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Relativistic Navigation Needed For Solar Sails

KentuckyFC writes "Last year, physicists calculated that a solar sail about a kilometer across with a mass of 300 kg (including 150 kg of payload) would have a peak acceleration of roughly 0.6g if released about 0.1AU from the Sun, where the radiation pressure is highest. That kind of acceleration could take it to the heliopause — the boundary between the Solar System and interstellar space — in only 2.5 years; a distance of 200 AU. In 30 years, it could travel 2500AU, far enough to explore the Oort Cloud. But the team has discovered a problem. Ordinary Newtonian physics just doesn't cut it for the kind of navigational calculations needed for this journey. Because the sail has to be released so close to the Sun, it becomes subject to the effects of general relativity. And although the errors these introduce are small, they become magnified over the course of a long journey, sending the sail roughly 1 million kilometers off course by the time it reaches the Oort Cloud. What these guys are saying is that if ever such a sail is launched (and the earliest estimate is 2040), the navigators will have to be proficient in a new discipline of relativistic navigation."

50 of 185 comments (clear)

  1. Computers? by Extremus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    the navigators will have to be proficient in a new discipline of relativistic navigation.

    Probably you are trying to say that the computers will have to be proficient in this new discipline.

    1. Re:Computers? by FooAtWFU · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Probably you are trying to say that the computers will have to be proficient in this new discipline.

      It's not that hard, either. Just math. We have the equations. They're well-understood. Some physics grad students could probably write the basic engine for such an endeavour. I'd worry more about $UNKNOWN_EXOTIC_EFFECT pushing something off-course.

      --
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    2. Re:Computers? by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Even if you get pushed off course, you get to discover $UNKNOWN_EXOTIC_EFFECT =)

    3. Re:Computers? by sabt-pestnu · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'd be more worried about simple things like...

      Kilometers-to-AU translation errors (nobody would be using "miles" in their calculations, now would they?)
      cumulative floating point rounding errors
      antenna positioning failure

      There are more than enough problems that could re-occur, before you start looking for new ones.

    4. Re:Computers? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 3, Informative

      Probably you are trying to say that the computers will have to be proficient in this new discipline.

      It's not that hard, either. Just math. We have the equations. They're well-understood. Some physics grad students could probably write the basic engine for such an endeavour. I'd worry more about $UNKNOWN_EXOTIC_EFFECT pushing something off-course.

      You mean, something like the Pioneer anomaly?

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    5. Re:Computers? by OwnedByTwoCats · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's what I get for posting before whipping out the calculator. The acceleration needed to go 200 AUs in 2.5 years is only 9.5 E-3 meters/second. Or around .001g. I don't trust my calculus any more, but integrating the acceleration over that time is in the ballpark.

    6. Re:Computers? by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And who's going to stop you once you've got to 0.6g ? last time I've check there was no friction in vacuum.

      "Once you've got to 0.6g"?

      g is acceleration! c is velocity!

      1g is the rate of acceleration due to gravity on Earth 9.8 m/s^2. 1c is the speed of light, 299,792,458 m/s.

      If you don't put in more energy, you're gonna stop accelerating, friction or no friction!

      --
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    7. Re:Computers? by spazdor · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The ideal time to make that discovery is not when you're kissing the Sun from 0.1 AU away.

      Let's start with unmanned probes, hey?

      --
      DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
    8. Re:Computers? by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 2, Informative

      (Damn summary.) G is acceleration. g is grams.

      1G is acceleration due to gravity at the surface of the Earth, 9.8 m/s^2.

      An object in motion will stay in motion unless acted on by an outside force.
      An object in acceleration will cease to be in acceleration when the outside force is removed. As the force reduces, the acceleration reduces.

      0.6G means if you stand with your head in the direction of acceleration, you'll weigh 3/5ths your weight on Earth.
      0.6c means you're moving 3/5ths the speed of light.

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    9. Re:Computers? by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's a solar sail. Without significant solar thrust, it _will_ drag against the interstellar gas, and it's likely to gain mass as it does so.

