover that he is a degenerate gambler, and his tens of billions of dollars of net worth were attained by mere chance.

    3. Re:Realtors and bankers next? by SerpentMage · · Score: 1

      You are right the stock market is a speculation... BUT there is a big difference... You can beat the house. In a gambling institution you can't beat the house!

      --

      "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
      "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
    4. Re:Realtors and bankers next? by vbraga · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Graham and Dodd investing, like Buffet does, is very, very different than "technical analysis". It's really investing. TA and the likes are more like a casino.

      --
      English is not my first language. Corrections and suggestions are welcome.
    5. Re:Realtors and bankers next? by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      that's why the 3 month requirement. The problem now is that 75%+ of trades are "subsecond" trades made between when Somebody clicks "Sell" and YOU click "Buy" using automated systems. The same is true with Day Traders that try to do the process manually. While it does provide liquidity in that somebody is always willing to buy or sell, the majority of it is high speed betting, Day Traders lose their money just like gamblers, not calculated investments. The only thing that matters in business is the quarterly report... it's the only LEGALLY PUBLISHED document about company health, the rest of the stuff people use is hearsay, astrology, etc.

    6. Re:Realtors and bankers next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what an excellent opinion. you must raise your voice on the issue more to help a lot of innocent victims who got obviously hurt by those who shortsell, speculate using derivatives, etc. i would like to hear more on the issue from you, and if i may, i sense that you seem quite interested in making a fair profit on the stock market, and i have some very good idea on making money on the stock market. why don't we meet and sit down and talk over these things? i am very sure that you will be delighted.

      seriously, the stock market is a bullshit, but the biggest problem is not shortselling or the derivatives. the biggest problem is that it is not fullfilling its promise of being the market for capital. those speculators who employ a lot of schemes to win are also very problematic, but that part should be taken care of by the social system, including law making and enforcement, and such. that can be done relatively easily by a government, but what we really can't touch is human greed. go back to your post and think carefully why you are upset about shortselling and derivatives. these financial instruments should be tightly regulated, and many big speculators undermines the system back and forth, that is all true. but they are able to do it because they know there are a lot of folks out there who are willing to take easy money given chances. they can't exist without the folks who participate in the stock market without proper preparation. judging from the anger you expressed in your post, i bet you lost some of your fortunes in the market and looked around and found a few to lay the blame on. you are no better than those scumbags in the market. you actually helped those evils. you undermine the system just like those evil speculators.

      what makes the capital market evil is mind of participators. when you are willing to buy risk in return for possible capital gain, in other words, when the market participators are willing to be pure speculators, the capital market should work alright. the most major participators in these days are not willing to buy the risk, and thus they are evil. they however are able to take a lot of money from the market because there are folks like you who have no understanding of the market and fair games. i hate those who bend the rules, change the rules, break the rules. but i hate those who allow others to bend the rules, change the rules and break the rules more, and the worst kind is the folks who blame shortsellers, and the derivatives.

      please study and put some thoughts in your head. you sound really dumb. and the market does not owe you anything. english is not my mother tongue, please don't try to be the teacher of the language. have a good one.

    7. Re:Realtors and bankers next? by Kartoffel · · Score: 1

      You absolutely can beat the house in both cases, and in both cases if you beat the house too sorely they'll get upset and try to throw you out.

      Naked shorting in the stock market.... teams counting blackjack in a casino. Both can be done with tremendous profits, given the right discipline and organization. It's all about subverting the system.

    8. Re:Realtors and bankers next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I make a profit from my gambling (sports, horses, blackjack, poker). Maybe *you're* just another ignorant fuckhead.

    9. Re:Realtors and bankers next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you kidding? sports betting you absolutely can beat the bookie - bookies regularly cap sharp (skilled) players as to how much they can bet, or they'll get cleaned out. Some even refuse to take business from certain players.

      It's very much identical to the stock market - only the market is simpler and easier to understand. It's a future's market.

    10. Re:Realtors and bankers next? by torkus · · Score: 1

      You really have no idea what you're talking about. Your post is factually and conceptually incorrect on so many levels.

      "automated systems" aka matching engines don't put things up for sale like on ebay and someone else clicks the buy button. You put a sell/offer order in, someone else puts a bid/buy order in. Both have to exist PRIOR to an actual transaction. The matching engine does the 2+2 and you get your trade.

      'Sub-second' is actually a few 10's of milliseconds in ideal cases...which is NOT what your fancy etrade account will give you.

      Day trader refers to someone who makes stock trades full-time and, based on small fluctuations in the market aims to profit. They do NOT match sell/buy offers manually - you're thinking of the people who work on an exchange floor which are a dwindling minority at this point.

      Suggesting we take the liquidity out of the stock market would only serve to crash it. People invest because it's liquid, because they have access, because they can make money or bail out if things turn south. Who would invest in anything but the most solid and stable (which 99.9% implies extremely slow growth) companies? You'd do better buying bonds or CDs.

      Day traders have some things in common with gamblers, but there are also many key points that separate them. I'm not promoting day trading or the risks of the stock market, but it's very much NOT the same thing as spinning a roulette wheel.

      If you think a quarterly report is the only thing that matters in business you're sadly mistaken. 'Legally published' is a fantasy term. Any document a company publishes they are legally responsible for. Documents published about a company? Oh yes, someone is responsible for that too. How about, 2 weeks after a quarterly report when a companies blockbuster AIDS cure is unexpectedly shot down by the FDA...you should ignore it and wait to read about it next quarter? Come on. Without liquidity and WITH your 3 month rule you make it MORE like gambling, not less.

      Now, with that cleared up...I do agree the stock market has problems that are driving our economy in a ... less than ideal direction. Companies hold mass lay-offs essentially just to drive up stock prices. Companies marginalize employees, their benefits, compensation, value, and job security because it helps their P&L.

      --
      You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
    11. Re:Realtors and bankers next? by zsau · · Score: 1

      Realtors and bankers next? (quoting the subject for clarity)

      Hopefully! I think anyone richer than me should be sent to jail. Obviously they must've been cheating! (Notwithstanding the fact that I'm a student and have only worked full time for about a year.)

      --
      Look out!
    12. Re:Realtors and bankers next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have no idea what a Ponzi scheme is, then.

    13. Re:Realtors and bankers next? by shentino · · Score: 1

      You missed the part where he went bankrupt and screwed the winning customers out of their jackpots.

    14. Re:Realtors and bankers next? by shentino · · Score: 2, Funny

      The stock market is not gambling.

      Most of the folks who make the big bucks either ride it out for the long haul or are insiders.

    15. Re:Realtors and bankers next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps you missed the part where this is sports gambling? You aren't betting against the "house".

      The "house" takes a standard fee for the transactions, rather like your friendly local stock broker.

    16. Re:Realtors and bankers next? by ajlisows · · Score: 1

      While I do agree there is a gambling aspect to the stock market, there is a big difference. Those 50 shares of Company X you purchased at $20 a share may have plummeted to $5...meaning you "Lost" $750...but you do still have those stocks. They could rally back to $20...maybe next month, maybe next year. The $1000 you put down on "Red Bucket" to win the Horse Race is positively gone for good if Red Bucket doesn't win right there, right now.

      There is real investing going on, too. Every single person in the Country with a 401k through their company is playing the stock market game....just not in the Day Trader sort of way. I'm really not big on looking over all sorts of historic trends but I'm guessing that anyone that lets their money sit in a 401k fund (without panicking and taking it out at a horrible time or something) is going to make money above normal interest over an extended period of time.

    17. Re:Realtors and bankers next? by MadAhab · · Score: 1

      Half-insightful.

      In the case of a casino, it's kind of a crook if they throw you out for winning. It's their game, it's their fucking rules, if they can't handle them, maybe they are in the wrong business.

      In the case of the stock market, it's very bad for the entire market if exploiting the rules leads to an imbalance that causes a major meltdown. That's not good for anyone except the totally amoral. It's demonstrably bad for nations as a whole. So enforcement is necessary. With no rules, you exchange an engine for prosperity for a back-alley game of loaded dice.

      --
      Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
    18. Re:Realtors and bankers next? by MariusBoo · · Score: 1

      This argument is stupid. Speculators have a very important role in the main function of the market in a capitalism system: establishing the price. Short selling, derivatives, ethnically analysis are all very important tools used to reach that goal.
      If people were forced to always go long and only for the long run that would distort the market. Sure less people would lose money but also less will win.
      You can't outlaw losing money. You are not entitled to keep your money or to make a profit. The state should only help in providing equality of opportunity not equality of outcome.

    19. Re:Realtors and bankers next? by tomhudson · · Score: 1
      Buffet got his bailout.

      Warren Buffet Made Millions On Bailout: Reuters

      Were it not for government bailouts, for which Buffett lobbied hard, many of his company's stock holdings would have been wiped out.

      Berkshire Hathaway, in which Buffett owns 27 percent, according to a recent proxy filing, has more than $26 billion invested in eight financial companies that have received bailout money. The TARP at one point had nearly $100 billion invested in these companies and, according to new data released by Thomson Reuters, FDIC backs more than $130 billion of their debt.

      He was once the oracle, now he's just another corporate welfare pig at the trough. And a hypocrite.

    20. Re:Realtors and bankers next? by tomhudson · · Score: 1
      Like that fraudster Warren Buffet?

      Buffet got his bailout.

      Warren Buffet Made Millions On Bailout: Reuters

      Were it not for government bailouts, for which Buffett lobbied hard, many of his company's stock holdings would have been wiped out.

      Berkshire Hathaway, in which Buffett owns 27 percent, according to a recent proxy filing, has more than $26 billion invested in eight financial companies that have received bailout money. The TARP at one point had nearly $100 billion invested in these companies and, according to new data released by Thomson Reuters, FDIC backs more than $130 billion of their debt.

      He was once the oracle, now he's just another corporate welfare pig at the trough. And a hypocrite.

