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Nokia Fears Carriers May Try To Undermine N900

Posted by Soulskill on from the but-the-carriers-are-usually-so-helpful dept.

An anonymous reader writes "Nokia is worried that networks may reject selling the N900 because it won't allow them to mess with the operating system. Nokia has previously showed the N900 running a root shell and it appears to use the same interface for IM and phone functions. Meanwhile, Verizon is claiming that 'exclusivity arrangements promote competition and innovation.' Is it too late to explain to people why $99+$60/month is not better than $600+$20/month?"

40 of 307 comments (clear)

  1. Another one for Nokia by Jurily · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I know where my next phone is coming from.

    1. Re:Another one for Nokia by SerpentMage · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Even with the unlocked iPhone you have to keep relogging into the f***g device...

      Here I am in Switzerland and there are two providers: Orange, and Swisscom. Swisscom refuses to unlock the device at any cost. Orange sells you an unlocked device, but the operator very carefully said, "be careful it is not all you think it is."

      So I called Apple and asked what gives?

      Every time you switch SIM card you need to relogin into itunes to reregister your device.

      I asked, oh you mean everytime you put in a new card, once right?

      WRONG!!! No everytime you switch SIM cards you need to relogin... Otherwise the iPhone will not work.

      This is completely bogus and is why I am buying a Nokia N900 and not iPhone. In fact I have not yet bought a smartphone because each smart phone outside of the N900 seem to have one lock in or another.

      --

      "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
      "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
    2. Re:Another one for Nokia by spearway · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I have 4 sim cards in my wallet (ATT, Fido, Vodafone(AU) and SFR) and I change them whenever I need to. No reboot, No iTunes. Just switch wait a few seconds for the network discovery and off you go. It even reconfigures the phone features on the fly, letting you send MMS in Canada but not in the US.

  2. My next phone by A+beautiful+mind · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I really hope European carriers will carry the N900, because I'm planning on getting one. It looks really sweet for basic phone + capable mobile computing device with apt-get usage that I'd like to use it for.

    --
    It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
    Be yourself no matter what they say
    1. Re:My next phone by RalphSleigh · · Score: 4, Interesting

      So buy the phone and put your sim card in it.. I think what you mean is the carriers won't subsidise the phone, so you may have to cough up the full hardware price.

      --
      Come as you are, do what you must, be who you will.
    2. Re:My next phone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Only an american (no offense) can think something like that.
      In Europe carriers subscribe to a common standard for telephony that dates back to when the GSM was invented.
      There is *no* concept of "carrying" a phone in Europe, either the phone conforms to the network standard or it doesn't (and if it doesn't nobody sells it).
      *all* you need is a SIM card for the basic service, and a data plan if you want 3G stuff.
      Of course you can't do 3G if your phone does not support the frequencies and standards, but they are *standards* meaning the only limiting factor is whether your phone is built to use them.

      Welcome to a freer and more honest (though not as it could be) telecom industry.

    3. Re:My next phone by bhtooefr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But, in the US, you won't get your plan any cheaper, at least from what I've seen, by bringing your own phone.

    4. Re:My next phone by rohan972 · · Score: 3, Informative

      In Australia, what you get is to keep the plan you are on without being locked in to a contract. I have a cheap plan that isn't available anymore if you don't already have it. I easily recover the cost of paying for my own phone.

      --
      http://marriedmansexlife.com/
    5. Re:My next phone by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 3, Informative

      It happens all the time where I live. We have two major local carriers, one with CDMA service (superior call quality, fewer dropped calls) for which the phone must be designed for CDMA - there are no sim cards for these phones, the other a GSM network which uses locked down sim cards. Just plugging your sim card into a 3rd party phone will get you nowhere, it won't work without modifications from the cell company. Said company refuses to modify phones they didn't sell, so you're SOL unless you buy it from them. Same with CDMA phones, it may be technically possible to configure your 3rd party phone to run on the CDMA network, but the cell company just refuses. No sorry, we don't do that.

      AT&T is gaining presence here thanks to the iPhone, but they aren't exactly the people to go to if you don't want to be "locked in". Verizon is available - if you have a billing address in a state they sell service in, because they don't sell it here. T-Mobile is not even an option, only the military gets to use them.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    6. Re:My next phone by Kumiorava · · Score: 4, Interesting

      To be honest I think this should be main focus for FCC right now. Why they allow this oligopoly to exist? If the $20-$30/month subsidy for the phone was taken out it would be easy for customers to save money on using phones longer or getting them from second hand market. Prepaid or pay as you go plans are not currently competitive as well, the pricing is even worse than with a contract for average users. Other thing with pay as you go plans is that you are required to pay for at least 250 (or something close to that) minutes per month even if you don't use them.

