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Archiving Digital Artwork For Museum Purchase?

An anonymous reader writes "I am an artist working with 3d software to create animations and digital prints. For now my work just gets put on screening DVDs and BluRays and the original .mov and 3d files get backed up. But museums and big art collectors do want to purchase these animations. However as we all know archival DVDs are not really archival. So I want to ask the Slashdot readers, what can I give to the museum when they acquire my digital work for their collection so that it can last and be seen long after I am dead? No other artist or institution I know of have come up with any real solution to this issue yet, so I thought Slashdot readers may have an idea. These editions can be sold for a large amount of money, so it doesn't have to be a cheap solution."

266 comments

  1. Blended solution? by t00le · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I would provide backups in tape, cd, dvd, usb flash, sd card, external hd and anything else that can hold the work. Hopefully they will keep adding other backup technologies, but once you're dead who cares. Right? :)

    --
    When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail
    1. Re:Blended solution? by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 1

      Tape is the way to go if longevity is the main concern.

      There is a reason Unix uses tar.

    2. Re:Blended solution? by NoYob · · Score: 1
      I see what you're getting at.

      Right. He fakes his death, his artwork then becomes worth a fortune, he lives as a very rich guy under another name. Brilliant!

      And if he becomes too famous, well, he can do what Elvis did and live in obscurity, occasionally appearing to keep his fans interested.

      --
      It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
    3. Re:Blended solution? by yo_tuco · · Score: 5, Funny

      "...but once you're dead who cares. Right? :)"

      Are you kidding? That's when his work becomes its most valuable. He'll be rich!

    4. Re:Blended solution? by C0vardeAn0nim0 · · Score: 5, Informative

      none of those are proved to last centuries.

      tape might be a durable medium, but is still requires a compatible drive. even if you supply the drive, the bus/port/connector might not be available in the future, also electronics degrade over time (specially the ones that store firmware in flash memory and/or contain capacitors). so even if you sell your work with: a) computer; b) operating system and software; c) drive; d) tapes. there's no guarantee.

      the same is true for all of the media mentioned by parent.

      only solution guaranteed to last centuries ?

      *** PAPER AND INK ***

      yes, your heard me. ink and paper. well stored it can last thousands of years. you have to print your files as a very compact, machine readable data matrix, store it along with human readable books explaining the technology neccessary to read the print-outs, including schematics, source code, etc. no need to mention that the file formats and software need to be open source, or you need a license to the code.

      this way future generations will have everything neccessary to put toghether a hardware/software combination capable of reading the data matrices, convert the bits to files and display the result.

      this could be an art project on itself, since you can embed paterns and colors on the data matrices. check wikipedia page for "QR codes" to see examples of data matrices with embeded art. very cool stuff.

      --
      What ? Me, worry ?
    5. Re:Blended solution? by Trigun · · Score: 1

      Print it out on paper, in a binary file.

      Then print out every wikipedia article that deals with file formats that you think are relevant.

    6. Re:Blended solution? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Rich? Well... at least his cost of living will go down.

    7. Re:Blended solution? by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 1

      In the case of a 3d model, would it not be easier to 'print' the model - use a 3D prototyper to create a physical version of the file. If anyone wants to manipulate it in future, they can scan it back in (the technology to do this already exists too). Other materials can be printed too. Rather than try to solve the 'how do we read this file format in the future' problem, sidestep it entirely by providing what you're trying to get across in human-readable form. It may be worth providing printouts of the binary too for exact replication purposes, but a copy which shows what the file is supposed to look like if you've decoded it right will make life much easier in the future.

      --
      FGD 135
    8. Re:Blended solution? by jedidiah · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Tape is an ancient technology and Unix is similarly ancient.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    9. Re:Blended solution? by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Paper and ink doesn't even last that long (necessarily)

      Like anything else. It call boils down to how dilligent you are about
      putting everything together. You can cut corners and have a crap
      quality archival copy of a book, DVD or tape.

      "tape is more reliable" is a very dangerous assumption because there
      are some really crappy tapes out there that any enterprise tape vendor
      would tell you to STAY AWAY FROM.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    10. Re:Blended solution? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      Also tape is not really stable - the magnetic oxide flakes-off over time.

      I'd say the most stable technology we have for storage is Flash RAM since it has no moving parts, and if you're willing to expend the money, then a ROM is the absolute best. Even after we're all dust, the ROMs inside Atari, Sega, and Nintendo cartridges will still be readable.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    11. Re:Blended solution? by slarrg · · Score: 1

      Down? I don't think any amount of money can make him living again.

    12. Re:Blended solution? by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      only solution guaranteed to last centuries ?
      *** PAPER AND INK ***

      Um... stone? (But it won't blend.)

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    13. Re:Blended solution? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am extremely tired of this question.

      Don't go to paper and ink, that's stupid. What are you, Amish?

      Here's an idea... copy the fucking DVDs before they wear out. In fact, make 10 copies. Keep several copies live on disk, and some offsite backups.

      Why do people act as though they can only have one archival copy, and never copy it again to a newer media before the old one wears out?

    14. Re:Blended solution? by bertoelcon · · Score: 1

      You would have to do the schematics, source code, and stuff in a language that might still be useful later on. I would pick English and COBAL. English would IMHO have the most texts surviving to give cross references and translation for notations on the schematics, and COBAL just seems like good measure unless you print out the binary in compiled machine code as well making the language of the source code irrelevant.

      --
      Anything can be found funny, from a certain point of view.
    15. Re:Blended solution? by NewWorldDan · · Score: 1

      Completely impractical for a large scale work. A 2gb movie file would take thousands of pages. And let's not also forget the golden rule of data storage: longevity is inversely proportional to density. All else being equal, a lower density medium will last longer than a high density medium. So longeveity becomes an economical tradeoff. A page with less information encoded will be readable for a much longer period of time than a page with smaller features.

      The virtue of digital media is that you can make unlimited perfect copies. As such, conservation then becomes an issue of good data storage hygine. Copy and validate, repeatedly. And as you say, maintain documentation on the data format, and as another poster has pointed out, always transcode to current file formats; maintain both current and original. In the event of a post apocolypse reconstruction, it will likely be lost. At the same time, however, your paper solution would probably also suffer enough damage to make any worthwhile reconstruction impossible. All we are is dust in the wind, dude.

    16. Re:Blended solution? by C0vardeAn0nim0 · · Score: 1

      a 3d model can't capture particle effects, translucent creations such as ghosts and anything non-solid to tell the truth (think fire and water). plus, the posters creations are movies, not stactic models. which means, he needs the files.

      --
      What ? Me, worry ?
    17. Re:Blended solution? by Sebastien_Bailard · · Score: 1
      A patron or institution may be willing to pay money for a figurine, small or large, when they may be disinclined to spend money a recorded film. (Just as with Penny Arcade, Spider Man, or LOTR figurines.)

      The buyer can use a figurine differently from media, displaying it on a shelf or in a case, perhaps next to the recorded media or a screen playing the same.

      For extra points, take the sculpt to an art bronze foundry and have them cast the piece as a bronze. See "From Clay to Bronze: A Studio Guide to Figurative Sculpture" by Tuck Langland.

      You can sculpt the piece by hand out of wax, oilclay, or sculpty if you don't have a 3D printer.

    18. Re:Blended solution? by mlush · · Score: 1

      for a 1Mb animation

      Assuming 1mm2 dots
      A4 sheet of paper 210 Ã-- 297mm = 62370mm2 = 7796 bytes call it 8kb = 62500 pages(double sided)
      Encoding with 16 colors for 4 bytes per pixel = 32kb/page ~ 15000 pages
      reduce the pixel size to .25mm = 256kb/page ~ 1900 pages

      I'd think one could reasonably expect that 16 colors and .25mm dots would be readable more or less indefinitely smaller pixels and more colors would mean fewer pages but a higher chance of corruption...

      How low could one go? Printing to film at say 4000dpi? ~ 160dpmm ~ 1.2 pages (single sided) and that just to store 1Mb if he is using a DVD that suggests gigabyte files > 800 sheets per Gb doubling the number of colors encoding would half the number of sheets. then there is the faff of reading the sheets

      Compare and contrast putting the data on an archival server with an offsite backup and migrating to a new server every 5 years

    19. Re:Blended solution? by RMH101 · · Score: 1

      Just give them one format and let their professional archivists sort it out: that's their job, after all.

    20. Re:Blended solution? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Rather than investing time and money in the solutions you outline, why not just pay someone else to do it?

      The Internet Archive offers a subscription based archival system for video. They take care to mirror their collection and keep it accessible to current technology. It's probably cheaper than trying to store media or paper in the long term.

      --
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      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    21. Re:Blended solution? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      none of those are proved to last centuries.

      tape might be a durable medium, but is still requires a compatible drive. even if you supply the drive, the bus/port/connector might not be available in the future, also electronics degrade over time (specially the ones that store firmware in flash memory and/or contain capacitors). so even if you sell your work with: a) computer; b) operating system and software; c) drive; d) tapes. there's no guarantee.

      the same is true for all of the media mentioned by parent.

      only solution guaranteed to last centuries ?

      *** PAPER AND INK ***

      yes, your heard me. ink and paper. well stored it can last thousands of years. you have to print your files as a very compact, machine readable data matrix, store it along with human readable books explaining the technology neccessary to read the print-outs, including schematics, source code, etc. no need to mention that the file formats and software need to be open source, or you need a license to the code.

      this way future generations will have everything neccessary to put toghether a hardware/software combination capable of reading the data matrices, convert the bits to files and display the result.

      this could be an art project on itself, since you can embed paterns and colors on the data matrices. check wikipedia page for "QR codes" to see examples of data matrices with embeded art. very cool stuff.

      Back in the 60's punched paper tape was used before magnetic tape.
      Or bring back the card punch - binary column mode.

    22. Re:Blended solution? by ResidentSourcerer · · Score: 1

      Additional archival solutions that approach Deep Time:

      1. Fired porcelain. Can get wet. Less shock resistant than paper. Bulky.

      2. Mineral pigment paint on canvas. Production time for animations is excessive.

      3. Carved stone. Even more difficult to move than #1. Weathering issues if left outside too long.

      #1 and #3 have the advantage that they cannot be used by barbarian hordes as butt wipe or fire starter.

      One of the issues for Deep Time archiving is unwitting steganography. The future viewer needs to recognize that there is data there. As data storage gets more compact, it's harder to recognize that there is anything there. Given a pile of CD's which ones are coasters. which are data?

      The coding needs to done in a way that is human recognizeable. E.g.Text expressed as morse code is not as recognizeable as text in words. A stream of bits that is a jpeg is not as recognizable as a bit map. And neither is as recognizable as a print. For archiving our data storage needs human codecs If not ink on paper then something that looks like ink on paper. If you want machine codecs, then you have to figure out how to make a machine that survives deep time. The closest common item we have right now is a solid state wrist watch -- which is still pretty shallow.

      Ultimate data storage needs to be fractal in nature, with the steps between levels small enough that at each level there are hints that there is another level.

      For example: Suppose you had a rectangle of phase change material whose reflectivity was different with the two phase changes:

      The top level masks off the title of the work. So those area are not used for data. Net effect big block letters. The next level down has data blocks eliminated so that you see an abstract of the work -- the dust cover summary. The next level down has the index to the work.

      If done as text, typical ink covers 5-10% of the page. So at each level you lose 10% of the data capacity. A seven level hierarchical data storage still has about 50% of the full capacity.

      --
      Third Career: Tree Farmer Second Career: Computer Geek First Career: Teacher, Outdoor Instructor, Photographer.
  2. Don't worry about it. by Matt+Perry · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Don't worry about it. Give it to them on a DVD. It'll then be up to the museum to take care of the art the same way they take care of the other art they have. I don't think it's realistic to expect to be able to read a DVD 100, 50, or even 30 years from now. I'm sure that the museum will move the data to an appropriate storage medium as technology advances.

    --
    Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
    1. Re:Don't worry about it. by fredjh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Moreover, if you don't try to prevent copying, they should upgrade it to their newest technologies as time goes by.

      I don't expect the video tape I bought 25 years ago to be useful forever, but I should be able to copy it to DVD... then BluRay.

      I should be, anyway.

      --
      Stupid, sexy Flanders.
    2. Re:Don't worry about it. by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 0, Troll

      I think that was the entire point. He either wanted to make sure that the museum *couldnt* copy it, or wanted to prohibit them from doing so. My response would be 'goodluckwiththat'

    3. Re:Don't worry about it. by infalliable · · Score: 1

      They should do that, but history tells us that they probably won't.

    4. Re:Don't worry about it. by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Because a museum may only have one person who is sometimes in charge of making sure the artwork is maintained, meanwhile having thousands or more pieces to worry about, many of them in the basement. Otherwise you get the Hollywood effect; someone shoves the film in a box, and a few decades later someone looks in the box and realizes things have deteriorated too far. Or the NASA effect when they realize they don't have the right equipment handy to even read back the tapes.

      Best bet, paper tape. No wait, plasticized paper tape. And a printed copy of a the paper tape encoding used, as well as a printed copy of the specs of the file format you are using. Then hundreds of years from now, someone may be able to recreate things. Definitely impractical if you've got many megabytes of data, plus you may need even more storage required just for a viewing application.

      Next best maybe, is figure out how to do long term archival of film, then film the animation and archive that.

      One huge snag, is that archival for art is more than just a secure copy for the future. That archive will need to be reused many times in the future, not just once. Ie, what can survive being reused for one month of viewing every 10 to 20 years? A single CD would be worn out in time, a DVD player would break, etc.

    5. Re:Don't worry about it. by SilverJets · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Let them worry about preservation.

      Don't most museums have at least one archivist anyways?

    6. Re:Don't worry about it. by Joe+Decker · · Score: 2, Informative

      I didn't read where the poster said that, I think you may have misread the article.