      Turns out his long-term investment strategy was just as much a gamble. How is he any different than anyone else who can't manage their money and ends up on the public dole? Oh, right, his welfare check is BILLIONS!

    21. Re:Realtors and bankers next? by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      you haven't been reading news lately, computer automated trades account for more than 70% of the volume on wall street now. When you click "buy" on E-trade they guarantee 5 minutes (or whatever), their broker's computer spends 4:59s buying and selling penny increments at less than 1 second per trade just below what you're willing to pay, just before it hands the stock to you. This where the "quants" equations come in trying to use data from the news and actual people making trades to "beat you to the punch" and score a dime or two in between your mouse clicks.

      It's all computers running bots over Google and when they hit a spot google, yahoo, bing reference themselves on a dud news item they all crash costing billions of dollars... and you think robots driving cars is bad?

    22. Re:Realtors and bankers next? by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      "Suggesting we take the liquidity out of the stock market would only serve to crash it. People invest because it's liquid, because they have access, because they can make money or bail out if things turn south"

      In other words, its for the quick buck, rather than investing in a business in the hope that it will grow and you'll eventually show a profit.

      Originally,

    23. Re:Realtors and bankers next? by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      Well, if the person engaged in a short position, and the price soared, they're screwed. Also, if they traded on margin, they can lose a lot more than their original investment - so when comparing stocks to gambling on horses, margin trading can make playing the ponies look conservative.

      The real problem is that the stock market no longer fulfills its' primary purpose - the raising of capital for business ventures. Making money off trading stocks has become more important than making money off the underlying business and collecting a share of the profits.

  6. Antigua can just the WTO to give them even more $ by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 0

    Antigua can just the WTO to give them even more $ in us IP now.

  7. What did he do wrong? by harmonise · · Score: 2, Insightful

    'Gary Kaplan made millions of dollars by making it too easy for people to gamble away their hard-earned money without having to leave their homes,'

    I'm still not sure what this guy did wrong other than offer a convenient service to gamblers.

    --
    Cory Doctorow talking about cloud computing makes as much sense as George W Bush talking about electrical engineering.
    1. Re:What did he do wrong? by Kierthos · · Score: 1

      Ever hear of tax evasion?

      The IRS doesn't like it when you have business in the United States and then don't pay taxes on it. Hell, tax evasion is how they got Capone.

      --
      Mr. Hu is not a ninja.
    2. Re:What did he do wrong? by torkus · · Score: 1

      Instead of "moving servers" he should have out-sourced to a wholly owned subsidiary. I believe that would actually have been legal with the right juggling of books.

      --
      You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
    3. Re:What did he do wrong? by HiThere · · Score: 1

      That's not what the summary claimed he was guilty of. They said "racketeering". You know, like offering businesses "Fire Insurance" in a threatening manner.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  8. His mistake by ArchieBunker · · Score: 3, Insightful

    His mistake was not leaving the US when he had enough money to live independently. That or he was too cheap and didn't "donate" to the right legislators.

    --
    Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    1. Re:His mistake by HeLLFiRe1151 · · Score: 1

      Wait, you don't think our legislators are corrupt do you? That's very un-American of you, you probably protest also.

      --
      I've got 101 mod points and you can't have them!
    2. Re:His mistake by whoop · · Score: 2, Informative

      Hillary (She IS the Secretary of State!) has said this week we are just as corrupt as Nigeria. Therefore, your politicians are fair game to take money.

    3. Re:His mistake by mabhatter654 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      He did leave the US shortly after the law was passed changing the legal status of his business. He's one of the guys where his flight between non-US destinations had an "emergency" and the DOJ "arrested" him at an "international" location outside the gates of US Customs.

      I always find it funny that it's OK for US corporations to leave when they don't like Taxes, Environmental laws, Labor laws, Executive responsibility laws, to places like Bermuda, China, Taiwan, Honduras, running their US business into the ground and wrecking jobs for tens of thousands, but his little "gambling" site involved the need to conduct international sting operations and illegally divert aircraft.

    4. Re:His mistake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lol and she's one to talk no less :)

    5. Re:His mistake by jcr · · Score: 1

      Hillary (She IS the Secretary of State!) has said this week we are just as corrupt as Nigeria.

      I seem to recall that her brother got paid rather well for arranging a pardon for some well-heeled fugitive.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    6. Re:His mistake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a stretch and troll to claim Hillary Clinton said the US is just as corrupt as Nigeria. What she did say was that US have recently had some election problems of their own, referring to the presidential election in Florida 2000. I do not think many would disagree with that statement. It was not very wise to bring it up in the context of Nigerian corruption but it's a long stretch from that to claiming the US is as corrupt as Nigeria.

    7. Re:His mistake by otter42 · · Score: 3, Informative

      I'm calling B.S. According to The Register article from the time, he was arrested at a hotel in Santo Domingo.

      You're getting this somewhat mixed up with David Carruthers, who *was* arrested at Dallas Airport, but while changing planes. Moreover, wikipedia reports that it happened while he was flying from the UK to Costa Rica. If this had been a CIA/FBI plot, like you insinuate, they would have picked a better spot than Houston, and there wouldn't have been a lay-over.

      I'll agree that the US is overstretching it's bounds here, but injecting misinformation and hyperbole into the conversation doesn't help anyone.

      --
      www.eissq.com/BandP.html Ball and Plate System. Amuse your friends. Crush your enemies.
  9. Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Games by curmudgeon99 · · Score: 1

    Betting on sports is a stupid move. Any form of gambling, be it lottery tickets, horse racing, cock fighting and the Stock Market--they are all equally foolish. Each of these forms of gambling exist to funnel money to the house. Anyone who is foolish enough to buy stocks, bet on football games, buy lottery tickets or step foot in a casino is a stupid fool who deserves to walk away penniless. What kind of foolish idiot walks into a casino in Las Vegas expecting to make money? I guess it's the same sort of dunderhead that forks over money on sports betting or who stands in line at a Quickie-Mart buying $10 worth of lottery tickets. Idiots all. The only part of this statement that is really controversial is including the Stock Market. Well, if you put your money in the stock market in the last 9 years, you would have done better keeping it in cash under your mattress.

  10. Lasting effect. by Vellmont · · Score: 1


    Today's guilty plea should have a lasting effect because Kaplan was not only the founder of BetOnSports, he was also one of the pioneers of illegal online gambling.'"

    Yup.. the lasting effect will be operations that are entirely offshore and run by people not U.S. citizens will take over the online gambling industry.

    The only effect here is to kill off the U.S. businesses that do this. Does the Federal Government really think it's going to stop every country with an internet connection from hosting a freaking gambling website?

    --
    AccountKiller
    1. Re:Lasting effect. by haruchai · · Score: 1

      A lot of folks have been pissed off by Bill Maher calling America a stupid country - and a lot of the same folks have spent the last few
      weeks proving him right. Sadly, too many of them are in the government.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    2. Re:Lasting effect. by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, they do. As idiotic as it may seem to someone who knows the internet and how it works, they are actually in the delusion that they can stop this. Their idea is that if it's illegal it is not done.

      What will happen? Of course, non-US residents will create offshore casinos. People will gamble there. So we'll get laws that make it illegal to gamble in other countries online (IIRC something like that already exists). People will ignore that law, knowing that the chance to be caught is minimal. Government will realize that people gamble abroad and will try to gain access to accounts to see if they get (or send) large amounts of money offshore. To do this, we'll need some sort of excuse. Something will be worked out that makes it necessary to gain access to the accounts of US people. In turn, those offshore companies will offer bank accounts offshore as well and people will put their money there. It's tricky to make it illegal to put money into foreign accounts, but I'm sure we'll see some legislation that makes it illegal to put money into certain countries. Companies will move their banking to other countries.

      So what we'll see is the race between companies offering a service and government trying to come up with creative laws that make it illegal to use those services without actually slaughtering the sacred cow of international trade and free commerce. Personally, I'd recommend getting some popcorn and enjoying the show.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Lasting effect. by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      That's why the CIA/DOJ has been going after the Swiss bankers lately. It look like this "terrorist" was on the list of people's accounts recently demanded by the US Government in violation of Swiss banking laws or they wouldn't have settled.

      On one hand I think it's a sovereign state, and the US has no business there. On the other, the banking lobby is so powerful they REFUSE to be bound by the law not to transfer to banks that the Feds can't monitor and refuse to play along to help catch terrorists. It's not tricky at all to stop money from going to Swiss accounts, make it illegal, just like it's illegal for US banks to transfer to these gambling sites, or to Iran. If the reporting bank won't answer legal summons about the owner of the account then make the transfer illegal, it's just as easy as hauling in guys for illegal gambling... and it could be quite lucrative to get some of the money US bankers have been managing after the bailouts back seizing lots of this money to balance the federal budget!

      On another hand, the Swiss bankers are bastards profiting off arms dealers, terrorists, drug dealers, mass murderers, war criminals, etc. When these people are caught or killed by governments, the Swiss are the ones laughing while illegally gained money nobody knows about pumps up their coffers.... and because the person doesn't live in Switzerland the basics of next-of-kin or reporting money to governments doesn't have to be followed when death notices are issued. Switzerland should have been the First target after 9/11 because THEY are how the various black ops and terrorists move their money around illegally causing suffering in the third world, creating and arming terrorists, when they won't return money dictators and criminals steal from struggling dirt farmers. Never forget 9/11 was an attack on a BANK not a military post, not some random landmark.

    4. Re:Lasting effect. by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      I think the issue there is that, if we did what Bill Maher thinks a smart country would do, we'd be an even stupider country. So, it's kind of a dick thing for him to say.

      It's like the early days of global warming "studies." Where one after another was provably shoddy science, but they kept beating the drum: our methods may be wrong, but our conclusions are correct. It doesn't matter if a statement you make is correct if you arrive at it by pure chance.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    5. Re:Lasting effect. by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Well, I don't know anything about Bill Maher ... I've never noticed the name before. But you've convinced me that his arguments might be worth looking at.

