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Singer In Grocery Store Ordered To Pay Royalties
yog writes "An assistant at a grocery store in Clackmannanshire, Scotland, was ordered by the Performing Right Society (PRS) to obtain a performer's license and to pay royalties because she was informally singing popular songs while stocking groceries. The PRS later backed down and apologized. This after the same store had turned off the radio after a warning from the PRS. We have entered an era where music is no longer an art for all to enjoy, but rather a form of private property that must be regulated and taxed like alcohol. 'Music to the ears' has become 'dollars in the bank'."
What's next? Concise Oxford charging for words explained in the dictionary?
That's what this is.
The idea that fining someone for singing to themself while they work. The idea that this could be in any way the right course of action.
There's no other words/term for it.
As much as I think this kind of enforcement is ridiculous, before we try to get rid of it we should try to put it to good use: someone needs to get the scientologists to start singing top hits as part of their 'religion'. That would create a (lawyer) fight I would pay to watch.
My webcomic
It'd all work itself out if everytime someone exerted their copyright, the person they're exterting it against had a chance to go to court. And if the copyright holder fails, no more copyright. It instantly becomes public domain. The fact they can lose it would stop alot of this crap..
This has all the marks of a hoax. Even if it's not, still, consider the current media climate in which journalists don't check sources but simply reprint crap that other newspapers cover. Try it yourself...fax in a "press release" to the newspaper and then watch it appear in print the next day, unverified. I used to do that when I worked at a government office, and I was just shocked that nobody ever called my phone number to check. How many hoaxes has the press reported this year, so far?
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Capitalism? Copyright is a form of government regulation on what would otherwise be a free market. It would be more capitalist to abolish copyright.
(Disclaimer: I do not want to abolish copyright.)
You're right, I wouldn't steal a car. But if it were possible, I sure as hell would download one!
This is a logical extension of current lunatic copyright laws: the IP Barons want a cut every time anyone, anywhere, performs a song they claim to 'own'. The next step will be to require everyone to wear brain-scanners so that they can charge us every time we 'play' a song inside our heads from memory.
The whole concept of Imaginary Property leads directly to this kind of stupidity, because the very idea of being able to 'own' something which has no physical existence is quite simply insane.
She's an old f'*k that sings, hence disturbing my personal belief of finding my true love while grocery-shopping.
In the fuits section.
While testing melons.
Juicy... melons ... garrrr ...
I guess it is time to sue the music industry for putting songs in our head.
It already has. It's called rent seeking, and there's no shortage of examples. Certainly, overzealous copyright enforcement, patent trolling, and the like are examples we commonly see here, but they're by no means the only ones. Look at the ISPs that have crushed proposed municipal wifi plans before they could even get started, by bribing^Wencouraging lawmakers to pass laws against it the moment it was proposed. Another example is the desire of ISPs to charge for "all you can eat" plans while then throttling what you can actually do with them. That's the same type of behavior we're seeing here.
There are plenty of examples outside the tech sector as well. We had an article a few days ago about predatory student loan practices, and that's been studied quite a bit already. Telecom/cable companies' frequent monopoly/duopoly structure in most areas. The inability to become certified in many areas without a college degree even if you can prove your competence (benefitting, of course, colleges). The list goes on and on.
I'm not honestly sure that's not a consequence of trying to apply capitalism to a resource (information) which is naturally not scarce, and can only be made so through draconian rules and enforcement. With computers, it's not difficult at all to perfectly and quickly replicate most types of information, there's no real scarcity of it at all, only artificial, legally enforced scarcity. If I were in the business of selling nothing dressed up as something, and the only way people paid me was when they were forced to, I guess I might be tempted to overuse force too.
