Slashdot Mirror
Alan Turing Apology Campaign Grows
chrb writes "Several British news sources have recently reported on the growing campaign that calls for an apology to Alan Turing for his persecution by the British government. The petition to the Prime Minister was started by John Graham-Cumming, who has also written to the Queen requesting a Knighthood for Turing, but admits that a pardon is 'unlikely,' saying, 'The most important thing to me is that people hear about Alan Turing and realize his incredible impact on the modern world, and how terrible the impact of prejudice was on him.'"
How about having the British apologize to everyone who was wronged by their hateful policies in the past?
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
Ignorance knows no bounds of age. I'd heard of Turing before I was 10 years old, and I'm now the ripe old age of 26. Yet I know someone in his early forties who thought I was talking about "some bloke down the kebab shop"....
The truth shall always be free: Boris Floricic is Tron.
You don't have to be young. I know plenty of people, aged nine to ninety-nine, who have no idea who he was. This is unfortunate, given the sheer magnitude of the man's contributions to the society we now enjoy.
512 MB RAM, 20 GB disk, 200 GB transfer, five datacenters. $19.95/month.
Bluntly? Screw it.
Screw an apology and a pardon, screw knighthood and whatnot. That man had no small impact on the outcome of the breaking of German codes and thus the outcome of the war. And the thanks was to prosecute him 'cause he was gay.
If that happened to me, I'd have wanted to kill myself for helping those hypocrites. Well, maybe he did. I couldn't care less about a half-assed apology half a century after driving him to suicide (or killing him altogether, depending on your point of view).
It's a bit like the history of Joan of Arc. Very popular and welcome in times of dire straits but quickly dumped once no longer useful and deemed a "security risk".
No thanks. I know what Turing did. For himself, for science, for "us" geeks. Whether you care about him, whether you apologize, frankly, it doesn't matter.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Excuse me, but WHY would his pardon be unlikely? He was convicted of something that is totally legal today! Shouldn't they be pardoning EVERYONE convicted under these acts? He was convicted for having sex with a man in the privacy of his own home! These idiots shunned one of the most brilliant members of their society because of who he wanted to have sex with! If there are any conservative Christians out there who need an example of why their gay-bashing is idiotic and obscenely counter-productive, look no further than the case of Alan Turing.
To the haters: You can't win. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
Why not a general to all people who have been victims of unfair discrimination?
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
It's not age. Turing is fairly obscure outside of computer science. Everyone on Slashdot has heard of him, of course, but has your barber? Butcher? Regardless of their age.
He contributed a lot to computer science, but scientists don't usually get much press. He was also a war hero, and those DO sometimes get fame, but most of what he did was secret until long after the war.
Ok this opinion might be unpopular here, but the British Government has nothing to apologize about when talking of persecution of Alan Turing. The fact is: Alan Turing broke the law that was on the books at that time. The people knew of Turing's sexual orientation, but he did not have to act on it, if that was against the law. The British government could have put him in jail, instead they mandated that he takes hormones (which, of course have caused him to grow breasts...and lead to his depression)
NOW: What British government should apologize for, is persecution of all gays in the UK and the rest of the (now) commonwealth, which includes Alan Turing. The persecution in itself was wrong, not a treatment of the particular individual.
Just... Wow. I'd heard of Turing's contribution to computer science of course but the notion of a state that will castrate you for being Homosexual is nightmarish... and 1952 isn't all that long ago. I suppose it's a good thing that such an act can be considered so outlandish and horrific today.
Be lenient. He might on the other hand know Beckham's first name (frankly, I don't). Every group of people has their heroes...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
If there are any conservative Christians out there who need an example of why their gay-bashing is idiotic and obscenely counter-productive, look no further than the case of Alan Turing.
Right. Because it's only conservative Christians who "gay bash." Islamic fundamentalists, for whom gay bashing laws are still on the theocratic books, get a pass in the public consciousness, as usual..
Lookit, the Americans and Western Europeans did some bad things, and then we got over it! We moved on! We entered the 21st Century!! You want to get angry, you want to get fired up, you want to actually do some good and maybe save some lives, go after Sharia, today, not Britain 50-60 years ago.