      O, and you've also convinced me that you know absolutely nothing a climate science and very little about statistics.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    6. Re:Lasting effect. by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Lemme put it that way, there's a reason why Switzerland and Liechtenstein managed to stay out of WW2, and it was not that they're so terribly full of hard to conquer mountains...

      Hey, you gotta leave a place alone to pump your money to, you never know whether you win or lose.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    7. Re:Lasting effect. by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Actually, there are ways to make internet gambling stop. The easiest is to allow credit card companies to keep any money bet using the card on a gambling site.

      Think about it.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    8. Re:Lasting effect. by ImNotAtWork · · Score: 1

      I watch Bill Maher but I take him with a grain of salt. He wants legalized marijuana but would enjoy legislating what you eat. The reason I watch him is he puts at least one person on either side of the issues being discussed. He actually stopped doing this a couple times this last season, probably guest scheduling problems, but has returned to his regular format. He also calls BS when he sees it which I like but he'll take something insignificant and blow it out of proportion.
      I'll call it entertainment with some truth sprinkled in. I particularly like when he has the Rolling Stone Journalist on.. now that guy should have his own show.

      --
      open source sub sim. I might start coding again for this. http://dangerdeep.sourceforge.net/contribute/
    9. Re:Lasting effect. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Smells a bit like good ol' privateering.

      Still not really a showstopper. As I said, legitimate (as far as that's possible) casinos will simply start cooperating with more or less reputable banks abroad where you may transfer your money to gamble then. You'll simply have an account at that bank, which has a "direct" link with the casino...

      The idea you offer isn't a bad one. The question is if the CC companies will fall for it. Because "well, you showed you can follow the money trail, from now on you're liable if anyone transfers money to someone committing $really_bad_crime" isn't far behind.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    10. Re:Lasting effect. by haruchai · · Score: 1

      His reasons for wanting pot legalized are largely self-serving - he claims to smoke ( or have smoked ) a lot of it. But, in addition, there's the issue about tobacco and alcohol being legal, but not marijuana - it doesn't make sense.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
  11. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good to see you're living up to your name. :D

  12. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Every form of investment is a risk, not just the stock market. Buying some of those safe US treasury bonds? Oops, the government decided to default on its debts, you lose. Deposit money in the bank? Oh dear, there was a run on the bank and your government decided it was not going to step in and guarantee depositors money, you lose? Money under the mattress? Oh dear, your house burnt down.

    So using your logic, anybody who keeps money in any form is a sucker!

  13. Victimless crimes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Not really a victimless crime if someone has a gambling addiction. And online gambling doesn't help prevent that lifestyle. But, if it's legalized and regulated, maybe there is hope, but setting limits on how much someone can gamble within a time period. Because, when that person becomes dirt broke, isn't it going to be a burden on our welfare system?

    1. Re:Victimless crimes? by Irish_Samurai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sorry, not buying it.

      Show me the PHYSICAL need to gamble. Show me the Gambling DTs. It's not a disease, its a lack of an ability to control yourself.

      I'm sick and tired of having options for my behavior limited because some fool can't control themselves. Why should I have a limit put on me on how much I choose to wager because someone else might "have a problem"?

    2. Re:Victimless crimes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Show me the PHYSICAL need to gamble.

      The physical need are the endorphins and adrenalin that are produced by the body in reaction to the gambling activity. Whether the chemical reaction in your body that you feel you "need" is triggered by ingesting or inhaling substances or by mental stimulation is irrelevant to whether or not something qualifies as an addiction.

    3. Re:Victimless crimes? by Carrot007 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Wheather a need is physical or psychological really does not matter and it is quite offensive that you would treat them differently.

      However as usual the solution is not to ban everybody from doing something because a few cannot control themselves. (which as far as I am concered applies to phsical addiction as much as psychological )

      The solution is to support these people and provide help.

      Your bias towards only caring about physical addiction and not about psychological shows the problems such people face and shows that until things change there is a need to ban everybody.

      Simply put you are your own worst enemy.

      --
      +----------------- | What is the question!
    4. Re:Victimless crimes? by SerpentMage · · Score: 4, Informative

      Please explain to me how this is applied to Las Vegas, Atlantic City and all of those other "legal" gambling institutions throughout America?

      Last I remember you show up with money in a gambling locale and they will let you loose it quite quickly...

      This is about the fact that the American government does not control the monies... Nothing more nothing less... I wish everybody could be honest about that!

      --

      "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
      "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
    5. Re:Victimless crimes? by Kierthos · · Score: 1

      And in those places, there are also government infrastructures to make sure that the slot machines and the roulette wheels and everything else is on the up-and-up. There are regulations in play saying what the tax cut to the local, state, and federal governments are.

      This guy was not paying taxes on this income. That tends to irk Uncle Sam just a wee bit. (Also, you may recall, tax evasion is how they brought down Capone.) Plus, because tax is based upon the business's income, which they were not reporting, there was the possibility that it was being used to launder money. (Hence the RICO act charges against them.)

      --
      Mr. Hu is not a ninja.
    6. Re:Victimless crimes? by jslater25 · · Score: 1
      They'll even let you lose your money quickly as well!

      On another note, I found this article rather interesting as yesterday I had received a pamphlet in the mail from BetOn Sports.

    7. Re:Victimless crimes? by garett_spencley · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Humans are volitional beings. Our very definition is "rational animal". We have free will and choose every one of our actions. We own our own bodies and our minds and thus we are "free" by nature.

      Therefore, if we develop an addiction to a substance or to a behaviour we have only ourselves to blame. The notion that fully grown adult human beings need a babysitter to make sure they don't hurt themselves is the most offensive concept ever known to man. And the most dangerous threat to freedom and liberty, which means the most dangerous threat to life itself. Freedom is a requirement of life. We are given our lives as a "gift of nature" but we are not given the means to sustain it. In order to sustain our lives we need to engage in certain actions. This is the concept of freedom and "rights". Rights are any behaviour that one might engage in to promote his survival and happiness. That means that no one has the ability to interfere with any action that I may choose to engage in, so long as I'm not interfering with another's ability to do the same. If that means doing something silly like excessive gambling then that's my own business.

      Psychological addiction to any behaviour or chemical is an evasion of personal responsibility, and ultimately a choice. Furthermore, it is not the "responsibility" or "duty" of anyone else to support, babysit or treat the person. All attempts to do so are ultimately doomed to fail anyway. Being a result of personal choices to begin with, the only successful "treatment" for addiction is the individual making a personal choice to make alternative choices. This is why a person who is addicted is not a "victim", and why treating him/her as such is a gross breach of the concept of self-ownership, and thus freedom.

    8. Re:Victimless crimes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You want to know what addiction is about? Try turning off your TV or Computer for a week. Just a week. Come back here and let us know how that goes. Thats what addiction is about.
      Addiction doesn't always have to revolve around psychical withdraw. . Much of addiction is habit based. Look at cigarettes. You aren't going to go into DT's if you quit. But quitting is a beotch. People who try to quit smoking often have trouble with the things that associate with smoking like driving a car. Ever known a smoker who doesn't light up when they fire up the engine? Cigarettes don't entirely fit this example perfectly because of nicotine, but in the example of gambling there is a trigger that causes a rush of dopamine. Just like in drugs it takes more and more to achieve the same high as before. Gamblers often started off with low stakes but will slowly but surely increase the stakes of their gambling to achieve the same rush they did when they started off with much lower stakes. If you try to take away the high there will be a psychological withdraw. No DTs, but just basic suffering. Its real.
      Like i said. Turn off the computer for a week. Remember, this is just a week. People who are addicted to porn or gambling are asked to refrain for life!

    9. Re:Victimless crimes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not really a victimless crime if someone has a gambling addiction. And online gambling doesn't help prevent that lifestyle. But, if it's legalized and regulated, maybe there is hope, but setting limits on how much someone can gamble within a time period. Because, when that person becomes dirt broke, isn't it going to be a burden on our welfare system?

      So, being an alcoholic should be illegal too?

    10. Re:Victimless crimes? by Jurily · · Score: 1

      It's not a disease, its a lack of an ability to control yourself.

      In Hungary, gambling is considered a form of greed, just like how Attention Deficit Disorder is called "boring teacher", and the proposed solution is not to drug the kids.

    11. Re:Victimless crimes? by nedlohs · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We also only allow people to buy a six-pack of beer a week, right?

      And only jog 30 minutes a day?

      And only eat 1 chocolate bar every 2 days?

      And only watch TV for 2 hours a day?

    12. Re:Victimless crimes? by grolaw · · Score: 1

      Agreed.

      But, who is to say that the games aren't rigged? There is room for regulation - of the provider, not the end user.

    13. Re:Victimless crimes? by torkus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wait, how can a firm based in costa-rica rig bets on boxing or horse racing? They can't any more than the "legal" betting venues such as OTB, vegas casinos, etc.

      I mean, even if you didn't RTA, the site itself is "betonsports".

      Tax evasion...yeah. Gotta love that one. It's nothing like extortion. (sarcasm) Pay us this % of your income or we arrest you.

      As for other online gambling - cards and the like, it's not exceptionally difficult to write a monitoring program to count cards and make sure things fall within proper probability parameters. I mean, you actually CAN'T do that in vegas. If you walked in with anything to count cards, measure odds, or even track ... anything on a casino floor you'd be ejected in minutes if not arrested. You have to trust the casino and government monitors. Does a dealer show you each individual card in each deck before they deal blackjack? Are you sure there's 20 aces in 5-deck blackjack? NO. In the end it's all...just a gamble.