      I have two two lines right now, one from AT&T where I pay close to $100/month even if I don't use it much. I have only 450 minutes with iPhone plan, some text messages and international calling plan. This plan is just about the lowest I could get for my iPhone. Second line is DNA Finland where I pay 0.66EUR/month for 0 minutes and 0 messages. If I use the line my call time and SMS that are around 7 cents per minute/message, other plans with higher number of discounted minute prices are available. Data is unlimited with 10EUR/month, but I don't use it right now so I don't have it. With DNA I can buy subsidized phone with $30/month, but I choose not to.

  3. Great pitch by Shin-LaC · · Score: 4, Insightful

    He also said the phone might not sell well because it's only the fourth iteration in their five-step plan, and people might wait for the fifth, which is going to be the real deal. Hasn't this genius heard of the Osborne effect?

    1. Re:Great pitch by Plug · · Score: 3, Informative

      The fourth iteration (Maemo Fremantle) has a UI built on Hildon/GTK+; the fifth (Maemo Harmattan), a UI built on Qt. I've read 4Q 2010 or 1Q 2011, so app developers have to consider whether or not to use the community-supported Qt API on the existing device, which will become "the" OS in 2011, or build something on GTK+, Maemo/Nokia-supported now, which will become community-supported in Harmattan.

    2. Re:Great pitch by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I won't buy one because, as soon as the N800 and N810 were released, Nokia immediately stopped bothering to support the 770, which was only about a year old. Even Apple doesn't drop support for products that quickly. If I'd paid anything like the full price for the 770, I'd be quite upset, but as it is I just know not to buy Nokia's Maemo products in future.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    3. Re:Great pitch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Bullshit.

      They released two more versions as "hacker editions" -- backports of the new, N8x0-only software to the 770s dated CPU. No, not everything works perfectly, and they weren't exactly pushed out quickly, but second-class support != no support.

      Moreover, with the N8x0/N9x0 transition, they're making obvious good-faith efforts to allow community maintenance of the old OS (although this is limited due to IP issues, they're actually working to resolve these), as well as providing significant support to a community-run backport of the new OS to the old hardware (which is going quite well). The latter is especially auspicious, as a community-run backport means you never have to worry about some corporation arbitrarily ending support, whether after 1 year or 10 years.

  4. If true, this is now the phone to beat. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Finally a company gets it! We want a phone we can hack LEGALLY, that doesn't have Steve Jobs giant head staring at us 24x7 telling us what we can and cannot do with it. If they can really keep the carriers from imposing idiotic restrictions of their own, this will be the phone to beat.

    1. Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat. by Darkness404 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The N900 is -far- superior to the HTC Dream. Lets see here, the HTC Dream ships with 192 MB of RAM, the N900 ships with 256 MB of RAM. The HTC Dream ships with 256 MB of Flash and a MicroSD expansion, the N900 ships with 32 GB of Flash and a MicroSD expansion, The HTC Dream has a screen resolution of 480×320, the N900 has a resolution of 800×480. The HTC Dream uses a 3.2 megapixel camera while the N900 uses a 5.0 megapixel camera. The HTC Dream is without a doubt inferior to the N900.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    2. Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat. by RedK · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You have a root shell on the N900 without having to jailbreak it. What more could you want ?

      --
      "Not to mention all the idiots who use words like boxen."
      Anonymous Coward on Monday August 04, @06:49PM
    3. Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat. by Darkness404 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yes there actually is http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1350401&cid=29244185

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
  5. Perhaps it is. by John+Hasler · · Score: 4, Insightful

    > Is it too late to explain to people why $99+$60/month is not better than
    > $600+$20/month?"

    For some it may be. Why do you think you know what is best for everyone?

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    1. Re:Perhaps it is. by pla · · Score: 3, Interesting

      For some it may be. Why do you think you know what is best for everyone?

      Although not explicitly stated, (at least) the first option comes with a 2-year contract. Thus, it only takes some very simple math to figure out that in two years, the first option comes out to $1539, and the second option to $1080.

      If you'd really like to spend more, feel free to send me the extra $500 and we'll call it good.

    2. Re:Perhaps it is. by oh2 · · Score: 4, Funny

      The lack of competition in the US is funny from a distance. In Sweden we have 4 major carriers with their own nets, plus a number of virtual carriers that buy capacity from the majors. And Sweden is a horrible socialist country where the bad guv'mint decides everything for us...or something...

