China Expands Cyberspying In US, Report Says

An anonymous reader writes "A new report published by The US-China Economic and Security Review Commission wags a finger at the People's Republic of China for conducting Internet-borne espionage operations against United States high-tech companies. The paper, written by defense giant Northrop Grumman, provides a detailed case study of one such intrusion that moved large volumes of sensitive tech data out of a US firm in 2007. From a Wall Street Journal article, '"The case study is absolutely clearly controlled and directed with a specific purpose to get at defense technology in a related group of companies," said Larry Wortzel, vice chairman of the commission and a former U.S. Army attaché in China. "There's no doubt that that's state-controlled."' Wang Baodong, a spokesman for the Chinese Embassy in Washington, criticized the commission as "a product of Cold War mentality" that was "put in place to pick China to pieces." He added: "Accusations of China conducting, or 'likely conducting' as the commission's report indicates, cyberspace attacks or espionage against the US are unfounded and unwarranted.'"

Comments

Checking

[BlackSnake112]

China is just checking to see where all it it's money is going.

Re:Checking

[Wowsers]

And America is NOT spying on China?

Re:Checking

[_Sprocket_]

And America is NOT spying on China?

Does it matter? Sure - some element is going to be all outraged. After all, who isn't shocked to find gambling going on? But really this is all about pointing out that there is, indeed, an issue that needs to be addressed. And if we don't address it, we have nobody but ourselves to blame.

Re:Checking

[MightyMartian]

Of course the US is spying on China. What's amusing about this is that the Chinese government appears to think everyone else is complete simpering retards.

Re:Checking

[Blakey Rat]

Objection! Relevance!

Didn't anybody tell you as a child that two wrongs didn't make a right? Regardless of the US' spying capabilities, the issues brought up in the article are still issues.

Especially since China is spying on US companies, while the US is (probably!) only spying on Chinese government/military networks. (Which, while arguably morally wrong, is at least accepted as a fact of life.)

Let me be the first to say it:

[kheldan]

The notion that China is NOT doing the things they are accused of in this story is utter and complete bullshit .

Re:Let me be the first to say it:

[eldavojohn]

The notion that China is NOT doing the things they are accused of in this story is utter and complete bullshit .

Allow me to second this notion and also point out that the ambassador nor anyone from China will address the reports concern's item by item precisely because much of this is common knowledge. Why doesn't the ambassador deny the reports of a civilian based 'information war militia' being formed in Yongning County as the report alleges?

The phrase "Cold War Mentality" is thrown around too much these days. The problem with the original cold war mentality was several fold. One point being that the buildup of nuclear weapons was not only a threat to the countries who intended to use them against each other but a threat to the entire world. In addition the two countries did not exact harm directly upon each other but rather used countries like Vietnam, Afghanistan and Cuba as conflict points ... putting those innocents in a very dire situation for years to come. While the buildup between China and the United States is a threat to the internet and networks internal to those countries, it is unlikely these wars will be fought in puppet theaters. This is not a cold war mentality nor is the United States anywhere close to creating another Cold War scenario.

This is an issue between China and the United States, it's not a 'Cold War mentality' when you're keeping tabs on threats to you. Every country does it. The fear here is that China is dipping into/forcing a civilian base to partake in information warfare. If we were writing this report about being afraid of China for it's pool of computer science resources, we would be much more afraid of India--the largest pool of information technology.

If country A developed a militia or civilian based attack (physical or cyber) on country B, country B will address the threat. If China is claiming this report is full of lies, let them address and disprove this report instead of using vague concepts to discredit the United States. Don't hold your breath.

Re:Let me be the first to say it:

[WindBourne]

This is an issue between China and the United States,
Actually, this is NOT an issue between China and America. It is an issue between China and the west. China is not just trying to undermine America, it is the entire west. That includes all countries that are west friendly. For example, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, and India are slowly being intimidated. China is now pointing 1000's of missiles at Taiwan. In addition, they have started a new build-up of Missiles, and general military along the Indian border and is trying to lay claim to land that was decided over 100 years ago. They have started to grab water resources and are laying claim to areas of India that rich in natural resources. They did the same thing in 62 just before they attacked. This time, they have 8-10 ICBM launching subs as well as a quickly increasing number of missiles on that border.

Within the next decade, possibly 5 years, China is about to get VERY aggressive.

Re:Let me be the first to say it:

[MaWeiTao]

Let me tell you, China doesn't need those missiles pointed at Taiwan. All they need is to do is coerce Taiwan economically the same way they're doing with the US. With Taiwan's new administration there has been more openness between the two nations. For a few decades now Taiwanese have been conduction business in China, but in recent years their relationship as gotten quite a bit closer. It's already having an effect on free speech. Reporters Without Borders has downgraded Taiwan's score on freedom of the press from 37 in 07 to 59 this year. There have been concerns raised of manipulation of the press to appease China in much the same way has been happening in Hong Kong for years now.