    7. Re:Don't worry about it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Reading comprehension fail.

    8. Re:Don't worry about it. by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      There's an odd aura in the art world around original tangible artifacts, though. If the solution is to just have the museum copy it occasionally, it might reduce the perceived value of the work, as compared to a digital work that's permanently embodied in some device, such that 100 years from now someone can say, "ah yeah, there's the animation of so-and-so, still on the original [device]". Otherwise anyone who has a copy of it has a copy as good as the museum or rich collector, and we can't have that, now can we. ;-)

    9. Re:Don't worry about it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What article were you reading?

    10. Re:Don't worry about it. by ArundelCastle · · Score: 1

      Exactly, it will be in their mandate to do so. Museums, Archives, and Record Centers are THE professional institutions at preserving all forms of media. (I should know, I work for a couple.) Assuming they're worth their salt, of course. Art galleries should have at least one curator with ample salt -- helps keep them fresher longer. ;)

      Think of it this way, if you were a painter, it wouldn't be your responsibility to sell them a vault to keep the paint from fading. And what are they going to do after you're dead? Ask your estate for the money back because they forgot to backup? No. Not your problem.
      Give them two copies on a gold-layered DVD and they'll be delighted. I've taken donations on floppy disk within the last 10 years.

      Or better yet, ask them what their preferred format is. They're the client.

    11. Re:Don't worry about it. by Sebastien_Bailard · · Score: 1
      True.

      Most of this discussion ignores the fact that curators and archivists have fiercely discussed and analyzed this very subject. I get 1.5 M (apparent) results when I google 'digital curation' and that's without querying amazon, google schoolar, a university library, etc.

      Google 'digital curation'. It's like googling Ron Paul, but about digital curation.

  3. Holographic cube storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    How about some of that fancy holographic cube storage I've been hearing about?

    At least if it fails it'll be pretty to look at!
    g=

  4. ones and zeros by Jhon · · Score: 1

    All written on vellum.

    1. Re:ones and zeros by AlphaBit · · Score: 0

      I wonder what would be wrong with a modernized version of this? The process of binding chemicals to a substrate to record data was an effective and durable system even thousands of years ago. I guess the issue with modernization(miniaturize and automate) of this technology might one of balancing durability vs. data density. nano-punchcards?

  5. Digital archives must be live... by nweaver · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The problem: a digital archive MUST be a live archive.

    Every X years (with X being a reasonably low number, probably 3-5 is good for safety), everything in the archive must be both copied AND transcoded, with both the original and transcoded version saved.

    The original requirement is obvious, and keeps data degredation from having an effect, but transcoding: opening it up in the latest software version and saving it in the software's most up to date format, is also necessary, lest the source material become unusable, like a wire recorder is today.

    --
    Test your net with Netalyzr
    1. Re:Digital archives must be live... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Transcoding of formats like .gif and .jpg have not been required since their inception, and I doubt that they ever will be.

    2. Re:Digital archives must be live... by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 2, Interesting

      lest the source material become unusable, like a wire recorder is today.

      Why would a wire recorder be unusable? (I had a friend who had one in high school) It's a lot easier to repair a wire recorder than a CD or DVD player. (Simple vacuum tubes, capacitors and resistors) When the wire breaks, you can just tie it back together. Try that with a broken DVD.

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    3. Re:Digital archives must be live... by Magic5Ball · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Do you remember the GEM image file format from 20 years ago? Does your set-top box/optical disc player show .rm files from 10 years ago? Transcoding previously popular formats is already a problem.

      --
      There are 1.1... kinds of people.
    4. Re:Digital archives must be live... by jedidiah · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I remember the JPEG format from 10 years ago. Try harder.

      This is why you use open formats to begin with rather than trying to find the most obscure thing you can find.

      If it's a platform specific format (Spectrum/Degas) or an application specific format then chances are that your format will be obsolete before all of your storage media fails.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    5. Re:Digital archives must be live... by ghostdoc · · Score: 1

      Agree.

      Digital storage makes perfect copies but uses media that don't survive well (mostly because of the incredible data densities used).
      Making redundant copies is trivial, and replenishing those copies regularly (and completely accurately) is also trivial...so the best way of storing a digital file is on a series of different digital media, each replaced every few years with fresh copies. Every few months is better.

      The fact we haven't got a commercial solution to do this yet is a different problem ;)

      --
      Business/App ideas are like arseholes: everyone's got one, they're mostly shit, but very rarely they contain a diamond
    6. Re:Digital archives must be live... by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Documents with formatting perhaps, science data in wierd formats from early space exploration need transcoding perhaps. But most forms of art in text, pictures, sound and video are trivial to the extreme. Also, I don't think there's reason to believe we'll continue to have a million different formats. Without diving too far into information theory, things are not infinitely compressible. We are going to quite quickly - at the timescales we're talking about here - create codecs that are close to that limit, and that 20 years after that are patent free. At that point, why bother using anything else?

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    7. Re:Digital archives must be live... by Magic5Ball · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't call .rm obscure since it was the .divx of its day with RealPlayer installed on most Windows and Apple machines. Nor was GEM application specific, in that it was supported by apps on almost all the platforms (Amiga, DOS, Mac) which had usable pro-sumer publishing apps at the time. The point is that wide popularity now does nothing to ensure accessibility in the future.

      --
      There are 1.1... kinds of people.
  6. digitalartisnotfineart? by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Whoever tagged this story "digitalartisnotfineart" needs a cluebat. I'd like to hear a good argument for that -- ideally one that's not a rehash of the "video games are not art" debate.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    1. Re:digitalartisnotfineart? by Microlith · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's the unilateral opinion that anything that isn't physical, or can be easily copied, is suddenly lacking of all artistic merit and value.

    2. Re:digitalartisnotfineart? by Abreu · · Score: 5, Funny

      That's nothing... I had to restrain myself from taggin it "getarealjob" ;^)

      --
      No sig for the moment.
    3. Re:digitalartisnotfineart? by tftp · · Score: 1

      It's the unilateral opinion that anything that isn't physical, or can be easily copied, is suddenly lacking of all artistic merit and value

      Poor Mozart...

    4. Re:digitalartisnotfineart? by 4D6963 · · Score: 1, Funny

      Digital art can't be easily copied? That's a pretty novel claim! :D

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    5. Re:digitalartisnotfineart? by 4D6963 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Oh wait crap, understood your post the wrong way around :-(

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    6. Re:digitalartisnotfineart? by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 0

      Or Shakespeare, for that matter.

      I think it has more to do with two things:

      It can be easily copied, thus, it's implied that you could've copied large parts from elsewhere;

      And it's "too easy" in general. It's really a pathetic "getoffmylawn" argument, and it's a bit like the people who still use C/C++ and Assembly telling me I'm not a Real Programmer because I use Ruby. There are good arguments that can be made that low-level languages are currently more efficient, and are likely to stay more efficient. But the fact that I use something higher level doesn't imply I'm stupid or lazy.

      In other words, it's like a hand-painting animator resenting Photoshop, or someone who hand-crafts each frame in Photoshop complaining about 3D animation.

      Ultimately, the inevitable result is that the "old way" most likely lives on, but becomes less popular. Video didn't kill all the radio stars, just most of them. Pixar didn't kill Dreamworks, and neither of them are likely to kill anime.

      I think all this teaches us is that proponents of "fine" art are just that much more arrogant, pretentious, and slower to adapt.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    7. Re:digitalartisnotfineart? by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's the same reason that when an art museum pays N million dollars for a piece, then years later finds out it was a forgery, the museum doesn't just say, "Oh, well, it was good enough".

      Art is not about beauty or aesthetics. Original art has warmth, depth and soul, similar to the way monster cables appeal to audiophiles. (Not that a *real* audiophile would be caught dead with anything as pedestrian as a monster cable, but I digress)

      If you can't see the warmth, taste the depth, or perceive the soul of a piece of fine art, well, you are just a philistine and should just stay the f*** out of the museum.

      Anyway people put mystical value on things all the time. The original Declaration of Independence or Constitution aren't really any more useful than the copies, and weren't even originally archived, but we still keep them better protected than most people's bank accounts.

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    8. Re:digitalartisnotfineart? by Tanktalus · · Score: 1

      Oh, no. Mozart put lots of beautiful black dots and lines down on paper. That is the beauty, the art. It becomes suddenly bland when someone tries to use it as if it were an instruction manual on playing music.

    9. Re:digitalartisnotfineart? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sorry, ignore me, i'm just testing something

    10. Re:digitalartisnotfineart? by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 0

      It's the same reason that when an art museum pays N million dollars for a piece, then years later finds out it was a forgery, the museum doesn't just say, "Oh, well, it was good enough".

      In other words, you're comparing digital artwork to a forgery. Nice.

      Art is not about beauty or aesthetics.

      So what's it about?

      Original art has warmth, depth and soul,

      And why can't digital artwork have this? For that matter, why can't it be considered "original"?

      You might also want to test whether your definition of "art" excludes Mozart. It seems to, right now.

      If you can't see the warmth, taste the depth, or perceive the soul of a piece of fine art, well, you are just a philistine and should just stay the f*** out of the museum.

      Yep. And the symphony hall. Oh wait...

      The original Declaration of Independence or Constitution aren't really any more useful than the copies, and weren't even originally archived, but we still keep them better protected than most people's bank accounts.

      They're also historically valuable, as is most original artwork.

      I am not suggesting that a copy or a forgery is as good as having the original piece, or that we shouldn't preserve originals.

      What I'm saying is that just because something was originally created digitally doesn't make it "not art".

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    11. Re:digitalartisnotfineart? by Magic5Ball · · Score: 1

      > What I'm saying is that just because something was originally created digitally doesn't make it "not art".

      Sure it does. If I'm doing reasonably well in the business of marketing and distributing "art", the market for "art" is as broad or as narrow as I want to define it. If my infrastructure for marketing and distributing art was built for handling one kind of starting material (widgets in meatspace), and if access to the infrastructure is relatively scarce (galleries) because they require much capital investment, I have a significant disincentive to allow the definition of "art" to drift outside of my core competencies and intermediation.

      On the consuming side, owners of "art" may get warm fuzzies from showing off their pieces because of the exclusivity alone. If exclusivity is not a part of the art, they might have to start to *think* about substantiative ways in which the art may be appreciated and valued.

      (This reminds me of that other debate where those who wish to control the label pay more attention to the format than the substance of the content.)

      --
      There are 1.1... kinds of people.
    12. Re:digitalartisnotfineart? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      better protected than most people's bank accounts.

      Rocky Mountain Bank would rather you not say that.

    13. Re:digitalartisnotfineart? by srmalloy · · Score: 1

      Art is not about beauty or aesthetics. Original art has warmth, depth and soul, similar to the way monster cables appeal to audiophiles. (Not that a *real* audiophile would be caught dead with anything as pedestrian as a monster cable, but I digress)
       
      If you can't see the warmth, taste the depth, or perceive the soul of a piece of fine art, well, you are just a philistine and should just stay the f*** out of the museum.

      And you miss the point as well. Art is inherently subjective. If you "can't see the warmth, taste the depth, or perceive the soul of a piece of fine art", then that piece is not 'fine art' to you; that doesn't prevent it from being 'fine art' to anyone else. For example, Jackson Pollock's paintings do nothing for me; to me, they may be 'art', but they're not 'fine art'. Many other people disagree; enough to value his paintings highly, have them displayed in museums, and make selling prints of them profitable. Art is inherently an artifact of our differences.

    14. Re:digitalartisnotfineart? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Original art has warmth, depth and soul, similar to the way monster cables appeal to audiophiles.

      No, shitty yet expensive art is much closer to Monster cables. The people who buy it convince themselves that it's better, but it is still shit.

    15. Re:digitalartisnotfineart? by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      If I'm doing reasonably well in the business of marketing and distributing "art", the market for "art" is as broad or as narrow as I want to define it.

      In other words, the definition of art is an opinion, thus not something you have a monopoly on.

      If my infrastructure for marketing and distributing art was built for handling one kind of starting material (widgets in meatspace), and if access to the infrastructure is relatively scarce (galleries) because they require much capital investment, I have a significant disincentive to allow the definition of "art" to drift outside of my core competencies and intermediation.

      So you clearly would've never allowed music to be classified as art, if it was up to you.

      Fortunately, Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, and others, to say nothing of modern musicians, have proven that it's not up to you. Indeed, they aren't called "musicians" anymore, they're called "artists".

      On the consuming side, owners of "art" may get warm fuzzies from showing off their pieces because of the exclusivity alone.

      One could easily create a DRM scheme, and even make it revolve around physical copies. And that's not "warm fuzzies", it's the "look at me" factor that causes people to buy the "I Am Rich" iPhone app -- which might now be considered a collector's item.

      Forgeries are easier, but they're still possible with paintings. There was a recent episode of The Mentalist showing forgeries which were passed off as real -- nearly successful, except that the forger in question was rather a legitimate reproductionist, who always puts some detail into the painting proving it wasn't the original.

      If exclusivity is not a part of the art, they might have to start to *think* about substantiative ways in which the art may be appreciated and valued.

      I wouldn't count on that.

      Good points, if a bit cynical. Still reminds me of that comment by Steven Spielberg that he'd never seen a video game that made him cry -- which lead to the obvious examples of Final Fantasy VII and Shadow of the Colossus, making him look quite foolish.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    16. Re:digitalartisnotfineart? by Magic5Ball · · Score: 1

      I'm glad that (I think) you caught on to the sarcasm.

      My visual artist friends tell me that in my North American city of 1 million people, the art market operates with substantial features of a monopoly. Because it relies so heavily on word of mouth advertising, and because the total number of substantial galleries can be counted on two hands, and because the professional art world is tightly network in a mostly closed manner, a small number of individuals routinely collude to define the market, its suppliers, prices, products, tastes, aesthetics, etc. Any supplier who tries to work outside the system is excluded from working within the system, while those who are offered a chance to work within the system must do so under generally unfair terms with exclusivity. Non-system galleries (which touch more people and move more pieces) than system galleries are forced to rural areas and are the only source of variety in the region.

      My musician friends tell me that the regional and national markets work in a similar way, but thankfully we have a functional local aural arts market.

      Also, I think we both mean substantially the same thing, positional/status goods, by warm fuzzies and look at me items.

      --
      There are 1.1... kinds of people.
    17. Re:digitalartisnotfineart? by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      I'm glad that (I think) you caught on to the sarcasm.

      It is hard to tell, sometimes.

