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Company Uses DMCA To Take Down Second-Hand Software

dreemteem writes "A judge Tuesday heard arguments in a dispute over software sales that could potentially have repercussions on the secondhand sale of virtually any copyrighted material. The suit was filed by Timothy Vernor, a seller on eBay, after Autodesk, citing the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, asked eBay to remove some of its software products that Vernor had listed for sale there, and later to ban him from the site. Vernor had not illegally copied the software but was selling legitimate CDs of the products secondhand. For that reason, he argued, he was not infringing Autodesk's copyright. Autodesk countered that because it licenses the software, rather than selling it outright, a licensee does not have the right to resell its products."

16 of 488 comments (clear)

  1. Autodesk will lose by TheSpoom · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Vernor absolutely has the right to resell his CD, due to a well-known section of copyright law known as first-sale doctrine. If you legally possess a copyrighted work, you can resell it, as long as a new copy is not created. I don't think this case will last very long.

    Now, the DMCA would allow Autodesk to, say, validate a CD key online once only and then deny future installs on other hardware, since any attempt to get past that would be a circumvention attempt prohibited by the DMCA. But it's not Vernor's fault that Autodesk didn't do that. (Of course, just maybe they know that if they did, customers would be more reluctant to buy their software since most people don't like DRM.)

    I am not a laywer.

    --
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    1. Re:Autodesk will lose by commodore64_love · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I had a stupid shithead company do that to me when I tried to sell my DVD of "Hunt for Red October". For some reason they kept telling Ebay I was selling an illegal copy, even though it was clearly storebought. Ebay stupidly listens to these companies, so I eventually moved my selling over to Amazon. Way to shoot yourself in the foot ebay.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    2. Re:Autodesk will lose by TheSpoom · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, unfortunately eBay will pretty much always follow through on a requested auction takedown from a content producer. They just don't want to be involved in their lawsuit.

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
    3. Re:Autodesk will lose by TheSpoom · · Score: 5, Funny

      Hey, can I copy your comment to use as an example on the Wikipedia false dichotomy page? It's a really good one.

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
    4. Re:Autodesk will lose by Xtravar · · Score: 5, Funny

      As someone in another forum put it so eloquently for me when ebay recently banned a completely legal herbal product:

      ebay's like a really bad and inefficient parent. We weren't really doing anything all that bad, but ebay came home with a bad attitude and probably a little drunk. 15 minutes of bitching about the Jews and now somehow we're grounded from buying and selling X on ebay.

      And then a week later ebay wakes up and forgets its hangover, remembers yelling about something, but completely forgot about X. Randomly sometimes ebay will smack an auction for back sass, then all the other auctions hide and change go under assumed names because ebay's so drunk it cant figure out the simple euphemisms.

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    5. Re:Autodesk will lose by samkass · · Score: 5, Informative

      Ebay is legally required to take it down if they are served with a DMCA notice. However, if you file a counter-notice, they are correspondingly legally required to put it back up unless the Copyright owner files suit against you.

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      E pluribus unum
    6. Re:Autodesk will lose by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Except in this case Vernor has never installed the software, never agreed to any EULA, and never clicked any 'I Agree' button.

    7. Re:Autodesk will lose by QuoteMstr · · Score: 5, Informative

      That's where the First Sale Doctrine comes from: book publishers tried to slap EULAs on books around the turn of the 20th century that, among other things, prohibited resale. The courts found that these EULAs are non-binding.

      We've already been through this bullshit once before, or at least our ancestors have.

    8. Re:Autodesk will lose by commodore64_love · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Anonymous shithead wrote:

      good.
      Otherwise the place would be 99% full of copied, stolen software.You would think that software developers here would see what a bad thing that would be for the entire industry.
      Either you limit resale, or you limit copying.
      Or you all get jobs as bricklayers.
      Choose.

      I'm sorry. What??? How is it acceptable that I was not able to sell my used DVD of "Hunt for Red October" due to takedowns? Sorry Mr. Anonymous but there is simply NO way you can justify that act. I have the inalienable *right* to sell my old unwanted CDs, DVD, or disks.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    9. Re:Autodesk will lose by modemboy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You do realize that the case that established the first sale doctrine was exactly what you describe, a book publisher attempting to control resale price of their book through a license page. It's even linked from the wiki article you posted: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobbs-Merrill_Co._v._Straus

      It blows my mind the legal gyrations they must go through to rationalize why this is not acceptable for books but a-ok for software.