      --
      You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
    14. Re:Victimless crimes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Along the way, you seem to have missed what the concept of a "society" is all about, and how important it is. Or maybe you prefer to ignore that society is there, because you think that you don't really have any use for it, or that it only threatens your beloved personal freedoms of which you think you are in full control. However, nobody lives in a vacuum and everyone is influenced by everything that happens around him/her, and all of that contributes to the choices that this person makes. And of course that includes actions of other people.

      All the talk about "survival and happiness" is also a bit strange in this context, since addicts are seldom happy (even while engaged in their addiction; don't confuse "happy" with "not thinking about how unhappy you really are") and addiction also seldom contributes to survival, especially in the long term.

    15. Re:Victimless crimes? by faffod · · Score: 1

      As per the summary (and article) the problem was that he used toll free phone lines to take the bets. That's illegal* and where he ran into problems. The casinos don't take bets over the phone. That's how it does not apply to the '"legal" gambling institutions'

      * I'm not saying I agree with this law, just answering your question

    16. Re:Victimless crimes? by faffod · · Score: 1

      He had operations in the US (phone lines) so it wasn't a firm exclusively outside of the US. Also, nowhere in the summary or article does it state tax evasion. I agree that he probably wasn't rigging the sports, but insinuating that it's government extortion should be done with the facts; argue that you don't agree that having a phone line in the US doesn't make you have a presence. Argue that you think that bets should be allowed over a phone line. Don't argue about made up stuff, at best it distracts from the facts.

    17. Re:Victimless crimes? by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but gambling is always rigged so that the casino always wins. You may win once or twice, but the odds are rigged so that the casino always makes money. About the only casino type game that doesn't have the odds tipped in the casino's favour is poker, Oh, and you can win at blackjack too. But don't start winning too much, or they'll kick you out of the casino. I would have to say that sports betting is probably the least rigged kind of betting one could do. At least there could be many long shots that would win. Because sports contain the human factor, there is always some kind of uncertainty on the odds. Much more so than with roulette or computerized slot machines.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    18. Re:Victimless crimes? by El+Torico · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You want to know what addiction is about? Try turning off your TV or Computer for a week. Just a week. Come back here and let us know how that goes. Thats what addiction is about.

      About 20 years ago my house mates and I all forgot to bring a TV set when we started a semester in college. For the first week, we were bitching about "what to do", by the third week, I had taken up racquetball and spent more time studying. By the end of the semester, I had lost weight, was in better shape, and my GPA went up. Each one of my house mates made similar improvements.

      --
      In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is usually crucified.
    19. Re:Victimless crimes? by HiThere · · Score: 1

      You can make that same kind of argument about ANY activity.

      I'm not saying there isn't some validity to the position WRT gambling, I'm saying that you need to justify it a LOT better. And I've never encountered such a justification that couldn't be applied to many other activities, from eating donuts to buying a fast car...or even to jogging.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    20. Re:Victimless crimes? by HiThere · · Score: 1

      It *is* extortion. But the government has given itself a monopoly on that, so that's fair...well, sort of fair.

      However it isn't clear that he was charged with evading taxes. What, exactly, is this "racketeering" that he was charged with? This operation doesn't sound like it falls within that spectrum. (Yeah, I only read the Slashdot summary.)

      I could see charging him with running an illegal gambling, but it sounds as if he may not have been doing so. (Illegal to do in the US doesn't mean illegal to do in Costa Rica.) And last I heard it wasn't illegal to have a phone line.

      I think they're probably using the provision of the RICO laws that says, approx. "If we say you're guilty, then we get to confiscate all your money and other valuables so you can't hire a good lawyer."

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    21. Re:Victimless crimes? by Luthair · · Score: 1

      By your logic people with OCD are simply 'making a choice'.

    22. Re:Victimless crimes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By your logic sports qualify as addiction as many feel the "need" to get the adrenalin and endorphins.

      And many destroy their health, family and social lifes just to get that "kick".

    23. Re:Victimless crimes? by garett_spencley · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Society" simply refers to all of the actions and choices of individuals. There can be no "we" without the "I". Just because the benefits of social participation are obvious to anyone does not mean that the needs of "society" (which is an abstract concept) trump the needs of the individual (which is a concrete).

      Society does not threaten the freedoms of the individual. Other individuals who violate the non-aggression-principle do.

      Furthermore, I never claimed, or even implied that addicts were happy. I specifically claimed that psychological addictions are an evasion of personal responsibility. A choice to engage in harmful activity. And that freedom means the ability to make choices concerning your own person. Every single addict knows that he is harming himself. Yet he values his destructive behaviour over the alternatives. There are many possible reasons that he may do so, but none of them impose any sort of duty on other individuals to offer help. I also specifically pointed out that any attempts to offer help are doomed to fail unless requested, because the "addictive" behaviour is a choice. The addict claiming that it isn't (a choice) is a further evasion; a way to escape his personal responsibility.

      No one can have a "right" to the productive efforts of others. That is slavery. If you feel that anyone "owes" society anything then you are admitting that every person is a slave to everyone else. I see no evidence of that, and overwhelming evidence to the contrary. The body is only one part of the human. No one can read or control another's thoughts. No one can make decisions for the individual. You even chose the word "influence" in the context of decision making, acknowledging this fact. Coercion may influence my decisions, but ultimately only I can make those decisions. I can choose death over submission to any oppression and for that reason it is a law of nature that I cannot be owned by another individual, let alone "society".

    24. Re:Victimless crimes? by garett_spencley · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're confusing desires with action.

      Free will is almost synonymous with "resisting temptation". Which is why addiction advocates tend to argue so much in favour of the "disease" concept, and why their arguments tend to reduce to the notion that free will is an illusion.

      I actually have a mild form of OCD. I'll check to make sure that I have my driver's license before getting in my car and then 10 seconds after leaving the driveway I feel the need to double-check and then triple-check etc. I even do the cliche checking that my front door is locked 20 times every night. But those are desires and whims. I can (and often do) choose to think back on when I first checked to make sure that I had my license and then reassure myself "Garett man, you're being paranoid. You already made sure you had your license. Chill out." Yes, it's all choices. I have the desire to eat a whole cheesecake to myself right now, but I choose not to because I recognize the negative consequences of doing so. Desire vs. action.

    25. Re:Victimless crimes? by grolaw · · Score: 1

      And, your point? I took enough stat not to have the slightest interest in casino games. I've also noted that the casinos have very high profit margins and that there are very few people wheeling out wheelbarrows full of winnings. The house is always the favorite and the "gaming industry" exists because of the loss ratio.

      The reason Poker has become such a big draw recently is that it is impossible to cheat at Hold em.

      None of this takes the Christian / Right Wing out of our bedrooms and our bodies and our ability to lose money to something that they can't make a buck off of. "Keep government off our backs" my muscular buttox. Those creeps nearly ruined this nation and I want it back. Tax Churches, not on-line services. You lose your money any way that you want.

      Damn, I wish I'd thought up that prayer app for the iPhone!

    26. Re:Victimless crimes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, or hold your breath, or not drink water, or even stop eating for a while, then you'll see what addiction is! I bet you can't even hold your breath for a few hours, not to mention a few days... Within minutes you'll start to feel the physical addiction you have to oxygen, within the hour, if you don't get your "hook up" and breath it in, you might even die...

      There is no such thing as addition, there is only choice. I choose to spend my time on the internet so that I can read and learn. But I am an animal, and so are you, and animals tend to procrastinate and do as little work as they can, thus wasting time on the net or watching tv... It's not an addiction, it's choice, your inability to admit to yourself and take responsibility for your own stupid actions was the reason why people "made up" the word addition, just like people's inability to admit to themselves and accept the fact that they are mortal, that they hate others of another race, that they are animals... made them create the word religion... so they can blame the events around them on something other than themselves...

    27. Re:Victimless crimes? by jahudabudy · · Score: 1

      No one can have a "right" to the productive efforts of others. That is slavery. If you feel that anyone "owes" society anything thren you are admitting that every person is a slave to everyone else.

      Nonsense, people have a right to others' productive efforts all the time. If you and I make a $5 bet, and you lose, I have a right to your productive efforts as represented by $5.

      Now, admittedly, in my little example, you willingly obligated yourself. The benefits you have accrued from society are a little bit grayer, b/c you didn't initially choose to benefit from society - your parents did when they chose to raise you in a society. Plus, it is not nearly as clear-cut to whom and to what degree you have accrued an obligation, b/c we can't quantify exactly which benefits and to which degree society has provided these benefits to you. But you most likely have benefited somewhat from society; perhaps you disagree, but I think this imbues you with a moral obligation to return some benefit to "society", i.e. other individuals. How you choose to do so and to what degree should be your choice, but to equate this moral obligation to your fellow humans with slavery is so wildly exaggerated as to seem merely self-serving rationalization.

      --
      ...sometimes, in order to hurt someone very badly, you have to tell that person terrible lies. - PA
    28. Re:Victimless crimes? by Whuffo · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, you've fallen into the same trap that many other philosophers have. When you call humans "rational animals" you're conveniently ignoring the simple fact that we're animals - and as animals we have been well equipped by nature with various instincts and drives that cause us to act in specific ways. If you were more insightful, you might discover that much of your rationality is spent rationalizing things you've been compelled to do by your nature.

      This is why your relationships are so full of trouble - your natural instincts compelled you to find a mate and made her look like a goddess. But once you've fulfilled your biological imperative you then get to see her for what she really is and disaster ensues.

      If you understood these things you'd be able to choose a suitable mate before instinct chose one for you. And you'd be able to avoid the addictions before they took hold. But you're a subscriber to the "humans are perfectly rational beings" story and you'll suffer for your incorrect assumption for the rest of your life.