      But I was also arguing against the people who actually do have the attitude you're mocking.

      Let me put it this way: There are people who actually believe Stephen Colbert is a conservative. So it's not always enough to just let the sarcasm stand on its own -- sometimes, you have to explain why the message being mocked is wrong.

      I think we both mean substantially the same thing, positional/status goods, by warm fuzzies and look at me items.

      Same thing, but a different attitude, I think. "Warm fuzzies" usually refers to "That warm fuzzy feeling you get" in certain circumstances, like knowing that you're doing something good for the world, or being part of a community that loves you back...

      It's the kind of thing I might associate with, say, giving money to charity, or saving the environment. I don't usually associate it with something like buying a car (unless it's a Prius).

      The only time I could associate "warm fuzzies" with artwork, especially that kind of "fine art", is when I saw my parents buy a painting or two directly from the artist, in his shop in a back alley in Ollantaytambo, Peru.

      Other than that, it usually seems kind of cold.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    18. Re:digitalartisnotfineart? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But the original declaration has maps drawn by the Illuminati that tell us where the Vatican hides Jesus.

  7. Offer Them a Backup Plan, Not a Single Media by eldavojohn · · Score: 3, Insightful

    No other artist or institution I know of have come up with any real solution to this issue yet ...

    I don't know if we'll ever have what you're thinking of as everything we've designed has a finite shelf life. There might even be some fundamental law about entropy increasing in a closed system that could prove you'll never be 100% okay.

    But instead what I would offer them is a plan as a solution, not a type of media. Offer to deliver it on whatever they are most comfortable handling. You could deliver a DVD or Solid State Storage device such as an SD card or USB stick and suggest they store that offsite in a vault or something fireproof while you give them additional copies to retain and use locally that they can put on a networked RAID. Then at the end of the proposed shelf life, routine maintenance is performed on the stored media in the vault to bring it up to date while the local copies are still good. If they maintain this sort of redundancy and check the status of the media, they should be okay. They might even hire someone like Iron Mountain or another storage solution to maintain their backups.

    Expensive? Very. Your other option is to do the same on your end and (don't promise this or tell them to rely on you) hopefully your kids will continue with it to persist your life's work.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Offer Them a Backup Plan, Not a Single Media by JSBiff · · Score: 1

      Parent is absolutely correct. People, apparently even people who work with digital for a living, seem to miss one of the most important inherent attributes of digital technology: as long as the original copy has not become corrupt, it is possible to create *perfect* copies. This means that the most important part of preserving any digital work, is to *copy* it to another medium, before the previous medium/copy becomes unreadable.

      The only other issue, as another poster mentioned, is making sure that the data is in a format that current software knows how to read/decode, so you must also give them the right to transcode or otherwise export the work to other digital formats. (For example, transforming 3D model, texture, animation, and scene data from one format to another

      As long as you give the museum the right to make backup copies and export/transform, there's NOTHING else you have to do to make sure the work will be preserved for the generations - at that point, it is the responsibility of the curators to preserve it.

      We're not talking about an oil-on-canvas, or some sort of plaster fresco here, we're talking about digital. With digital, the storage medium is not inherently important (if it were, then you'd have to sell them your hard drive).

    2. Re:Offer Them a Backup Plan, Not a Single Media by mlts · · Score: 2, Informative

      Don't forget error correction and recovery. Undetected bitrot for long term archiving is not a good thing. Just having CRCs and/or cryptographic signatures will just tell you that something got corrupted, but won't help fix it.

      On the DVD front, something like DVDDisaster and a MD5 signature utility should help there. For data files in general, something that does .PAR records, or an archive format (WinRAR, StuffIt Deluxe) that supports built in recovery records. Of course archive formats suffer the issue of making sure the archiving program is still around in the future.

    3. Re:Offer Them a Backup Plan, Not a Single Media by Mr+Z · · Score: 1

      The only other issue, as another poster mentioned, is making sure that the data is in a format that current software knows how to read/decode, so you must also give them the right to transcode or otherwise export the work to other digital formats. (For example, transforming 3D model, texture, animation, and scene data from one format to another

      This is where open formats and implementations, or at least openly documented formats and reference implementations, can come in handy. If you can back up reference material on how to decode the art along with the art, then if any copy survives, then someone motivated enough can reconstruct the output. For example, if you make a video in Ogg Theora format, why not include the source code for the Theora and Ogg libraries along with the related specs? Chances are that the size of the art itself is much larger than the codec and documentation. Think of it as something akin to the Rosetta Stone, applied digitally.

      Even if there are no C compilers 1000 years from now (unlikely, as I suspect C is the cockroach of programming languages), there will be plenty of surviving references on how to interpret the code.. Heck, even today we can understand and "execute" Lady Ada Lovelace's Analytical Engine software. Even if there aren't, I'd posit that algorithms rendered in symbolic language are easier to decode sans reference than human text.

      For relatively compact data, such as models, perhaps export them in a generic descriptive format such as XML. (I say relatively compact, since I imagine a detailed model may be large, but a movie rendered from that model at high resolution could be significantly larger.) Again, a transparent, clearly structured self documenting format can be much more easily reconstructed than a proprietary format. If you go XML, don't forget to include the schema!

      --Joe

      (PS. I call C the cockroach of programming languages out of love. Really, I do.)

    4. Re:Offer Them a Backup Plan, Not a Single Media by Mr+Z · · Score: 2, Informative

      MD5s won't help except to detect corruption, as you say in your first sentence. I imagine having duplicate copies of the DVD, recorded identically would be a cheap, low-tech alternative. Even if some blocks on one copy get destroyed, chances are those same blocks are good on another. With enough parallel copies, you can be sure to find a good version of each block on at least one.

      While DVDs might only last a decade, it's not like they'll entirely go *poof* on day 3653. They'll begin degrading, but each one will degrade differently.

    5. Re:Offer Them a Backup Plan, Not a Single Media by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      use par2 for the ecc part

    6. Re:Offer Them a Backup Plan, Not a Single Media by Joe+Decker · · Score: 1

      As long as you give the museum the right to make backup copies and export/transform, there's NOTHING else you have to do to make sure the work will be preserved for the generations - at that point, it is the responsibility of the curators to preserve it.

      Not quite. I agree with the latter, but you're wrong, I believe, about the first part of your statement.

      Poster has already stated that, to some extent, it's clear the museum in question does not at present have that much of a clue about how they're dealing with this. On the other hand, digital media will, I expect, become a larger part of that museum's ownership over the next couple decades, if the museum is going to survive, it will, probably, eventually, get a clue. Picking a decently archival medium, delivering multiple copies, and using a decently archival (read: popular) file format or two, might actually help the data survive the period of incompetence.

      (otherwise, I totally agree with your points.)

    7. Re:Offer Them a Backup Plan, Not a Single Media by mlts · · Score: 1

      Very good idea, that should be assumed.

      One idea may to be divide the file into archive segments, all with a CRC. Then you know which file parts on damaged DVD "A" are recoverable, and which are on damaged DVD "B". Then combine those, plus recovery info, and there is a high chance of recovering the complete package.

      I like multiple backup levels, such as keeping them on a RAID device, tapes, archival DVDs, and in the cloud. This way, should some means of backup fail (cloud provider declares bankruptcy), you have at least 2-3 others.

    8. Re:Offer Them a Backup Plan, Not a Single Media by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know if we'll ever have what you're thinking of as everything we've designed has a finite shelf life.

      Plastic punch cards have the longest shelf life I can think of.

    9. Re:Offer Them a Backup Plan, Not a Single Media by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think any one form of digital storage will be adequately durable. Caring for these digital files will be an ongoing effort, not a once-and-done distribution of media.

      I would store the digital archives in multiple locations (at least 3). Each location should have a disk farm with ZFS, so bit rot could be detected and fixed. Periodically (cron job, whatever) copy each file to a different volume, check for errors against the parent and parent's offsite siblings, then erase parent file. Tape backups should exist for disaster recovery purposes, and should also be refreshed from time to time. The hardware and software for the project will need updating from time to time. As hardware improves, I would expect costs to drop, but there will be a cost to maintain it. Power, people, real estate, replacement equipment, etc.

      Medical institutions have to back up huge amounts of data for a long period of time (CAT scans, MRIs, etc), and people here with experience in medical IT might be able to enlighten you about planning for long-term storage of digital files.

      How big are these files? How many of them are there? How many more are anticipated?

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    10. Re:Offer Them a Backup Plan, Not a Single Media by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      DVDisaster'd dvds are better than duplicate dvds. If you have part of the original, and enough recovery data, you can reconstruct the original.

      With mirrored copies, if the original gets damage, the mirror better not have damage in the same area. With recovery files, you only need an amount of recovery data equal to the missing data. You can lose half the original disk and as long as you can find half-a-disk worth of recovery files *anywhere* on the recovery disk, you're golden.

      Frankly, I'm extremely disappointed that the DVD and CD specs were finalized with fixed amounts of ECC. With write-once media, there's no reason (other than up-front cpu time) why a disk with less than the max amount of data shouldn't have the remaining capacity filled up with ECC spread throughout the disk.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    11. Re:Offer Them a Backup Plan, Not a Single Media by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "...hopefully your kids will continue with it to persist your life's work." -- Ah, reproduction -- the most old-fashioned data preservation scheme there is. It works for entire civilizations, more or less.

  8. A toothpick and an android head... by HouseOfMisterE · · Score: 3, Funny

    Hey, it worked for Jean Luc Picard when he was trapped in the 19th Century!

    1. Re:A toothpick and an android head... by momerath2003 · · Score: 1

      It was an iron filing, you insensitive clod.

      --
      I had but a simple dream, to destroy all humans.
    2. Re:A toothpick and an android head... by Vrtigo1 · · Score: 1

      "How'd that get in there?"

  9. A link by geekoid · · Score: 2, Insightful

    to a site on the internet?

    Setting aside how lame this is, the Museum already has a program for maintaining acquired works. Part of that maintenance could just be backing up the works.
    This way it's always on a recent medium.

    The point of a museum is to have a place to share unique works with the public.

    Now digital work can be downloaded and as such doesn't really need a museum.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:A link by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      Now digital work can be downloaded and as such doesn't really need a museum.

      Not a fan of curators, are you?

    2. Re:A link by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I wonder what Archive.org uses for it's digital copy storage. Setting up a web site gets you a free backup on their systems.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  10. Re:Proven track record by snowgirl · · Score: 1

    Go for the storage solution with a proven track record: clay tablets!

    You laugh... but honestly, I think a barebones ROM chip actually would work pretty reasonably well for what he's trying to do.

    Nothing stores ones and zeros better than raw conductors.

    --
    WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
  11. WORM Flash by Hatta · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Apparently Sandisk has some Write Once SD cards. Dunno about pricing and availability though.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    1. Re:WORM Flash by Megane · · Score: 1

      "Write once" only means it can't be re-written. That doesn't mean that it will never degrade. For instance, PROM memory chips, programmed by burning tiny fuses on the chip, can over time "un-burn" some of their fuses. (I think this is from the old "tin whisker" problem.)

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    2. Re:WORM Flash by Hatta · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you checked the link, you'll see that Sandisk advertises them as good for 100 years. Of course, they haven't been around for 100 years yet, so who knows what the longevity actually is.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  12. Simple by truthsearch · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Chisel binary onto stone slabs. 4000 years from now it'll be displayed in a history museum.

    1. Re:Simple by prograde · · Score: 1

      I have to say, I don't really get this "new art" thing.

    2. Re:Simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      exactly, i was going to post a similar topic,,,

      i do think there is a market for Write Once upon stone,,micro/nano machines may help....this imho is a huge digital dilemma, for now i tell everyone,,,that takes a digital photo
      if you like it, print it out, being able to archive semi easily upon stone would be great.

    3. Re:Simple by Facegarden · · Score: 1

      Chisel binary onto stone slabs. 4000 years from now it'll be displayed in a history museum.

      Come on now, this is Slashdot! Laser etch a slab of titanium man!

      Maybe even use a product like Cermark, which bonds to metal and turns black, when exposed to a laser. Apparently the military uses it, it's supposed to be good stuff!
      -Taylor

      --
      Worldwide Military budgets: $2100 billion. Worldwide Space Exploration budgets: $38 billion. Really, world? Really?
    4. Re:Simple by mythosaz · · Score: 1

      He's going to have to etch his barcodes into cut diamonds. Those are going to outlast pretty much everything.

  13. Print it. by localman57 · · Score: 1

    Make a high-res print out on a big sheet of paper. Museums are pretty good at handling those...

    1. Re:Print it. by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The Library of Congress has an archive of early films printed frame by frame onto paper, because at the time of deposition, still photographs were copyrightable while motion pictures were not.

  14. Old school solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    It may sound silly but going back to safety film, 35mm or better, is one of the most stable ways to go and the odds are strong that they'll still be able to transfer it to other mediums in a 100 years or more. I know a number of museums with major film and clip collections. They just need to be stored in climate controlled conditions. Modern unscreened films should last a 100 years or more. It's temperature and light exposure that is going to tend to degrade the film stock.

  15. Linus Torvalds' solution by Martin.Ward · · Score: 1

    "Only wimps use tape backup: _real_ men just upload their important stuff on ftp, and let the rest of the world mirror it ;)" - Linus Torvalds

  16. The problem of single-location is more important. by bezenek · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The problem of having the data in a single location is probably more of an issue than the type of media because of fire or other physical damage rather than the issue of lifetime.

    If you decide to back up the data on writable DVD, you have a lifetime of 2-10 years. With flash, (e.g., a thumb drive,) the general advertised time is 10 years. Even if there is a medium which guarantees a longer period, you still have the problem of multiple secure sites.

    You can solve both problems at once by going with an on-line data warehouse who will guarantee data integrity and mirrors data to multiple locations. This leaves the issue of media life to them, and solves the multiple-location issue.

    Cheers!

    -Todd

    --
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico.
  17. all art decays by fermion · · Score: 1
    I like to read about the protection and restoration of art. It seems that all art decays, and no matter what one does to it, at some point it will require a restoration. For instance, I have read the varnish put over painting is made to come off easily and leave the painting in tact for restoration. A painting left in the basement, never touch, will eventually decay to nothing.