    10. Re:Autodesk will lose by smallfries · · Score: 5, Funny

      You may have to write a new false trichotomy page to really let his comment shine.

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    11. Re:Autodesk will lose by commodore64_love · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Only if you believe authority comes from Congress.

      I don't. I think authority comes from the People first, the State Constitution second, the State Legislatures third, the U.S. Constitution fourth, and the United States/Congress dead last. Authority flows from the People downward. That said - as the final holder of authority, we the people still retain the right of resale.

      i.e. If I convert my wealth from gold, silver, or dollars to a DVD, TV, or computer, I also have an inalienable right to convert that material wealth back to dollars via the open market. Congress was NEVER granted the authority to stop sales of used products. See the constitution- "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." Also see amendment 10.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
  2. Hope they win by elrous0 · · Score: 5, Informative

    The fact that there is no used market is one of the reasons I left PC gaming behind several years ago. I can usually buy a used copy of a console game for a fraction of the new price, and it's saved me a fortune over the years. With PC games, there basically is no buying games used. The PC software industry has been bullying sites like ebay for years. Game publishers would no doubt like to kill the used market on console games too (that's why they're salivating so much over the prospect of going to download-only games and expansions), but so far have been stymied by technological limitations and a traditionally strong used game market for consoles. Just look in any Gamestop and you'll see a huge console section (with mostly used games) and an almost non-existent PC game section.

    Why should PC games be regarded as so different? There is no reason game publishers couldn't require their software be used on one computer at a time the same as a console disc. Why should they be able to use that lame "We're not selling it, we're just licensing it" argument to stop resale of the physical software discs when movie studios and console game developers can't get away with it?

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  3. Re:The guys lawyer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I should hope so, they already won the court case more than a year ago when AutoDesk got bitchslapped hard.

    eBay is the one that needs to be slapped now. As far the AutoDesk continuing to send DMCA notices, well they need to be put in jail for harassment.

  4. If they win, it's time to change the law by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Now, the DMCA would allow Autodesk to, say, validate a CD key online once only and then deny future installs on other hardware, since any attempt to get past that would be a circumvention attempt prohibited by the DMCA. But it's not Vernor's fault that Autodesk didn't do that. (Of course, just maybe they know that if they did, customers would be more reluctant to buy their software since most people don't like DRM.)

    Unfortunately, I don't believe most consumers really appreciate the dangers of DRM yet. I'm looking forward to the day that a court case comes up where someone tries to sell on a second-hand product (software, e-book, whatever), gets told they can't because DMCA/EUCD/whatever anti-circumvention provisions are artificially blocking the sale, and then goes after the original supplier for fraud. Remember, in many jurisdictions, there is a fundamental requirement for honesty/understanding in any contract, and often there are laws specifically for one-sided cases such as where one party (the software/e-book/whatever business) had expensive lawyers write some huge long contract and a typical other party (a consumer making a purchase) could not reasonably be expected to understand all the subtle implications of the legal fine print.

    Perhaps it's about time we had a balancing law that anyone selling[1] software with artificial, external barriers to use[2] must lodge a version of their software with no such barriers with some central organisation or forfeit their anti-circumvention protections entirely. The central organisation would then be free to release the unrestricted software on expiry of the copyright or in the event that a user was unable to make fair use[3] of the software and those who accepted the money/hold the rights failed to make reasonable allowance for this on request.

    [1] No, you don't get to weasel out of this by claiming it's licensed, not sold. If you take money for it, consumers think it's either a sale (by default) or a rental (if there is a clear, fixed timespan attached).

    [2] By "artificial, external barriers to use" I mean things like product activation and DRM schemes.

    [3] Or whatever your jurisdiction calls its equivalent concept.

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  5. Re: Licensed books by commodore64_love · · Score: 5, Insightful

    On the day when an American is no longer able to buy a book, read it, and then resell it to somebody else, I'm moving to Russia where freedom still lives. (How delightfully ironic.)

    --
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall