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On the Efficacy of Flu Vaccine
The Atlantic is running a major article questioning the received wisdom about flu vaccines and antivirals, for both seasonal flu and H1-N1. "When Lisa Jackson, a physician and senior investigator with the Group Health Research Center, in Seattle, began wondering aloud to colleagues if maybe something was amiss with the estimate of 50 percent mortality reduction for people who get flu vaccine, the response she got sounded more like doctrine than science. 'People told me, "No good can come of [asking] this,"' she says... Nonetheless, in 2004, Jackson and three colleagues set out to determine whether the mortality difference between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated might be caused by a phenomenon known as the 'healthy user effect.' Jackson's findings showed that outside of flu season, the baseline risk of death among people who did not get vaccinated was approximately 60 percent higher than among those who did, lending support to the hypothesis that on average, healthy people chose to get the vaccine, while the 'frail elderly' didn't or couldn't. In fact, the healthy-user effect explained the entire benefit that other researchers were attributing to flu vaccine, suggesting that the vaccine itself might not reduce mortality at all." Read below for more excerpts from the article.
The annals of medicine are littered with treatments and tests that became medical doctrine on the slimmest of evidence, and were then declared sacrosanct and beyond scientific investigation. ...
This is the curious state of debate about the government's two main weapons in the fight against pandemic flu. At first, government officials declare that both vaccines and drugs are effective. When faced with contrary evidence, the adherents acknowledge that the science is not as crisp as they might wish. Then, in response to calls for placebo-controlled trials, which would provide clear results one way or the other, the proponents say such studies would deprive patients of vaccines and drugs that have already been deemed effective. ...
In the absence of better evidence, vaccines and antivirals must be viewed as only partial and uncertain defenses against the flu. And they may be mere talismans. By being afraid to do the proper studies now, we may be condemning ourselves to using treatments based on illusion and faith rather than sound science.
The annals of medicine are littered with treatments and tests that became medical doctrine on the slimmest of evidence, and were then declared sacrosanct and beyond scientific investigation. ...
This is the curious state of debate about the government's two main weapons in the fight against pandemic flu. At first, government officials declare that both vaccines and drugs are effective. When faced with contrary evidence, the adherents acknowledge that the science is not as crisp as they might wish. Then, in response to calls for placebo-controlled trials, which would provide clear results one way or the other, the proponents say such studies would deprive patients of vaccines and drugs that have already been deemed effective. ...
In the absence of better evidence, vaccines and antivirals must be viewed as only partial and uncertain defenses against the flu. And they may be mere talismans. By being afraid to do the proper studies now, we may be condemning ourselves to using treatments based on illusion and faith rather than sound science.
If its four or five days from two illnesses then its not Flu. Thats a cold.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
The flu shot is not about preventing you from dying. It's to avoid you from getting sick and infecting other people who may have weaker immune systems and have higher risk of dying if they get sick.
While this does raise some questions about the efficacy of the vaccine. It doesn't prove conlusively it does nothing. Not that you would know that from the editorializing the author does.
Also a second situation which would lead to the similar results. That people who got the shot...*gasp* likely got the shot the previous year and *shock* have some built up immunity due to the previous years shot.
This physician... not a biologist. Sounds like shes not very good at what shes supposed to be doing. The information she presented proves nothing. She randmly concludes just 1 or many possible scenarios based on her predisposition. Poor poor science.
36,000 die of complications from the flu annually in the US. That's very nearly as many as die from car accidents.
There is a very simple way to test the effectiveness of a vaccine and that is to carry out a double blind study utilising placebos alongside the active vaccine. Any effect that is solely due to the "healthy user effect" would be virtually eliminated.
further problems: the article has no references, no real hard data from relevant studies and several studies contradict the article's assertions.
Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
I think it's commendable that folks still challenge received wisdom, and are actually attempting to answer difficult questions, as opposed to merely sweeping them under the carpet.
However at the same time, we need to be super, super careful that we don't encourage the fringe extremist nutters in the antivax movement, who are sure to seize upon doubts of the efficacy of the swine flu vaccine as PROOF that all vaccination is bad, and that we should protect our kids by going to flu and chickenpox parties because it's "natural".
And I would need convincing that this isn't some kind of stunt by Group Health or other elements of the private health industry to wriggle out of paying for flu shots. Gotta love profit-focused private "health" care, and its useful idiot defenders on the Right.
I'm all for testing the conventional wisdom, and when combined with my tendency to avoid medicine where it isn't necessary it appears that I should support this kind of article. But when it comes to vaccines there's a problem - antivaxxers. Regardless of the chance that one particular vaccine might not really be worth taking, it's frankly irresponsible to put out this kind of article without firm proof. Show me where the clinical trials for the vaccines went wrong and how everyone else who looked at the efficacy of the flu vaccine missed it. Otherwise... and I really hate to say this... shut up. There are people out there who will use this as ammunition in their irrational campaign against vaccines in general, and those people will get other people killed. Not just people who choose not to get themselves vaccinated for the flu, but their children, and the children of other people who for are unable to get the vaccine due to an allergy, or for whom the vaccine had no effect. Those people would normally be protected by group immunization that kept them from ever being in contact with the virus in question, but when there's a real movement in our country to avoid vaccines... well we start to slip below the threshold in some places.
We killed smallpox outright, but every vaccine since then has been prevented from achieving its final goal through the effort of anti-vax forces of one kind or another. That's the reason I have to be against this sort of article - even the chance that it might be correct isn't worth the near-certainty that it will be another blow for vaccination in general. If they had any sort of actual firm proof, it would be different, but this sort of conjecture *is* dangerous - and not to the person doing the conjecturing.