    So it with digital media. The nice thing with digital media are the copies are exact, with no generational loss. Therefore my suggestion would be a working copy and a backup. Backups are rotated to insure reliability. Working copies are kept until a new copy is made from a backup, in the same way we do in commercial environments.

    There is no media that will last 100 years unchanged, and few media that will last 20 without care. Just because it is digital does not change the laws of thermodynamics.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    1. Re:all art decays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no media that will last 100 years unchanged, and few media that will last 20 without care. Just because it is digital does not change the laws of thermodynamics.

      I collect incunabula. The youngest in my collection is 500 years old. So for non-digital media your comment is wrong.

      inb4 too old

    2. Re:all art decays by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

      has the page yellowed, the ink faded? Are there any tears, stains, or holes? As anything been added to the page?

      If so your media has changed.

    3. Re:all art decays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My usb stick has lost the cap and starts to yellow. The data on it is fine. What is your point?

    4. Re:all art decays by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      That you're a retard.

    5. Re:all art decays by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

      You don't have to be a collector to know that the value in a piece of incunabula is dependent on factors other than the number of characters that can be accurately transcribed.

  18. Media Arts Preservation resources by DoctorWho · · Score: 5, Informative
    You might want to take a look at some of the Museum initiatives working on digital / media arts preservation. Here's a few...

    "The Variable Media Network proposes an unconventional new preservation strategy that has emerged from the Guggenheim's efforts to preserve its world-renowned collection of conceptual, minimalist and video art and that is supported by the Daniel Langlois Foundation for Art, Science, and Technology. The aim of this affiliation is to help build a network of organizations that will develop the tools, methods and standards needed to implement this strategy."
    http://variablemedia.net/

    "Matters in Media Art is a multi-phase project designed to provide guidelines for care of time-based media works of art (e.g., video, film, audio and computer based installations). The project was created in 2003 by a consortium of curators, conservators, registrars and media technical managers from New Art Trust, MoMA, SFMOMA and Tate. The consortium launched its first phase, on loaning time-based media works, in 2004, and its second phase, on acquiring time-based media works, in 2007."
    http://moma.org/explore/collection/conservation/media_art
    http://www.tate.org.uk/research/tateresearch/majorprojects/mediamatters/

    "From March to December 2003, the archive team of V2_Organisation (a center for culture and technology in Rotterdam, the Netherlands) has conducted research on the documentation aspects of the preservation of electronic art activities -- or Capturing Unstable Media --, an approach between archiving and preservation."
    http://capturing.projects.v2.nl/

    "DOCAM's main objective is to develop new methodologies and tools to address the issues of preserving and documenting digital, technological and electronic works of art."
    http://www.docam.ca/en/?cat=17

    "Inside Installations: Preservation and Presentation of Installation Art is a three-year research project (2004-2007) into the care and administration of an art form that is challenging prevailing views of conservation."
    http://www.inside-installations.org/home/index.php

    1. Re:Media Arts Preservation resources by Network+Footsoldier · · Score: 1

      As one of the folks behind the Variable Media Network, you may be interested to know that we are releasing free software tools for preserving digital art under the rubric Forging the Future.

      These include a database for tracking digital assets, a questionnaire for helping artists decide which aspects are most important to preserve about their work, and an XML and Metaserver specification designed to help share information about an artwork across multiple institutions and databases.

  19. Choose a different artistic medium by DirkGently · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Two things.

    I'm probably headed towards flamebait, but I think it's rather presumptuous and egotistical to assume that anyone is going to want to see your work fifty years from now. That's not your decision. As the other posters say, give the buyer one, maybe three, copies of your digital files on a convenient & prolific media like DVD-R and then let them decide if it's really worth preserving for the next century.

    Second, do master ice sculptors require buyers to have refrigerated viewing galleries? If you're concerned about the longevity of your work, pick a less ephemeral medium.

    --

    I keep trying to pick fights, but I can't shake this Excellent karma.

    1. Re:Choose a different artistic medium by eln · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Precisely. The great artworks in history have not been preserved because they were done with things that last a long time...paintings fade, are easily destroyed, and are usually quite flammable. Countless works of art have been destroyed forever over the centuries. The ones that are still around are only still around because people over many generations felt they were important or beautiful enough to go through the trouble of preserving them. Just give your stuff to the museum, and if they feel it's important to preserve it for posterity, they'll find a way. If they don't, it will probably get thrown out anyway no matter how durable the medium is.

  20. The Story Summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    reads suspiciously as someone interested in pirating.

    Yours In Baikonur,
    Philboyd Studge

  21. Re:The problem of single-location is more importan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good idea...if those services (which are still losing money) survive.

    The probability of "offline" (Internet-based) backup storage surviving, say, 100 years is asymptotic to 0%!

    You're not thinking BIG enough!

  22. There are only two choices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Either you make art in the moment, in which case you whisper the feeling of their shapes into a river, or you make art to last, as you seeks, for which you clearly need a dimensionally distributed space-time multiplexor. Everything else is inconsistent.

  23. Bar codes? by JSBiff · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Maybe instead of chiselling 1's and 0's onto the slab, he could use something like bar-code encoding when he chisels. That way, to 'read' the data, all one has to do is fill the depressions with some suitable bright-colored paint or pigmentation, then use a laser to scan it.

    1. Re:Bar codes? by Hadlock · · Score: 1

      Some sort of obsidian? create a barcode? There's a vetran's war memorial in... DC? The surface is polished, but the words are "rough hewn" or sandblasted 0.5-1mm deep, "in" to the rock, giving you a lighter image. The image dissapears when it rains, though. DUnno how long polished rock retains it's polished look.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    2. Re:Bar codes? by JSBiff · · Score: 1

      "DUnno how long polished rock retains it's polished look."

      I suppose that depends upon how the rock is treated/stored. Store it outside in the weather, and I bet it starts to become pretty beat up inside of 100 years (go to any graveyard for good examples). Store it in a nice stone box, in a drive cave or stone temple in the desert or other relatively dry place, and I bet it lasts many thousands of years.

    3. Re:Bar codes? by Hadlock · · Score: 1

      That's true; but the quality of the stone is a major factor too. Concrete wears away in 80 years, marble seems to do ok for 500+ years. How long has that rose granite egyptian obselisk stood outside in st peters square?

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    4. Re:Bar codes? by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      nevermind, even if the polish is gone you can take a peice of paper and a crayon and recover the data fairly easily (in the case of words cut into stone).
      -nB

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
  24. They bought it... by John.P.Jones · · Score: 1

    Give them a CD, let them worry about archiving it since they are the owners. If you aren't happy with this arrangment (you don't trust them to archive it to your satisfaction), then don't sell it to them. Keep it and archive it yourself (suggestions to store multiple copies at seperate locations and periodically copy it to new media and attempt to update it to current versions are good).

    If you sell it you don't own it anymore and they can do whatever they want. If they want to hire you as an archive consultant then handle that transaction separately from the art sale.

  25. Hard Copy by MountainLogic · · Score: 1

    Old Disney animation cells sell for big bucks. What about using archival grade printing, perhaps on an archival plastic media, and make hard copies. These might have the additional, collector's advantage of being able to be broken-up as well as being non-digital and thus harder to reproduce.

  26. Tagged 'digitalartisnotfineart' by spun · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We have trolls in the tags now? How cute. Here's a clue for you, every new art form is not considered fine art by crusty old timers. Then the old timers DIE and times move on and presto! It's fine art. It isn't about the medium in the first place. If I spatter paint on a canvas, it isn't going to be fine art. When Jackson Pollock did it, it was. My 3d models look nice, but they are a craft, not fine art. The guys who designed, oh say, Wall-E? Fine artists by any stretch of the imagination. Get it? It isn't the media, it is the artistic quality that determines whether something is fine art or not.

    Whoever added that tag, the only connection you've got to art are the lead paint chips you ate as a child.

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    1. Re:Tagged 'digitalartisnotfineart' by jittles · · Score: 1

      Whoever added that tag, the only connection you've got to art are the lead paint chips you ate as a child.

      mmmmm lead paint chips :)~

    2. Re:Tagged 'digitalartisnotfineart' by spun · · Score: 2, Funny

      Whoever added that tag, the only connection you've got to art are the lead paint chips you ate as a child.

      mmmmm lead paint chips :)~

      Have you tried them with library paste sauce and a side of crayons? Delicious!

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    3. Re:Tagged 'digitalartisnotfineart' by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 2, Insightful

      (Fine) Art is anything you can get away with. - Andy Warhol

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    4. Re:Tagged 'digitalartisnotfineart' by spun · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Fuck off, troll. In all the years you've been here, you've added nothing of value to Slashdot. Nobody pays you any attention, your trolling is infantile, and your opinions are merely fetid spurts of verbal diarrhea. You are either deliberately misinterpreting what I'm saying, or you've gone full retard and don't know how to get back. Just because you have an obese body, a tiny dick, and like to fuck a fleshlight with a picture of Jar-Jar Binks taped to it does not make you a geek. You don't get to converse with the geeks at the big boy table, you get to hang out with the other helmet headed window licking dorks on the short fucking bus, capiche?

      I'm not a pompous fuck for saying I'm better than you, hell, I've shat things better than you.

      Now that that's out of the way, let me clarify for anyone stupid enough to believe sexconker's creative interpretation of my thoughts. I don't think the artist makes a god damn difference. Fine art is anything that a large enough group of people consider emotionally meaningful for a long enough period of time. Period. Artist makes no difference, medium makes no difference, skill makes no difference, the only measure of fine art is the total amount of emotional impact it delivers.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    5. Re:Tagged 'digitalartisnotfineart' by FlyingBishop · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure the trolls have been hitting the tags since we started tagging.

    6. Re:Tagged 'digitalartisnotfineart' by c.waffle · · Score: 0

      trollers be trollin'

    7. Re:Tagged 'digitalartisnotfineart' by spun · · Score: 1

      Says the man modded flamebait, who insists on repeating debunked nonsense. I'm not saying what is and isn't art, ass crab, I'm saying the exact opposite. Just because something is digital, does not mean it isn't fine art. Damn, you are fucking dim witted. Does your mommy help you press the right letters on the picture box?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    8. Re:Tagged 'digitalartisnotfineart' by sexconker · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      You're the troll.
      Telling people what is and what isn't art.

      You got told.
      Deal with it.
         

    9. Re:Tagged 'digitalartisnotfineart' by theGhostPony · · Score: 1

      That [art] quote is actually Marshall McLuhan's.

      Signed,
      a digital tinkerer who's not an artist.

      --
      /. Dissent will not be tolerated. Think like us or perish.
    10. Re:Tagged 'digitalartisnotfineart' by spun · · Score: 1

      Fucking sad. It's fucking Troll Tuesday and you are giving trolling a bad name. There's more to it than repeating the same lame-ass comeback that didn't work the first time. Trolling is not a sport for douchebag losers, it requires wit, humor, and psychological insight. None of which you appear to posses in measurable quantities. See how I did that? I could have said, 'none of which you have,' but, like your pathetic attempts at trolling, that would have sounded lame, instead of driving home the point that I am far more educated and erudite than you.

      I suppose I could teach you, but I don't have the patience for spastic, incompetent, socially backwards losers anymore. Go back to 4chan with the other friendless dorks, m'kay? This here's a place for people who don't have to wear helmets with chin straps and drool cups.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    11. Re:Tagged 'digitalartisnotfineart' by sexconker · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      You're the troll?
      Telling people what is and what isn't art?

      You got told?
      Deal with it?

    12. Re:Tagged 'digitalartisnotfineart' by spun · · Score: 1

      Show's over, kid. Get your hand out of your pants and hit the road.

      Don't take it personally, or heck, take the fact that I even recognize your handle as a compliment, sexconker.

      Hehe, sexconker.

      I be trollin', y'all be hatin'.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    13. Re:Tagged 'digitalartisnotfineart' by sexconker · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Troll the you're?
      Art isn't what and is what people telling.

      Told got you!
      It with deal.

  27. This isn't your problem. by Vrtigo1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    While I agree with others that an online mirror at a remote location or copying the data to whatever the current preferred medium is every 3-5 years are good ideas, I think you're reading too much into this. Once you've delivered the information to them, it's their job to safeguard it. Any institution that already has digital media in their collection probably already has an existing plan in place to ensure the safety of that data. I think a better approach would be to choose a good, economical archival-grade medium to deliver the information and let them decide how they want to handle it from there. If you're really worried about it, provide recommendations, but don't force a particular solution on them.

    1. Re:This isn't your problem. by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      (economical) != (archival-grade)

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
  28. Half life by kcdoodle · · Score: 1

    Data on a DVD/CD doesn't all crap out at once. In normal usage, scratches cause some data loss. However for long term storage significant loss would happen when the plastic reflective surface itself degrades. Still, when properly stored, a DVD/CD should last 30 years. To increase the odds of your data lasting, and to spend the least amount of cash, simply make multiple copies of your most precious data. That way, hopefully, each DVD/CD will retain SOME data and it can all be pieced back together from the multiple copies. The more precious the data, the more copies you should make. I think 5 copies stored in a climate controlled safe should last at least 100 years, if not, longer.

    --

    - I live the greatest adventure anyone could possibly desire. - Tosk the Hunted
    1. Re:Half life by infalliable · · Score: 1

      Physically storing the data isn't really the biggest problem. Magnetic Tapes are good for a very long time, as are other magnetic storage options. The issue is that the tape formats tend to not last that long. What happens when you make the tape in the format of the day, in the "best" codec of the day, and that becomes obsolete within 10 years? 50 years down the road, nobody will be able to read it since the machines to do so will not exist.

      The only way to do it would be to constantly monitor the data and keep the format up to date, backed up, etc. If you're not proactive, you can't garauntee long term storage. For museums, this tends to not happen. They put stuff in storage, and forget about it. They can have hundreds of thousands of items in their collections, so they don't have the resources to adequately monitor things. They do a pretty good job, but it is not uncommon for you to see a story about something valuable "found" in a museum vault.

    2. Re:Half life by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Codec? Any compression implies decompression and recompression. No, you want uncompressed original source material.