To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
Everyone here is going to talk about how outrageous it is for a supermarket to be charged for playing the radio, but the fact of the matter is that they use the radio to create a pleasant environment for their customers, which makes it a tool of commerce. Songwriters are the ones who get compensated for this, and rightfully so: people are using the fruits of their labor (music) to help sell merchandise. The supermarket is a business, and licensing the music is part of the cost of doing business. It has been this way for many, many years; we are not entering a new age of PRS thuggery. Without due diligence on this and other fronts, professional songwriters (who are not, by the by, a particularly wealthy lot) would not have an income. And please don't make the claim that songwriters get paid for years for 5 minutes of work, because they write far more songs that get rejected or fail commercially than are successful. It's a job, and not an easy one.
As for the woman being asked to get a license, yes, that is absurd. Probably the representative of the PRS who made the request was new and overeager to please his or her boss, or was maybe just a douchebag. Who knows. It was a truly boneheaded maneuver.
Full disclosure: I'm a songwriter and a member of a PRS. The money I make a year on songwriting could maybe buy a nice dinner. Without someone looking out for my interests, I'd make nothing.
First they took music out of the schools, Then they took the music off the radio, Now they are trying to take the music out of the mouths. I guess the only music the future kids will know is the Televison commericals, and video game music. And it is not from the Evil Big Brother, it is our rich lawyers (pronouced "Li-ars") twisting every penny out every pocket.
Copyright wouldn't exist but hellish drm would. Also you could argue it is capitalism that is making copyright evil. You could argue that copyright exists because money made it happen in a capitalist society. .... .... that's all I got.
Courts are also a form of government regulation. Without them, you couldn't have contracts. Sounds like fun capitalism to me, not having contracts...
"It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
Just for this, I'm gonna download TWICE as many mp3 tonight to show those corporate FAT CATS they can't push around the little guy!
Yes, she was ordered to pay royalties. However, shortly afterward, the company sent her flowers, and issued a formal apology (ie, they realized they went *way* too far).
and I quote the article...
"In a note attached to a large bouquet of flowers they said: "We're very sorry we made a big mistake. We hear you have a lovely singing voice and we wish you good luck." "
Capitalism? Copyright is a form of government regulation on what would otherwise be a free market. It would be more capitalist to abolish copyright.
What's not capitalist about it? It's treating ideas and expression as a form of capital. It would be very un-capitalist not to exploit that for gain.
... and then they built the supercollider.
Capitalism? Copyright is a form of government regulation on what would otherwise be a free market. It would be more capitalist to abolish copyright.
What's not capitalist about it? It's treating ideas and expression as a form of capital. It would be very un-capitalist not to exploit that for gain.
He's saying Copyright is not a feature of Free Markets. He's just confusing Capitalism with Free Markets, and they don't require each other.
passetspike!
...the estate of John Cage to sue everyone all the time for unlicensed performance of 4'33"
Intellectual property and physical property are not equivalent and considering the former an extension of the latter confuses the issue. Your physical property rights do not legally bar me from making a copy of your car, should I have the means, only from depriving you of yours.
In such a fantasy scenario, should we extend copyright law to cover the copying of physical objects in that manner, it would be just as much an interference with the natural tendencies of the free market, and thus less capitalist.
You're right, I wouldn't steal a car. But if it were possible, I sure as hell would download one!
Their heirs can sue everybody flying with an helicopter!
Not all regulation is created equal. Copyright law and court enforcement of contracts are not equivalent regulations. The former regulation (copyright law) interferes with the natural tendencies of the free market, rendering it less capitalist, while the latter regulation (court enforcement of contracts) does no such interfering.
You're right, I wouldn't steal a car. But if it were possible, I sure as hell would download one!
Copyright and patents existed even in the Communist block, and were enforced, too ... except the state owned most of the "Int.Prop." and a private person could not make much money out of his or her copyrights or "invention brevets" unless they already had a cosy position in the hierarchy of the state, party or one one of the professional guilds.
They are different yet related, and laws which protect physical property forbid me from borrowing it or, in the case of land, traversing it even when doing so deprives you of nothing. (E.g., if I squat in a building you aren't using, or cross your property to get to the other side, etc.) All property rights are legal fictions enforced by governments.