    10. Re:Computers? by ByTor-2112 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Pfft, and give up the chance to have an unknown exotic effect named after you? Small price to pay my friend! Did you think all those crazy radiations and particles from Star Trek were named after unmanned probes???

  2. One part in 37 million... by argent · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One million kilometers sounds like a big number, until you realize that 2,500 AU is 3.7 * 10^11 kilometers. So that error is one part in thirty seven million. I suspect that accumulated errors from variations in light intensity due to sunspots and flares will be a bigger problem.

    1. Re:One part in 37 million... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      You mean one part in 370,000, but on the whole you're right. The unfolding speed of the solar sail, or its random deformation during travel will have a higher impact. What a stupid article.

    2. Re:One part in 37 million... by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Unless we have some specific target in the Oort Cloud that we aim for at the beginning of the trip, with no course-corrections, this is pretty much meaningless.

      And with essentially unlimited ability to maneuver, course-corrections aren't going to be an issue, really.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    3. Re:One part in 37 million... by R2.0 · · Score: 4, Funny

      I would think that the Oort cloud itself would be the destination. Theoretically, the distribution of rocks is pretty even, so we should be able to get data no matter where in the cloud the probe goes. If it gets to that random point and finds either nothing, or a whole lot, we need to change the theory, don't we?

      Remember, Columbus set out to sail to the Indies, not land in Mumbai harbor. Of course, if we follow that example the probe will crash into Neptune and we'll declare it a new comet, but the general principle is the same.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    4. Re:One part in 37 million... by Idarubicin · · Score: 2, Informative

      And with essentially unlimited ability to maneuver, course-corrections aren't going to be an issue, really.

      I agree with the posts which note that the relative magnitude of the navigational error is trivial (a million kilometers in 2500 AU is the same relative error as one kilometer on a trip to the Moon). I also fully agree that any expedition to the Oort would be a random crapshoot anyway.

      I do have to quibble with the notion of 'essentially unlimited ability to maneuver', however. The amount of thrust available decreases with increasing distance from the sun. (Indeed, it falls off as the inverse square of the distance.) If our hypothetical sail starts off at 0.1 AU from the sun for maximum thrust, its acceleration will be down to 1% of its original value as it crosses the Earth's orbit, and less than 0.04% when it crosses Jupiter's orbit. At Pluto's orbit, the probe will be able to call on less than a hundred-thousandth the amount of sunlight it saw when it started. In other words, errors in course selection which take place early will accumulate for the longest, and will be most apparent when the least thrust is available for correction.

      --
      ~Idarubicin
    5. Re:One part in 37 million... by khallow · · Score: 2, Informative

      Unless we have some specific target in the Oort Cloud that we aim for at the beginning of the trip, with no course-corrections, this is pretty much meaningless.

      Why call it the "Oort Cloud" if there's nothing in it? My view is that such solar sails would be first used for Kuiper Belt targets and the heliopause (the latter not needing trajectory accuracy aside from making sure the probe heads away from the Sun). Later as we discover targets in the Oort cloud to investigate, probes could be sent out in this way. It's also good for interstellar missions. These velocities provide a good first stage boost. Accurate trajectories might greatly reduce the propellant consumed to correct the trajectory to another star.

  3. Re:You knew what this mission was when you signed by SBrach · · Score: 2, Funny

    They are relatively better at the calculations??

  4. Shouldn't this be irrelavent... by Churla · · Score: 2, Funny

    Wouldn't this be completely besides the point as long as we keep enough spice in their tanks? They can always just think their way back on course.

    --
    I'm a fiscal conservative, it's a pity we don't have a political party anymore
  5. What else is new? by jarocho · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Pioneer 10 has been off-course for a while now. Maybe the trick for reaching the Oort Cloud is to aim for 1 million kilometers to the left.