    3. Re:Half life by infalliable · · Score: 1

      Ok, so you don't use a "codec" but you do need to know how the 0s and 1s make a picture/file/whatever. You DO have to decode it.

    4. Re:Half life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However, codec is short for (en)coder/decoder and means any kind of externalized encoding of information. It does not necessarily imply compression and particularly does not imply whether it is exact or lossy. Adding error correction codes would be a form of codec that you very much might want in archival applications.

      It is also a close cousin to modem, short for modulator/demodulator which similarly expresses an externalized representation of information. While codecs are often considered digital-to-digital and modems digital-to-analogue, you can also have analogue-to-analogue codecs or modems, and some might argue that you can have digital-to-analogue codecs as well.

      A combination of well-chosen codecs and modems is essential for this archival problem. (A hint: external storage devices like tape decks, optical drives, or magnetic hard drives all implement a kind of modem in their read/write systems.)

  29. No single physical solution. by Lordplatypus · · Score: 1

    I personally do not believe that there is any single physical solution that will guarantee that your data will last. Even if the was some perfect medium, external forces would have the potential to destroy it. You can reduce the odds of this loss by mitigating risk by using multiple and possibly different formats.

    The real answer though would be an active service. A multi-sited, data storage service that actively protects your data is the only real way of making sure your data lasts. There are many professional services out there that will host your data, but finding one that your confident will last the next hundred years is going to be near impossible.

    I did a quick search of the Internet and did not find any projects that allow artists to store their data for these purposes. Maybe this is an opportunity to create something more than art. =)

    --
    Diplomacy is the art of saying, 'Nice doggie!' till you can find a rock.-- Wynn Catlin
  30. A ttriedd and true method by McIanAvelli · · Score: 1

    Punch Cards

  31. Why God Why by Verdatum · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is like the 20th Ask Slashdot bitching about the nonpermanence of DVDs and requesting an alternative. If slashdot hasn't answered the question before, it isn't going to answer it now.

  32. Simple answer by infalliable · · Score: 1

    The simple answer is there is no archival way of storing it. While the digital media may last for ages, the readers probably won't. This is the biggest issue with digital media.

    Just look at things like the (remaining) Apollo tapes. The electronic media that exists works fine, but the machines to read them do not.

    1. Re:Simple answer by loftwyr · · Score: 1

      And in 100 years, any format that the artwork is in will be obsolete and lost. The only thing that might work is a self contained machine that is fixable using simple tools that includes not only the digital art but the software necessary to view the art. If the hardware can't be fixed using simple tools, it will eventually die leaving a useless paperweight that was once worth a lot of money.

    2. Re:Simple answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just look at things like the (remaining) Apollo tapes. The electronic media that exists works fine, but the machines to read them do not.

      Bad example. There were only ever a handful of Apollo tapes or machines to read them in the first place. There are hundreds of millions (?possibly billions) of DVD readers and DVDs. So there is a massive incentive to keep methods of reading them alive for a very long time. And blu-ray drives can read DVDs and CDs going right back to the birth of the CD. The lifetime of the particular disc/s (even if archival grade and stored perfectly) is much more likely to be a limiting factor than the availability of some sort of drive to read them.

  33. Aw geeze - again!? by Animaether · · Score: 4, Informative

    Honestly, Slashdot editors, can we put a moritarium on these "whrrr what medium do I choose to back my stuff up on so that it will still be readable N year from now???" stories?
    We just HAD one of these less than two weeks ago!
    http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/09/29/1646251

    The top comment there?

    Holy crap we're approaching the need for an Ask Slashdot FAQ. I feel old.

    - Zlurg; http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1371703&cid=29449669

    Slashdot askers: could you please, please, just browse back a month or two to see this discussion dealt with over, and over, and over?

    No. Your mentioning that this is for a *museum* doesn't change anything - all of those discussions are from people who want to achieve immortality through archived proof that they once lived and want their great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandchildren to see the bodyshots they took off of their great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandmother.
    No. Your mentioning that this doesn't have to be cheap doesn't change anything either - all of those discussions will have replies varying in cost, right on up to suggesting you etch the data into a platinum carrier.

    I'll summarize the replies from all of those discussions for you here.. by the time I'm done, they'll probably all appear as replies in -this- 'story' again as well.

    A. Back up to any media, make duplicates, refresh these duplicates onto whatever media is now-current and reliable enough that it doesn't die the very next morning, keep the old ones around. This ensures that you always have overlapping technologies so that you -can- transfer the data just fine, and that the data will live on until somebody gets sick and tired of doing this. Note that the burden with this falls onto the museum - in both time and cost - but thankfully they can then do so for entire collections, and not just your stuff.

    B. Drop it on a filesharing network, invoke the "once it's on the internet" claim.. although good luck finding, say, Fearless (1993 movie, not the Jet Li thing) which -was- easily found at least 5 years ago (I should know, I grabbed it to check out the plane crash; didn't care for the rest of the movie). So, scratch that.

    C. If graphics: turn them into archival quality negatives. If audio: slap 'm on a phonographic record. Yes, they will degrade, but they will degrade 'gracefully' and even if some future generation has no idea what the heck to do with an SD card, figuring out negatives (or positives if you will) and records is rather simple.

    1. Re:Aw geeze - again!? by Verdatum · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Agreed. Tagged article with "stopaskingthis".

    2. Re:Aw geeze - again!? by EvanED · · Score: 1

      I also like the sentence "No other artist or institution I know of have come up with any real solution to this issue yet, so I thought Slashdot readers may have an idea."

    3. Re:Aw geeze - again!? by LoneHighway · · Score: 1

      C. If graphics: turn them into archival quality negatives. If audio: slap 'm on a phonographic record. Yes, they will degrade, but they will degrade 'gracefully' and even if some future generation has no idea what the heck to do with an SD card, figuring out negatives (or positives if you will) and records is rather simple.

      Yes, there is something comforting in knowing that in case of total holocaust, if you found a vinyl LP and could round up a cactus thorn, sewing needle, or similar, and something to rotate it, you could at least find out what it was about. It wouldn't be great, but you could recover a hint of the original.

    4. Re:Aw geeze - again!? by Deadplant · · Score: 1

      Why does your summary not include the best/correct long-term storage method? Printed on paper.

    5. Re:Aw geeze - again!? by Animaether · · Score: 1

      For the same reason that giant archives of newspaper articles are not available in paper form, but rather microfilm.

      That said - yes, good quality paper with good quality inks (not some cheapo inkjet thing, but proper ink like they used centuries ago) works well, too. I honestly wouldn't know about toner - I suspect that should hold quite well, too, but text reproduction is quite a bit outside of my field. /nokarma

    6. Re:Aw geeze - again!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your mentioning that this is for a *museum* doesn't change anything

      Actually I think it does, but then I'm a computer nerd who spends more time with artist than computer people. I think this comment tries to address your point. Recently I've started hanging out with Burners and I'm starting to love their take on art. Build a great piece of art, enjoy it with a bunch of people, then burn it. However, it doesn't mean I don't appreciate the world of fine art, where you're expected to use materials that will easily last 500 years.

    7. Re:Aw geeze - again!? by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      Which of course is wrong:
      The Long Now has a solution.
      they are ~$20K a pop I think.

      Basically a solid relatively inert metal (nickel) is laser etched to hold the data then cast in a glass sphere to provide magnification.

      The machine readable version I imagine would be a nickel disk etched with pits and lands then CVD'd with titanium nitride or other suitable HardShit(tm) to further protect it. If done right this disk could possibly be playable in a CD-Rom reader, which should be around in one form or another for a long time (I can still find grammaphones, wire recorders, 8 tracks, VHS machines, etc. because they were popular).
      -nB

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    8. Re:Aw geeze - again!? by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      The 3D description file could probably be converted to XML (if it isn't already) and printed to a manageable number of paper pages or microfiche slides.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  34. Eternal vigilance by spire3661 · · Score: 1

    is the price you pay for digital storage. As of now there is no 'archival grade' way of digitally storing something. If you are storing digital data, you have to go through the rigmarole that we all do. Redundant backups, offsite storage, periodic and consistent data integrity checks and disaster recovery testing.

    --
    Good-bye
    1. Re:Eternal vigilance by Eivind · · Score: 1

      True, but on the other hand, advantages in networking and storage-mediums mean that keeping around a few copies of old data becomes more and more trivial.

      I have a lot of data that once was stored on CD-roms, around 100 of them, 3 copies each, it was a major hassle to redo one of the copies after 3 years.

      After 6 years, DVDs where around, so stopped using 3*100 CD-roms, but instead used 3*10 DVDs, a major improvement.

      After 9 years, 50GB was small enough that it fit easily on a small fraction of a HD, so I switched to having one copy online on my desktop-machine, and one copy on an external-HD that I stored offsite.

      Now ? 50GB is a trivial amount of data, it takes up 3% of a single HD, and the network has evolved to the point where I can do the offsite-copy to a online file-storage-service available at nominal cost.

      What used to be a major hassle maintaining, because the data was so large it needed several hundred physical discs, is now a trivial amount of data, if I still wanted to archive it on optical discs, it would fit on a single one (Isn't blueray 50GB ? Something of that order anyway)

  35. Re:Yes. by SwordsmanLuke · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Parent is joking, but honestly, the internet is the single best system of data archival we've ever implemented. It's distributed and automatically updates useful data (for some value of "useful") to the latest formats. I'd be willing to bet that in twenty years we'll still be able to find digital versions of, say, The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy in whatever the leading formats of the time will be. Of course, they'll probably be pirated, but the point stands.

    The internet is for archiving.

    --
    Any plan which depends on a fundamental change in human behavior is doomed from the start.
  36. A problem best solved by the institutions? by AlphaBit · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Museums are going to have to deal with this more and more. It doesn't seem feasible to have to support each artists solution to archiving. They don't make painters provide a climate controlled storage environment to ensure the longevity of a painting.
    Fortunately, the nature of digital art makes a solution easy if the museums cooperate. They could simply backup each others archives. This way a copy of any piece of digital art is stored at every major museum in the world. Loss of data would be a sign that much worse things were happening in the world.
    Of course, encryption would probably be used to protect exclusive showing rights. Oh well.

  37. micro etch the ones and zeros by zerosomething · · Score: 1

    Just like the Rosetta project. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_Project

    --
    It all starts at 0
  38. Um....tape??? by lxt · · Score: 4, Informative

    The fact that you haven't thought of tape makes me question how well you know the industry you're in, or how well-connected you actually are. Why can't you put your video files onto DigiBeta or similar? Tape stores well, and with a format like DigiBeta you're pretty much guaranteed compatability for at least 50 years+ (since there's so much TV back catalogue stored on tape, and there will always be a need by broadcasters to get to that content). I don't want to come off as rude, but it just sound like you don't really know much about video production and archival, despite the fact you've chosen to produce video installations and artwork. You're not the first person in the world to do this kind of thing - there are established proceedures for dealing with and archiving video installation work. This still doesn't entirely solve your problem of storing your raw data, but since you specifically talk about .mov files I'm perplexed that you haven't already thought of tape. I suspect you're going to get a lot of answers here that are wildly impractical for a gallery or go well beyond your means - but the fact is this: if a museum or gallery is looking to purchase your work, they should already have a curator who knows the medium. If they don't have a curator who can discuss with you the formats he/she would like the work in, the gallery probably needs to rethink what it's doing in the business!

    1. Re:Um....tape??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Not just DigiBeta, but there's also D2, 1" and other archival tape formats that will last and be readable for years. Of course, with all of these you're still in a digital format and need the proper hardware and software to decode. The U.S. Archives has been working for ages to try and find a method to store the millions of photgraphic prints and negatives both for posterity and cataloguing, without success.

      It comes down to this (in my opinion) - any media that will last indefinitely into the future must be tangible. A medium for digital media does not fit in here. The medium is tangible, but the media is not. Therefore, your only solution is to take your video art and have it printed to 35mm (or larger) film. Of course, film also degrades. Modern film, however, should fare far better than some of the Technicolor films of yore.

      In 200 years, if the digital files can't be read, someone can shine a light through the frames and figure out what's going on there. It may be degraded in quality, they may play it back at the wrong frame rate, but something will be there.

    2. Re:Um....tape??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it just sound like you don't really know much about video production and archival

      Did the Ask Slashdot category tip you off to that?

      I'd rather see this guy be honest about it and he was. He didn't act like he knew about anything outside of what worked well for him. Or are you suggesting that every serious artist knows the ins and outs about their tools that they use let alone the science behind it? I would find that very hard to believe.

    3. Re:Um....tape??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This only lasts 30 years and museums don't really seem to like it from my experience.

  39. It's simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    So I want to ask the Slashdot readers, what can I give to the museum when they acquire my digital work for their collection so that it can last and be seen long after I am dead?

    1. Give them a bunch of DVDs
    2. Die immediately
    1. Re:It's simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      1. Give them a bunch of DVDs
      2. Die immediately
      3. ????
      4. Profit!

      (Why do I have a feeling the missing step involves L. Ron Hubbard?)

    2. Re:It's simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +10 FUNNY

  40. IMO most non-properity video archive is... by vertinox · · Score: 1

    Frame by frame image captures into JPEG (or TGA if you aren't hurting for storage) and then save the audio track in raw wav file.

    At least I think that will be the most compatible in 100 years.

    --
    "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
    -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
  41. Steel plates by Deth_Master · · Score: 1

    Etch the 1s and 0s into a steel plate. Then seal it in one of those food vacuum seal bags. Then put that bag in another bag.

    That should do it. It'll last forever, and can be manually recovered easily.

    Side note:
    This was on the bottom of the page: " There's nothing like a girl with a plunging neckline to keep a man on his toes. "

    --
    find ~your -name '*base* | xargs chown :us
  42. Digital Intermediate/Digital Master by endikos · · Score: 1

    Have a look at the Digital Intermediate process. To quote the wikipedia article regarding the process: "The digital master, created during the Digital Intermediate process, is recorded to very stable yellow-cyan-magenta (YCM) separations on black-and-white film with an expected 100-year or longer life." So essentially you are creating a very high resolution analog copy of your digital master. This way, if the digital media craps out, you have a long-life analog way of recreating it. This is a way some Hollywood studios are approaching the problem.