    29. Re:Victimless crimes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think an important counter point to your point would be states rights. A community has the right to determine that a certain behavior is improper for its jurisdiction and can thus ban it. That is why this country is such a patchwork of laws there is very little that is identical across all jurisdictions. The plus side of this is that if you don't like the laws where you currently reside you can move somewhere else, this creates competitions between areas to both be the best at protection rights and people, not to mention lawyers get to do lots of billable research hours. On the other hand you have to hire lawyers to make sure every t is crossed and i dotted and may have no idea what your current legal status is.

    30. Re:Victimless crimes? by guyminuslife · · Score: 1

      I didn't really get your point, but that's okay, I'm out the door on my way to buy a lottery ticket.

      --
      I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
    31. Re:Victimless crimes? by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

      We're talking about sports betting. If the games are rigged (and there have been cases where they have been), then it's a HUGE deal, and completely unrelated to internet sports betting.

      With sports betting you know the odds before you make the bet. There's no way the house can "cheat" because it's based solely on who handicaps the game better (or in many cases, blind luck.. like a major crash in NASCAR takes out the top 10 drivers.. even the worst driver can win). The real risk in online sportsbooks is that the book disappears and takes your money with them.

      Online casinos are a different story, and those can't be trusted at all. Online poker is a little more trustworthy, but there are also cheating scenarios there too, and the house has an advantage to see more "drama hands" because they generate bigger pots and larger rakes.

    32. Re:Victimless crimes? by grolaw · · Score: 1

      So what? If fools want to spend money this way - it isn't my problem.

    33. Re:Victimless crimes? by garett_spencley · · Score: 1

      Your confusion stems from the belief that one person's gain is another's loss. That people cooperate altruistically for the selfish benefit of others. Which may be true for some misguided individuals who believe that such an existence of self-sacrifice is moral, but I do not subscribe to such a belief because 1) I do not recognize such a system as being compatible with human nature and 2) As a consequence of #1 such a philosophy is evil. Altruism is a system that constantly demands the surrendering of a value for a lesser one or nothing (the very definition of "sacrifice"). Such a system is incompatible with life itself.

      In a free (and moral) society people must deal with each other through voluntary exchange. Value for value. The contract does not negate what I said, it only reinforces it. Such a society is a "contract society".

      As humans we employ logic and reason to perceive the objective world around us and act accordingly to promote our survival. Historically speaking, coexisting with other humans increased each individual's odds for surviving in a hostile environment. Once the concepts of "time" and "saving" were well-formed the development of agriculture became possible and soon after goods were routinely exchanged for the mutual benefit of the exchangers. Soon people began specializing in producing only what they were good at, and exchanging their surplus for the rest of their needs rather than producing everything themselves. Consequently (but secondary), such a system maximized the benefits for everyone, because more production was possible. Economically speaking, maximizing production increases abundance which lowers costs which maximizes distribution. It is not a consequence of people "giving back to society". It is a consequence of acting to promote one's own selfish interests (i.e: maximizing personal profit by producing the largest possible quantity of what is in demand at the lowest cost possible).

      The fact that people operate this way does not impose any obligations of any sort on any individual. It means that if you want something from another person the only way to go about it, morally, is to exchange. Thus all "moral obligations" are cleared at the time of the exchange. So I can agree with part of what you said, if you take from others you owe them something. But your confusion rests with the belief that everything that you have is a gift. This is simply false. If you have a job you are producing value to exchange for everything that you acquire and consume. Morally speaking your balance is clear.

      If anything, you may try and claim that we owe our parents something. But that's the extent that you can take it. They produced goods and services to exchange (or provide directly) for the means to sustain our survival. So "society" is well-paid. However, dead-beat parents and extremely problematic children aside, most parents that I know were more than repaid for their voluntary service by the fact that they gained loved ones to share their world with. I've often joked about providing my children with a bill once they turn 18, but I won't. Because my kids were a joy and the means employed to help them grow into adults is a debt that is more than repaid by the wonderful relationship that I will have with them until the day that I die, and the experience of parenting which is an experience that I felt worth having. They don't owe me anything.

    34. Re:Victimless crimes? by megrims · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Solved any other eternal questions with your sample-set of one?

    35. Re:Victimless crimes? by easyTree · · Score: 1

      Why should I have a limit put on me on how much I choose to wager because someone else might "have a problem"?

      Perhaps you haven't heard; we're all identical and so we need a set of laws which treats us as such.

    36. Re:Victimless crimes? by easyTree · · Score: 1

      Umm, isn't this a well-known phenomenon? i.e. What you appear to be holding-up as apparently absurd is in fact an accurate explanation of what occurs when we exercise.

      Disclaimer: I am not a biochemist / neuroscientist.

    37. Re:Victimless crimes? by Jurily · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The physical need are the endorphins and adrenalin that are produced by the body in reaction to the gambling activity. Whether the chemical reaction in your body that you feel you "need" is triggered by ingesting or inhaling substances or by mental stimulation is irrelevant to whether or not something qualifies as an addiction.

      Would you ban chocolate because some people are fat?

    38. Re:Victimless crimes? by easyTree · · Score: 1

      Do you subscribe to the idea 'if my room-mate catches <fatal airborne virus>' ?

      Presumably not and guess what? It's the same scenario - we all live in a shared reality (unless evidence to the contrary is discovered :) - just as people's biases come out when they choose their words, their needs come out when they choose their actions. If someone is unable to manage themselves to the extent that they are able to buy food to sustain themselves, their need to survive is going to mandate some kind of action which will probably result in your loss if you are in the vicinity.

      Take this to its logical conclusion and the most self-serving thing one can do is to do one's utmost to ensure that *everyone* in society has everything they need, physically, emotionally, intellectually, .. in every 'need-dimension'.

    39. Re:Victimless crimes? by easyTree · · Score: 1

      Do you subscribe to the idea 'if my room-mate catches <fatal airborne virus> it's not my problem' ?

      Presumably not and guess what? It's the same scenario - we all live in a shared reality (unless evidence to the contrary is discovered :) - just as people's biases come out when they choose their words, their needs come out when they choose their actions. If someone is unable to manage themselves to the extent that they are able to buy food to sustain themselves, their need to survive is going to mandate some kind of action which will probably result in your loss if you are in the vicinity.

      Take this to its logical conclusion and the most self-serving thing one can do is to do one's utmost to ensure that *everyone* in society has everything they need, physically, emotionally, intellectually, .. in every 'need-dimension'.

      Uhh... fixed that for myself.

    40. Re:Victimless crimes? by Alpha830RulZ · · Score: 1

      With sports betting you know the odds before you make the bet.

      And, as a side note, some statisticians I know made a pass at using data mining and predictive modeling to see if they could beat the line, and found that they couldn't. The published line on games is apparently a pretty good example of crowd-sourcing working.

      --
      I was taught to respect my elders. The trouble is, it's getting harder and harder to find some.
    41. Re:Victimless crimes? by grolaw · · Score: 1

      I'm as liberal as they come. I simply don't believe that the government ought to criminalize certain "vices."

      Social services to help the families and the individual who spends too much (like a judge did in my community - and she is in jail - not receiving treatment) are fine by me.

      Consider me an extreme social liberal - let everybody do their own thing within reasonable limits - like red lights, right-side driving, vaccinating and educating your children.... libraries, fire and police.

      But leave the "gamers" and hookers and soft-dope dealers to the public health sector, we have shown that police and criminal charges don't accomplish anything valuable. They destroy lives.

    42. Re:Victimless crimes? by metaforest · · Score: 1

      Nice twist on Atlas Shrugged. Ayn Rand much?

    43. Re:Victimless crimes? by Thanshin · · Score: 1

      About 20 years ago my house mates and I all forgot to bring a TV set when we started a semester in college. For the first week, we were bitching about "what to do", by the third week, I had taken up racquetball and spent more time studying. By the end of the semester, I had lost weight, was in better shape, and my GPA went up.

      Imagine if you had forgotten to bring everything else.
      For the first week, you'd be bitching about "what to eat", by the second week you'd be hunting with your bare hands and trying to make a bow with a branch. By the end of the semester you'd be a muscular hunting machine, dressed with furs and eating your preys' hearts, still alive and beating.

      Now, instead of posting in slashdot, you'd be howling to the moon.

      Or you could've gone back to take what you forgot.

    44. Re:Victimless crimes? by faffod · · Score: 1

      The article explains (the summary doesn't) that it is illegal in the US to take a bet over a phone line. Doesn't matter that he was in costa rica, he had offices in the US that were handling phone calls for taking bets. If you don't like that law, get it changed; but don't just ignore it and then say it's extortion.

    45. Re:Victimless crimes? by JosKarith · · Score: 1

      Every few years something like this is suggested. Government likes nothing more than imposing its will on the people under the guise of "You don't know what's good for you, we do." as part of training us to just simply accept what they say without question.

      --
      'Don't worry' said the trees when they saw the axe coming, 'The handle is one of us.'
    46. Re:Victimless crimes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2 hours of TV yet... In some years, it going to be on 24/24 and it will watch you too.

    47. Re:Victimless crimes? by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Were the people who took the bets in Costa Rica? If so then the action didn't take place in the US.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    48. Re:Victimless crimes? by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      > Now, admittedly, in my little example, you willingly obligated yourself.

      Ding, ftw!

      > he benefits you have accrued from society are a little bit grayer, b/c you didn't
      > initially choose to benefit from society - your parents did when they chose to
      > raise you in a society.

      Those "little societal benefits" are the result of freedom and free people interacting.

      I'm tired of government interventionists (for lack of a better term) glomming onto this and claiming it as their own. They aren't talking regulation here. They're talking that the $5 is really a little bit better than $5 because of the quality of the society.

      Yes. Exactly my point.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    49. Re:Victimless crimes? by DarkMage0707077 · · Score: 1

      I started to do without movies and TV in general about 3 years ago because I was getting bored. As of now, I am saving additional money which I'm putting away in my savings account, having already used it to help get myself out of student debt sooner. I also have a clean appartment, clean and wrinkle-free clothes without going to the dry cleaner, and have taught myself to cook so my health has improved. I've also started a weight-lifting regimen a couple of weeks ago, and have missed only one day so far. Not to mention that I have more time to get online and search for w-browse Slashdot.