  6. Re:Wont the accleration decrease with distance by UnHolier+than+ever · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The acceleration, yes, but not the speed. That is why the sail has to start so close ot the sun, it needs it to accumulate most of its speed.

    The reall question will be: how does it stops? I doubt it can use the gravitational slingshot trick at these speeds using only comets.

  7. Is this that important? by MiniMike · · Score: 5, Insightful

    sending the sail roughly 1 million kilometers off course by the time it reaches the Oort Cloud.

    Is there a specific part of the Oort Cloud they want to go to?
    If this ability is needed to travel to other planets accurately, then it seems important. For the Oort cloud, not as much.

    .

    Will this solar sail be going at a speed that will allow it to do any useful observations, or are we just going to watch for the flash when it 'finds' something at that speed?

    1. Re:Is this that important? by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wrong.

      The solar wind force is essentially outward (in the solar wind direction) only. (The particles initially stick to the sail and then are released, if at all, by a different mechanism such as electrostatic repulsion.) And the portion of the light that is absorbed by the sail also produces an outward force.

      But for a mirror-finished solar sail the portion of the light that is reflected (most of it) gives the vector sum of the momenta of its arrival and the recoil of its departure. So tilting the sail to reflect sunlight forward along the direction of orbit gives a strong deceleration and lowers the orbit.

      --
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  8. Manuvering system for a sail..... by jameskojiro · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Would that be an RTG powered ion thruster? or do you make holes in the sail that are opened and closed by tiny articulated motors?

    --
    Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
  9. Mid-course corrections? by vrmlguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No space craft has ever been aimed accurately. At various times during the mission, you look at where you are and where you're supposed to be, and make a correction to your trajectory. Is there some reason why this won't work with a solar sail?

    --
    Nothing for 6-digit uids?
    1. Re:Mid-course corrections? by clintp · · Score: 2, Informative

      And isn't starting at the Sun and aiming for a point in the Oort cloud complicated by the N-body problem anyway? Course corrections will have to be done for the entire trip because of all of those large chunks of rock and gas floating around. Gravity's a bitch, man.

      --
      Get off my lawn.
    2. Re:Mid-course corrections? by autocracy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It can't work like a sailboat does... steering partly into the wind, or changing the sail angle to alter the thrust exerted. There's no resistive force to work against, so it just kind of goes where it is taken.

      --
      SIG: HUP
    3. Re:Mid-course corrections? by onkelonkel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why not? Reel in the shrouds on one side and lengthen them on the other and the whole sail is tilted with respect to the capsule, and you start to change course. You can't tack (I think) but a broad reach should work.

      --
      None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
    4. Re:Mid-course corrections? by WhiteDragon · · Score: 3, Informative

      It can't work like a sailboat does... steering partly into the wind, or changing the sail angle to alter the thrust exerted. There's no resistive force to work against, so it just kind of goes where it is taken.

      However, tacking with the solar sail is still possible.

      --
      Did you mount a military-grade, variable-focus MASER on an unlicensed artificial intelligence?
    5. Re:Mid-course corrections? by jpmorgan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Of course there's resistive force. It's called gravity and most people, when they think about space travel, vastly underestimate it's strength.

      Do not forget for one instant that your solar-sailship is in orbit around something. You aren't using your solar sail to overcome the sun's gravity and drift off into the outer reaches of the solar system... there's a term what happens when a star is generating enough radiation pressure to overcome its own gravity: a supernova. Travel by solar sail (and any other modern propulsion system) is based on giving a gentle nudge to your orbit so that eventually you swing by where you want to be.

    6. Re:Mid-course corrections? by khallow · · Score: 2, Informative

      Of course there's resistive force. It's called gravity and most people, when they think about space travel, vastly underestimate it's strength.

      Gravity is not a resistive force. A resistive force is a force that acts opposite the motion of a moving object. Gravity is an attractive force between masses independent (in the Newtonian model in which it exists) of the motion of the masses. I think GR has an extremely weak resistive force in that gravity waves carry away some energy from masses moving near one another.

