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Murderer With "Aggression Genes" Gets Reduced Sentence

Noiser writes "New Scientist reports: 'In 2007, Abdelmalek Bayout admitted to stabbing and killing a man and received a sentence of 9 years and 2 months. An appeal court judge in Trieste, Italy, cut Bayout's sentence by a year after finding out he has gene variants linked to aggression.'"

22 of 507 comments (clear)

  1. Whoa by mewsenews · · Score: 4, Funny

    Maybe I wouldn't have lost my job if I could have proven I have a laziness gene.

    1. Re:Whoa by camperdave · · Score: 4, Funny

      I tried doing that once, but it was too hard and I was up late the night before.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
  2. Where's the... by Malc · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... personal responsibility? Controlling our behaviour is one of the things that differentiates us from animals.

    1. Re:Where's the... by CecilPL · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes. I hold both these beliefs. The justice system is not about blame, it's about keeping criminals safe from society and (in my mind) rehabilitating them.

      You would never blame a computer for a programmer's error, but you would try to fix the bugs, and if there was a dangerous bug you couldn't fix you wouldn't use that computer.

    2. Re:Where's the... by slim · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Is personal responsibility compatible with atheism? Before you break out the troll mods, I ask this in seriousness. If we are nothing more than a chemical being, then where does personal responsibility come into play?

      How is this train of thought any different for a theist? "If God's creations, enacting his will, then where does personal responsibility come into play?"

      But if you go down that 'lack of free will' route, then crime was predestined, this subsequent capture was predestined, the judge was predestined to set that particular sentence too, and everything about the whole world is basically pointless.

      So it's best to assume free will exists for practical purposes. Save the metaphysics for those insomniac nights (or take a philosophy degree).

    3. Re:Where's the... by DahGhostfacedFiddlah · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Is personal responsibility compatible with atheism?

      Maybe not. That's not just an atheistic question though - it goes right to the basis of free will.

      However, we can accept for the sake of argument that we're all just clockwork beings with no more control of our destiny than a computer program. My programming is telling me that if I am going to continue to achieve my primary objectives (shorthanded as "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness"), then dangers to those primary objects (including violent criminals) must be neutralized. This guy's genes may be an excuse, and an explanation for his actions. However, that certainly doesn't make him any less dangerous.

      The only way I'd want him to get less time on the basis of his "aggressive genes" is if he were to undergo a chemical or genetic treatment that reduces the effects of those genes.

    4. Re:Where's the... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Personal responsibility is a pure fiction in a deterministic universe.

      Except that quantum mechanics implies that we are not in a deterministic universe. Replay the same actions twice and you won't necessarily get the same outcome.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    5. Re:Where's the... by sjames · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Doesn't that make the punitive aspects of the prison system (which have not been demonstrated to serve any rehabilitative goal) unconscionable?

    6. Re:Where's the... by BarryJacobsen · · Score: 4, Funny

      Controlling our behaviour is one of the things that differentiates us from animals.

      Says who?

      By the way, you may be surprised to learn that humans are animals. We're apes, more specifically.

      Get your logic away from me you damned dirty ape!

    7. Re:Where's the... by hannson · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How about extending the sentence? Given his gene pool he's likely to kill again. See, this door opens both ways.

    8. Re:Where's the... by causality · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And before someone else points it out, yes I meant "keeping society safe from criminals". First cup of coffee, yadda yadda.

      If this really is genetic, wouldn't that be an argument for the death penalty as a method of selecting against that gene? Seems to me that giving such a light sentence is counterproductive here, if in fact it is genetic.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    9. Re:Where's the... by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I hold similar beliefs, and to me, the punitive aspects of prison should only be as required to a) be a deterrence, b) serve as a lesson (as in you have to feel punished so you understand what you did is bad) and c) symbolically represent atonement to society. the latter part is really necessary because then the criminal can feel they deserved their punishment and got better from it, but also have the society consider someone who has finished his sentence as a new person.

      Unfortunately, too many people feel that legal punishment is a means to avenge the victim. This is cruel, wasteful and essentially inefficient. Demand punishments as light as possible to deter: this will empty prisons, be less costly, and make for a more balanced society.

    10. Re:Where's the... by debrain · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yes. I hold both these beliefs. The justice system is not about blame, it's about keeping criminals safe from society and (in my mind) rehabilitating them.

      The U.S. justice system is founded on the monastery model of repentance. See: Michael Foucault, "Discipline & Punish". The modern-day U.S. prison system is an industrial model that seeks taxpayer rent in exchange for effectively perpetual incarceration for anything that may be classified in the public's eyes as a crime. (See: Ann Krueger's paper on "rent seeking").

      You would be very hard pressed to find anyone conscious of what the system is who would describe the prison system as something that in any way rehabilitates. In the criminal justice industry (lawyers, police, judges, etc.) often it's called "criminal college": where one learns the trade and networks. The prison system stigmatizes and ostracizes - it makes travel, finding a job, getting education all more difficult; it has no benefit for prisoners (in my opinion, and according to the three federal court judges I've asked this very question of). It also has questionable benefit or society - but that's a bigger question.

      You would never blame a computer for a programmer's error, but you would try to fix the bugs, and if there was a dangerous bug you couldn't fix you wouldn't use that computer.

      I agree. The prison system necessarily presumes culpability - i.e. that the criminal act was conducted of one's own free will. If it were otherwise the prison system would simply be segregation of those whose relationship with society is unacceptable because of factors they are unable to change - their genetics and/or environment, and our prison system would be analogous to apartheid.

      There is some persuasive evidence that many crimes including aggression, theft, and abuse can all be linked to neurological/physiological traits. Unfortunately, it appears the NIH has little motivation to study neurological conditions giving rise to choice, as a result of their choice of head.

      Alas, the barbaric industrial prison complex will continue. But make no mistake, it's barbaric.
       

    11. Re:Where's the... by ceoyoyo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Agreed. Anyone who mounts a "my genes made me do it" defence should realize that their genes are, for now, immutable and so they are effectively claiming that they cannot be successfully rehabilitated and must be monitored or otherwise controlled for the rest of their lives.

  3. Backwards? by Sefert · · Score: 5, Insightful

    By that logic, isn't he more dangerous, and therefore should get a longer sentence? (Until a gene therapy solution comes out, anyway).

    1. Re:Backwards? by slim · · Score: 5, Insightful

      By that logic, isn't he more dangerous, and therefore should get a longer sentence?

      Only if the purpose of imprisonment is to keep dangerous people off the street.

      Finding a consensus on the purpose of imprisonment is pretty much impossible.

    2. Re:Backwards? by slim · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're confusing your own conviction, with a consensus.

      Truly, there is no consensus, and there probably never will be.

  4. Backwards? by rotide · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Seems a little bit backwards there.

    If I'm actually genetically predisposed to violence, keeping me in society might not be the best course of action.

    Seems to me, those that are _not_ predisposed to violence have a better chance of rehabilitating than those that aren't. Shouldn't they need less time in the slammer to rehabilitate?

    Predisposed to violence = more time in?

    Not Predisposed = less time in?

  5. Ah... do you smell that? by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's the smell of free will going out the window, courtesy of people thinking that gene==unable to overcome that impulse. And with free will out the window, there's no liability. And with no liability... well, the court system we have is completely unworkable.

    I was wondering when that issue was going to crop up. Thankfully, Italy seems bound to test just how much of a disaster that road will be.

    The only solution to this is to ignore genetic predisposition when judging a convicted criminal.

    Or, to put it differently: we have no choice but to believe in free will. Our society depends on it.

    --
    Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
  6. Why can it only be one? by crmarvin42 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Prisons serve all three roles. Their existance is ment to be a deterrent to those that have not broken the law, punishment for those that have already broken the law, and protection of the rest of society from those who've demonstrated a willingness to break the law. The nature of the crime will effect to what extent the sentencing is intended to act as a punshment or protective role.

    Sentencing of Blue and White colar criminals are going to be aimed at punishment and a warning to others that may be tempted to perpetrate similar acts (embezlement, breaking and entering, etc.). The ancillary effects of incarceration (loss of job, being ostrasized by friends/family, difficulty finding a job post incarceration) are as much part of the punishement as the actuall time spent in prison.

    The sentencing of violent offenders is going to be targeted more at punishing the perpetrator and protecting the innocent. That's why they tend to have longer sentences and are locked up in higher security facilities than their blue collar compatriots. Rehabilitation is more important, but less successful with certain groups of violent criminals and thus they serve longer sentences and are occationally euthanized by the state (depending on where they are incarcerated).

    The death penalty is the ultimate in both punishment of the criminal and protection of society, and IMO not to be used lightly. It should never be used for those that have not proven themselves to be violently dangerous to the rest of society (ie tax fraud doesn't deserve a needle, but repeated homocides does).

    --
    Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.-Oscar Wilde
  7. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  8. Re:I get your point by be951 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yeah I mean, really, don't we want to do the opposite? Logically, isn't someone with an "aggression gene" probably going to be more likely to be a repeat offender?