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Apple Not Disabling OS X Atom Support After All
bonch writes "Contrary to previous reports, Atom chip support is working fine in the latest 10C535 build of OS X 10.6.2. Apple's EULA still states that OS X is licensed to run only on Apple hardware, but it looks like OSX86 hackers can breathe easy ... for now."
WOLF! WOLF!
...it looks like OSX86 hackers can breathe easy ... for now.
Translation: I know that yesterday's story that Apple intentionally disabled Atom processors from working for OSX was completely wrong but I'm going to imply, in an ominous way, that Apple will probably do what they didn't do (which we incorrectly said they did do) because, hey, that's sensational and sensationalism sells baby!!
Sorry, but it would be really nice if summaries tried to keep the editorializing to a minimum. We have reader comments to add all kinds of overblown and baseless opinions. Let's keep the focus of the summary on, you know, the news for nerds, stuff that matters.
I know. I know. I must be new here...
Actually, this was some blog poster that screwed up his Hackintosh and blamed it on Apple.
I think all those Hackintoshers are also a reminder to Steve that there is a market for netbooks and non-AIO upgradable computers under 1000$.
So does that mean we're gonna see a bunch of retractions from all the people in the other thread saying how evil Apple was for disabling support for a CPU they don't even use on their OS?
From what I've read, the 1GB RAM is more a problem than the Atom CPU.
Goody! Now we can post another 500 messages arguing about whether EULAs should be enforceable or not. With luck, this time we can finally finish the argument and come to a conclusion that brings peace to all. I hope Apple and Psystar are prepared to follow the decrees and rulings of the best minds of the Slashdot community.
Don't hold your breath.
This author takes full ownership and responsibility for the unpopular opinions outlined above.
You sir win this whole discussion. There are not enough mod points in the world for you.
--> Could not find text "+5 Comment"
Though, it was with Opera, maybe I need FireFox?
I did find a +5 Comment in this thread though:
But perhaps not big enough of a market for the big guy. Perhaps he would like to sell you a 10" tablet for $1000 with a $300 profit margin than a $300 netbook with a $50 profit margin*.
*Numbers completely pulled out of the air, and not a MacBook Air, those numbers would be even higher.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
The dogcow says Moof not wolf
Anti-trust? Precisely what monopoly does Apple hold? (Other than a monopoly on nice design. :)
Ironically, the word ironically is often used incorrectly.
Look, Apple doesn't use the Atom in any products. Ergo, there's no guarantee that a shipping version of Mac OS X will support it. Since Atom is basically just a stripped-down x86, it probably will continue to run but no promises.
Just to remind everyone, Apple builds Macs. Macs are not available in every possible x86/chipset combo. Just a handful. That's one of the reasons why Macs are typically pretty reliable, but also why the average frankencomputer can't run OS X reliably.
Yes, Mac OS X is licensed in such a way that you don't have the legal right to run it on anything but an Apple-made Mac. Yes, they won't come after you with lawyers if you make a hackintosh. Yes, they will come after you if you then try to sell them (like Psystar). And yes, licenses like Apple's are restrictive.
But no, they aren't under any obligation at all to provide support for any computer other than what they expressly state on the box to be compatible and licensed. Which, in the case of Snow Leopard, is:
- Mac computer with an Intel processor
- 1GB of memory
- 5GB of available disk space
- DVD drive for installation
And all the other specs are on:
http://www.apple.com/macosx/specs.html
If your computer doesn't fit that description, you're SOL. Period. If Snow Leopard runs now on your Atom-based netbook and 10.6.2 winds up killing it, suck it up or stick to 10.6.1. So it goes.
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
Because of a license agreement with Microsoft that specified a max of 1GB of RAM and an 80GB HD (most got around that with splitting it into two or more partitions) to allow them to install Windows XP.
I'm not sure if the agreement has changed with the release of Windows 7 Starter.
It would be presumptuous to conclude that Americans have no right to know what is being done in their name
There is a big difference between these two terms. Its ok for Apple to not support hardware that is not theirs. Its another thing to go out of your way, put time and resources into not allowing other people (most of who purchased your product legitimately) to use your product.
not to listen to unsourced blogs written by someone just because they might have overheard someone talking about it in a bar somewhere sometime. Quite why this was all over the internet is anyone's guess.