  43. use archival-grade DVD media by fljmayer · · Score: 1

    There are special DVD media to be had that are meant for archiving, and they do seem to last quite bit longer than normal media. I don't remember the brand name, but I recall that the Taiyo Yuden media have about the same durability. Taiyo Yuden media are not available in stores, but places like newegg.com sell them.

  44. duh by inerlogic · · Score: 1

    digital -> film transfer

    35mm or 16mm film will last at least two hundred years in a controlled environment....
    and museums already know how to handle film media....

  45. Tape by Pf0tzenpfritz · · Score: 1

    For serious archiving there's just one reliable option: magnetic tape. A state-of-the art device will store some hundered Gigs per medium and cost up to about 1.000 â/$ used ones are available in all price ranges. You will probably need to extract samples from your long time archives for your customers as there are different standards of tape drives, if you're not only going to sell DVD or blue ray media and leave the archiving problem to them. Any institution collecting digital arts will have to find a way to cope with long-time storage anyway. The arguments for magnetic tape are obvious: - there are so many important data on standard tape (QIC/DDS) that these devices will definitely be available for the next few decades - the life time of magnetic tapes is usually 25 years - tape drives are usually connected via SCSI or USB, both standards are not likely to be abandonded in the way standards for "customer grade" hardware are and you'll always get external adapters for them - if you stick to one of the newer and more popular tape systems, museums or arts collections that are maintaining their own archives are likely to compatible - magnetic tapes are quite reliable. Optical media are not

    --
    Oh, the beautiful gloss of greality!
  46. Paperback! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Use paperback. It allows you to print out the data on standard paper (which any museum or library will be very familiar with archiving safely.)

    In the event that something happens to their original, the paper can be scanned back in with any TWAIN interface supporting scanner.

    It's even released under the GPL.

    http://www.ollydbg.de/Paperbak/

  47. You just have to use the right DVDs. by Shag · · Score: 1

    Your local arts and crafts store should have acid-free DVDs specifically for things like this (and storing digital scrapbooks of that trip to Arizona with the grandkids.)

    --
    Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
    1. Re:You just have to use the right DVDs. by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      My local store http://www.hobbycraft.co.uk/ doesn't have anything remotely like this.

  48. Or just by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    use real archival media like the etched in stone stuff at http://www.millenniata.com

  49. All about show by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well I fail to see how this is your problem really but at a certain point art sales is about presentation, so:

    1) Get a pair of usb hard drives or some kind of solid state devices, depending on storage requirements.
    2) Get a a pair of small, attractive fireproof cases and cut out some foam inserts for your storage.
    3) Profit!

    -sean

  50. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  51. dedicated viewer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The only way to remove the digital artwork from the digital format cycle would be to build a dedicated viewer. a simple computer with enough storage for the artwork hard wired to a screen or projector. that way you could control the viewing experience as well. And you would be creating a physical item for the museum to care for and maintain, a process that they are used to and good at. An interesting project would be to develop a standard box that could be used by different artists, perhaps with a tab that is snapped off after the artwork is loaded, locking the artwork just like the little tab on a VHS or audio tape. of course you still rely on the museum for power, but i think it is fair to expect them to find an adaptor to plug in the artwork.

  52. Re:The problem of single-location is more importan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Archive.org is free and has multiple location backup. Of course, you have to be happy with them sharing it with the world indefinitely -but that just provides more backup.

  53. I don't like the premise by JerryLove · · Score: 1

    Digital information isn't books and pictures, and there's no reason it should be stored like it is.

    Rather than files full of "archive media", which incurs regular conversion charges and risks both media degridation and "missing one" in the conversion resulting in it being unreadable: I recommend institutions work with live storage.

    Setup a SAN, keep the data there, keep a live replica at another location. Backup the SAN on schedule.

    As failures of storage media occur, they are detected (because the system is live, not dead stored disks) and can be replaced. Migration becomes "two SANs" not "thousands of tapes, flash drives, DVDs, and BlueRays".

    Other than that: I can only suggest "give them three identical disks", so that partial failures of a disk can be recovered by comparing it to the other disks.

  54. Continuous CRC Check by Havokmon · · Score: 1

    Load it into the buffer and do a continuous CRC check until someone coms around to rematerialize it.

    --
    "I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
    1. Re:Continuous CRC Check by lcs-150 · · Score: 1

      Scotty?

    2. Re:Continuous CRC Check by Havokmon · · Score: 1

      Aye Laddie, it's quaint - only 50% successful.

      --
      "I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
  55. Re:REPLY TO SENDER !! by bothemeson · · Score: 0

    Someone, please, mod this up!

  56. First thing: license it appropriately by Mathinker · · Score: 1

    If you make sure that you have licensed the work properly to the museum, then, as previous posters have observed, you can leave it in their hands as to how they will preserve your digital artwork for posterity.

    If you mess up the licensing, they could easily be stuck in a situation where they aren't sure if it is legal for them to do the required copying and format transformations.

    Someone like Creative Commons should think about this problem. Unfortunately, everyone has their own spin on how this should be accomplished. I suppose the CC guys would just say, use a CC license, for example, when this artist seems to be more interested in giving a particular organization (and no one else) the right to preserve his works until they enter the public domain. AFAIK, no one has invented an "archival" or "preservation" license like this artist needs.

  57. put it onto p2p by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    it will live forever in multiple copies all over the internet

    the digitalartisnotfineart tag is of course an ignorant troll, but digital art IS different from other forms of art in that it can effortlessly be made into 1 billion copies, with no difference between any copy. of course this is also true of music and books, etc., but enjoying them in analog formats is still a possibility, and some might argue about aesthetic superiority in that difference (i wouldn't though)

    of course immortality via internet puts a crimp in your thinking about people buying and selling your digital art, but you are excused for making this error, as the entire world is only beginning to grapple with the economics of effortless infinite digital works and its implications on the economics of art

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  58. look into digital headstones-like from cemetaries by way2trivial · · Score: 1

    they exist- they play video of dead people right over the grave...

    they've had the same problem, and been around a while....

    --
    every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
  59. Get them pressed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If money is no issue, you could get some professionally pressed with a company like Disc Makers. Of course I'm not sure how long that would last either, but it's got to be a decent amount longer than recordable dye-based solutions...

  60. Give them a link to a torrent by debrain · · Score: 1

    ... It'll be seeded for decades.

  61. It's 10000 years enough for you? by 12357bd · · Score: 1

    Contact the Rosetta foundation, and use his physical format to give your data a lifespan of ten millenia.

    --
    What's in a sig?
  62. Printing is tough too, but definitely doable. by arete · · Score: 1

    Archival quality printing is also not cheap, but at least it's a fairly solved problem.

    Personally I don't think you can do much better than printing it for an option that doesn't involve frequent migration - density isn't great, but I'm confident there'll still be optical scan devices at least for historical works, so if you print out all your bits in an OCR-friendly font, it won't be TOO much work for someone else to read them (if they really want to!) You should also include in the same format the source code for the decoder - even if that's not directly compilable in the future, it'll be a relatively clear indicator of how to do it, to the limits of what's possible.

    You could probably do even better by e.g. punching holes into gold sheets a la The Baroque Cycle. Or stone tablets, etc. But those are all questions of "what's the most resilient format for PRINTED text" which is a topic at least we have a bunch of data on.

    --
    Looking for freelance Actionscript (Flash/Flex) or ColdFusion work and/or freelance developers. Email me, put Slashdot
  63. Well by JustOK · · Score: 1

    There will probably always be new media, so just set up the program to review and take action every few years as warranted.

    --
    rewriting history since 2109
  64. Archive your work in glass, stone or fired clay ta by Nadaka · · Score: 1

    Archive your work in glass, stone or fired clay tablets. Its the only thing that even somewhat reliably lasts for thousands of years. If you can get a data density of 1 byte / cm^3 a 4 gig data file will only take up a block of stacked tablets a little over 16 meters cubed. I am pretty sure you could get slightly better data density though.

  65. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  66. Have them professionally pressed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You could have DVDs actually pressed instead of using a home burned dye-based DVD. This is of course if money is a non-issue, which seems to be the case.

  67. Re:The problem of single-location is more importan by J4 · · Score: 1

    Yeah, but shit still happens. You need to use _multiple_ storage clouds :)

  68. Whatever by wsanders · · Score: 1

    10,000 years from now no one is going to care about your cat and explosion videos.

    They're going to be trying to figure what caused the great famine-flood-nuclear-hurricane-iceage of 2075 AD that suddenly caused the human population to disappear and be replaced by a race of extraterrestrial manbearpigs.

    --
    Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
    1. Re:Whatever by zerosomething · · Score: 1

      What! no one cares about some obscure digital artwork! Please Please tell me it isn't true!

      --
      It all starts at 0
  69. There is recent research on this by Acius · · Score: 1

    Take a look at http://www.millenniata.com/ -- their tagline is "Write once, read forever." It's a group out of BYU, which is tied to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who have the largest collection of genealogical records in the world. They've been storing everything on microfiche in a massive vault, and would really like to switch to digital media but for the archival problems you mention. Millenniata grew out of research into making stable DVDs--they guess that their DVDs are stable enough to last 1000+ years (the way I've heard it, they don't know of any particular process that would cause them to decay, but you never know).

    --
    Acius the unfamous
  70. Re:The problem of single-location is more importan by LoneHighway · · Score: 1

    You can solve both problems at once by going with an on-line data warehouse who will guarantee data integrity and mirrors data to multiple locations. This leaves the issue of media life to them, and solves the multiple-location issue.

    If were talking serious archiving here, the method mentioned above would have to account for cumulative data errors in all that moving around in the cloud with backups, restores, etc. As in the example, you rip a CD, burn a new CD from that rip, rinse, repeat X times and then do a bit for bit comparison of the first and last CD, they won't match.

  71. Print it out. by lcs-150 · · Score: 1

    I know printing it out in binary format has already been mentioned, but there is actually a tool for this. If you use high quality paper, it might last for centuries.

    Here's the (free) software: http://ronja.twibright.com:8080/optar/

  72. This Topic by techsoldaten · · Score: 4, Funny

    This topic comes up every couple years or so. There is a good thread about archival media that is still surprisingly relevant today. My original response to the question is available here. "For my clients, I always suggest the use of stone and / or clay tablets for all mission critical data archive projects, regardless of size or scope. Bablyonian and Greek models of data retention from as far back as 4,500 years ago are (in many cases) superior to the models we commonly use today, with much of the physical media having survived electrical storms, tornadoes, floods, fires, and wars on every scale imaginable with a data corruption rate of zero and without the benefit of a climate controlled room, dedicated security staff, or even a closet for media storage. Imagine the elegance of a 84'3/4 STROM (Stone Tablet Read Only Memory) machine hooked up to your Slackware Archive server for performing restorations, and the ST Binary Writer you have networked to your backup systems and kept physically over by the quarry... nice! The TCO for slab is far less than that of tape archives, considering you can store the media in a pile of mud and hose it down when you are ready for a restoration." M

  73. New archival DVD technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I read a news article recently about a new type of DVD (and an accompanying writer), which is readable in regular drives, which carves the data into non-organic (i.e. not plastic) layers. It's supposed to greatly increase shelf life. Here's a link: http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/article_b25c9a30-7242-11de-9feb-001cc4c03286.html. But I agree, saving the data is only half the battle - keeping the data in a readable format (i.e. a dynamic archiving approach) is the other half.

  74. Let it expire by bugs2squash · · Score: 1

    How about just letting it be known that there is only a finite amount of time for people to enjoy it in its original form. The things future art lovers think worth saving will be passed on generation to generation as legend and as such will change in each retelling, giving them a life of their own.

    --
    Nullius in verba
  75. I can imagine "C is for cockroach" by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 1

    ... sung to the tune of the Cookie Monster singing "C is for cookie". As a side note, I'm sure the Cookie Monster would feel ill if he read this.

    --
    I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    1. Re:I can imagine "C is for cockroach" by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

      As I distinctly remember him eating a typewriter once, I doubt much will make him queasy. One the other hand, he's much more likely to befriend than to feast. (This is a kids show, after all.)

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
  76. Put it on the internet. by mmell · · Score: 1

    Once there, it can never disappear.

  77. Question... by irright · · Score: 1

    is flipbook one word or two?

  78. Re:Yes. by gnick · · Score: 3, Informative

    One big flaw with that plan though. If you sell a piece of digital art to a museum for some large sum and then tell them that you also plan to upload a high-resolution copy to a file-sharing site, they may object. Possibly strongly.

    --
    He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
  79. Re:Yes. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    There is something to be said for the redundancy offered by the Internet, but even it isn't as effective as having lots of copies that can last a long time. As L.Sprague deCamp wrote in "Lest Darkness Fall", even the most diligent barbarian can have trouble extirpating the written word when the minimum edition of any publication is 1500 copies.

    So, it remains a Good Idea to have actual hard copies of one sort or another, that can be relied upon to last a long time. So far the champion archival medium is the Magneto Optical disk; its technology is based on a Natural phenomeon that allows geophysicists to determine the orientation of the Earth's magnetic field as it was, many millions of years ago. There simply isn't any better form of data retention widely available at this time.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magneto-optical_drive

  80. Print on paper by gweihir · · Score: 1

    One sided with a good laser-printer on white paper. Best in OCR-B. Should last several centuries if handled carefully. Include interpretation instructions.

    Yes, this sounds strange, but currently the only other viable solution for realy long-term backup is to copy to a new set of redundant media every 5 years or so keep the data on redundant servers with also regular checks and updates.

    One technology that can do this is MOD, but its market share was never good and has dropped dramatically enough that long-term drive availability is very questionable.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  81. Their problem, not yours. by papershark · · Score: 1

    Just about everything in art rots and falls apart. From festering underpants on Traci Emins bed, to newspaper cuttings stuck on Picasso montages. If what you have made is of value, they will be forced to think of a way of slowing that rot.
    You could make art out of rock; it could end up as landfill if it is crap enough.
    You best bet at longevity is quality.

  82. The geek rules don't apply here. by westlake · · Score: 1

    My response would be 'goodluckwiththat'

    The museum can't play fast and loose with the law.

