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Scientists Decry "Horrifying" UK Border Test Plan
cremeglace writes "Scientists are dismayed and outraged at a new project by the UK border agency to test DNA, hair, and nails to determine the nationality of asylum seekers and help decide if they can enter the UK. 'Horrifying,' 'naive,' and 'flawed' are among the words geneticists and isotope specialists have used to describe the 'Human Provenance pilot project.' The methods being used to determine ancestry include fingerprinting of mitochondrial DNA and isotope analysis of hair and nails. ScienceInsider blog notes that it is 'not clear who is conducting the DNA and isotope analyses for the Border Agency,' and that the agency has not 'cited any scientific papers that validate its DNA and isotope methods.' There is also a followup post with more information on the tests that are being used, and some reactions from experts in genetic forensic analysis. This story was first reported in The Observer on Sunday."
This isn't even funny anymore.
Aparently, simply discrimating by skin color is not cool anymore.
They had a TV program last year when they did some genetic tests on people who considered themselves to be 100% English. I remember that out of 12 one had mitochondrial DNA that would have had his female line originating in Eastern Europe, one had Jewish ancestry and another Indian - and these were all people who did not know of any non-British relatives.
Add to that the millions of people who have known foreign ancestry but British citizenship and the whole idea becomes useless.
The problem isn't the scientific validity of the test; the problem is the idea that an emigrant's nationality should factor into whether they should be allowed residency.
The science is horrible, but the root of the problem is primarily political and perhaps moral.
Soon to be in an airport near you...mandatory DNS sample of all visitors to this, thank God, free country.
It seems that Britain has finally become the true antithesis of an Empire: rather than trying to expand, it wants to shrink and implode upon itself....
It's not far.
Isn't the out of Africa theory based on the situation where there is as much genetic diversity in people within Africa as there is worldwide? There is no "Arab" gene, and even if there were consider that Saddam was born only about 300 miles due south of his very european hero Joseph Stalin.
Security theatre snake oil strikes again in a fairly nasty and devisive way. You might as well screen people by height or just admit the predjudice and screen for skin colour because many people from Pakistan and India look like exactly like many dark haired europeans with a deep tan.
Somebody is in it for the money and is playing off people's predjudices to get it.
You mean like Franks, Saxons, Walloons/Welsh and Frisians all living in one country?
Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
It has to go this way for V to eventually be able to come and free us!
It shows how unfaithful the movie was to the spirit and political ideals of alan moore's comic, that the message you received is to wait for some superhero to come and free you.
Would they look at my half Scotish side? Or the German half? Or would they look at it and say I came straight out of a chimp via Africa and Mesopotamia?
100% of the people in Washington DC are of African descent.
The so-called tests will find exactly what they are designed to find, and that is a reason to exclude undesirables by broad category. The categories are all ready figured out (skin color, etc.). "Science" provides the rational cover for what would otherwise be overt racism. I say, call it like it is: bigotry.
There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about. -- John von Neumann
Hussein was a communist
No, he was a ba'athist, which differs from communism in a few ways. It's basically a home-grown version of despotism that co-opts local tribalism to build the apparatus of repression.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
...if the country announcing such plans wasn't the UK, but Germany.
Should the authorities simply look the other way and allow GB to be flooded with illegal aliens who refuse to assimilate into British society?
The answer is, of course, "no". The electorate in both France and Germany said, "no", when voters elected pro-Western politicians to run the government.
Let's be clear on this matter. Uncontrolled immigration wrecks a society. France now has large ghettos of Middle Easterners and Africans who refuse to assimilate into French society. They should be deported.
At this point, someone will cry, "racism". The correct rebuttal is to highlight the French of East-Asian ancestry. They readily assimilate and do not pose a problem for the French. In much the same way, Americans of East-Asian ancestry have assimilated and contributed significantly to American society. During World War II, Japanese-Americans volunteered to fight against both German and Japan -- yes, Japan. The 442 battalion of Nissei was the most decorated battalion in the U. S. Army. The Nissei showed their valor when they rescued a group of American soldiers who had been trapped in the Battle of the Bulge.
Every nation in Europe has the right (1) to determine who can enter a European country and (2) to favor some immigrants over others. I applaud the British government for its recent tough stance against uncontrolled immigration from Africa and the Middle East.
...and write a policy that says, "Wogs, go home"?
Seriously, it amounts to the same thing, but it eliminates all the funds that would be spent on all of these DNA tests. Because after all, if the accident of someone's birth is enough to determine their worthiness for British society, why not just do it on sight? "Get lost, coon!" It'll save a fortune.
P.S. Sure, a bunch of American Japanese did fight in the U.S. Army against Japan in World War II. The alternative, of course, was internment camp. Funny how war, fear, and poverty can make xenophobes out of even the most enlightened cultures.
Breakfast served all day!
I expect no less from New Labour's Grenzpolitzei. Tbh I'm surprised they aren't just proposing to shoot all asylum seekers on entry.
We have 'lazy assholes living off the dole' who are British. I'm saying that we don't add immigrants to their number. How we resolve benefit fraud is not the topic of discussion.
That's fine, though. Please, do provide more insight into the topic below. I find poor reasoning and pointless insults very conducive to debate.
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
Decrying an unpleasant situation is insufficient, when the alternatives are worse.