Never put down to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. Or a bug in the code either works for me.
Why bother
I just wished 'anti-trust' hammers to fall upon their heads.
I just wish people would educate themselves on what constitutes a "trust" worthy of having anti-trust applied to it.
Why bother
I could see how hackintoshers demonstrate the existence of demand for those things but saying they are proof of a market Apple would be interested in would be *really* stretching it.
Apple doesn't need to join in with everyone else in the race to the bottom.
Apple has no products that use the Atom, correct? So, there was never a bug or a feature
So, what makes everyone think that Apple is even concerned about anything to do with the Atom? They're developing their software for their products. If it just so happens to work on some other hardware, it's an accident. If a build doesn't work on other hardware, it's an accident. If it works again on a subsequent build, it's an accident.
God, you people are turning a non-issue into one.
It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
That's like saying that Ubuntu is based directly on Unix, and I have seen Linux run on 12Mhz Mini Computers!
I promise, there is no way in HELL that your getting Ubuntu running on a 12Mhz Mini Computer. In fact, I'd wager that there isn't a Linux kernel that will work on an old 70's era Mini Computer (though I may be wrong).
Windows 7 is based on Windows NT, though I doubt you will be seeing Windows 7 running on a 386 with 12 MB of RAM like NT 3.5 did.
The Atom chip can't really compete with the first x86 CPU's that shipped in Mac PC's. It's close to the Core Solo found in the first Mac Mini, but the lack of out of order execution in the Atom gives the Solo a slight edge.
I would imaging for Netbook like tasks, OSX would be quite nice on Atom. Just don't try and use photoshop or possibly even iPhoto. But this has NOTHING to do with what NextStep could do on a 486, OSX will NEVER run remotely usably on a 25MHz 486 (if at all).
Sometimes the best solution is to stop wasting time looking for an easy solution.
I think all those Hackintoshers are also a reminder to Steve that there is a market for netbooks and non-AIO upgradable computers under 1000$.
Apple is making a very nice business out of being the premium computer and electronic gizmo maker. Making a sub $1,000 netbook would be like Gucci making a handbag to be sold in Walmart.
It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
Tired of seeing nerds freak out over nothing. Wow, embarrassment.
Many people would be happy to see anti-trust law applied in any case where they thought that a company was acting in a way that benefited the company more than the customers of the company.
1) All companies act in their own interests - that is the whole point! If those interests happen to coincide with the customer's then that is just a bonus. If I want a quick burger, McDonalds is going to sell be a quick burger. If I want a roast turkey dinner with all the trappings, McDonalds is going to sell a quick burger.
2) People with hackitoshes are, by definition, not Apple customers. OK, some people may go out a buy a copy of MacOSX, but I bet most people just "obtain" it or already have it.
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
Indeed
sheep.horse - does not contain information on sheep or horses.
iPod Touch is the only handheld video game system that 1. allows part-time developers to make and publish apps and 2. is sold in U.S. and European stores.
This description does not rise to any legal standard for judging a monopoly that I'm aware of. You're attempting to describe a market in such a way that no other products match the description. Contrast this with what you see, for example, in T. Penfield Jackson's Findings of Fact document in the DoJ v MS case. (Note how it is defined in terms of market power, pricing, and what the alleged monopoly holder could do with that power to the prices)...
"33. Microsoft enjoys so much power in the market for Intel-compatible PC operating systems that if it wished to exercise this power solely in terms of price, it could charge a price for Windows substantially above that which could be charged in a competitive market. Moreover, it could do so for a significant period of time without losing an unacceptable amount of business to competitors. In other words, Microsoft enjoys monopoly power in the relevant market."
I think the question still stands: Precisely what monopoly does Apple hold?
The "cue the foo posts in 3, 2, 1..." posts will commence with no subsequent foo posts in 3, 2, 1...
