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Musician Lobby Terms Balanced Copyright "Disgusting"

An anonymous reader writes "While most of the attention at Thursday's Canadian copyright town hall was on the recording industry's strategy to pack the room and exclude alternate voices, the most controversial activity took place outside the hall. It has now been revealed that security guards threatened students and a Member of Parliament for distributing leaflets, and the American Federation of Musicians termed the MP's leaflet, which called for balanced copyright, 'disgusting' and demanded a retraction and apology. At this point, such an admission seems unlikely."

44 of 319 comments (clear)

  1. haha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    By describing "balanced copyright" as "disgusting, the musician's lobby has admitted publicly that current copyright law is unbalanced in their favor.

    1. Re:haha by unlametheweak · · Score: 5, Insightful

      By describing "balanced copyright" as "disgusting, the musician's lobby has admitted publicly that current copyright law is unbalanced in their favor.

      It just means that they shouldn't be taken seriously. Nothing they say is meaningful, helpful or relevant to anything but their own copyright fetish.

    2. Re:haha by Rallion · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Balanced" does not mean "fair" or "right".

      For example, one might term a new tax structure in which the government takes half of your income "balanced".

    3. Re:haha by parodyca · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Oh well, if we are playing the stats game. Here are a few more stats for you

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate
      Infant mortality (per 100000)
                Canada 4.8 5.9
                United States 6.3 7.8

      Life expectancy
        Canada 81.23
        United States 78.11

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems
      over all cancer mortality rate
      Canada 148.2
      US 160.5

      And you can talk waiting lists as long as you want. Canada, the U.K. and many European countries may have waiting lists that force those with money to wait a bit longer, but they also ensure that those without get the same respect. In the US those without the means don't even get on the waiting list.

    4. Re:haha by dryeo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Another difference between Canada and the States is the deficit. What would the Americans taxes be like if they had not been running a deficit for the last decade or so?

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    5. Re:haha by darien · · Score: 3, Informative

      Psst... cost of a private cervical smear test in the UK: £140 (about US$ 230).

    6. Re:haha by cyber-vandal · · Score: 4, Informative

      Speaking as someone who actually uses the NHS, unlike you and Daniel Hannan, I'm really happy with my evil socialised healthcare and am a much healthier person thanks to it.

    7. Re:haha by 10Ghz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      MEP Daniel Hannan said in early August, "The worst thing to be is elderly under the UK Health System..... you will be denied care and left starving in wards."

      For some reason I'm reminded by the American Republican (or something) who railed against the Obama plan in a newspaper-article by saying "If Stephen Hawking had to rely on UK healthcare, he would be long dead by now!". The retard didn't realize that Hawking has been relying on UK healthcare for all his life....

      It seems to me that the whole healthcare-discussion in USA is plagued by buzzwords and stupidity. Some people oppose it because it "socialism" and everything that is related to socialism is automatically bad. They never stop and think about the issue, they just see the S-word being thrown around and automatically oppose it with zero critical thinking.

      --
      Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
    8. Re:haha by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 4, Informative

      "Balanced" does not mean "fair" or "right".

      Here is the PDF of the leaflet in question. Judge for yourself.

      I'm pro-copyright (though in favor of reducing copyright term length), and I find it perfectly reasonable.

    9. Re:haha by hedwards · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That conclusion doesn't follow from your premise. The ability of a person to falsely label something as balanced is not the same thing as the thing being balanced. Furthermore, the government taking half of your income might actually be a very good deal if you're getting more of the services you need than you were previously getting.

      In this case it's pretty clear that they're talking about balancing the needs of the owners of copyrights, with the needs of those that use it and society in general.

    10. Re:haha by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To put it briefly - most people who believe they are "uninsured" are actually eligible for government programs like Medicare, COBRA, and SCHIP.

      LMAO. There's a difference between being technically eligible, and being realistically able. When I changed my last job, I was told about COBRA coverage - not that I needed it but nonetheless. I was told that if my wife and I elected to use COBRA, our monthly insurance payment would be $1190.