Unfortunately, because the United Nations is so utterly worthless Taiwan has no ground to stand on since it will always do whatever China wants on this issue, which basically means Taiwan is marginalized on the international stage. Not many Taiwanese are losing sleep over this because so many are so interested in making money. And for many that means doing business in China and playing by their game.

I'm convinced that China is more determined to become an economic superpower than a military one. Having your military engaged around the world is often more trouble than it's worth in this day and age. Look at the troubles the US and Russia have faced over the last few decades. The international community would never except either nation exerting its full military might, so instead we end up with these simmering conflicts that are never fully resolved. You'll notice that outside of oppressing people in regions like Tibet and Xinjiang, China doesn't really get involved internationally.

What I think is happening is that China is using its economic success to enable it to invest in the military. Fortunately for them, they don't need to resort to military espionage on the level that the Russians did. All they have to do is buy whatever they need from Russia, and then build off of that. Unfortunately with the economic mess we have here in the US, and the rampant government spending, this places us in a position where we're even more dependent on China's economy.

The big irony is that China still needs the rest of the world far more than the rest of the world needs China. If the US, Japan and Europe decided to move all manufacturing to southeast Asia and India, China would be completely devastated. And I do think manufacturing work is slowly trickling away to nations where labor is cheaper. My point is that China won't go militaristic while it's dependent on the rest of the world. However, once the leadership decides China no longer needs us things may change dramatically.

I think a more immediate threat, however, is economic collapse in China. There are concerns about economic bubbles in China, real estate being one of them. If things go to crap, it's going to mean millions upon millions out of world. And what do nations always do when there's unrest amongst their people? They blame foreign nations and try to give people something to rally behind. That might mean starting with something like the invasion of some disputed islands in the Pacific, then on to Taiwan, and who knows what else?

I completely embrace the idea of American companies doing business in China. And I think it's a good think to have a positive relationship with China. However, I think there are too many naive people out there and they too intent on portraying China like it's this pinnacle of greatness where everything they do is somehow justifiable. Listening to the media, I'm always left with the impression that China is the model of environmentalism for us all to follow. I had to go to a Taiwanese newspaper to read that China recently relocated 10,000 people because of severe lead poisoning. The best part is that they moved these people mainly so that the offending factory could go right on polluting as it had been.

Considering that I live in America I expect my government to do what it can to ensure this nation's strength and success

I'm SHOCKED, SHOCKED!..

[mi]

I'm shocked to discover, an emerging world power is spying on the existing world power and is trying to get its weapons technology...

Seriously, this shouldn't even be news. What countermeasures are being taken is a lot more interesting — for both us and the Chinese — but should be kept just as secret for the latter reason...

there's a nice layer of deniability here

[circletimessquare]

the chinese hackers doing this are mostly motivated by ultranationalist impulses. they are self-starting, they are not command and control from the central government. if they discover any informational gems, the desire to report this to the government is also completely voluntary and desirable from an individual nationalistic point of view. if useful enough, such hackers can be brought into the fold and become a genuine command and control tool of the government, but this is at the late stage of things

of course, by completely controlling media, the government is creating a population of robots who aren't thinking critically and are ultranationalist only by default

luckily, tribalism is never stronger than principles in terms of motivations that win over others on the global stage. chinese censorship is creating a generation of cottonheads in its youth, unable to see the wider world for what it is. youth from countries with open and transparent media, and without hermetically sealed censorship of the level china employs, are meanwhile more globalistic and principled in their attitudes, rather than tribal. of course nationalistic, tribal thinking exists in all countries. but only in places like china and iran, who feel the need to control the media, does the nationalism rise to the level of blind passion: these minds simply aren't exposed to other opinions

so china has developed a wonderful machine for keeping china safe and secure from the outside. but as china begins to emerge as a player on the world stage, it is going to have to think on the world stage, not simply react from the point of view a cloistered hermit kingdom that imagines itself walled off from the wider world and its concerns

china will never lead in this world as long as it breeds children who can't think about anything except china. critical thinking only comes from exposure to alternative opinions and points of view. the chinese are raising their children to have no criticla thinking skills, to be blind cottonheaded nationalistic robots

Re:there's a nice layer of deniability here

[cabjf]

I see you read the same article I did a while back. I don't remember the magazine, but it outlined how the Chinese government basically turns a blind eye to the actions of these ultra-nationalistic hackers. Then it recruits the best for it's actual espionage programs. The author even followed his or her contact with one of these hackers who seemingly disappeared and turned up later under the employ of the regional government. I don't know that locking down the media is the only thing at work here. Look at the US from the 40's and 50's. Because of WWII, most everyone was on this lasting high of nationalistic pride, especially as our economy and power grew. I think many in China, especially those who are too young to remember the upheaval and killings of the Cultural Revolution, are under a nationalistic spell due to the growth that parts of the nation has been experiencing. Just wait until their government starts screwing things up and they'll have their own version of the 60's and 70's. If the upcoming generation is ultra-nationalistic, it follows that a future generation will rebel by questioning authority.