Assuming we really do buy rare elements only from Africa and not also from China, Russia and Argentina which have a lot of them as well. Our alternatives then would be:
A) We don't buy rare earth elements from Africa:
Western standard of living: lower, prices for goods are higher, some goods are infeasible.
African standards of living: less exports, less jobs for average Joes, less warlord financing, probably more diverse criminal activity and stability. Example: cell phones are available only for the very top of society in Africa, prices are too high for everyone else.
B) We pay "fair trade" prices for rare elements from Africa: (assuming someone can properly the "fair" price of anything)
Western standard of living: lower, prices for goods are higher, some goods are infeasible. Example: Cell phones are expensive
African standards of living: less exports, less jobs for average Joes, probably equal warlord financing, criminal activity and stability remains constant. Cell phones become expensive that new models are only available to a smaller percentage of African people.
C) We pay whatever the market price for rare earth elements is:
Western standard of living: as high as the market prices allow
African standards of living: more exports, more jobs for average Joes, more financing for warlords, a broader middle class, less diverse criminal activity, more stability. Cell phones are an ubiquitous commodity for a large part of the population.
Trade benefits both parties or it's not trade. Trade between totally unequal partners can benefit both. Economics 101. Do your research.
I know that Nazism did horrible things in the past and that (in theory) people of all races and nations are equal, but being always politically correct and not even trying to discuss issues like that makes them even worse.
I don't care about other people's nation or the colour of their skin. I do care about the culture they bring with them. And I do think that culture in Europe should remain predominantly European. This means either assimilating other cultures (people representing them living in Europe), or limiting amount of other cultures (people representing them) we import, or both.
I don't condone 1984-ish measures like described in this story, but I do think there should be limits to immigration, and I think toleration can go too far.
--Coder
What the fuck is going on over there?
Seriously, cameras in people's homes to make sure their kids are being "properly parented;" testing DNA at the border to determine ethnicity (and who knows what else, because what does race have to do with nationality these days)... Branding children as future criminals at age 5 based on hyperactive or normal anti-social kid behavior....and there's more that I can't even remember now.
England is becoming some nightmare 1984/Gattaca mashup...Brave New World indeed.
That's a pretty remarkable DNA test that can tell someone's political affiliation (because, let's face it, that's what they're actually checking for - guilt by racial association). I'll bet within 6 months or so they'll even be able to tell what religion one subscribes to! In a couple of years, what ice cream flavor you prefer and (gasp!) your actual sexual orientation!!! I feel so much safer now!
What won't surprise me is if some Giant Old Man In The Sky just waves his pinky finger at this planet and demolishes it wholesale in complete frustration. Couldn't blame Him at all for that...
~Just as a thing fails if it lacks a kernel, so too it fails if it lacks a skin. ~ Rumi, Discourses
1. Dig up George Orwell from his grave.
2. Hook him up to a generator.
3. Watch him spin! (Wheeee!)
4. Profit!
[End Of Line]
Even if you made the ludicrous assumption that they could consistently and accurately get meaningful results from the test (I wouldn't have that much faith in a government lab associated with the immigration office), there's the fundamental logical problem: your genes (physical composition) haven't much relation to your nationality.
A lot of American citizens came from somewhere else. Israel will accept anyone that can properly document their jewishness (honestly, I have no idea what their criteria are) as a citizen.
UK immigration rules are based on nationality, which is a mutable trait (I can change it, at will, with a certain amount of effort). Isotopic measures probably relate more to occupation than "origin", and your genetic history is an independent variable. My kids have dual nationalities, and if my wife and I adopted a child from abroad, it could have 3 or more. How would the genetic test effectively identify the provenance (in legal terms) of the child. A US citizen could easily be genetically tied to any country on the planet and be no less a US citizen than someone in Chicago.
There are fairly well defined geographical boundaries. I don't think anyone would argue that Africa belongs to Europe.
However, I'm mostly talking about culture here. I am aware the subject matter is fuzzy and changing. However I don't think things like sharia law or non-secular society will ever be acceptable anywhere in Europe. There are certain values that must be preserved- like freedom of speech, secularism, democracy, free-thinking, individualism, value of life.
Your argument that borders are fuzzy and changing is something like arguing that a gradient image with black on top and white in the bottom is all the same colour. It isn't, it's white on the top, and black on the bottom and gray in the middle. There is no well defined border, but that doesn't mean that white and black are same colours.
--Coder
It is the UK government, scared shitless by the right wing press, who refuse permission to work to people that are requesting to stay in the UK.
Asylum seekers have said in many instances that they would be happy to earn their own sustenance while their case is reviewed and adjudicated. If they are a burden (minimally small one btw) it is not a situation of their choosing.
Don't blame economic migrants and asylum seekers for the ineptitude of the UK authorities, the UK should have a fair and expedite system to deal with asylum claimants and a clear program to deal with illegal immigrants (which BTW are not the same group of people, the UK has international legal obligations regarding asylum seekers, it is irrelevant if asylum seekers don't apply for asylum in other countries through which their transit, if the UK was more engaged with the EU then perhaps an EU wide agreement about sharing the burden of receiving asylum seekers could be agreed, but again, it is not the fault of migrants if the UK can't make up their bloody mind regarding the relationship with the rest of Europe).
IANAL but write like a drunk one.