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Chinese To Supply 600 MW Wind Farm In Texas
Hugh Pickens sends in a Wall Street Journal report that Chinese banks will provide $1.5B to a consortium of Chinese and American companies to build a 600-megawatt wind farm in West Texas, using turbines made in China. The wind farm will be built on 36,000 acres, and will use 240 2.5-megawatt turbines, providing enough power to meet the electrical needs of around 150,000 American homes. The project will be the first instance of a Chinese manufacturer exporting wind turbines to the United States. China aims to be the front-runner in wind- and solar-power generation "The Obama administration is hoping a shift to renewable energy will inject new life into the US manufacturing base and provide high-paying jobs, making up for losses in other sectors. But while the US has poured money into renewable energy through tax credits and other subsidies, China has positioned itself to reap many of the benefits by ramping up its export machine."
They're making money and destroying a rival.
What with all the rest of the cheap Chinese shit we Americans buy every day, what's the big deal with buying some more cheap shit to generate our electricity?
Hey, cheaper turbines making cheap electricity. We're preserving the American Way of Life.
I hope that the Chinese exports to the US do not mean the USA loses all control of the technology behind the venture.
Who knows...the Chinese could well end up controlling everything we rely on. This could be a backdoor entry!
I thought those huge blades were very difficult to manufacture and transport. I know for something this expensive they can customize a barge and do something special at the port, but I'm surprised this didn't give local producers an edge. And while I considered myself knowledgeable about the waking dragon, I'm somewhat surprised that they have the manufacturing chops to produce something this "high tech". I guess it's another feather in their hat that their businessmen can arrange this sort of deal. With Texas no less.
Come ON people! Get it together!
I hate how articles talking about renewable energy never take into account the capacity factor of the production. Wind is about 30% or so, so the real average output will be more like 200 MW, unlike a nuclear or other plant with a capacity factor of 90+%. Yet still, they will be compared on their MAX output, not the AVERAGE.
Which part of $1.5B isn't beneficial? Their banks collect interest and their manufacturers make sales.
Meanwhile, 36K acres to power 150K homes? Doesn't a nice nuclear plant only need 100 acres or so to provide power that same number?
You're right, of course.
Losing manufacturing to China is probably the largest problem we face as a country. Especially in fields of advanced manufacturing, it is strategically important to maintain a strong lead in the U.S.
Some have said that we are moving away from a foundation of manufacturing and towards one of information management and service-oriented business. This is a truly horrifying prospect as both depend on a constant influx of *manufacturing* jobs to create demand for these new industries. Losing manufacturing to other countries means losing independence and self-sufficiency. We can't clean each other's pools forever.
The other problem, though, is that China can undercut our labor by a huge amount. It used to be that the Japanese were saying Americans were lazy and overpaid. It took the Chinese and Indians to prove it. So even if we were to begin another "Buy American" program, we would still be at a disadvantage to overseas customers who would simply choose the cheaper Chinese products over the expensive American products.
We are in a race to the bottom, and if we are to pull ourselves out of this death spiral it will be necessary to look to other failed states for examples of what not to do. No empire in its death throes has ever been able to save itself. England is doing a good job of coming back, but their once vast empire is now just a small collection of rainy islands in the North Atlantic.
...using turbines made in China...
Sigh...I knew the artificial inequities in trade - that is, the artificial difference in the cost of living and thus the wages you can get away with paying, the artificial differences in the cost of regulation, and the way the Chinese manipulate their currency to ensure they maintain a preeminent trade position - would result in the much-ballyhooed "green jobs" going to China.
Am I the only person in America who sees a horribly bleak future for our children because of inequitable free trade and trickle-down economics? The latter only encourages our top economic tier to seek the margins the former provides, eliminating patriotism (and ethics, morality, honor, and even the public displays of religion - but that is another rant entirely) from the equation.
Unless something changes, I don't think America has anywhere to go but down...for 90% of us, anyway.
Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
We give them information about missile technology they give us information on wind mills.
Sounds fair to me.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/oct/15/inside-the-ring-2059116/
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
The summary is wrong.
It should say China is lending *another 1.5 billion on top of the 1400 billion they've already loaned us for bailouts - just like Mr. Potter did in It's A Wonderful Life. First loan the money, then raise the interest, then take over.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
They aren't being "generous"....IT'S A TRAP!
They're suppressing competition by undercutting prices. This is easy to do if you've got a low cost labor pool and government backing (both overt in the form of subsidies and covert in the form of silent ownership by senior Chinese government officials). All the better that you can seek (and probably get) tax breaks from the government of the very country who's industry you're looking to hobble with your low prices.
That said, there's nothing wrong with buying Chinese generators if they meet quality and price requirements. But I think this is a case where the US government has lost sight of the football here. Assisting a foreign power with the task of gutting an industry that was pioneered in the US and that may be important in future green energy markets around the world seems extremely foolish and short sighted.
Works great for one two three months but false apart after the first rainfall. Kind of the same way the clothes made in China last.
Athiesm is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.