There is no reason why the current UK govt. wouldn't do this - after all, it's apologizing for something that a completely different set of leaders is guilty of. They will do it for no other reason but because it makes sheer political sense. No, not because it's the right thing to do.
Likewise, the Lockerbie bomber wasn't released because it's the right thing to do, but because Gaddafi all but publicly promised natural gas and oil at favourable prices, in return.
In other words: fuck it all.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
... I want big $$$ compensation for what the Tories did to my Colonial ancestors! Cold hard cash in 100 Euro bills would be nice, but I'll settle for Paypal and lose that 2.9 percent if that's how it has to happen.
Look, Turing's been dead for 50 years. The politicians that made the laws he was convicted under are all dead. The judge who sentenced him is dead. The police and the lawyers and everyone else involved are most likely dead.
A corporate body cannot take responsibility, only an individual can, and our major moral problem is that we keep deluding ourselves into thinking that "corporate morals" means something. It doesn't. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT YOU DO, and "just taking orders" is never an excuse. Just as a bureaucracy cannot take the fault for a heinous act, it can no more offer real contrition, nor can it offer a real apology.
(Which is, incidentally, one of the major reasons our society is so screwed up. To paraphrase C.S. Lewis from an intro to one or the other edition of Screwtape Letters, the great evil done today is not done by thieves and criminals in the dens of crime Dickens loved to paint, but by well-dressed men in offices, acting behind the shield of a bureaucracy.)
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
What about Oscar Wilde, then?
Doh.
48, I guess, because I didn't know about his personal life at all. While many may be well acquainted with Turing's professional life they may not know of his personal life. Please don't make blanket assumptions that someone is aware of all aspects of any subject here; that in fact is why I subscribe to Slashdot in the first place...to find out what I *DON'T* know.
Have every government apologize for all cases of discrimination, murder, destruction, theft, pollution, pillage and enslavement that they have done in the past, and have them pledge to not do so in the future.
But that would be utopian, when the fact of the matter is that the electorate of all western nations in some form or degree wants the above. (Yes, that most likely includes you, the reader, as well.)
Yeah, Alan Turing was really important to computer science. And he suffered because of a law that we currently find injust. But what's the point of this posthumous apology? The guy is dead. He's not going to feel any better if someone says they're sorry.
Is the point to get his name out there? To increase his fame? To get him the recognition he deserves? Why? Yeah, he's a big deal to computer scientists... But the world doesn't revolve around us. Why is it so necessary for the world to recognize his contribution specifically?
Is the point to make the British government apologize for treating people badly in the past? Again - why? They don't do that anymore, do they? Homosexuality isn't currently on the books as a crime, is it? Isn't that enough then? And if it isn't, where do you stop apologizing? Are you going to ask for a formal apology to every single person who was convicted of a crime that we now disagree with?
The past is the past. Bad things happened, innocent people suffered, but it is over now. Time to move on.
I'm not suggesting that we sweep all this nastiness under the rug, hide it, or forget about it... By all means, let's learn from our mistakes... But apologizing to dead people just doesn't get you very far.
"Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
the apology is for us. if you have a conscience, you feel bad about something done wrong, and you try to make amends for it. it doesn't matter if you are the perp, or some other guy is, or its something wrong that happened 1000 years ago
its a simple, healthy, normal, human instinct
why the retarded antagonism to a simple human impulse?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
hold your bladder until we change the law, or its your fault your pants get wet
sound absurd? that's what you are saying
"The people knew of Turing's sexual orientation, but he did not have to act on it, if that was against the law."
acting on your sexual orientation is not only your essential human right, it is IMPOSSIBLE not to act on it
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
The problem with this attitude is that we don't acknowledge that something was done wrong. Sometimes an apology is all that is needed to mend ties to some wronged group, and then healing can begin. The Mongols and the roman empire are poor examples. No one has memory of the emotional impact of the Mongols and the Roman empire. But there is still plenty of emotions over the european impact over Africa, the middle east, and southeast asia. Hell, a lot of what's going on in those areas, mostly bad things, are a direct result of the actions that were taken by those imperial powers. And yet most governments go along like "Oh really we did something wrong? Well that wasn't my fault that was someone else. I'd never do that to you." Oh really, then why don't you just apologize and get on with life? What, no apology? Gee, I guess you don't think it was wrong huh?