    50. Re:Victimless crimes? by faffod · · Score: 1

      No, the people were in the US, using US phone lines, that connected to offices in the US. From there they were redirected overseas, but having residents of the US call an office in the US can hardly be considered actions that didn't take place in the US.

    51. Re:Victimless crimes? by Espressor · · Score: 1

      I agree with your point, but just to be the Devil's Advocate here: the consequences of addiction to chocolate are not exactly as bad as those you get from cocaine or heroin addiction. That being said, I dislike that harmless substances like cannabis are forbidden whereas alcohol isn't.

  14. That's illegal? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Cheating people who can't rub two brain cells together and engage in betting schemes where anyone with a hint of knowledge of the system has to know it can't be a zero sum game over time, that's illegal?

    Round up investment bankers and stock brokers!

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  15. Cognitive dissonance masquerading as insight by wheelema · · Score: 1

    The statement by FBI agent John Gillies that 'Gary Kaplan made millions of dollars by making it too easy for people to gamble away their hard-earned money without having to leave their homes' is utterly nonsensical. Where is it written that gas companies and automobile manufacturers must get their cut on one's journey towards bankruptcy?.

    1. Re:Cognitive dissonance masquerading as insight by Kartoffel · · Score: 1

      Yep. When are they going to arrest Ben and Jerry for "making it too easy for people to get fat"?

  16. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I am a statistician (says my degree at least). Yet, on occation, I buy a lottery ticket and visit a casino. Fully aware that my chance to win is minimal compared to the chance that I lose. It's a game. It's fun. It's a cheap little thrill. It's nothing I'd put my last 5 bucks on.

    The problem isn't so much that people engage in gambling. It's not really a problem unless you plan to make money that way. As long as you see it as a pastime and realize that it's basically a pastime like so many others where you pay to do it, from playing paintball to collecting stamps, there's no problem.

    It becomes a problem when people live in the delusion of having a "system" to beat the house and make money that way. It does not work. It simply cannot. If there was such a thing as a "system", casinos and lottery company would have folded a long time ago.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  17. Yeah, right by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

    Gary Kaplan made millions of dollars by making it too easy for people to gamble away their hard-earned money without having to leave their homes

    Thank goodness for the extra effort required to walk into a gas station to buy a state-run-lottery ticket.

    I'm glad the FBI is thinking of the children.

  18. oh good heavens not gambling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the devil's dice are wicked praise jesus the pope is the whore of babylon

  19. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by tomhudson · · Score: 3, Interesting

    What kind of foolish idiot walks into a casino in Las Vegas expecting to make money?

    The owners, the loan sharks, the payday lenders, the cops, the employees, the hookers, the blackmailers ...

    As for the stock market, it's legalized gambling only if you're too small to control the market. That's why the small fish get eaten alive every pull-back.

  20. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by tomhudson · · Score: 1

    It becomes a problem when people live in the delusion of having a "system" to beat the house and make money that way. It does not work. It simply cannot. If there was such a thing as a "system", casinos and lottery company would have folded a long time ago.

    You know that card counters have an advantage over the house in blackjack? That's why the casinos will kick you out if they think you're counting cards - they just want people who can't count to "play."

  21. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by forkazoo · · Score: 1

    Betting on sports is a stupid move. Any form of gambling, be it lottery tickets, horse racing, cock fighting and the Stock Market--they are all equally foolish. Each of these forms of gambling exist to funnel money to the house. Anyone who is foolish enough to buy stocks, bet on football games, buy lottery tickets or step foot in a casino is a stupid fool who deserves to walk away penniless. What kind of foolish idiot walks into a casino in Las Vegas expecting to make money? I guess it's the same sort of dunderhead that forks over money on sports betting or who stands in line at a Quickie-Mart buying $10 worth of lottery tickets. Idiots all. The only part of this statement that is really controversial is including the Stock Market. Well, if you put your money in the stock market in the last 9 years, you would have done better keeping it in cash under your mattress.

    If I spend 20 bucks to see Star Conflict Robot Murderers IX at a movie theater, and get the overpriced popcorn and a giant 174 oz soda, I'm making a rational value judgment to spend money on entertainment because I feel I get adequate value of entertaining.

    If I spend 20 bucks over the course of two hours at a casino, I'm stupid fool.

    A stupid fool who probably talked to a stripper instead of a dork dressed up like Colonel Robokillbot showing off his "real lights and sounds" robo laser chainsaw that he ordered online for $499.

    Personally, I don't actually gamble. And, I'd expect not to have much in common with the hypothetical stripper if I did wind up talking to her for some implausible reason. But, if somebody makes a different value judgment than I do with their money, that doesn't automatically make them wrong. It doesn't automatically make them a foolish idiot. Most people spend money on things that are demonstrably of no real value. Gambling has the odd quirk of demonstrably having potential value. That value is rare enough that gambling is clearly a net cost on average, despite the occasional zillion dollar win.

    At least with poker, and to a lesser extent, stocks and sports bets, there is a genuine skill element involved which means that you can potentially learn the game well enough to turn a profit. It's just the random chance games where you are guaranteed to lose in the long term.

  22. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If you can count 6+ decks, you can make more money with "honest" work...

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  23. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by SerpentMage · · Score: 1

    Sorry while the stock market as the appearance of gambling its not quite the same.

    Here are differences:

    1)

    If I put down a dollar in a casino I either win or loose, its a binary.
    If I put down a dollar in the stock market I have the choice of getting my money back at a later point in time at a loss or gain. It is not binary.

    2)

    If I bet on red I have odds that red might win.
    If I buy a stock based on analysis X I have a probability that I can go home with a gain at my discretion.

    3)

    Casinos work on randomness
    Stock markets are not random. They appear random and to the layman seem random, but are not random.

    If you had put your money in the stock market in the last 9 years you would have lost. Ok how about the last 20 years? You would have made money. If you had shorted you would have made money. If you had sold premium you would have made money. The list goes on...

    People who say think that there is only one way to make money in the stock market. In fact there are many ways, you just have to know what to do and when.

    --

    "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
    "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
  24. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by Tacvek · · Score: 1

    Yes. With a few minor exceptions. Poker can be won, since you are not playing against the house.

    Blackjack can be won in theory due to counting, although that will be spotted quickly, and one will be asked to leave.

    Lastly, under lab conditions a few people have been shown to be able to assert a level of precision in throwing craps die to be able to gain a slight advantage. The problem with this one is that in real world conditions additional variables hamper this, and in any case the advantage is so small that it would take more time to earn significant amounts of cash that way then to take a regular job, so the casinos are not worried about that.

    But yes, no betting based system will give you an advantage over the house.

    --
    Stylish sheet to fix many problems in Slashdot's D3: https://gist.github.com/801524
  25. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Betting on sports is a stupid move. Any form of gambling, be it lottery tickets, horse racing, cock fighting and the Stock Market--they are all equally foolish. Each of these forms of gambling exist to funnel money to the house. Anyone who is foolish enough to buy stocks, bet on football games, buy lottery tickets or step foot in a casino is a stupid fool who deserves to walk away penniless.

    Your comment shows you have a gross misunderstanding of everything you mentioned. Most of the people who gamble do it for fun - and don't risk their savings. People are aware of the risks when they gamble, and they choose to do it anyway because they enjoy the thrill. This does not qualify said people as stupid or foolish. If a guy spends £10 on a bet instead of £10 on another luxury (say beer for instance) he at least has a chance of making some money. The chance and % of ROI may not be great (depending on his bet obviously) but buying £10 of beer will just give you really expensive piss with a close to 0% chance of any ROI. Unless of course, you trade it on the piss market.

    People who are willing to take a chance on something for fun or for profit are the people I like to spend my time with. People who never take a chance are generally in my experience, not very fun to be around and don't get where they want to be in life. You probably only live once - take a chance and enjoy it! DISCLAIMER: as long as it is not at the expensive of your family's well being etc.

    But back on topic. This whole saga seems pretty ridiculous to me. Can't adults just be held responsible for their own actions? If people choose to spend all their money on fixed odds gambling, it's probably not a sensible choice of investment (unless they win millions of course...) but it's still their right to make that choice with their own money.

    Oh wait, what am I saying. *puts on modern political thinking hat* Clearly, these people need to be protected from themselves. I mean, if we don't make the choices FOR them they might go ahead and make the wrong ones and actually gain wisdom from the experience!!11!11!1

  26. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by hieronymus · · Score: 1

    Sports betting is not a "sucker game" if what you mean by that it is not beatable. Betting on sports at 11-10 odds (Bet $110 to win $100) as is normal for most sports bets involving a point spread requires the bettor to win 52.5% of his / her bets to make money. While most people do not, the game is beatable. Doing so online involves risks like the government seizing your payouts and other stuff that raises that hurdle. Poker is another game that is also played online that is very beatable by skilled players.

  27. Despite the fact that by Dunbal · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The World Trade Organization has found in favor of Antigua, and states that the US is in violation of the law by making online gambling illegal just because it wants to protect its brick and mortar casinos...

    However the US threatens others with the UN, WTO, sanctions, military force when it wants to, and ignores those organizations when they become "inconvenient". And then Americans wonder why they are hated everywhere. That's ok, keep printing those dollars (the Federal Reserve is now the biggest purchaser of US treasuries - imagine that), propping up that bubble and lying to the public with imaginary "inflation" and "employment" figures, America. The whole house of cards will come down soon enough.

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    1. Re:Despite the fact that by WindowlessView · · Score: 4, Informative

      it wants to protect its brick and mortar casinos...

      And the state lotteries. They are up to their eyeballs in the online crackdown.