      --

      Now the world has gone to bed, Darkness won't engulf my head, I can see by infra-red, How I hate the night.

    3. Re:Perhaps it is. by Xiterion · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It allows them to buy the shiny toys they otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford because they lack the basic self discipline to save up $600 to pay for the item. They also have no concept of the cost of something that has monthly payments.

  6. Re:On a 12 month contract it is by Jurily · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So for $20 extra, you get to use all the features of your phone.

  7. Not a 12 month contract by confused+one · · Score: 5, Insightful

    except some carriers require a TWO year contract; so, that becomes:

    60*24 + 100 = 1540
    20*24 + 600 = 1080

    Definitely better off buying the phone outright

  8. Re:it it a phone? by oh2 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Yes, its a phone. Several tech journalists in Sweden has tried it out and it DOES make calls.

    --

    Now the world has gone to bed, Darkness won't engulf my head, I can see by infra-red, How I hate the night.

  9. It's a very odd thing for Nokia to say at launch by ribuck · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is a very negative statement, and from a Nokia vice president no less. It seems a very strange thing to say at the time of launching a new device.

    I hope Nokia is not buttering us up for DRM and lockdown in "Step 5 of 5"...

    Meanwhile, the N900 will succeed wildly if Nokia's marketeers allow it to. We tech people like the device because of its specs, but where are the simple statements of the benefits for its other market sectors?

    "Open source Linux with a root shell" is good enough for me, but what about "A phone with a real Mozilla-based browser", or "A music player with stereo speakers built-in", or even "N900 - comes with apps".

    --
    Paid Q&A/Research
  10. Verizon Says: by Nautical+Insanity · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "exclusivity arrangements promote competition and innovation."

    The foul stench creeping through your nose right now is the smell of total bare-faced bullshit.

  11. You can buy unlocked phones from Nokia today by MaraDNS · · Score: 3, Interesting

    With GSM phones and SIM cards, there is nothing forcing you to buy a phone that is locked or crippled by your phone carrier.

    You can, for example, buy an unlocked Nokia cell phone from any of several places, and then put in, if you are in the US, a T-Mobile or AT&T SIM card. If you're outside of the US, use your local carrier--CDMA cell phones seem to only exist in the US.

    And, of course, if you do end up with a locked phone, there are services on the internet that can unlock the cell phone for you, and reflash the OS on the phone to one that doesn't have whatever features your carrier decided to disable.

    I think the only people who will have a problem are people who are in an area of the US without GSM towers and have to use Verizon.

    --
    MaraDNS is an open-source DNS server.
  12. Codebreaking in 3, 2, 1 ... by NickFortune · · Score: 3, Insightful

    'exclusivity arrangements promote competition and innovation.'

    I'm coming to the conclusion that "competition and innovation" can only mean for "keeps the board in cocaine and blowjobs". From the number of times we see anti-competitive and anti-innovative measures hailed as promoting those same qualities, it seems clear that they can't mean it literally.

    By this stage, I think "cocaine and blowjobs" is about the only credible interpretation remaining.

    --
    Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
  13. On what planet is it only $20/month by SuperKendall · · Score: 3, Informative

    I gave up fighting against bundled plans, because (at least in the U.S.) the un-bundled stuff really isn't cheaper. Witness the "Mi-Fi", a device I'd really love to have and would consider using in place of a phone even - but the plan for that is not that much different than a phone plan, in the U.S. So you are really better off going with a two-year plan and a subsidized device, since you are likely to keep a phone for around two years anyway...

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  14. Re:it it a phone? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Informative

    Straight from the horse's mouth.

    Look at section "Call features"

  15. Re:Nokia isn't a FOSS software firm... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Nokia isn't a FOSS firm? The company that bought all third-party code used in the OS that most of their products ran (Symbian) and open sourced it? The company that's been developing the Maemo stack with community assistance for years and has released three Linux/ARM tablets based on it already? The company that owns Trolltech? Are you talking about the same Nokia as the rest of us?

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  16. Let them know they don't need to worry by gpuk · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If you're considering getting one of these (and I certainly am), why not go to the N900 mini-site and submit your email address to get an alert when the phone goes on general sale. If nothing else it will show Nokia that there is legitimate, widespread interest in this phone and hopefully help them keep their resolve against the evil telcos!

    N900 site is here: http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/ (scroll all the way to the bottom for the form that lets you submit your email addy).