I like the idea that someone else posted that apologies should be given to the entire community, and not just to Alan Turing. Alan in this case is a good poster child.
Western Countries still have plenty of people with lots of illogical hatred. I think that if Britain were to do this it would go a long way to further showing how backward the US is in it's own hatreds. If you tried this in the US there would actually be a huge political backlash. And an apology doesn't have to mean you are weak, an apology just has to mean you were too cruel in the past, and that the government by the people and for the people will try to do better to preserve your basic human rights.
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Cuz I have yet to hear of one ever working in the US...
Down with the career politician! SUPPORT TERM LIMITS
When Jay Leno shoves a microphone in your face, you know that the only way you're going to get on the air with an outrageous answer. Is it an wonder there are so many outrageous answers?
Has Jay ever shown a segment where everyone shown got the right answer?
All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
I bet not one person that I work with has even heard of Alan Turing or the ENIGMA machine.
Ah, you mean the machine that Matthew McConaughey and some brave American servicemen (TM) rescued from U571.. Yes, Alan Turing must have been an American like Stephen Hawking, and that crew of brave American servicemen (TM)...
So what if he does know Beckham's first name? Athletic achievement is the lowest common denominator in human achievement and serves to inspire the weak-minded. Need proof? Name me one famous sports figure from the time of Aristotle. Ok, I'll be more generous -- let's go with Galileo. Still nothing? How about Mozart -- that was only a couple hundred years ago! My point is, sports are utterly meaningless and this Beckham character, beloved as he is now, will be utterly forgotten in the next century, where great minds such as Turing will continue to inspire the world as long as there are humans to speak of them.
To the haters: You can't win. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
Not that I'm a big sports fan, but plenty of people remember sports figures from the last century. Audio and video recording has much to do with that. Mozart, Galileo and Aristotle had the means to record their accomplishments, the athletes of their time did not.
I've heard of Turing, but did not know about his "persecution" by his own government. These types of things often don't make it into the textbooks, just like over in Europe you probably never heard of the U.S. government's nuclear experiments on non-whites (second-class citizens in the 1950s).
Democracies often kill their best and brightest, simply because they are "odd". The most famous example is Socrates who had committed no crime, but was killed with a simple majority vote by his Athenian neighbors. That's why most modern liberal societies are Not democracies (rule of 51%) but instead Republics (rule of law), in order to protect basic individual rights.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
I agree that apologizing for something that you didn't to to people who are no longer alive doesn't make much sense. I think that John's first suggestion of knighting him is a great idea. It's not an apology; it is honoring him for his tremendous contributions to the country, in spite of the horrible way he was treated.
It has much of the same social benefit that apologizing to him would. He should have been knighted while he was alive, and the only reason he wasn't was because he was gay. Choosing to do so now recognizes this fact and states that we will no longer overlook someone because of their sexuality.
If you want to apologize, apologize to the people who are still living that were put though this garbage. For Turing in particular the important thing is to remember what he accomplished and what he was put through, and officially honoring him is an excellent way to do this.
Your views might not align with that of others. That does not mean that we should consider with different views to us as weak-minded.
I consider athletic achievement on par with intellectual achievements, along with military, monetary and political achievements. Why? Because they are all attained by people who dedicates their life to a single goal. In my view, that is the most important thing.
Now, coming to your view, you have considered only scientists and artists. The point, I guess, being that the world is the way it is now only due to scientific achievements. I disagree on that. Politics and military has played a far far bigger role in shaping the world as we see it now. Again, much of athletic achievements and military achievements go hand in hand. Also, when survival was at stake - which was the case for majority of human existence, athletic capabilities played as big a role as intellectual capabilities. Similar is the case with monetary and artistic achievements too.