    It can't play fast and loose with its donors - or significant works go elsewhere and donors sue for recovery.

    Time for a reality check:

    When Paramount presented the original Enterprise model from the Star Trek series to the Smithsonian do you think the gift came without restrictions?

     

  83. Archive media by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you could try UDO media from plasmon http://www.plasmon.com/archive_solutions/media.html and as you want it expensive,you could supply a whole system to read it too

  84. Stop being cheap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Stop being cheap and print to 35mm. It will cost $250-400/min from post houses in Seattle, Santa Monica, Boston and New York. Get it properly color corrected.

    While it will cost $6,000 for ten minutes with post, all the museum needs is a nice lightbulb and $350 for a print.

  85. librarian point of view by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    obviously we have already established that the digital format you are putting your art on now is not stable. since the 1970's there has been no real (archival) improvement. basically you need to get it in an analog format. my suggestion is to put your stuff on tape. from there you can have extra backup copies. the only thing you need to control is the environment in which you store them. you are looking at 5-20 years depending on who you read.

    for more information i would go to the society of american archivists at http://www.archivists.org/ - take a look at these books too http://www.archivists.org/catalog/index.asp?keywordID=42

  86. Work with the museum in question by vitaflo · · Score: 1

    Disclaimer, I work for a large contemporary art museum in New Media. We deal with this stuff all of the time and it's something I have an interest in (obviously). The answer for you is there is no tried and true method for archiving digital media. Every arts institution struggles with this, especially when it relates to computational or internet enabled or social media works of art. There are various opinions on what it even *means* to archive some of this stuff and there are varying degrees of opinions out there about all of it.

    That said, several things you can do to help yourself. One, any museum worth their salt and who actually wants to acquire your work will work with you to get it in the format they are most comfortable with. New Media art tends to have varying requirements on what needs to be in place to replicate it, what that means, how it works, etc. A museum putting your work into their collection should work with you to define those things and how to keep it working and usable for the long term. That is the museum's *job*.

    Second, if you want it to last you need to have original source material. Almost 100% of the time that is what the museum will want. If it's a video they do not want a compressed DVD, they'd rather have the uncompressed DV files or 35mm film if they can get it. If it's an application they want the app, the hardware used to run it, the docs used to create it, etc. Sure, you don't have to give these things up if you don't want to, but you can bet the museum will want as much of the original source and documentation of it as they can get. This will help them down the line when they need to convert the original into yet-another-new-format, and help them catalog the work for later generations of staff (and viewers for that matter, meta data is gold).

    Basically, let the museum help you, that's what they're there for. In the meantime, backup, backup, backup, until such time as you have your work acquired by a professional institution.

  87. Use the cloud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Instead of worrying about DVD's/etc why don't you just upload it to the AWS Cloud? S3 has 3 copies of the data at any one time and they must already be managing their harddrive life cycles.

    Let them do the work for you to keep your data always there.

  88. PCM by fadethepolice · · Score: 0

    What abot the new phase change memory? I know it's not mainstream right now but phase change memory has the potential to become a better way to archive. Anyone have data on it's longevity?

  89. DVD-RAM= by Radtoo · · Score: 1

    I suggest DVD-RAM as archival DVD media. Even the caseless variant tends to be sturdy. There's also plenty of drives out there that can read / write them. Other than that, a set of DVD (original + copy), or USB sticks should work, too. You could also add some parity files, to help ensure small errors can be recovered from (generate additiional par2 format files, for example).

  90. the truth about storage technology. by datapharmer · · Score: 1

    I wrote a thesis on this. It is a major problem with no great solutions at this point. My conclusions for video were as follows:

    1. Make an analog film copy if possible. Despite tape being popular and touted among IT types, it actually was reported as having the highest rate of failure among filmmakers. This included partial failure where some information was garbled. Film fared the best and hard-drives did well too. There is not enough data for flash devices yet, and optical isn't great even in optimal conditions.

    2. Make a digital print to MJ2 (Motion JPEG-2000). It is the only well accepted loss-less video standard at this point. Follow the SMPTE guidelines and make sure you save a decoder or at least note which encoder you used - this is the current shortcoming of this format (see this publication for details).

    3. Keep the video in its original format or MPEG-2 as a backup (follow ISO specs if you must convert the original; if keeping the originals note what hardware and software they were created with - THIS IS VITAL!).

    4. Store the data on at least two mediums in at least two locations. If they will be actively using DVD, I recommend DVD and Flash in the museum and Hard Drive and Optical media in another offsite location. Be sure to label with permanent ink the software needed, the platform used, and the disk format. Follow official ISO formats whenever possible when mastering the media. It is essential that you mark what you used to encode so it can be decoded later! Don't assume it will be obvious. As mentioned earlier, if possible use film. It has the advantage of not needing to be decoded by any specific piece of hardware that might go obsolete or break. Light will be around for a while!

    5. Copy, copy, copy. Nothing lasts forever. The museum should already have a policy of duplication and set storage conditions for warehoused items. Make sure they follow it for their digital collections too. Many museums and libraries are lax on this and if things don't change there will be significant cultural losses over the next few decades.

    6.Suggest licensing the same piece to two museums with an ageement that one museum can duplicate the other museums copy should one or the other fail. This is a great fail-safe and reduces the cost of long-term storage.

    Let me know if you have any other questions!

    --
    Get a web developer
  91. 100+ years by sxmjmae · · Score: 1
    DVDs have a shelf life of around ten years; simply, that is simply unacceptable for archive discs.

    There are Archive quality DVDs....

    TDK states their metal-stabilized Cyanine is also stable for 70 years.

    Mitsubishi went in a different direction and produced what is called a Metal Azo dye, that they claim is stable for around 100 years.

    Then there is Matsui?
    http://www.mam-a.com/
    New Lifetime Test results:
    Expected Lifetime:
    MAM-A Gold Archive CD-R: 329 years
    MAM-A Gold Archive DVD-R: 116 years

    Duplicated the data on 5+ disks (like in a RAID structure - maybe even RAID 10 if cost is no object). Supply the whole system to read the data and then have back up hardware in triple redundancy.

    The cheaper solution would be to make a bit torrent of it and have various museum's host the entire bit torrent.

    --
    My Sig indicates the end of the comment I posted.
  92. Long term storage? by DBCubix · · Score: 1

    Engrave it in nickel... http://www.norsam.com/hdrosetta.htm

    --
    I called it a mighty Sperm Whale, she called it Finding Nemo.
  93. Re:Proven track record by jedidiah · · Score: 1

    You know. It's one thing to say that clay tablets are cool because some
    survived but how many really survived. You're not interested in Hamad's
    clay tablets with Yak receipts. You're interested in YOUR clay tablets
    with your awful Vogon poetry on it.

    The question isn't can 'some' clay tablets survive 5000 years but will
    your particular clay tablet survive that long.

    Chances are No.

    The fact that you probably don't live, work and store your stuff in
    an arid climate like a desert probably won't help your prospects either.

    --
    A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  94. LTO Tape by TheSync · · Score: 1

    Most video archivists I have talked to are behind LTO tape.

    Magnetic tape is something that archivists have a pretty long record with, and they feel fairly confident about its ability to survive long periods of time in climate-controlled conditions.

    LTO is being used at the Library of Congress National Audio-Video Conservation Center (NAVCC).

    LTO is being used by most Hollywood studios and a large number of television stations for digitizing their archives.

    Digital tape hard error rate for tape is about 2 orders of magnitude better than disk.

    There is an expectation that there will need to be LTO tape migration every 2 generations or so.

  95. Source code/scripts by Artifex · · Score: 1

    Since you said you're using 3d software to make animations, etc., give them those files. Not just the output. They can always re-render later.

    --
    Get off my launchpad!
    1. Re:Source code/scripts by teknomage1 · · Score: 1

      Maya, for example, often gives different results between versions. It's also been owned by 5 companies in 6 years. What do you figure the odds of your work rendering correctly in 50 years? On the other hand, blender supposedly is still able to open first edition .blend files, but my point is you won't be there to spot check the consistency.

      --
      Stop intellectual property from infringing on me
  96. I just dealt with this problem by dave562 · · Score: 1

    I work in an art museum and we have some digital artwork in the form of mpeg and mov files. They were given to us on external USB drives. One of the drives gave up the ghost. It was a recovery nightmare but once we got everything back together, we settled on the following solution. The works total close to 200GB and are backed up to LTO tape. Whenever they are needed for a show, they are spun off of tape and onto the external drives for display purposes.

    I realize that some other posters have called into question the reliability of tapes. I have never dealt with a bad backup tape. I've had experience with DLT, DDS and LTO tapes going back to the mid-1990s. I think the realistic problem with archiving to tape will be maintain the drive to read it. The tape drive will go out long before the media experiences problems.

    There isn't a universally agreed upon way to deal with digital artwork. One of the best resources out there is the following mailing list. Ask your question there.

    http://www.lsoft.com/scripts/wl.exe?SL1=MUSEUM-L&H=HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

  97. Deviant Art web site by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 1

    My wife sells her photographs via the art website deviantART. They have an interesting culture surrounding visual IP involving various resolutions and watermarks, with online purchase available through normal e-commerce paths. It's an interesting site with a good moderating scheme, attractive page composition and a fairly large following. Stuff actually gets sold, and for decent prices. A support culture of high quality printing and framing has grown around the static pieces. There are worse ways to archive your art, and I strongly recommend it.

    --
    Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
  98. Its super easy by AgNO3 · · Score: 1

    You just render out the seperate RGB channels to black and white film via a film recorder and make sure they either gold tone or selenium tone the film. Then its pretty solid for longevity. To get it back the film is scanned each channel screened against R G and B and voila you have your images back in color. (you are making a color separation and then mixing it back). Basically technicolor process. This is who major films are starting to be stored by both technicolor and deluxe. You can do the same with still and you can render them whatever size you like up to 8x10 res 80 which is an obscene size. Film recorder to 3 separated plates. Black and white film is pretty stable stuff. LIke 300 years when cared for properly.

    --
    OMG Ponies!!! with Glitter!!!! I miss Pink :-(
    1. Re:Its super easy by AgNO3 · · Score: 1

      wait how does giving the answer that is in use in the movie industry get one modded down? This is how they are storing color movies

      --
      OMG Ponies!!! with Glitter!!!! I miss Pink :-(
  99. Microfilm by polyomninym · · Score: 1

    Dump the data to a series of microfilms, store in a canister, decode later.

  100. I wrote a paper about this problem in 2003 by 2001odyssey · · Score: 1

    I wrote a paper about this problem in 2003. I was examining practical innovations that - while expensive - could virtually guarantee recoverability 1000+ years into the future.

    Here are my criteria:

    Must not depend on industrial infrastructure (Mad Max scenario)
    Media must withstand fire, burial or submersion in seawater
    Media must contain detailed instructions for reading it in multiple languages
    Encoding scheme (and metadata) must be straightforward and obvious
    Encoding must be sufficiently redundant to withstand significant damage

    Tough, eh? There are solutions. One solution is to also build a reader/decoder that can withstand burial, submersion, fire, physical damage, etc.

    On a shorter time horizon, if you allow for an industrial infrastructure, microfilm has an estimated lifespan of 500 years. It can't withstand fire; but it should withstand burial and submersion.

  101. burn it into a rom-type chip by theycallmeB · · Score: 1

    Since low cost is not a strict requirement, how about storing the data as hard-wired/burned logic gates in a read-only memory chip, like a motherboard's BIOS? I don't know what the useful life for properly stored silicon chips is exactly, but I am willing to bet it is much longer than flash memory, pressed CDs or magnetic tape. After all, an Atari 7800 stored improperly in the attic for the past fifteen years still boots, and the games still work, so there must be some hardiness to those chips.

  102. There is much truth in this sarcastic reply by 2001odyssey · · Score: 1

    techsoldaten is on the right track. Stone is hard to beat for longevity and resistance to damage. Hieroglyphics are sufficiently decipherable to allow scientists to decode them from scratch. Any serious millenial-class storage would need to take these features into consideration. Remember: If all you care about is longevity - to quote Dr. Strangelove out of context - "there's no limit to the size!" Nobody said it would be cheap; but take a look at what it costs to house, maintain and restore ancient artworks. techsoldaten has it right.

    If you want your art to be recoverable (in some form) 5,000 years from now, you need to make assumptions about not only the temporal journey and potential hazards therein; but also the nature and technical sophistication of the society that is likely to attempt to recover it. The fewer incorrect assumptions, the more likely it will be recovered.

    I find this topic fascinating, on many levels. It's all the more fascinating because even serious archivists can't seem to get beyond the next 100 years or so before their preservation schemes break down.

  103. Re:The problem of single-location is more importan by plover · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That's because you're talking about CDs, and not data transfers among the clouds.

    The original audio CD medium was designed to tolerate errors. If a bit goes bad when you're playing it, you don't stop and pop up a dialog to the user saying "ZOMG! BAD BIT ON TRACK 7! Retry, Cancel or Allow?" The player just compensates for the bad bit and keeps on playing. Similarly, a bad bit on a JPEG or in an MPEG stream won't prevent the images from displaying, or you'd never see a digital TV show, ever.

    But that's not how you transfer data to and from machines on the internet. TCP is a protocol designed to detect some errors and recover from them. Digital signatures provide almost absolute assurance that the copied data is unchanged from the original. Placing data in just about any modern cryptographic digital envelope can give you the assurance that what is in the envelope is the same as what you put in the envelope.

    Even bit torrent is good at providing lossless data storage and transfer.

    So no, you can't compare CDs to cloud storage. They are not even close.

    --
    John
  104. The answer you are looking for is: by feelbad_feelsgood · · Score: 1

    "Yes, you can give me a lot of money and I will provide you with rock-solid assurances about things that will or will not happen after you die."
    Dude, why not just give your money to a church?

  105. Re:The problem of single-location is more importan by afaik_ianal · · Score: 1

    That's kind of a silly argument. It basically boils down to, "if you don't verify your copies, you'll probably get errors, so CDs are bad".

    All you have to do is verify each copy as you go, and there is no error to accumulate. Good ECC will prevent errors cropping up during the life-time of a single disk.