      I'm sure I'm not alone in pondering where someone laid off from their job is going to come up with $1190 a month for health insurance alone, but maybe you could enlighten me.

      MEP Daniel Hannan said in early August, "The worst thing to be is elderly under the UK Health System..... you will be denied care and left starving in wards."

      You mean the conservative politician who is so conservative that even his own party leader immediately tried to distance the party from him, saying that Hannan "has some rather eccentric points of view"?

      Anecdotally, my grandmother in Scotland would disagree with him. She was transported by ambulance to hospital recently, and stayed 14 days, with a case of bronchitis / pneumonia. Whilst there they not only treated her for that, but said that since she was already in the facility, they would get her help to quit smoking, and also arranged a physical therapist to spend considerable time with her in regards to an ailing hip, and took diagnostic imagery 'in case in the future they might need to look at it in more detail'.

    11. Re:haha by parodyca · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You speak with sarcasm, but you are absolutely correct.

      Society does have a need for music, and for more music (and other works to be produced) society NEEDs that music to enter the public domain at some point. The same holds true for pharmaceutical drugs as well. That is why copyright and patent protection are for limited times.

      You make the common mistake of confusing real property rights with monopoly rights granted through copyright and patents. and the point you are trying to make illustrates where this analogy breaks down. I wish we user the term Intellectual Monopoly instead of property. It is more accurate and less likely to lead people to making these poor analogies.

  2. Frankly by zoomshorts · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The artists, the songwriters need to be the ONLY people represented there.
    They are, after all, the people who create the music. RIAA and their ilk
    need not be present at all. They are merely thugs who take the lion's share
    of the money that should go to the artists directly.

    1. Re:Frankly by Dunbal · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The other night I was a witness to flagrant copyright infringement. Nay, I even supported it.

      I was at a small restaurant, and there was this guy strumming an electric guitar, playing all these "Golden Oldies" (I am 40+) from the 60's to the 80's. The guy was a terrible singer, but he could play the guitar reasonably well. My girlfriend and I started singing along (we are pretty damned good singers) to some of the classics (like Beatles songs we knew) - it was that kind of relaxed tiny restaurant. We got applause.

      We ended up having a great time. I tipped the guy the equivalent of about $20.

      However according to RIAA world view, this person should probably be in jail for not only singing songs that weren't "his" but actually trying to earn a living from it. And I should be in jail for supporting his illegal activities and singing along. In fact, this probably constituted a "public performance". You know, the world according to the RIAA would kind of suck.

      Name me ONE FUCKING ARTIST who started out with 100% original music. Everyone plays the songs they like, or the songs they heard, while they're learning to play. EVERYONE. Without explicit written permission from the copyright holder. The RIAA hypocrites represent the worst in human greed and, to quote Pink Floyd: "And if I had my own way, I'd have all of you SHOT!".

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    2. Re:Frankly by RIAA+Associate · · Score: 5, Funny

      Hello Sir,

      Would you please be so kind to supply us with the address of the quoted establishment, as well as any detail you can remember about that particular performer? We ostensibly thank you for your help and to show it we decided to make you an exclusive offer: seeing as you seem to enjoy Pink Floyd, we will send you the limited edition box set "Oh, By the Way" entirely for free. Just send us your name and address and we will dispatch it as soon as possible.

      Thank you very much for you collaboration, once more.

      Kind Regards,
      RIAA Associate representative

    3. Re:Frankly by lavacano201014 · · Score: 4, Funny

      to quote Pink Floyd: "And if I had my own way, I'd have all of you SHOT!".

      There's some copyright infringement right there.

      --
      A wise man once said, "Where is my other quotation mark?
    4. Re:Frankly by seizurebattlerobot · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Nope. There's a famous historical anecdote about this very issue.