Markets are not "natural." They are human creations and activities, as are polities. People have been creating "governments" for longer than they have been participating in markets.
This shit doesn't and can't happen in the US.
I've been drinking
That was obvious.
Not really much difference between the current system and outright anarchy when people can sue you to death.
Replace "bastard feudal lord from hell" with "giant corporation", and "peasant" with "individual" and you will find things have really not much changed.
http://www.oed.com/subscribe/
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Creative Commons music is a good thing.
That Anonymous Coward guy is pretty annoying. Can we have the government censor him or something?
That doesn't really address my argument though. I wasn't arguing that markets are natural, but instead that free markets have natural tendencies. In other words, if we have a market that is a free market, we can expect it to behave in a certain way until it is interfered with by regulation rendering it no longer a free market. The artificiality of markets and laws is not at issue.
You're right, I wouldn't steal a car. But if it were possible, I sure as hell would download one!
and your spell checker gets a module that suggests cheaper words to use in your sentences. And it takes in account the extra tax on words the government doesn't like. You can still write what you want but some things are really costly..
You meant "awful", not "aweful". I suppose the problem was that you didn't want to pay Concise Oxford?
It requires scarcity to function.
Which is why people are knocking down houses in the USA...
e.g.
http://www.yidio.com/unsold-houses-knocked-down/id/395665281
http://realestate.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=19580208
If demand is ever satisfied, the value of the product tends to zero and therefore it is impossible to make profit or to pay the loans which make up our monetary system. This is why there will always be poverty, always be homelessness, and is of course insanity and stupidity of the highest order.
Silvio Gesell identified this particular fundamental problem (and proposed a solution) with the nature of money itself nearly 100 years ago.
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To people outside the UK, charging you for playing the radio makes no damn sense. After all, the radio station already pays for the music (if it's a standard broadcast) or *you* already pay for the music if it's satellite or CD.
The only reason people like the OP can rationalize the PRS is because they're looking at it through the lens of a culture in which it's the status quo. You see this all the time - people rationalizing or even praising elements of their particular culture that MAKE NO GODDAMN SENSE. I'm not sure whether it's done out of a sort of misplaced nationalism, a lack of imagination, or something else. But it's the only explanation I can think of for the defense of the indefensible, whether it's the PRS, the American health care system, or any other country's unique psychosis.
The irony is that for the vast majority of musicians in the UK, the burden the PRS puts on people is vastly disproportionate to the benefit received. Again, take the original poster - would s/he give up that one dinner a year in order to save business owners the incredible hassle of dealing with the PRS? Not to mention the massive amount of money the PRS must spend on enforcement, which reduces the artists' cut. If the PRS moved to a system where royalties for recording sales and broadcast were higher, and eliminated the tax on playing music in public, how much more profitable would they be?
DRM is not a problem if it's not protected by law. There's not a scheme that's been devised yet that cannot be cracked. The problem with DRM is that it is illegal to circumvent it and it has been mandated for some devices. Remove that legal protection and the content providers can add it all they like.
Intellectual property rights are just an extension of that.
The propaganda purpose of calling it 'property' is exactly to trick people into falling for that fallacy. In reality it is nothing like property, even diametrically opposed in some aspects.
Property rights do not prevent production of copies, they do not enforce scarcity and they do not interfere with other peoples ownership of their property.
Intellectual 'property' on the other hand is essentially a time limited taxation right, a monopolistic right that gives someone the governments blessing to tax and control any copies made. It enforces scarcity, and it takes away the right of everyone else to do what they wish with their property, including copying, modifying and displaying it.
Not really much difference between the current system and outright anarchy when people can sue you to death.
Replace "bastard feudal lord from hell" with "giant corporation", and "peasant" with "individual" and you will find things have really not much changed.
I love that quote - so much so I "borrowed" it for my email sig.... WHOM do I send money to? You, or /. or my local ISP?
They're vastly overcompensating for lost revenues.