I am also more inspired by intellectual achievements than others, but let us not denigrate others based solely on that. Judging others by our morals is not always correct.
rajmohan_h@yahoo.com
So the Vatican was wrong to apologize for the treatment of Galileo? I mean, Galileo was disobeying edicts of high-ranking church officials, which, in southern Italy at the time, was the law.
As others have pointed out, the Brits were happy to employ Turing, and surely must have known about his personal life. When the war was over, they threw him to the wolves. They were quite happy to ignore the anti-sodomy laws when it suited their needs. So this isn't just a matter of Turing disobeying the laws of the time, it's an issue of the British Government permitting to happen so long as Turing could help them win the war.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
How about making no apologies for the past and moving on. if you want to carry generation after generation of grudges for past wrongs move to the middle east, they've taken 8000 year old grudges to an art form.
What's done is done. You can't undo it, you can right a past wrong. It's done, it's over, he's dead. Move on and try not to make new mistakes rather then wasting time and energy trying to save face on old mistakes...
-=[ Who Is John Galt? ]=-
Anyone that doesn't know Turing's life story should definitely read:
Alan Turing: the Engima
by Andrew Hodges.
It's a great book.
Alan Turing did great, great, things for Britain and the world.
He was one of the most important figures in defining the outcome of WWII.
He was one of the few mathematicians responsible for inventing the computer, both in laying foundational theory and physically engineering them.
He published insightful papers and commentary, across a wide range of topics, that are still relevant today. For example, in my PhD thesis I am citing a paper of his that is cited in pretty much every major text in my field (evolutionary computation). The field has only really existed since the 1970s, 20 years after his death, yet Turing foresaw its potential.
I know that some people will be dissatisfied with the fact that the apology might seem empty, or it is one of a million apologies that should be made, but I think it's important to recognise what an exceptional man Turing was and just how pivotal he has been in our history. To apologise would be to recognise our gratitude for his achievements, as well as the dreadful mistakes that were made at the time.
If we don't recognise the errors we have made in the past, then I see no reason to imagine we are any different from those in power back then. I think that at least some people want to correct past mistakes.
Infamous
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Slashdot: news for Apple. Stuff that Apple.
> pardon is 'unlikely,'
Get over it, he's fucking dead, and all it costs you people is making some words happen. What's the matter, will the guilt become unbearable if you admit it? You know, we know, you know we know, and we know you know.
Either apologize, pardon, and clean the slate, or someone in the future is going to do it, as well as apologize to him, and us, because you didn't have the balls that Turing had even after you subjected him to estrogen emasculation. That's psychological AND physical torture, with the perpetrators attempting to skip with less than full accounting.
If the Crown's proud bastard son Australia can apologize to an entire race for worse http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7241965.stm you can manage this surely. Or if you've actually managed to export all your intestinal fortitude, ring up down under and see if maybe Kevin Rudd could pop up topside and do it for you.
No matter what you do it won't be enough because he saved all your asses many times over, and started a movement that makes modern life possible. So the only measure of your sincerity, humility and mettle will be your effort. Most visible in that effort will be that which you put towards minimizing your responsibility then and now.
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
When Jay Leno shoves a microphone in your face, you know that the only way you're going to get on the air with an outrageous answer. Is it an wonder there are so many outrageous answers?
Has Jay ever shown a segment where everyone shown got the right answer?
So, are you saying that instead of him interviewing people who either aren't bright or are uninformed, he's interviewing people who will lie and make up stuff in order to be seen for a few seconds on TV? Seems worse :)
Get off my launchpad!
"King of the Jews." That's not a crime.
The Jews considered it blasphemous that Jesus claimed to be both God and the Jewish Messiah. asked directly by the Sanhedrin if he was the Christ, Son of God. Jesus responded, as in Mark 14:60-62: "And Jesus said, "I am;" Blasphemy was a crime punishable by death under Jewish law. The other stuff about it being political may well be true, but it doesn't negate the fact that claiming to be Son of God was considered blasphemous and hence illegal by the authorities of the day.