      Twice a year a celebrated Misereri by Allegri, an early seventeenth-century composer, was performed by the choir, but the work, which existed only in MS., was so highly esteemed that to copy it was a crime visited with excommunication. Young Mozart nevertheless determined that he would secure a copy, and after two hearings he had the whole thing so perfectly on paper that next year Dr. Burney, the musical historian, was able to publish it in London.

      Mozart had to worry about excommunication as punishment for his piracy at the time. If the RIAA were functioning in Mozart's time as it is today (100+ year copyrights), he would have been prosecuted.

      Source: http://www.music-with-ease.com/mozart.html

    5. Re:Frankly by canadian_right · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Sorry no. While he did start writing his own music at a very early age, he did indeed get his first music lesson playing others music. And Mozart lived before all copyright laws so he often found that after one of his new pieces was played in concert, the town down the road was performing his music the next week and he didn't see a cent.

      A want copyright laws that allow artists to earn a fair living. I want fair use spelled out. I want a limited copyright term, say 20 years. I want NO DMR.

      --
      Anarchists never rule
    6. Re:Frankly by canadian_right · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It might be fair use, but as fair use is not clearly codified we don't really know.

      --
      Anarchists never rule
    7. Re:Frankly by Marsell · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That was Beethoven, and for only part of his life.

      Could you at least check facts you're not sure of?

    8. Re:Frankly by masterzora · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And what is the problem with ending sentences with prepositions? It is perfectly valid, grammatically speaking, and, while it is true that it sometimes makes for more awkward sentences, it also avoids awkward sentences sometimes, such as with the GP.

      --
      Remember, open source is free as in speech, not free as in bear.
  3. it doesn't matter what they think by circletimessquare · · Score: 5, Insightful

    it doesn't matter what laws they pay to get passed

    copyright has been treated as damage to the network and has been appropriately routed around

    thousands of

    industry lawyer goons

    versus

    millions of

    1. technically superior,
    2. media hungry and
    3. POOR teenagers

    the game is already over

    it doesn't matter in the least what the law says, in any country

    copyright has been rendered functionally defunct and unenforceable

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  4. "Shamelessly buy votes?" by DingerX · · Score: 5, Insightful
    From the "apology-demanding" letter by "Alan Willaert, the Canadian representative of the American Federation of Musicians":

    I am shocked that both Chow and Charlie Angus are allowed to openly depart from party policy and directive, obviously just to shamelessly buy votes among young people and academics.

    So if you support a policy in line with a large segment of the people you represent, that's "shamelessly buy"ing votes?

    Well, if so, than I wholeheartedly condemn the American Federation of Musician's shameless perversion of Democracy.

    1. Re:"Shamelessly buy votes?" by shma · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In their world, politicians acting on voters wishes is 'buying votes', while lobbyists using the promise of campaign contributions to get favourable legislation passed is 'Democracy in Action'.

      It's the same kind of logic that makes 30 copies of crappy pop songs worth over a million dollars.

      --
      I came here for a good argument
    2. Re:"Shamelessly buy votes?" by catman · · Score: 4, Informative
      A commenter on Boing Boing notes:
      Just thought it was worth pointing out for the non Canadians here that Olivia Chow is married to Jack Layton, the leader of the federal NDP. The MP Mr. Willaert claims is openly departing from party policy is, in fact, married to the party's leader.

      In the spirit of disclosure, I am a member of the Ontario NDP.

    3. Re:"Shamelessly buy votes?" by Sique · · Score: 4, Funny

      So you think this might backfire? ;)

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    4. Re:"Shamelessly buy votes?" by radtea · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In their world, politicians acting on voters wishes is 'buying votes', while lobbyists using the promise of campaign contributions to get favourable legislation passed is 'Democracy in Action'.

      War is peace.
      Freedom is slavery.
      Ignorance is strength.

      The time has come to eschew abstractions in debate to the greatest extent possible, because they have been taken over by the liars and lobbyists.

      Using concrete terms is more wordy, but much harder to distort.