      --
      Leave the gun, take the cannolis.
    2. Re:Despite the fact that by shacky003 · · Score: 1

      "And then Americans wonder why they are hated everywhere..."
      It amazes me how people tend to think that just because our US government tends to do stupid things once in a while (ok these days a lot..) and the
      masses think it is the general every-day American citizen that is at fault.This is the same for most governments - You elect the people who make promises
      to fix this, that, whatever - or to keep the current principles at the top of the collective list - Sometimes they do what they say, sometimes they run into much
      much more resistance than they thought they would before they actually got into that glass box, and sometimes they flat out lie to get elected.. As it happens
      to be, the US government has had quite a bit of world power, so it's easy to make dumb statements like what you just did. If it wasn't the US at the top of
      whatever, it would be another country, with people saying the same thing about them when their government gets high/mighty/power hungry, etc..

      I doubt if you are in another country, your wondrous land is universally liked by everyone. Stating that people hate US citizens everywhere is ignorant.

      It's that ignorance that tends to blame all citizens of a country because of something stupid their government does (btw, they do the same to their own people buddy..)

    3. Re:Despite the fact that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      America has noted your protests and will get back to you after "Dancing with the Stars" is over.

    4. Re:Despite the fact that by St.Creed · · Score: 1

      True.

      The Dutch government is currently embroiled in basically the same fight, trying to get the internet providers to ban access to online gambling sites as well. They've *also* been found guilty of trying to protect their own monopoly and discriminating against other European organisations trying to provide gambling sites.

      Greed is not exclusive to the US Government.

      --
      Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
    5. Re:Despite the fact that by JSBiff · · Score: 1

      I think the US is being consistent here - while they may allow casinos, they don't allow anyone, if I understand correctly, to run online gambling. No one in the US can run online gambling legally, so why should it be legal for people in other countries to run online gambling businesses that do business with people in the US.

      If Antigua or anyone else wants to open casinos within their own territory, the US isn't doing anything to stop them. If Antigua wants to offer gambling to people in other countries *other than* the USA, and those other countries make it legal (or it's already legal), fine.

      As for why Americans are hated everywhere, I really doubt it has much to do with online gambling. While I'm sure your right in the general sense (that America is viewed as arrogant because they have ignored UN or WTO rules or rulings; i.e. unilateral war in Iraq, and I'm sure many other examples of *serious* things), I really doubt many people really care about this *particular* issue.

  28. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by garett_spencley · · Score: 1

    More importantly, stocks are a claim to partial ownership of a company. Thus buying stocks is an investment in a business venture. There is always risk in business, but successful entrepreneurs minimize their risk by researching their markets and filling an unfilled need, or filling a need better than anyone else.

    While a stock-owner does not make all of the same decisions that an entrepreneur does, they do play a vital role in the economy by funding ventures that are producing goods and services that are in demand.

    Most people think of the stock market as gambling because they confuse investing with speculating. Many stock-traders do speculate by purchasing stocks that they believe will go up in price (with the intention of selling them when they do), or short-selling stocks that they believe are about to go down*. However, the VAST majority of stock-holders are investors who put their money into carefully researched companies with the intention of earning dividend yields. Here the risk is minimal and while the returns are not as high, the investor stays liquid and acts more as a lender. Lending only to those companies that have a good track record and operate in "safe" markets (traditional examples of "safe" markets are commodities, raw materials, natural resources, public utilities etc.)

    * Short selling means borrowing a stock from a broker, selling it at it's current price and then buying it back at a lower price. Since you only owe the broker the stock, not it's original value, you return the stock to the broker and pocket the difference between the original price you sold it at, and the lower price you bought it back at.

  29. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by maxume · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Plenty of people enjoy the gambling to the extent that it is worth the losses to them (Personally, my actual gambling is limited to the occasional Mega Millions ticket, but only when the expected value of the ticket goes above the cost, it is fun to fantasize about absurd wealth once in a while).

    As far as the stock market, you can actually bet with the house (buy an index fund). The last 10 or 15 years certainly have been miserable, but good investment advice pretty much starts with "don't invest money that you might need short term access to in stocks"; that advice gets roundly ignored (people in their 50's and 60's frequently have huge exposure to equities, when they shouldn't), but that doesn't change the value of the advice for people that follow it, so 10 years of poor market performance is easy to view as an opportunity to buy...

    Even Jim Cramer, a guy a lot of people view as a loudmouth tool of the bad guys, starts with advising people to take out insurance against catastrophes (good medical insurance and disability insurance, to protect against illness and loss of income, which are much bigger considerations for retirement than good investment performance) and to conservatively invest their retirement assets (the title of his show "Mad Money" is a reference to money that the particular investor can afford to lose, and thus can take larger risks with).

    --
    Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  30. Re:Antigua can just the WTO to give them even more by Kartoffel · · Score: 1

    Help, I just accidentally my sports betting website! Is this bad?

  31. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by Kartoffel · · Score: 1

    Oh, there most certainly are "systems". If you (ab)use one to profit at the house's expense they'll break your kneecaps (or charge you with racketeering).

  32. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by zippthorne · · Score: 1

    Most people only think they can count cards. The casinos love those people, and sell them books on card counting in the book store.

    If you "make too much" they might notice you, I suppose, but they will probably refuse service to anyone who's not losing money over a long enough time period, regardless of method, just-in-case. They're private businesses. They can refuse service to whomever they wish. Although I suspect they let a few "career card counters" go on for a while. Those guys are the kernel of stories about beating the casino that gives their real customers false hope.

    The real scam is the poker tables. The casino risks none of its own money on the poker tables, yet feels entitled to a percentage of every pot? WTF?

    --
    Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  33. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by LogistX · · Score: 1

    Sorry while the stock market as the appearance of gambling its not quite the same.

    Here are differences:

    1)

    If I put down a dollar in a casino I either win or loose, its a binary.
    If I put down a dollar in the stock market I have the choice of getting my money back at a later point in time at a loss or gain. It is not binary.

    2)

    If I bet on red I have odds that red might win.
    If I buy a stock based on analysis X I have a probability that I can go home with a gain at my discretion.

    3)

    Casinos work on randomness
    Stock markets are not random. They appear random and to the layman seem random, but are not random.

    If you had put your money in the stock market in the last 9 years you would have lost. Ok how about the last 20 years? You would have made money. If you had shorted you would have made money. If you had sold premium you would have made money. The list goes on...

    People who say think that there is only one way to make money in the stock market. In fact there are many ways, you just have to know what to do and when.

    1. Clearly you have never heard of a binary option. There are other derivatives that have very close analogies in the gambling world.
    2. If I buy a sports betting ticket based on my analysis that team A will beat team B X% of the time, how is this any different than "investing" in an option based on similar analysis.
    3. Not everything in a casino operates off of randomness and not everything in the stock market isn't random. Sports are not random, but to a laymen they can appear random. I can bet on sports in a similar fashion to the way that based on analysis I can bet on equities or commodities. Blackjack appears random, but past cards can help predict future cards and that is why the game is beatable. There are lots of ways to make money gambling -- it isn't as simple as betting red or black and praying to the gambling gods to shine on you.

    An argument can be made that stock investing is not exactly like gambling due to the partial ownership of the company. However, derivatives ARE gambling. Plain and simple.

  34. Pioneers? by YourExperiment · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Kaplan was not only the founder of BetOnSports, he was also one of the pioneers of illegal online gambling.

    Gary Kaplan may have been a pioneer of online gambling, but it took the U.S. government to pioneer the wonderful concept of illegal online gambling.

    1. Re:Pioneers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kaplan was not only the founder of BetOnSports, he was also one of the pioneers of illegal online gambling.

      Gary Kaplan may have been a pioneer of online gambling, but it took the U.S. government to pioneer the wonderful concept of illegal online gambling.

      and... boom goes the dynamite.

  35. Re: That last part by maxume · · Score: 1

    The Pentagon is not a bank, it is a landmark military post, and it was also attacked on 9/11.

    9/11 was an attack on the institutions of the United States in general, not simply an attack on a BANK.

    --
    Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  36. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by nedlohs · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The real scam is the poker tables. The casino risks none of its own money on the poker tables, yet feels entitled to a percentage of every pot? WTF?

    The provide a nice playing table and chairs. They provide nice cards and chips. They provide a dealer who vaguely knows the rules. They provide a public location with security to find people to play with without having to sit in a private location with strangers and large sums of money. They provide an unbiased party for dispute resolution.

    And they don't always feel entitled to a percentage of every pot, pay by the hour isn't that uncommon.

  37. I have a great idea about gambling and the law! by timothy · · Score: 1

    It should be a very, very serious crime to force anyone to gamble on sports or anything else, including the stock market or tomorrow's weather.

    That's it! The other gaming ("gambling") laws should all be tested against this one, and should be tossed if violating them does not involve forcing someone to gamble.

    No questions? Alright, I'll be in my office today, and office hours as usual on Wednesday.

    timothy

    --
    jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
  38. Why can't we let US based casinos have on line bet by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    Why can't we let US based casinos have on line betting? they want to have it and you can't fix sports like you can with on line porker, slots, and black jack.

  39. Dumb people by mwvdlee · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Gary Kaplan made millions of dollars by making it too easy for people to gamble away their hard-earned money without having to leave their homes

    Betting, which allows dumb people to broke themselves, is illegal.
    Guns, which allow dumb people to kill others, are still legal.

    --
    Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    1. Re:Dumb people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're far too shortsighted.

      Sure, gambling might cause somebody to go broke, but that person might have a family, kids to feed, mortgages to pay off, etc. When a kid drops out of school and goes into minimum-wage labor because his dad's a gambling addict, tell me that gambling is something that people only hurt themselves with. It's like any other addiction. There's always collateral damage, and it can really have a negative effect on society.