Does a line appended to your comment give your post meaning in and of itself, or only in relation to those without?
But bear in mind that if she's wrong the company's costs, on balance, will be much higher when their insured start showing up in the hospital not having gotten the vaccine. The vaccine, if it works, should be a cost saving measure for them.
It seems to me that they'd want to get this right.
(This is all subject, of course, to speculation on my part regarding the cost of the vaccine, versus the cost and likelihood of hospitalization in its absence. Though I'd point out that, if the vaccine isn't cost effective for the insurer, they could elect not to cover it regardless of its effectiveness.)
caritj.org
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Laws are horrible moral guides, moral guides make even worse laws.
You seem to be confusing the current seasonal flu with the pandemic of 1918.
They are by no stretch of the imagination comparable.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Anytime there's a controversy over vaccines or prescription drugs, there is only one thing that needs to be widely understood by everyone: pharmaceutical companies cannot make money from healthy people.
Of course they can.
Between 1900-02, the life expectancy at birth was 49.24. In 1997, the life expectancy at birth was 76.5. Statistic
Keeping your customers healthy now pays big dividends later.
Healthy people age into old age. Well, duh.
They have families. They have pets. They work longer and have more discretionary income.
That makes it worthwhile to invest in a broad spectrum of products that would have had little meaning to the industrial laborer of 1920 who was unlikely to see his fiftieth birthday.
"Words like "global pandemic" should be reserved for something more dangerous than the sniffles"
No, it shouldn't. Pandemic refers to the number of people infected and how quickly it spreads, not how deadly it is. People should fucking learn what this term means, rather than assuming it means "AMAZING DEADLY SUPER VIRUS". We should NOT redefine it to mean "SUPER DEADLY SUPER VIRUS".
Swine flue IS a pandemic. It's not super amazingly deadly, but it IS a pandemic. The paranoia is not the fault of the government. This paranoia is the fault of the dipshit idiot populous that elects idiots into the government and then ceases to think for themselves.
-1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
"Pharma doesn't make a dime from healthy people."
Well, that's a myth. Pharma makes big dollars *even* from healthy people. All you need to consider is that "cosmetics" is another name for "pharma".
"They want you in poor health, but not quite ready to die."
That's not exactly true. An overall ill society is not a society that will pay for expensive treatments. Pharma needs a healthy mixture (pun intended) of long-term ill people and healthy people to pay for the treatment; that's why you see a lot of investment on first world-low impact illnesses (when treated) like obesity, hypertension or diabetes or, the best of all, cosmetics (where the "illness" is only in the mind of the buyer) but so little on, say, malaria.
No matter how good the lobbyists for the vaccine companies are, they aren't good enough to get the government to step in and bear the liability without some government agency agreeing that there is actually something there to address.
Huh?
The US Government backstops liability for all vaccines, except where it grants outright immunity from lawsuits.
1986: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Childhood_Vaccine_Injury_Act
The liability is otherwise so big that no private insurer will touch it.
(Same thing goes for nuclear power.)
Both the USA's dept of Health and Human Services (HHS) and the European Union's Parliment have granted pharmaceutical companies immunity from lawsuits relating to H1N1 vaccines. The USA's HHS Secretary went one step further and granted immunity for all future swine flu vaccines.
I'm not sure how Europe normally handles vaccine liability, but I'm sure a /.er can fill us in.
You're right though that the WHO and CDC are driving the H1N1 vaccines.
They're so desperate to get out ahead of the flu that they're accepting calculated risks.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
"H1N1 flu is demonstrably lethal to children, healthy young adults, and people under 65 with common preexisting health conditions like asthma or HIV."
What you seem to forget is that seasonal flu -*any* year's seasonal flu, is demonstrably lethal to children, healthy young adults, and people under 65 with common preexisting health conditions like asthma or HIV.
Certainly all this issue seems to be poisoned by sensationalist press beyond repair, one way or another but, to-date, all objective measures seems to point that while H1N1 *could* have been a tragic deathly pandemia it will be no significantly worse than any other seasonal flu (and even its very highly contagious rates owes a significant percentage to the fact that it is actively seeked and diagnosed), but Pandora's box is already opened and it's in no one interest (press, pharma, government) to try to close it now.
"I'm sick and tired of seeing popular magazines make selective and incorrect use of data and invalid logic to draw incorrect conclusions that mislead the public"
That's the way the go with everything, so no surprise there.
All you have to do is look up Vaccine on Wikipedia to see some people don't like vaccines for whatever reason
It's stupid to inject yourself with something that does nothing. Especially when the thing that may not do anything for you, also has a non-zero chance of side effects that are much less pleasant than the original thing you were trying to prevent. That's a pretty good reason.
This article points out that we don't really know if the flu vaccine (any flu vaccine) does anything.
Since there is no good evidence either way, "better to be safe than sorry" can apply either way too. Which makes your heavy-handed dismissal of those questioning the flu vaccine every bit as faith based as the "freaks" you look down on with such contempt.
Meet the enemy, for he is you.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Actually, if anyone bothered to look into it, rather than listening to the media outlets, 'the swine flu' is less than half as likely to kill you as the average seasonal flu. By 'average seasonal flu' I mean take the past 50 years worth of deaths related to seasonal flus and you'll find about 0.12% of the infected people die. By contrast, 0.05% of those infected with 'the swine flu' have died.
It is a pandemic, but the flu has been a pandemic forever, as is the common cold. The media just doesn't have anything else to get our attention so this is what they exaggerate into being scary.
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