      Don't talk about "copyright" or "pirating", talk about "laws against making copies of songs or movies". It works in part because people think that "copyright|" means exactly one thing, and they know what that thing is. When you use more concrete language you actually INCREASE certain types of necessary ambiguity, and raise questions in people's heads like, "WHICH laws against making WHAT KIND of copies of songs or movies FOR WHAT PURPOSE?" To have an intelligent opinion on these matters you need to know the answers to those questions, and many people do not, but think they do because the comfortable abstraction "copyright" makes them feel they have a handle on the issue.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
  5. Actually by zoomshorts · · Score: 3, Insightful

    When I was learning to play the saxophone and later , guitar,
    I would purchase sheet music for the songs I wanted to learn.

    I assumed that my purchase of the music, essentially allowed
    me to play that music. Not for profit, but to learn.

    School bands, the orchestral and marching bands, all did the
    same thing until Xerography became commonplace. Now I suspect
    they buy ONE copy and burn as many copies as they need.

    That would be a copyright violation, easily.

    1. Re:Actually by wstrucke · · Score: 5, Informative

      School bands, the orchestral and marching bands, all did the same thing until Xerography became commonplace. Now I suspect they buy ONE copy and burn as many copies as they need.

      That would be a copyright violation, easily.

      Some do that. Most of them actually purchase the music because the RIAA and similar groups have enormous fines for not having the originals. There are 800 numbers you can call to report suspected piracy and they will come out unannounced and search the school's music library to make sure they have purchased originals for all of their music.

      Since kids tend to damage or lose the originals many directors keep them in their library and only hand out the photocopies -- which is entirely legal.

      A side effect of this is why school music programs are always broke. They have to spend a lot of money on the music alone, and whatever is left over goes to instruments, uniforms, and eventually the students. IMO this is good example of everything that is wrong with the industry. Schools should get this stuff for free so they can spend the money on education and not have to worry about copyright.

    2. Re:Actually by LinkX39 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I agree whole-heartedly. I was in band from the 4th grade all the way through til high school graduation and I saw what copyright "protection" did to our music program. I remember having to share one sheet of music for 4 people because our director didn't want to take a chance at violating copyright by making an extra copy or two; whether a violation would have occurred or not didn't matter (and I'm not sure it would have), the fear of it happening was enough. Except in areas where the band actually makes a profit (all of our concerts were free at the time and open to the public, no profit was made except during marching band season) how is this not all covered under fair use? It's ridiculous. The only reason we didn't have financial problems was because we had such a good group of lobbying parents in the past that pushed the district for money, allowing us to build a substantial back catalog of music we could play from. I can see why smaller schools don't even start up band/orchestra programs though, it's too damn expensive. IMO, the RIAA will be a major culprit in the death of music education in America.

    3. Re:Actually by ae1294 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I thought "educational use" was allowed as fair use?

      Fair Use has been dead for awhile now...

    4. Re:Actually by gnud · · Score: 4, Informative

      Someone should point these schools to sites like mutopia, imslp, and for choirs, the choir public domain library.

    5. Re:Actually by jesset77 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Because your music director chose to perform works first published on or after January 1, 1923 (in the United States), or works whose author was still alive or had died less than 70 years ago (in most other countries).

      Nice try tepples, but you are confusing fair use with public domain.

      --
      People willing to trade their freedom of expression for temporary entertainment deserve neither and will lose both.
  6. I'll tell you what's disgusting by Dachannien · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What's really disgusting is that the RIAA/CRIA, in this case through their lapdogs in the AFM, are still firmly convinced that they speak for all musicians everywhere.

    It ain't true. Really.

  7. Re:What was in the Leaflet? by parodyca · · Score: 5, Informative
  8. Pirate Party by Nuitari+The+Wiz · · Score: 5, Informative

    http://www.pirateparty.ca/ , and we now have a new website

  9. How can the orginal article be slashdotted? by west · · Score: 3, Funny

    The article's about *Canada*. Who the heck is reading it?