Northrop Grumman

[royallthefourth]

A military contractor wrote a report making a foreign power look like a military threat.

I don't doubt China is spying here, electronically and otherwise. However, it seems like a conflict of interest to have someone who would benefit from escalated military production evaluating our military needs.

Re:While Northrup Grumman Expands Cyberspying

[megamerican]

Shhhh.... People aren't supposed to know that the company crying wolf is the one who has the most to gain and is probably the one who is responsible for the alleged attacks.

US: Contractors Vie for Plum Work, Hacking for U.S. Government

And the race to develop weapons that defend against, or initiate, computer attacks has given rise to thousands of “hacker soldiers” within the Pentagon who can blend the new capabilities into the nation’s war planning.

Nearly all of the largest military companies — including Northrop Grumman, General Dynamics, Lockheed Martin and Raytheon — have major cyber contracts with the military and intelligence agencies.

Daniel D. Allen, who oversees work on intelligence systems for Northrop Grumman, estimated that federal spending on computer security now totals $10 billion each year, including classified programs. That is just a fraction of the government’s spending on weapons systems. But industry officials expect it to rise rapidly.

The military contractors are now in the enviable position of turning what they learned out of necessity — protecting the sensitive Pentagon data that sits on their own computers — into a lucrative business that could replace some of the revenue lost from cancellations of conventional weapons systems.

Domestic Spying, Inc.

http://www.corpwatch.org/section.php?id=11

Why China is Blocked

[CodeBuster]

This report demonstrates precisely why many companies, particularly those with no direct overseas connections, black hole the entire IP ranges of countries like China, Russia, and others. While this does not entirely prevent attacks originating in those countries it does put one more roadblock in the way of any would be attackers (i.e. they must first compromise some other US host before launching their attack through that host). According to the report linked in the TFA, the attackers were able to RDP into company computers directly from China...doh!

This happened at my company...

[Anonymous Coward]

I worked in Nuclear security, and a Chinese programmer before I was hired ran off with the source code to our nuclear security system and went back to China with it. It is happening.

And we fund such activity via lopsided trade

[Tablizer]

go figure. It's like over-feeding a pet until it's large enough to eat you, and then complaining that it's eating you.

i have been to china

[circletimessquare]

even the most skeptical about the government's censorship excesses are still completely nationalistic. for example: it is not questioned, in the least, that tibet is part of china

with a straight face, tell me a chinese director could make a "dances with wolves" style movie about chinese troops in tibet, and that such a movie would as widely praised and be as popular with chinese citizens as the real "dances with wolves" was with americans

100% correct

[circletimessquare]

and, in hawaii, i can stand on a street corner and say so. i can go on a website and say hawaii should be independent. no us official will punish me. in fact, if a us official tried to punish me for expressing my political opinion, that official in turn could be punished, sued, even possibly charged with a crime. would that be true of the beijing official who cracked down on the tibetan's expression of political opinion?

i can make a movie about the injustice of hawaii being part of the usa. i can create a political party to that effect. on the mainland usa, i can view said party's literature, i can agree with it, openly, and i can even give that cause money. can a resident of shanghai do that?

http://www.freehawaii.org/
http://freehawaii.blogspot.com/
http://www.hawaiiankingdom.info/

where are those servers located?

they are located in the usa

they are freely allowed to run by the us government

can you say any of those things about what tibetans can do?

a better allegory would be if you had used puerto rico rather than hawaii as an example. puerto rico is not a state of the usa. puerot ricans can not vote for american president. yet in puerto rico, votes continue to come up, and PUERTO RICANS (not washington dc) continue to decide to be part of the usa as a commonwealth by a vast majority rather than be an independent country (they do this for the generous financial reasons of this commonwealth situation)

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/11/15/us/puerto-rico-votes-to-retain-status-as-commonwealth.html

By choosing to maintain the commonwealth status that has been in place here for more than 40 years, Puerto Ricans made it clear that they prefer "the best of two worlds," in the words of a pro-commonwealth campaign slogan, to the prospect of more intimate ties with the United States. By an overwhelming margin, they also rejected independence, the third option that had been offered to them in the nonbinding vote today.

do you really think any of that would be true for tibet and tibetans? if tibetans could vote like puerto ricans, what would tibetans choose?

china uses tanks and coercion, the us uses votes and consensus

so do you really believe your comparison between tibet and hawaii is valid in any way whatsoever?