Too right, how many people would say "I was going to buy that music but now I can just go and listen to the guy stacking shelves in the grocery store to sing it instead"?
How hard would it be for some enterprising radio station to only play GPL/Free/Whatever-isn't-commercial music that the PRS had no jurisdiction over...
They would quickly be the ONLY radio station that business could listen to ( freely ) and they could sue the PRS if they damaged their business by telling people they couldn't listen to the radio without a license... Since it wouldn't be true of that station. ( Better still the PRS might start to include advertising in their notices... eg, Can't listen to stations, other than Radio-GPL )
A captive market and a litigious company doing them free PR work - It doesn't get much better than that...
I wonder how long the PRS would last before the artists realized they were the real enemy...
GrpA
Enjoy science fiction? "Turing Evolved" - AI, Mecha, Androids and rail-gun battles. What more could you want?
A bar owner in Japan was ordered to pay royalties for playing the harmonica for his customers. As far as I know, the decision has stuck.
http://joi.ito.com/weblog/2006/11/10/elderly-harmoni.html
All property rights are legal fictions enforced by governments.
Real property rights often have some justification even without the legal fiction, and they have reflections in social codes.
That taking a piece of property deprives someone of that property can be demonstrated even without any law. There's a strong social code against it, even beside the law. Borrowing on the other hand is much less clear-cut which is also reflected in social code, where refusing to lend something may be frowned upon, even while the ownership is clearly established.
In the case of land there's a wide variation of law; many countries do not have any restriction against crossing someone's land, and more countries seem to be moving towards roaming rights. In some countries you're free to pick all the berries and mushrooms you want on private land; if they want it, they should indicate it through fencing or signs (which is a demonstrable economic gain; unused resources get utilized at no loss to anyone else). Again, a reflection of demonstrable natural situations valid even without the presence of law.
Intellectual 'property' on the other hand, has no such natural expression. Without the actual law there is no demonstrable harm. In fact, the law itself contradicts natural social rules as it prevents maximization of both freedom and experienced wealth, causing demonstrable harm to everyone who is prevented to perform, copy or display things that would cause nobody else harm.
Ultimately intellectual 'property' laws are counter productive and damaging to the economy. Without being founded in social codes they have no real justification and ignoring them is never 'wrong', it may even be a moral duty, even if it may be 'illegal'.
The solution to this entire issue is to download, download and download some more. Bittorrent-style, of course. Do not pay a single cent into this system anymore. And then, when your favorite band comes to town go see and support them and buy their bloody T-Shirt. Make your money go where your ears are and cut out the middlemen!
There is something called noise pollution.
In todays world we are bombarded with auditory and visual stimuli every waking moment. There is hardly any place where you can just listen to your own pulse as your heart keeps beating or even just nothing.
Unwanted "music" is classified as noise. After all, wether someone is playing a piano or pushing it down the stairs at 2am would be irrelevant to you unless you happen to be standing in the stairway or own the piano. Same thing when shopping; You are trying to remember if you need milk or eggs. You are not interested in who let the dogs out or what Jay-z is doing in Broklyn. You just want to find the damn cereal and go home.
After finally coming home from a day of intense concentration I don't turn on the radio. I don't turn on the tv. Instead I enjoy some nice, well deserved and for now completely free silence.
Try it sometime. When you finally put on your favourite track it sounds much better when your mind is clear.
One chap was phoned by the PRS and was found to be listening to music at work. He informed them he composed the piece and was the sole artist. This cut no ice, with the PRS. (I suppose he might possibly listen to illegal music, so he should be presumed guilty!)
Another incident (2008) relates to the sole owner and lone worker in a garage in Nottingham being told he had to pay £150 to listen to the radio. see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/7671215.stm
Even if I listen to my MP3 player through headphones, my company is liable to pay for a licence! Perhaps I'd have to join the smokers outside for my quick fix of some illicit Pink Floyd.
No *true* Scotsman would enforce copyrights...