  10. And they wonder why we have no respect for them... by Derekloffin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I mean seriously, when you pull stunts like this, barring even the other view from being fielded, how in the hell do you expect us to take you seriously? This kind of thing disgusts me. I'm actually for copyright and protections and the like, but every time they do this kind of thing I lose that much more of my support for their position as they are obviously not even trying to be reasonable.

    As to the MP and students distributing the flier, good job. The other side has to be heard. Don't let these guys get away with this BS. And don't even think about apologizing. They are the ones that should be apologizing to you. They obviously aren't interested in real discussion.

  11. Forces of Reality by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 5, Insightful

    1. technically superior,
    2. media hungry and
    3. POOR teenagers

    It's not the wants and needs of teenagers that is bringing the end of copyright. It's the simple forces of reality.

    You know the song "Happy Birthday". It's copyrighted. The song itself is a mere 95 bytes in size. The data overheads involved in transmitting the file probably outweigh the file itself. Yet copyright law essentially tells us that Time Warner "owns" this song. That the act of copying it is a sacred right, reserved only for those whom the privilage is conferred upon by the rightful owner. The rightful owner of 95 bytes of data. An amount so small that no currency exists that can measure its worth.

    But Happy Birthday represents only the purest and most absurd form of copyrighted work. As Moore's law has progressed, and continues progressing, and as our networks get faster and faster and disc space cheaper and cheaper, even music files 5MB in size have become trivial amounts of data. Soon even 50GB Blu Ray movies will be considered too paltry to be worth protecting. For some, they already are. This isn't a simply a consequence of people being too cheap. It's a consequence of the data being too cheap to buy.

    People realise this. They're not stupid. They see how easy, accessible and trivial data is in our digital age. The internet is a deluge and trying to tell them that certain datas cannot be copied because they are under some sacred divination is like telling people in a thunderstorm that they cannot collect rain water(This is in fact done in certain places). You can pass such laws, but ultimately resonable people will not obey them. They will not obey the law, not because it is unjust, but because it is entirely irrational. In ten years time, claiming the latest 5MB pop song should be protected will be as ludicrous as claiming the same for "Happy Birthday".

    As the realities of the digital of make the concept of copyright more and more irrational, I find it increasingly difficult to even find arguments justifying its continued existence. With the de facto perpetual copyright that has evolved, its irrational claims and the draconian measures used to enforce it, more and more I find myself viewing copyright as a system that will be inherently gamed by its proponents and which will, inevitably evolved to the absurd position we now find ourselves in. Frankly, I think copyright is akin to the system of direct democracy and propositions run in California. A noble goal, and even a worthwhile one in the beginning, but which in the end became a destructive farce and totally unworkable.

    I'd like to hear some justifications for copyright that aren't 300 years old. While I see some benefit to the system, ultimately, I am like someone seeing the benefits of Prohibition while also seeing the great harm it has done to society, politics and the legal system. My current position is that copyright needs drastic reform and moreover, if that reform is impossible or unworkable then we need to scrap the system entirely.

    --
    May the Maths Be with you!
    1. Re:Forces of Reality by Svartalf · · Score: 5, Informative

      It remains to be seen. One professor seems to think that the chain of proof that the Copyright was properly registered, etc. for Happy Birthday- and has a lot of proof to back up his claims. However, unless you press for disproving the claims, you'll have to accept that the Copyright Office DOES hold that Time Warner does, in fact, own the rights to that song until 2030 unless there's changes in the Copyright laws subsequent to this time. They got the rights through a complex series of transactions.

      Saying that they don't own it doesn't get you off the hook. You'll need to go through over 200 documents worth of research, pay lawyers thousands of dollars, and prove to a Court that this is the case if you're guilty of performing it commercially and get caught at doing it.

      That's the reality and absurdity of the current situation with that song and of Copyright in general. I agree we need Copyright. What I don't agree with is the current incarnation thereof.