    Also, to whet your appetite of what's likely to come, check out this forum post over on the maemo boards: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=24272

  17. Re:We are talking of the same Nokia, yes indeed by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Their business model is based on locked down symbian

    No, their business is on hardware. None of the Nokia devices I've owned have been locked down at all; they've all come with SDKs and allowed me to run software. Many of their customers add restrictions, but if you buy your phone from a carrier then you get what you deserve. Symbian and Windows Mobile? A bit disingenuous, given how few Nokia devices run Wince; they've shipped a lot more Linux devices than Wince so far.

    I got a 770 (the first tablet in this series) under Nokia's Open Source Developers' Program, for a fraction of the retail price, simply based on existing open source contributions. I probably won't be buying an N900 - the hardware's nice but after trying to develop for Maemo I decided it was more effort than it was worth - but that doesn't mean they don't regard open source as important to their business model (oh, and I forgot to mention their WebKit contributions in my original post).

    The fact that open source Symbian is hard to hack on doesn't surprise me in the least. Closed Symbian was also not at all fun for developers, and neither is Maemo. Based on what I've heard from a friend to used to work for Nokia, I'm much more inclined to blame this on the general level of competence of their developers than on any hostility towards Free Software.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  18. GSM vs CDMA in the USA by Nick+Driver · · Score: 3, Informative

    Where I live and do my traveling, the GSM providers' networks are marginal at best. They are grossly oversold and there are outright large coverage holes, especially with T-mo. Verizon and Sprint's RF coverage is excellent and the EVDO data with Verizon blows away AT&T's 3G data so badly there's no comparison.

    Even if Nokia would offer a CDMA/EDVO version of a smartphone, Verizon would never allow it on their network.

  19. Only patented formats by Tweenk · · Score: 3, Interesting

    http://www.forum.nokia.com/devices/N900

    Here it says that it won't support OGG, but it manages to support the completely abandoned Windows Media shit. The only unpatented format it can play is WAV. And it records to AAC (WTF!!!!). It doesn't know about SVG, but manages to support WMF (fortunately WMF is not patented). This phone is a giant step in the right direction, but it's still not the 'dream platform' for open source development.

    --
    Those who would give up liberty to obtain working drivers, deserve neither liberty nor working drivers.
    1. Re:Only patented formats by Eunuchswear · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Here it says that it won't support OGG,

      What is this "support" shit? It's running Linux, If you want OGG just apt-get install it.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
  20. Ofcourse it an be customized by Greger47 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    From the article:

    Nokia executive vice president Kari Tuutti told Mobile News the N900 user interface cannot be customised to include network applications, which will be a bone of contention with the networks.

    Tuutti said: "We have a good, long lasting relationship with the networks, but we understand that they may not be happy with the user interface because it cannot be customised."

    Which is total BS since Nokia has full control of the software on the device. The only reason for not customizing or locking down the N900 must be that they don't want to. A ballsy move, I really hope Nokia (and other manufacturers as well) will manage to wrestle control away from the networks and their nickel-and-dime walled gardens.

    /greger

    1. Re:Ofcourse it an be customized by Arimus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And not to mention Nokia know the N900 is not for your average cellphone user but more biased towards tech lovers; who will get very peeved with any lock downs and will just unlock the dammed thing anyway...

      --
      --- Users are like bacteria -> Each one causing a thousand tiny crises until the host finally gives up and dies.
  21. Re:Let's see how locked down Maemo is, then by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I have a Maemo device, which has been running custom software since I got it back in 2006. There is a Nokia-supported way of installing a new kernel and it includes an apt front end that can be configured to connect to third-party repositories (although doing so requires clicking on a 'yes, I realise that Nokia will not support the software on my device if I've replaced it with bits from a third party' box). I use a third-party bluetooth keyboard driver, a third-party xterm, a third-party install of vim and OpenSSH regularly. I've never tried replacing the X server, but given that I have root access on the device (via a supported mechanism, no jailbreaking required), I imagine it would be pretty trivial.

    The firmware update utility may require signed code (I've not checked; I don't think it does, given that there is the community-developed 'hackers edition' firmware that installs fine with it) but once it's installed I have complete control over everything in the filesystem. The proprietary bits are things like Flash and (in earlier versions) Opera - you can't redistribute these without permission from the copyright holders, but there's nothing stopping you from removing them from your device or providing scripts that replace it with something else on other peoples' devices.

    So let's, indeed, come back in 2-3 months and see if Nokia suddenly reverses its policy. You seem to be acting like Maemo is something brand new, rather than a platform that Nokia has been shipping for three years.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News