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
This is a truly pitiful state of affairs. Covering other bands' songs, as long as you gave credit to the originating artist, and tribute bands used to be respected as ways of admiring an artist or group, paying homage to their art. What an ugly road the music industry has chosen to take...
Odi profanum vulgus et arceo
If that is the case, it's probably worth noticing how easily everyone took to the idea that this was the action of the PRS as a body, not some rogue worker.
If this is what they are spending their time doing - and more importantly that they feel this is acceptable - then they no longer serve any contributory, useful purpose and must be shut down. In fact all such organizations should be shut down.
and it takes away the right of everyone else to do what they wish with their property, including copying, modifying and displaying it.
False, copyright is a distribution license, you can make derivative works all day long but you can't distribute them without permission. You have a legal right under First Sale law to modify and resell things you purchase and copyright law only requires that you transfer all copies at the same time. You are ostensibly free to purchase an album, remix it and sell it, so long as you include the original album with every remixed copy, without even gaining permission. I don't know that anyone has ever tried, though. Of course, this is all as applies to US law, but it's the vision of law we push across the globe. Certainly every nation we "liberate" is forced into it, and you won't get any vaccinations from the Gates foundation without providing at least strong IP protection to pharmaceuticals.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Right now, one of the political parties in my country has taken the position that we can spend literally trillions of dollars on wars on multiple fronts, tens of billions more on a war against drugs, more on keeping a tremendous fraction of its population in prison, AND THAT DOING THIS WHILE REDUCING THE SIZE OF GOVERNMENT TO A TRIVIAL FRACTION IS POSSIBLE.
The other major party just might be addressing these problems a little, and they generally don't advocate actually reducing the government to a tiny fraction of what's needed, but they agree with the first party that they can keep up these programs WHILE EVENTUALLY AVOIDING ANY MORE DEFICIT SPENDING.
Neither is a sane, healthy position, even though one is obviously a full blown delusional psychosis and the other might marginally qualify as just a case of being neurotic enough to only function at a modest percentage of potential, if things stay routine and the stress doesn't get too bad.
It's called cognitive dissonance. A news channel simultaneously says they're the most popular source in the world, AND their viewers are a small, persecuted minority. Businesses say they want free markets but need special government protections for their business models.
That's why I dislike it when people say "in the real world" about these things. If that much of the real world really believes such self contradictory ideas, that doesn't somehow magically make them sustainable. It just means 'the real world' is headed for chaos.
Who is John Cabal?
"We have entered an era where music is no longer an art for all to enjoy"
It is if you make it yourself.
But she did sing by herself and got threatened by PRS.
No, they don't play the radio to make a pleasant environment for their customers. They play the radio to make spending a day waiting on the general public go by a little quicker and to give them something to listen to while they stock shelves or install muffler systems, or whatever else they're doing.
It's music being broadcast for all to hear. Why should the supermarket pay royalties and the guy in the car with his windows down not have to? If they're playing MUZAK or a CD, fine, they should be paying for that music, but paying for broadcast radio doesn't make sense.
If you're not getting compensated fairly, talk to the radio stations playing your music, don't go after the people listening to it. It's *broadcast* -- thrown out over the airwaves for whoever wants it.
Replace "bastard feudal lord from hell" with "giant corporation", and "peasant" with "individual" and you will find things have really not much changed.
You really haven't read much history have you? Take a look at what feudal society was like and then try and tell me with a straight face that there is not much difference between what we have today and the feudal system.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
Nobody back then was subjected to the Spice Girls. Luxury...
No good deed goes unpunished. - Avon, Blake's 7
You know, like Mick Jagger, Elton John, Paul McCartney, Madonna, Celine Dione, & various other impoverished, downtrodden performers. The nerve of that wealthy, powerful stock clerk. She got away with it too, which is why the artists' protection organizations like RIAA and MPAA need the right to just kill suspected offenders without the bother of courts and trials.
If you want your life to be different, live it differently.