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
  12. Five people by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 3, Informative

    It's certainly not illegal to buy sheet music of one's favorite rock artists, and sing and practice said music in the privacy of one's home

    Only if your group or family has less than 6 (or $LOCAL_LEGAL_MAX) people in it. Most countries have a legal limit for audience size above which the performance is defined as public. This limit is usually below the size of an above average family. While I'm not sure that a jury would find you guilty of a public performance and even the recording industry would not likely press charges due to public backlash technically you are breaking the letter of the law.

  13. Re:Learning from the folks down south by radtea · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Next they'll have talking heads on sympathetic cable news networks suggesting that Canada is being taken over by Socialists and "real patriots" should start showing up at meetings with guns

    This is where the strategy breaks down, as we've had numerous socialist governments at the provincial level that have been variously disastrous (Ontario), middling-competent (BC) and really quite good (Manitoba.)

    So "socialist" ain't the scare-word up here it is in the USA, although that's helped by Canadians being generally braver and more tolerant of diversity than Americans (see our gay marriage laws, for example.)

    The difference is due to two things, I think: we have a long history of robust alternative political experimentation, so we tend to go, "Ok, another bunch of wingnuts... let's see what they have to bring to the table..." because we have lots of examples, particularly at the provincial level, of wingnuts not turning out to be any more dangerous/stupid/insane than the mainstream parties.

    On the other hand, we have no imperial ambitions, and that means we aren't afraid to be seen to try and fail. This makes us more successful, in the long run, because it gives our political and economic system more freedom to experiment. Whereas the Americans know they'll be mocked around the world if they try anything and fail, which often leads them to simply not try, except in the area of military adventurism where even failure is so terrible and terrifying that there isn't a lot of mocking going on.

    In any case, attempts by Americans to influence Canadian policy have not been notably successful even with our most neo-conservative Federal government ever, and antics like these at the town hall meeting are only going to result in conditions that make it politically impossible for the Conservatives to table legislation that is seen to kowtow to American corporate interests.

    Americans typically see Canadians as stoic and think we're passive. You see we're self-deprecating and think we lack confidence. You see we're polite and think we're weak. Then you come up against our hard limits and wonder what you were thinking.

    --
    Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
  14. The destruction of copyright by mbone · · Score: 3, Interesting

    About 8 years ago, I warned industry types that the end result of their activities would be the destruction of copyright - not because I wanted it destroyed, but because the more hysterical and unbalanced their attempts to protect their legacy business models become, the stronger the inevitable reaction would become.

    I was roundly jumped on for that opinion, but I have seen nothing the period since to make me change it. In fact, I think it's now like Communism during the 20 years after the suppression of the Prague Spring - it's already too late to reform it, and the only real question is how the end will come.

  15. We need more reasonable copyright laws by symbolset · · Score: 5, Funny

    I'm thinking, 10-20yrs of incarceration for flagrant violations for ripping a digital copy of a CD or DVD for personal use, 25-40 for sharing it, and financial damages in the millions of dollars per shared song or book. That should adequately provide a disincentive for the casual intellectual property thief. Obviously forfeiture of your entire estate and a lifetime of collections to prevent future economic misdeeds is the only adequate preventive measure.

    For thieves of software and commercial theft, adding chemical castration should nip the problem in the bud.

    And of course to claw back the rampant theft of content the content cooperatives like BSA, RIAA and MPAA should get a surcharge of 50% on all R/W media including hard drives - 75% for SD media that's more frequently infringing, and on all streaming communications like Internet, Cable TV, cellular phones and POTS. Clearly the passing of digital or analog data across international borders is likewise a circumvention of just management of artist's rights - a "jurisdiction hole" and must be prevented totally. An overriding "Supercopyright Body" should be instituted consisting of all of these constituencies.

    To ensure fair distribution of content licensing all equipment that contains an amplifier, recorder or speaker should enjoy the surcharge as well. After all if you play music in your car with the windows down that's a public performance. Naturally for all of this equipment adequate licensing protective measures of DRM should be mandatory as well.

    I'm sure we can count on the righteous defenders of artists' rights to distribute the take equitably after accounting overhead and costs.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.