  10. Just how big is the Oort Cloud? by Eevee · · Score: 4, Funny

    From Wikipedia, "The Oort cloud is a hypothetical spherical cloud of comets which may lie roughly 50,000 AU, or nearly a light-year, from the Sun." So...um...how do you miss it? You go straight out in any direction. When you see a lot of icy chunks floating around, you're there.

    1. Re:Just how big is the Oort Cloud? by Minwee · · Score: 3, Informative

      So...um...how do you miss it? You go straight out in any direction. When you see a lot of icy chunks floating around, you're there.

      I think that watching The Empire Strikes Back may have given you the wrong idea about just how densely packed objects like asteroids and comets are in our solar system.

      Consider this. Get your own envelope and pencil if you want to follow along at home. The inner boundary of the Oort cloud is at about 5,000 AU, or 750 billion km from the Sun. The outer boundary is expected to be somewhere around 100,000 AU or 1500 billion km. Inside that volume are an estimated twelve billion objects. Nobody has been able to count them, but Jan Oort guessed that there would be that many and no astronomer has been able to contradict him yet.

      That gives us a total volume on the order of 10^28 km^3, with just 12,000,000,000 objects in it. That's 10^18 km^3 for each object, giving you an average distance between objects of at least a million kilometers. A million km is three times the distance from the Earth to the Moon, and the size of a cometary nucleus is on the order of ten km. You'd be lucky just to see a 10 km object at that distance, let alone see it well enough to justify the trip out there.

      That means that if you're aiming for an object in the Oort cloud but miss by up to a million km, you're going to sail right through empty space. You won't narrowly dodge between densely packed cometary bodies, rolling and weaving to avoid laser blasts, and then have to hide inside the belly of a giant space worm while the Empire searches for you. You'll just pass on by and miss everything.

      Real astronomy isn't nearly as exciting as Star Wars, but that's probably good news for everyone who lives in our galaxy.

    2. Re:Just how big is the Oort Cloud? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, if they're roughly a million km apart, and you miss one by a million km... you're in the vicinity of another one.

      Now missing by *half* a million km... that'd suck.

    3. Re:Just how big is the Oort Cloud? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2, Funny

      Asteroids do not concern me, Minwee. I want that ship, not excuses.

    4. Re:Just how big is the Oort Cloud? by larry+bagina · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No one has contradicted him? More like no one has any evidence whatsoever that there is an oort cloud, much less that his guess is right or wrong.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

  11. Much ado about nothing by djcinsb · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's more likely that the flight engineers would just add course corrections in (i.e. change the sail orientation to redirect the force) if they had a specific target in the Oort cloud in mind.

    Just as small errors due to GR get magnified over the long trajectory, so do small corrections get magnified if made early enough. And, as one earlier commenter noted, a million km isn't much of anything at these distances.

    --
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  12. How are you making your course corrections? by JSBiff · · Score: 2, Insightful

    2 thoughts come to mind:

    1) If the solar sail is your means of propulsion, do you include some sort of 'conventional' rockets to make your course adjustments? Can course adjustments somehow be made with the sail itself? It's not like a ship with a solar sail has a rudder. If not with the sail, how are you making those corrections.

    2) Efficiency - getting the correct path to start with means you'll get there sooner. Perhaps a LOT sooner, because making course corrections might have the effect of slowing down spacecraft some, and even if you don't have to slow down the craft, making course corrections implies you are not taking the most optimal route. But, hey, what's a few extra AU between friends? Oh yeah, that's right, it's the difference between getting the craft to the correct place, and having it shoot by a few hundred million kilometers off to the side. I'm sure no one will mind if that multi-billion dollar space mission gets lost in space having missed it's objective.

    1. Re:How are you making your course corrections? by djcinsb · · Score: 2, Informative

      On a "good" sail the surface is very reflective. The force that propels the spacecraft is the sum of two vectors; one pointing from the sun to the spacecraft, and a second for the reflected radiation leaving the sail. So you can steer the spacecraft by shortening one side and lengthening the other side of the says attaching the sail to the spacecraft, redirecting the outgoing vector. Or do something similar (e.g. reorient segments rather than the whole sail).