Wait a minute... You can arbitrarily raise the interest rate on Treasury Notes!? Woo hoo! I'm gonna buy a whole mess of 'em and raise the rate to 3,000%, compounded minutely! Suck it, Uncle Sam!
$comment =~ s/($verb)\s+($noun)/IN SOVIET RUSSIA, $2 $1s YOU!/g;
Of course, it's because a developer in Texas can just buy the land and build a wind farm.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/18/weekinreview/18galbraith.html?_r=3
The irony is quite telling -- environmental regulations making it harder to build a renewable energy source. The most telling part of this (and recall that the New York Times was not a particular fan of this TX governor):
That is, measured purely by results, the track record of the state that doesn't give a shit is miles ahead of the state that makes a big complicated deal about caring.
[ Aside: I'm not against environmental regulation by any means. At the very minimum, however, we ought to insist that the benefits a cleaner environment outweigh the costs of regulation. In cases like this where it seems like the regulations are actually counterproductive to the goals, well then the costs are truly wasted.]
Nope.
First, losing parts of manufacturing to nations that free trade and have free money is NOT an issue. The money values change and then things will straighten up. China is not doing that. They have their money pegged to ours AND have trade barriers against the vast majority of goods.
Second, this deal is going through FINANCED MOSTLY BY AMERICAN AND TEXAN GOV. The Chinese got in on a small amount of financing on this.
Third, the Chinese plants are WELL KNOWN FOR BEING HORRIBLE. THey break down ALL THE TIME. There are American made plants that are great quality. Likewise, multiple companies out of EU as well. Sadly, GE makes theirs in China. But these 3rd party parts are PURE JUNK.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
The thing is, with electricity generation you have something known as "baseline demand" which you can think of as a water table or the level of the sea a low tide.
You absolutely HAVE to have this generating capacity 24/365, no if's, but's or maybe's.
The problem with wind (and solar, and wave, etc) is that generating capacity can be anywhere from zero on up, if there is no wind, or even just light winds, generating capacity is effectively zero.
What this means is that if you are an electricity grid planner, it doesn't matter how much theoretical wind turbine generating capacity you have, NONE of it is applicable to your baseline demand.
This means the only things that you can use for baseline demand are coal powered, oil powered, nuke powered or hydro powered "traditional" generating stations.
The nature of "traditional" power stations is such that like the car doing 60mph down the freeway, there is a fair bit more power on tap, 24/365, so in fact, due to the nature of grid demand, by definition, the "traditional" power stations that are REQUIRED to meet baseline capacity can, in 99.9% of cases, ALSO supply peak demand (think of this as high tide).
So, the ONLY thing you can use wind power for, assuming the wind is blowing, is peak demand.
Now that you can only use it for peak demand, and given that you have an electrical grid, the only time you will ACTUALLY use one power source over another is if one is CHEAPER per giga-watt-hour than another.
Fact is, wind power loses out here too, UNLESS you heavily subsidise it, and that is no longer a level playing field.
The grid itself is also a problem, although a high tension grid can transfer useful power 1,000 miles, when you start talking about reasonable losses and efficiency in the grid, you are down to 250 miles, so it is not like you can put offshore wind farms *here* and connect them via the grid to a demand *here* 1,200 miles away, even with the wind power subsidies, it still does not make economic sense.
All you have to remember, is this.
The purpose of a wind turbine manufacturer is to sell wind turbines.
They really could not care one way or another if the installed turbines make economic sense on a level playing field.
http://slashdot.org/~GuyFawkes/journal
This is another great example of why giving money or tax breaks to the biggest corporations is no longer a winning strategy to promote job growth. The multi-national corps have a world-wide market to pull labor from and are only forced to buy local labor for a few on-site jobs. This is why I believe they should stop ALL money going to huge multi-national corps (who have their own R&D money anyway) and focus on getting micro-loans to smaller businesses who can't offshore their work as easily. Start preferring the little guy trying to start something on a local corner by his house instead of a corporation that really has no home or loyalty whatsoever.
I thought Obama wasn't going to fall into this trap of giving money to huge corps who are simply going buy cheap foreign labor. I guess I was wrong.
Welcome to the country of whiners. Everyone here in the U.S. is all for solving problems unless it is going to inconvenience them for a half second.
I live in west Texas, and I would have been one of the first posters here on my phone if I hadn't been about to get a root canal. Yes it sucked, but that's beside the point.
WHY DON'T WE GET SOME DAMN POWER LINES FIRST!!!! I am so sick of driving around seeing all these turbines just sitting there idle on windy days because we don't have the transmission lines to get the energy out of here. Amarillo is like the third windiest city in the united states (and no Chicago isn't above us). Funny thing is informed people here know that wind power isn't our cure all, it's just a political football, and we it at the moment.
1. We don't have transmission lines
2. Even here we have calm days
3. T Boone is like the most despised person in West Texas. There are what I think to be a lot of conspiracy theories about him here about him trying to steal all of our water, and using wind power as a conduit to do that. There is some anecdotal evidence to support the conspiracy theories, so it's hard to say that they are 100 percent false. What I do believe to be true is that he wants wind power to be huge because he could sell a crap ton of natural gas to generate electricity when the wind isn't blowing.