  106. Re:Yes. by lysergic.acid · · Score: 1

    I thought the main purpose of a museum was to share/promote/purvey culture and art. Why would they be opposed to others enjoying a piece of culture/art they feel worthy of archiving? That's like if you sold a copy of a book to a library and then told them, "btw, I'm also giving a thousand copies away"—why should they even care? It's not like they're a book publisher. Do museums purchase works of art just to place licensing restrictions on them? That seems more like the mentality of a film studio.

  107. Dummy, the advantage to digital is lossless copies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Therefore you should NOT transcode. You keep digital artwork in its original form, therefore it loses nothing with each generation copy. Transcoding is lossy.

    But yes, keeping current backups is a good idea. Also using archives with error correction helps.. There are various formats (even RAR) that allow you to make extra n files that can replace any n file in a set that become unreadable.

  108. utter codswallop by ghostdoc · · Score: 1

    only solution guaranteed to last centuries ?

    *** PAPER AND INK ***

    Utter tripe. Paper is subject to a vast array of environmental hazards and will degrade quickly and messily if subject to any of them.

    The usual response to this is that books have survive thousands of years intact...but no they haven't. They're heavily degraded, and the vast majority of them didn't survive (do the maths on monastical book production and surviving examples). The ones that have survived have been patched and repaired and maintained, often poorly, and have only survived because generations of people spent a lot of care on them. As a long-term data storage solution, paper sucks.

    Using a data matrix you'd need to trade off resolution size and storage space. Assuming 1 bit takes up 1 square mm (reasonable to resist degradation from ink seepage over the first hundred years, after which it would probably be unreadable), then an A4 page (allowing for margins) can hold around 56kb (7KB) with no error correction or compression. That's 146 pages per Meg, or 150,000 pages per gig. A standard ream of paper is 500 pages which would contain 7MB of data if you use both sides of each page.
    Assuming your graphic file is 1GB in size, that's 142 reams of paper. Assuming 1Kg per ream (depends on the density of the paper, so arbitrary amount used), that's the weight of two average human beings (or a slashdot reader + laptop). Not really portable, so it'd need to be stored somewhere.

    The storage would need to be environmentally controlled and sterile. The paper is vulnerable to moisture, fungal or bacterial colonisation, insect attack, fire, sunlight, and will degrade naturally with time anyway (rate depending on the paper used).

    I carry a pocket USB stick around with me that has 8 Gb on it...in paper storage that's 1,100 reams of paper, or just over a metric tonne. Point made.

    --
    Business/App ideas are like arseholes: everyone's got one, they're mostly shit, but very rarely they contain a diamond
  109. Re:The problem of single-location is more importan by timmmaay · · Score: 1

    The article on PCM might be the answer. A digital medium that stores information by physical structural change would potentially offer much longer life however given the tech is similar to CD/DVD-RW you might be puting your eggs into a basket no better than DVD. Papyrus, tried and true for centuries.

  110. Re:Yes. by MartinSchou · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    The internet is for archiving.

    No, The Internet Is For Porn!

  111. It's Not Your Problem by FrozenGeek · · Score: 1

    Five years from now, they'll be running it on a different computer. 25 years from now, it'll be running on a radically different computer. All you can do is to put it in a common, well supported format on a medium that they can read today. Do that and you've done your job. Then it's their job to make backups and copy the file(s) to new storage media as appropriate. My question in all of this is how can you be certain that whatever platform/framework/format you choose today will be supported 100 years from now? While it's not strictly your responsibility, if you choose something that falls by the wayside quickly, your work may cease to exist (remember laser disks?).

    --
    linquendum tondere
  112. 2 ideas by dieman · · Score: 1

    Contact some modern art facilities like Walker Art Center in Minneapolis, they often have 'new media' as part of their holdings and must have some sort of solution for this sort of work that they use when they obtain them. Lastly, contact the Internet Archive folks and see if you can work out a deal for it to be put into storage in wait for when it will hit public domain. Perhaps they could hold it for public domain use for free if you were willing to voluntarily reduce your copyright term to something more reasonable than a habajillion years past death. :)

    --
    -- dieman - Scott Dier
  113. DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Use DVD or something commonly in use now that is easily moved to new media - just don't use DRM otherwise your original might be worthless and not because of the media.

  114. Outsource it to someone who understands by stub667 · · Score: 1

    The museum should enter into an agreement with an escrow or backup company to maintain a copy of the data. Its nuts that every museum in the world needs to think all this through and implement their own solutions themselves, or accept home brew solutions from the artists themselves. Go to the experts who know this stuff and get storage and insurance contracts drawn up to cover lossage should the worst occur.

  115. Re:Blended solution? Performance vs Score by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    " only solution guaranteed to last centuries ?

    *** PAPER AND INK *** "

    Absolutely right!!!

    Dear artist,

    Change your mode of operation. Consider the work on DVD as a realization -- a working out-- of your ideas. Other workings out ( working outs?... ok 'realizations' ) are possible. The DVD has the advantage of being the artist's own realization ( think of it as a composer's own performance of his composition ). It is the urtext, the original text.

    What you should be providing to the museum, in addition to YOUR realization of the idea, is a booklet, printed on archival paper, giving detailed instructions to recreate the work.

    If you want to remind the museum staff that DVD or other physical or playback medium is not the piece---- that they need to conserve the expression, and that means transfering it to current playback technology--- well, you can do that.

    But the important thing is the idea. Bach's fugues, whether played on a harpsichord or an organ or a piano or a synthesizer, are unmistakenly his expression.

  116. Something that lasts... by Genda · · Score: 1

    Paged laser etching of quartz or diamond cubes would be the best way to store the data. Then you need a passive reader also made of diamond or quartz, that lasts as long as the data. You could devise a solar (or some other bright light source) powered crystal reader, a self contained system, completely photonic, minimal moving parts, with a virtually infinite life expectancy. Finally, you need a series of primers that begin by providing a simple binary key to the stored data, then systematically providing primers of growing complexity, ultimately explaining how to reformat and play the data. The good news, is that if you do it once, you can place the same information as a header on every crystal data cube to ensure that any single cube found in the future can be read. With enough cubes in the world, the data formats will become defacto standards. Cubes could be stored in geologically safe warehouses with museums, private owners, and galleries being able to access the art remotely (ownership and rights of use would be managed through a legal body of some kind.)

  117. Re:Yes. by nablove_123 · · Score: 1

    funny.thank"/ 1"

  118. Space-directed radiation as storage medium by cyberfringe · · Score: 1

    Other than stone tablets, one proven very long term data storage medium is interstellar space. For example, the data reaching us from distant stars and galaxies may be millions or billions of years old and yet it is preserved in pristine condition. One suggestion is to encode your work in a suitable format along with decoding instructions and then radiate the data into space using high power antenna's such as JPL's Deep Space Network. Your work is now effectively immortal. Reading the data "later" will require some finesse, as you must travel FTL to intercept the transmission. Alternatively, you can position reflectors on the Moon and Phobos (orbiting Mars), for example (you might choose other Solar bodies for engineering reasons) and bounce the signal perpetually between the two. With no atmospheric interference the signal would not be expected to degrade for quite some time depending on energy, wavelength and reflective material you use. Just a thought. You said price was not an issue.

    --
    There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about. -- John von Neumann
  119. LOCKSS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Tell the museum to get involved in a LOCKSS (Lots of Copies Keeps Stuff Safe - http://www.lockss.org/) private network. For an example, see the Alabama Digital Preservation Network (http://www.adpn.org/).

  120. Re:Proven track record by snowgirl · · Score: 1

    You know. It's one thing to say that clay tablets are cool because some
    survived but how many really survived. You're not interested in Hamad's
    clay tablets with Yak receipts. You're interested in YOUR clay tablets
    with your awful Vogon poetry on it.

    The question isn't can 'some' clay tablets survive 5000 years but will
    your particular clay tablet survive that long.

    Chances are No.

    The fact that you probably don't live, work and store your stuff in
    an arid climate like a desert probably won't help your prospects either.

    I dismissed clay tablets... primarily because they would be difficult to reconstruct significant amounts of data from in any sort of efficient manner.

    You however do not know the location of where I live. In fact, I grew up in an arid environment. I no longer live there, because I grew tired of the weather.

    --
    WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
  121. Re:Yes. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the data stored electronically and retrievable through the internet must be maintained constantly. Hard drives crash, cd's/dvd's go bad, tape backups fail, etc..
    the internet itself is merely a means to communicate information from one system to another. This constant sharing of information does help the archival effort but eventually without maintenance information is lost.

    Think about the Rosetta stone. When we found that was there a society of "keepers" with it, transcribing and maintaining it? keeping it from getting too worn down or broken? no. it was unattended.

    we have to assume that eventually either no one will be around to maintain the data, or it will be forgotten.

    We need a system by which the data will survive on it's own just by the medium it's stored on. And history has shown stone tablets to be the best way of doing that.

    Unfortunately storing digital data on stone isn't practical because a) there's far too many bits and even if we came up with some base-1024 number system that might solve that problem we'd still have b) no one would know what it means or how the bits are to be used?
    is it text? should we consult an ascii chart? is it an mp3 file? what is it?

    I think the best way to approach this problem is assume that humanity is going to cease to exist for a few millennia and then suddenly re-emerge. How can we communicate to this next iteration of humans?

    I guess we could have plain-english rfc's lying around which instructs how to decode the data.

  122. Archival solution available by campeonbml · · Score: 1

    This IS a huge problem, which I have been researching for about 5 years. My research has been successful, and we have started a company to finish development and sell an archival DVD which WILL last for many, many years. We're targeting 1,000 years, and have proof that our DVD lasts MUCH longer than any of the "archival-quality" DVDs available. It is the ONLY solution for permanent data storage. See www.millenniata.com for more details. Or email me at luntb@byu.edu, or call me at Brigham Young University at 801-422-2264.

  123. 2-D Bar-codes on Silver-Halide film. by GrantRobertson · · Score: 1

    I have been waiting for someone to start putting 2-D bar-codes on silver-halide film. If you use heavy duty film with a nice thick silver-halide layer and don't try to micro-size the bar-code blocs too much then it should last for hundreds of years. Sure it is a bit bulky and doesn't look uber high-tech but it works. Plus, it is possible to include a text description and a black and white picture of what the work is supposed to look like right on the film for easy cataloging and sorting without using any technology at all. It is the best of both worlds.

  124. Anonymous Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am a digital painter and thus create large files that I store on Hard drives, DVDs and CDs. Mostly due to the huge file sizes, I find that multiple Hard Drives have been the most sensible. I keep them in varying locations. I have not found that DVDs are failing at all. I keep them in a cool and dry dark room and thus, they are not exposed to UV or visible light or humidity and as such they are likely to be better preserved than most examples of this product. I worry about the HDs however as they do fail from not using them as much as from using them. It is a real problem for a single person who cannot afford some sort of huge back up array or network system which after all is only as good as the monthly payment to keep the material archived. I print all my best work on archival paper and inks so at least one copy of everything worthy in my opinion of my works will exist when the digital files finally die in some horrid silent invisible death. What can one say? Art is transient no matter how hard one tries to make it forever. Paper is paper and plastic is just that..plastic in the sense that artists use the word..changing and mutable. One can only hope that civilisation does not crash and burn but you and I know that it will once again and then again after that. The Conquistadors destroyed all the gold idols and writing of their conquered peoples so even the most archival of materials are at the whim of other people. One man's creation is another's gold ingot. My suggestion is to have many copies, recopy to later formats, suggest that this be done by museums that own the works, hope they do it from time to time. Keep separate and distinct formats, keep up with the latest and greatest ones and treat them as I do..an archival location so that at least while you yourself are still here on the planet, the work is preserved. What happens after? Ask Von Gogh. Some of his paintings were used to keep the chickens in the coop. Sadly, we have no control over serendipity. What survives..survives and what does not....digital or otherwise, does not.

  125. Millenium DVD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There was actually a slashdot article in July about a startup from Ohio that was developing 1000 year shelf stable DVD's.

    http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/07/17/1213203

    You mentioned that the solution didn't have to be inexpensive, so you might want to contact these folks and see just how expensive their gear is.

  126. Yes again, but different by Network+Footsoldier · · Score: 1

    Notwithstanding a glut of Slashdot posts on archiving in general, I can assure you as one of the founders of the Variable Media Network (mentioned by another commenter above) that the challenge of preserving new media art can be much trickier than archiving scientific data or home movies. Art often depends on the look and feel of its technological platform, making it impossible to advise every artist to, say, migrate to the latest screen resolution or run outdated software in an off-the-shelf emulator.

    Each artist will require a different strategy depending on what is most important to preserve about their particular work. Software artist Mark Napier advises future conservators to reverse-engineer the Java applet running his project net.flag, because it is ultimately reducible to a set of clear instructions. Other works, such as Nam June Paik's TV Crown or Cory Arcangel's Super Mario Clouds, depend on hardware hacks that wouldn't make sense if the images they display were pried loose from the specific technologies employed by the original works (in this case, a CRT and a Nintendo cartridge system).

    To explore these divergent preservation strategies, the Variable Media Network has organized exhibitions that let viewers compare emulated artworks side-by-side with versions running on the original hardware (Seeing Double). Given that it is impossible to preserve all of the aspects of a new media artwork, we've also created a questionnaire that helps artists specify which aspects of their work are most important to preserve (the Variable Media Questionnaire).

    Even relatively straightforward media such as 3d animations still present several possible preservation trajectories, and a museum with limited resources may need to prioritize among them. Rick Rinehart of the Variable Media Network tells the story of a visit from Pixar representatives to the Berkeley Art Museum/Pacific Film Archives to ask how to preserve Toy Story. After lecturing Pixar about cold storage and safety film, Rick's colleague was taken aback when the Pixar reps clarified that they didn't want to save the film, but to save the movie. In other words, the physical film stock was less useful to them than the 3d data files from which the movie could be recovered.

    Standards for preserving film are more established than for preserving 3d data, so in this case it really depends on whether the artist is more concerned with fidelity to the original resolution and color depth (film) or adaptability to future display methods (movie).

  127. COBAL by tengu1sd · · Score: 1

    Is COBAL the latest open source COBOL compiler?