      --
      A signature always reveals a man's character - and sometimes even his name. -- Evan Esar
  13. one more stat by ILuvRamen · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The probability of it getting all the way there without one single part of the 1 KM sail getting hit by any single piece of space rock or other debris: 0%
    Dream on, space sailors. It's an idiotic idea and always will be.

    --
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    1. Re:one more stat by jeffb+(2.718) · · Score: 2, Informative

      <deep sigh/>

      What happens if you shoot a bullet at a sailboat's sail? You get a tiny hole in the sail. Now imagine the bullet is a million times less massive, and traveling a thousand times as fast. Same kinetic energy, but it's going to punch a much smaller and neater hole.

      Any space debris at the relative velocity of a solar sail will punch right through any imaginable sail material, vaporizing the tiny bit that it contacts. The surrounding material won't even feel a tug.

  14. Re:Solar at that distance? by John_Booty · · Score: 3, Informative

    Right. There's (almost) no friction in space, so your craft isn't going to slow down just because it's no longer receiving enough power from the sun to accelerate. But after a certain point it won't receive enough solar power to power onboard navigation and communications systems. Those would likely be powered by a wee bit o' radioactive power like today's deep space probes.

    --

    OtakuBooty.com: Smart, funny, sexy nerds.
  15. Re:Wont the accleration decrease with distance by jeffb+(2.718) · · Score: 2, Informative
  16. Need to think relatively by Lev13than · · Score: 5, Funny

    Course correcting a small ship is easy - I'm more worried about everything else. In a relativistic navigation model, the ship is going to be in exactly the right place. However, the energy required to course correct the entire universe by one million km will be prohibitive.

    --
    When you have nothing left to burn you must set yourself on fire
  17. Move along. Nothing to see here. by mbone · · Score: 3, Informative

    The JPL ODP (Orbit Determination Program) has incorporated relativity since the 1960's and uses the proper Einstein Infeld Hoffmann (EIH) equations of motion for the harmonic gauge.

     

  18. 0.1 AU? by TheSHAD0W · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I can understand why it would be nice to start off a solar-sail-based craft at one-tenth AU from the Sun; more light pressure = more acceleration. Thing is, it will almost certainly be starting out from Earth. You'd need to accelerate it just to drop it down to 0.1 AU. Wouldn't it be more efficient to use that acceleration to throw it outward instead of inward? Anyone care to calculate this?

  19. GPS must correct for special & general realtiv by peter303 · · Score: 2, Informative

    There is slowing of the clock onboard GPS satellites both due to the orbital speed (special relativity) and lower gravity (general relativity). This paper says special relativity errors accumlate about 7 microseconds a day and general relativity 46 microseconds. Radio signals move a thousand feet per microsecond, so the effect significant.

  20. I already use relativistic navigation by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 2, Funny

    I don't know what the big fuss is about relativistic navigation. Almost every day my close relative sits on the passenger seat tells me where to go. Some times my other close relative sits in the back seat and tells me where to go. Being used to that kind of relativistic navigation, I wonder why NASA is so puzzled.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  21. I'm Confused by Kozar_The_Malignant · · Score: 2, Insightful

    > it could travel 2500AU, far enough to explore the Oort Cloud... sending the sail roughly 1 million kilometers off course by the time it reaches the Oort Cloud

    How could you possibly miss the Oort Cloud, a spherical region, when you start inside it. Considering that we don't know jack, or even 10% of jack, about the Oort Cloud, what the hell are we aiming at? Fling the sucker out there at random and see what we find. The unaimed arrow never misses.

    --
    Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
  22. Maths required for space navigation? by Crookdotter · · Score: 3, Informative

    Why is this a suprise at all? GPS satellites have to include relativistic calculations. This isn't difficult for anyone involved. It's hardly rocket science.....