Then I would suggest making sure you are part of the 10%
Me, I'm American in the sense that I view the American people to be my people.
I think it is wrong for some to exploit absolutely artificial differences nation to nation in the cost of the essentials of survival - food, housing, medical care, utilities - by transplanting their manufacturing plants and service centers to those cheaper nations so that they can pay lower wages vis-a-vis America's solely to further enrich themselves faster than they could in America.
That costs America jobs and is bringing great harm to my fellow Americans. Further, I would expect the average citizen of all nations to have precisely the same perspective regarding protecting their fellow countrymen.
But it is not the "average" citizen of any country who is being so tremendously enriched by inequitable free trade, now is it?
I have a difficult time accepting that I should seek to be "among the 10%" and take joy in counting my riches while watching my fellow Americans slide into poverty. I may not be religious, but I still don't believe in abusing my fellow human beings just to satiate my greed.
Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
You can't just arbitrarily change the rates but, if you're big enough, you can set yourself up so that your borrower is completely dependent on your line of credit to maintain their lifestyle. Then (assuming that your lifestyle isn't somehow mutually dependent on the lifestyle of the entity borrowing from you), you can stop loaning them $$ unless they agree to higher rates.
If China wasn't still largely dependent on us being gluttons, they would probably like to cut us off altogether.
This move, however, seems to be mutually beneficial. We get stronger through renewable power (although I'd still rather see nukes than wind) and they get $$ and a chance to sell hardware. Seems like a good move all the way around.
He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
Repeat after me:
There is not a fixed amount of wealth in the world.
China getting richer doesn't automatically mean that the US gets poorer.
Because "making sure you're in the top 10%" is something you have total control over. It's not like the circumstances of your birth could possibly have anything to do with it. Here's a news flash: some substantial portion of the US wasn't born with silver spoons in their mouth. Their parents don't have enough money to send them to college, and in the absence of "government bailouts", it's all but impossible to afford to go on your own. How are people in this situation supposed to just make sure there in the top 10%? To say nothing of the fact that the top 10% is, well 10%. So you're perfectly ok with the idea that 90% of the population is going to spiral into poverty. Nice.
I thought a lot of this push by the Obama administration et al was to put US citizen to work and boost OUR economy, not China...why is our government not pushing for all aspects of the alternative energy initiatives they are promoting to be done in the US? Where are the tax credits and incentives to US companies (established and especially startups) for developing and manufacturing in the US and employing US citizens? During the election campaigns, I recall hearing that the move to clean/green energy sources wasn't JUST for the health of the environment, but also for generating new jobs and industries for the US.
I know China technically owns a lot of the US at this time, but, c'mon no one has been annexed yet, and this is not helping US citizens as much as home grown/developed/manufactured solutions would be...
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Years ago I saw a documentary about a village on the Russian-Chinese border. The Russian farmers all were sitting around in the local bar all day drinking vodka and bitching about the Chinese traders making more money than they did. It never occurred to them that they could make the same amount of money if they were willing to actually work 14 hours a day in their own small business.
The Russians had 70 years of communism as an excuse for not knowing about making your own way in the world without expecting a handout. I wonder what excuse people in the US have.
In what way is that fair?
Well, from the viewpoint of world markets: if the Chinese entrepreneur can do the job better and cheaper, why should I (as a hypothetical third party) buy gizmos from the EU/US? Just because Americans are per se more worthy of a job than a Chinese person with the same skills?
From the viewpoint of the EU/US: The Chinese pay a rather high price for "sucking our jeerbs" with a cheap currency. In order to keep their currency low, they hold trillions in treasury bills, (1) foregoing better returns in other assets, (2) risking their investment in case of USD inflation or USD devaluation, (3) keeping their people worse-off, as imports are more expensive than they would be otherwise, so they have to use crappy Chinese gizmos and eat crappy Chinese food even if they don't want to.
Which part of $1.5B isn't beneficial? Their banks collect interest and their manufacturers make sales.
Meanwhile, 36K acres to power 150K homes? Doesn't a nice nuclear plant only need 100 acres or so to provide power that same number?
In you nuclear plant scenario are they mining and refining the necessary materials to power that plant on that 100 acres as well? What about the coolant?
Because we're idiots. Energy production is the next real economic driver, and whoever can produce it will become the next oil-rich nation. The US needs to focus on how to solve its own energy needs and how to sell energy to the rest of the world, which is only going to become more and more hungry for it. Moreover, it needs a geographically unique solution to energy production in order to compete, because technology, information, and talent are geographically independent in the 21st century. We have a lot of land, so solar and wind seem like something we can do that a lot of other people can't. Whatever we end up doing, if the US doesn't start producing something of value soon, it will quickly become the most irrelevant first-world nation on the planet (at least while it remains first-world). This absurd idea that we can sell our amazing business and financial management services to the rest of the world forever is going to kill us just as soon they realize that we aren't especially good at it.
The only thing that Mr. Horse likes are rubber walrus protectors.
10: PRINT "Everything old is new again."
20: GOTO 10