      The right to bear arms is in our bill of rights. Do you know why? Or are you one of those Americans who don't know anything about being American? The fact is, when push comes to shove, the only way you can protect yourself is with lethal force. Think about it. When some foreign country is making nuclear weapons with the intent to harm your country, what does your country do? Pass sanctions? Pass regulations? Post some sort of strongly-worded press release? No. They march in, and physically take away the nukes in question, and physically prevent them from making nukes. Without guns, there is no fallback in case of a threat.

      I'm not going to go into the relative merits of guns and gambling, but black and white is far too simple-minded.

  40. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by Inda · · Score: 1

    I lost a fiver on the English football today. Out of the 10 bets I made over the weekend, I won 3 of them but, most importantly, I lost the last one of the day. I'll probably lose another fiver next week and the week after that. These one pound bets hopefully wont bankrupt me.

    I wont play the lottery though because the odds are rubbish. The odds at a bookmakers is the game. If the bookmaker has it wrong then this where my money goes. And believe me, they do get it wrong often. If only I could gamble with hindsight!

    In the UK there is no such thing as a poor bookmaker and we all know it. You can even be the bookmaker on some websites but I'm not a hardcore gambler, so this is not for me.

    --
    This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
  41. Re:Antigua can just the WTO to give them even more by sakdoctor · · Score: 1

    Why do people so often the verb when posting online?

  42. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by torkus · · Score: 1

    Do tell. There are several counting systems that, while not simple, are not exceptionally difficult. If you were allowed unrestricted use of one (even if you have to count entirely in your head) there's the obvious potential for exponential profit.

    I would love to know how I could make 7 figures in a job I could do any time i wanted, an hours i wanted and, given internet gambling, from anywhere i wanted.

    --
    You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
  43. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by torkus · · Score: 1

    ...or to put it more simply: The stock market is FAR more complex than most of the people comparing it to gambling even suspect. Investing in the 'market *IS* still a risk but it's one so complex it's impossible to put actual odds on.

    --
    You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
  44. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, if you would have kept the stocks all this time.  Why would you though.

    In june 2003 I bought 10k worth of stock.  It was money I saved up over quite some time, without other purpose than well, saving up some money.  In december 2005 I sold the stock for 15k.  That's 5k in 2.5 years - tax free!.  Then I put that into savings accounts and got about 4% interest on it - taxed!, until april this year.  I think I got about 2.2k interest over that period, roughly 3.5 years.  I moved it to a different account twice, paid a small amount of tax, and took everything above 15k to finance fun stuff ;-)

    April this year, I bought 15k worth of stock.  It's now worth about 18k.  I don't *know* what the stock market is going to do, but I assume that if it'll drop down somewhat again because the recession takes longer and so on, it will just take half a year or a year more to make my profit... so in that case the savings account would win for 1 year... I don't care...

    Right now though, I'm at about 100% profit in about 6 years, most of which from stock, and in the big scheme of things we're still right after a crash. I'm not getting rich, it's not a big bang,  but I am still very pleased with the results of my fooling around with 10k... I don't compare to the DJ index, or what I could have gotten *if*... but I compare to a savings account...

    It *will* crash again... I probably won't have stock then... And buy them again.  That time I'll probably be using some of this profit to buy calls with expiration date 18 to 24 months into the future, and see if that'll work too.  It would have worked wonders both in 2003 as during this 2008 crash... ;-)  That would really be speculation, gambling if you want to say so ;-) It's a lot less risk than calls for a shorter time though, and might either cost me 5k, in which case I'll still end up with more money than interest on a savings account would have gotten me in the same time, or turn the 5k into 10k-18k in half a year...

    If you're looking for a quick buck right now I can't tell you what to do... I'd be too busy doing it... But if you can do without the money for a couple of years, I think now is still a good time to buy some stock, and be pretty sure you can sell it at a nice profit after a couple of years, then put the money somewhere safe till next crash.  It won't drop down far from *this* point :-)

    I have done so, I am doing so, and it works for me.  It's a fun hobby this way, and as a bonus some of my friends think I'm crazy...  because among them, I'm the only one looking *forward* to the next crash!

  45. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by HiThere · · Score: 1

    They supply the table, the cards, the room, the dealer... Why do you think they shouldn't be entitled to a profit? One might argue about the SIZE of the profit, but please be reasonable.

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  46. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Depending on the people you play with, having someone who has no interest in the outcome of the game who provides cards and location is already something that might allow you to end up in a fair game...

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  47. Re:Why can't we let US based casinos have on line by HiThere · · Score: 1

    Actually, sports contests can and have been fixed. The prevalence of that was one of the reasons betting on sports was originally made illegal.

    Mr. Kaplan probably couldn't have fixed sports. He was too small time an operation. But the Nevada casinos... well, it may be just as well that they AREN'T allowed to have on-line betting on sports.

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  48. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by nedlohs · · Score: 1

    But there was more than just "fair". There was also your game not being robbed by guys with guns who heard about it somehow. Which could also happen at a casino, but the security is better and there's juicier targets than the poker table.

  49. Senate to introduce bill to lift ban by ImNotAtWork · · Score: 1

    Those that are ahead of the curve usually get burned at the stake.

    http://www.nasdaq.com/aspx/stock-market-news-story.aspx?storyid=200908051805dowjonesdjonline000841

    --
    open source sub sim. I might start coding again for this. http://dangerdeep.sourceforge.net/contribute/
  50. You are not a medical doctor. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Then, please, stop your ignorant, uninformed and idiotic opinionating on matters of which you clearly know nothing about.

    I will not waste my time refuting your lame assertions, I just wish to flag to others that people that actually know about this topic would address the matter properly, such points of view are easy to find in order to balance the nonsense the parent poster just ejaculated.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  51. He invests in companies making money. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    Companies that actually pay dividends.

    Most other people "invest" in share appreciation, which is speculative in nature.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  52. Santo Domingo ..... by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    In which US state is that?

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
    1. Re:Santo Domingo ..... by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      one of the ones on this half of the blue sphere Monroe and Truman said we had dominion over. And I mean dominion in the "biblical" way!!!

  53. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

    There are systems, you're right. But they are all losers. None of them work, because you can't beat the math.

    One common system is to double your bet every time. Eventually, the theory goes, you will win and double your money (except you wouldn't, because it would only give you a small extra amount of money back when you factor in all the lost money). The problem with this system is table limits. if you're exponentially raising your stake, you will hit the cap pretty quickly and then you're REALLY stuck.

    The problem with most systems is that they seem to work at first glance, but if you keep track of your winnings and losings over time, you will always come out a loser.

  54. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

    Contrary to popular belief, most bookmakers don't set their line based on who will win or lose. Instead, they set their line in such a way as to attract equal action on both sides of the game. Then, they make their money on "the juice", the difference between the favorite and the dog. The bookmaker then acts as an agent moving money between the two sides, taking his cut. If he's done his job right, then he's at no risk of losing any money.

    There are some risks though. Some people may not pay (that's why many books are "postup" which means you give them the money first, others are "credit" stores).

    Sometimes a bookie "gambles" though, and sets his line in such a way that will attract business to the other side of what he thinks will win. Or maybe he just won't get enough action on one side or another, and he will try to "lay it off" with another bookie.

    In any event, any bookie that goes out of business is either gambling or robbed.

  55. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by Kartoffel · · Score: 1

    That example's an "inside the box" system, and one based on flawed math to boot.

    The profitable tricks subvert how things normally work. They're hacks. Any slashdotter ought to appreciate that, right?

    The thing is, exploiting loopholes tends to piss off those who own the thing being exploited. When done to excess the exploit can change the way the game is played or even ruin the game for all the players. Case in point: naked shorting works... it just wrecks the market you do it in.

  56. Re:Antigua can just the WTO to give them even more by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

    Because they should back to /b/.

    --
    Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
  57. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by Bigby · · Score: 1

    Not if you are playing with millions of dollars.

  58. Who can/can't legally provide gambling? (US) by neo · · Score: 1

    Can:

    * In most states, your local church can do bingo. Believe me when I tell you that it's gambling.
    * The state itself my set up a monopoly on lotteries, some in collusion with other states.
    * Some states allow gambling establishments to particular parties, often hand picked by officials, to run organizations.
    * Considered non-US, but inside the borders of the US, Indian Reservations.

    Can't

    * Average citizens who do not have political or financial clout enough to purchase licenses.
    * Anyone attempting to provide gambling from outside the US by any infrastructure (phone, internet, etc)

    Gambling is very profitable, but the profit doesn't come from what you think it does. It's not the 10% margin on bets. That's a nice thought, but it doesn't wash. Gambling is profitable because people gamble to a loss margin. For example I may go to Vegas and $2000 with me. I'm likely to play that money away. I won't stop at $200. I'll keep playing until that entire bankroll is gone. I may even win $500 on a $10 bet, and this is what I'll remember. The easy money I made... but most would gamble that away too. It's not 10%, it's 10% compounded per bet. This is why there are limits on the kinds of bets that get you a 50/50 split. When you bet on black, you are limited much more to the amount you can bet than you are if you bet on 00 even though the pay-out is less.

  59. Re:Lottery, Stock Market, Gambling--All Sucker Gam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh yeah, because 'remembering' is so highly sought after, they automatically add a zero to the end of your paycheque :P.

    Besides... you don't have to memorize the entire deck... just start at zero and increment mentally each high card, decrement each low card.

  60. Who was *really* hurt? by plnix0 · · Score: 1

    The people really hurt by this were the proprietor, his sister (the government stole $7-million from her, according to the article I read (not this FA)), and the close to one million customers who had accounts with BetOnSports. All told, the US government stole about $50-million from about a million people.

  61. I have a question... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Say a company builds a site for something that is legal (say sports bets) and regulated in a country where I am living in (say Algeriabeckistanbulzuela). And US citizens use this site to place bets. This makes the company liable? Obviously I am missing something here. Someone care to explain the rational here? I would really appreciate it.

    Too Lazy to register since too lazy to remember.