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Company Uses DMCA To Take Down Second-Hand Software

dreemteem writes "A judge Tuesday heard arguments in a dispute over software sales that could potentially have repercussions on the secondhand sale of virtually any copyrighted material. The suit was filed by Timothy Vernor, a seller on eBay, after Autodesk, citing the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, asked eBay to remove some of its software products that Vernor had listed for sale there, and later to ban him from the site. Vernor had not illegally copied the software but was selling legitimate CDs of the products secondhand. For that reason, he argued, he was not infringing Autodesk's copyright. Autodesk countered that because it licenses the software, rather than selling it outright, a licensee does not have the right to resell its products."

11 of 488 comments (clear)

  1. Autodesk will lose by TheSpoom · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Vernor absolutely has the right to resell his CD, due to a well-known section of copyright law known as first-sale doctrine. If you legally possess a copyrighted work, you can resell it, as long as a new copy is not created. I don't think this case will last very long.

    Now, the DMCA would allow Autodesk to, say, validate a CD key online once only and then deny future installs on other hardware, since any attempt to get past that would be a circumvention attempt prohibited by the DMCA. But it's not Vernor's fault that Autodesk didn't do that. (Of course, just maybe they know that if they did, customers would be more reluctant to buy their software since most people don't like DRM.)

    I am not a laywer.

    --
    It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
    - E. Debs
    1. Re:Autodesk will lose by commodore64_love · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I had a stupid shithead company do that to me when I tried to sell my DVD of "Hunt for Red October". For some reason they kept telling Ebay I was selling an illegal copy, even though it was clearly storebought. Ebay stupidly listens to these companies, so I eventually moved my selling over to Amazon. Way to shoot yourself in the foot ebay.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    2. Re:Autodesk will lose by CopaceticOpus · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Now, the DMCA would allow Autodesk to, say, validate a CD key online once only and then deny future installs on other hardware.

      I am curious why this is not also a violation of the first sale doctrine. If I am allowed by law to sell a copyrighted work which I have legally purchased, Autodesk should not be permitted to implement a system which takes this right away.

      I would also like to know if there is any legal case to made that Sony and Microsoft should allow for some way to resell downloadable games which have been purchased on a console.

    3. Re:Autodesk will lose by TheSpoom · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There's apparently a bunch of confusion in the courts here. There are other cases on the same page (the first-sale doctrine page) that ended with first-sale being upheld even though the EULA said the user had to give up that right.

      Personally, I think that software publishers should not be able to legally disallow first-sale like that. If they could, the same could be done with, for example, books, and resale could be completely prohibited just by saying "this book is licensed not sold; your license prohibits you from reselling the book."

      Wouldn't that be a boon for book publishers?

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
    4. Re:Autodesk will lose by modemboy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You do realize that the case that established the first sale doctrine was exactly what you describe, a book publisher attempting to control resale price of their book through a license page. It's even linked from the wiki article you posted: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobbs-Merrill_Co._v._Straus

      It blows my mind the legal gyrations they must go through to rationalize why this is not acceptable for books but a-ok for software.

    5. Re:Autodesk will lose by sumdumass · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Ebay is setting itself up for a lawsuit. The DMCA protections require the service to restore the content on a counter claim in order to gain protections against damages from the copyrighted materials being removed.

      They aren't obligated to restore it, but when they do not, they lose that protection. The idea is that if there is a challenge, then the courts and not the provider will work it out.

  2. Re:The guys lawyer by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    As I recall, there is a fixed penalty in the DMCA for sending takedown notices that you know to be illegitimate. This is usually difficult to prove, but given that they have already lost a lawsuit on the exact same issue it should be relatively easy in this case.

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    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  3. Re: Licensed books by Stanislav_J · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A friend who sells books on eBay often sells used copies of the Jane's books (Jane's All the World's Aircraft, Jane's Fighting Ships, etc.), the annual editions of which sell new for $900+. He's listed many of these over the years, but recently out of nowhere he gets an inquisitory e-mail from Jane's, demanding that he inform them of the source from which he obtained the books, and strongly suggesting that he not list them anymore because the reduced prices he gets for resale are "diminishing the perceived value of our products." He was tempted to tell them what to stick where, but as he put it, "the next step may be legal, and right or wrong, I don't want to get into a transatlantic pissing match over this."

    (So now, he sends any Jane's books he finds to me, I list them, and we split the profits. And no nastygrams from across the pond yet. Yay for me.)

    A good example, though, of how even a legally misguided implied threat can intimidate someone. If my friend sold nothing but Jane's books, he'd be more inclined to fight, but he does a decent business without them, and just figures he'll avoid getting into something that he has neither the time or money to deal with.

    --
    "Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket." -- Eric Hoffer
  4. funny by TRRosen · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Autodesk's site has a tab to PURCHASE the product but not one for licensing. hmmm thats odd !!

  5. Interesting by ratboy666 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Because I am having a problem wrapping my mind around the US law.

    The DMCA protects copyrighted works. Of course, the Autodesk software is copyrighted, but it is also licensed. Autodesk alleges that the software cannot be resold, due to licensing restrictions.

    Copyright has not come into play yet.

    Which I get. This may be disputed, but will falls under contract law.

    Now, Autodesk enjoins EBay to remove the software, alleging a DMCA violation. Where the fuck did THAT come from? Copyright was never infringed (as far as I can see). Of course, EBay removes the software, but Autodesk must have known that this was not a Copyright infraction! Of course they hold the Copyright, but first-sale doctrine would apply.

    DMCA shouldn't apply. But, hey, colour me confused. Now I understand that it would be illegal to have illegal licensing terms, but the only terms that could possibly apply (in a recent license) would be (1) The DMCA covers the Copyrighted portions (which is the case anyway, so why bother mentioning it), or (2) We allow the additional dropping of DMCA terms. In any case, any additional restrictions would be license restrictions, and not DMCA restrictions. Specifically, the removal of the first-sale doctrine would be a licensing term, and would not follow Copyright.

    Which would appear to make a DMCA takedown inapplicable.

    But what the fuck do I know? US law confuses me...

    --
    Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
  6. "never bought..." by msauve · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...and if he didn't "buy" them, then he's not "selling" them, either, just getting money in exchange for them [sic], same as Autodesk did.

    --
    "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law