I know an open source game developer who builds and tests new Mac OS X releases of his cross-platform game on a Hackintosh. Since it's a rather demanding 3D game, a Mac Mini wouldn't be up for the task. Getting a Mac Pro just to compile & test your hobby open source game just seems like a waste of money.
He's got beta testers with real Macs though. It seems to work out pretty well.
Legal standards for judging a monopoly are described relative to a given country, not the worldwide market. So by considering legal standards alone, I can narrow the field to products marketed in one country. Because you mentioned United States v. Microsoft, I'll consider the United States market, composed of Nintendo DS, Sony's PSP, Apple's iPod Touch, and a few players that are collectively as insignificant as desktop Linux was a decade ago when US v. M$ was argued. Of these, Nintendo and Sony have a history of refusing all part-time developers. So if a part-time developer wants to self-publish a game for a handheld, Apple's platform is the only option.
With respect to the Jackson quote: Yes, Apple could raise the $99 annual fee for the iPhone SDK or raise the App Store's commission from 30 percent without risking developer defection to another handheld platform. That could change once Droid and Pandora come out, but until then, Apple holds market power.
I know MainStream Media pablum when I hear it... you guys are missing the real story: Apple broke Atom support to make it less likely that people would suspect their new Tablet will be running... an Atom! These guys are geniuses, that's for sure!!! (or I'm off my medication again).
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
I am an extremely cheap person and I want to develop iPhone apps
In order to assert your point, you've had to conflate Apple's competitors (Nintendo and Sony) with users of the iPhone SDK. If this were to go before a court, they would ask what Nintendo and Sony could do to compete if apple were to attempt to exercise their market power "soley in terms of price". If they raised the $99 annual fee, as you suggest, this would actually put the iPod Touch in the same market as the Nintendo and Sony platforms (mobile gaming platforms with a high barrier to entry). This cuts against your original attempt to define the relevant market so that the iPod touch stands alone.
The "cue the foo posts in 3, 2, 1..." posts will commence with no subsequent foo posts in 3, 2, 1...
Actually, this was some blog poster that screwed up his Hackintosh and blamed it on Apple.
In one line you sum up why Apple has no interest in seeing OSX become the system builder's OS of choice.
iTunes LP format is closed and you have to pay $10,000 to Apple to have them make you one! Apple are EVIL!!
Oh wait, they released the format specs and anyone can make one.
OK, they took from open source and added Grand Central Dispatch without giving back to the community! Apple are EVIL!!
Oh wait, they released the GCD sources to Darwin.
OK, they nobbled the Atom processor in the latest OS build so people can't run Mac OS on some no-name brand PC! Apple are EVIL!!
Oh wait, it was probably just a bug.
And so on, and so on...
But that $300 Netbook with the $50 profit margin will
#1 Sell ten times more than the $1000 tablet with a $300 profit margin. Thus earning $500 in profits for every ten Netbooks sold at $300 for every one $1000 Tablet sold with a $300 margin. Net sum of $200 more in profits.
#2 Raise the Apple marketshare of Mac OSX based devices.
#3 Put a lid on the Hackintosh market as a $300 Mac based Netbook is cheap enough to buy that even the stingiest of Hackintosh users can't pass up the $300 Mac OSX Netbook.
#4 Apple really needs a Netbook to compete with the PC companies who have their own Netbook.
#5 It means more iTunes sales, as well as more iPhone and iPod sales to sync up with the Mac Netbook.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
WTF? this is madness! I hate microsoft even more now.
But that $300 Netbook with the $50 profit margin will
#1 Sell ten times more than the $1000 tablet with a $300 profit margin. Thus earning $500 in profits for every ten Netbooks sold at $300 for every one $1000 Tablet sold with a $300 margin. Net sum of $200 more in profits.
I think Apple is worried people will realise they don't need a $1000 machine with a $300 profit margin. The worst case for them would be that most Mac users buy $300 netbooks instead of the expensive machines and the number of Mac users doesn't increase.
In fact for your scheme to work they'd need to sell six netbooks to make up for the loss of one tablet. Now it's quite possible that there just aren't that many PC users who would switch but for price whereas most Mac users would buy a cheaper machine if it were available. And incidentally it's worse than this - the people who want a netbook would otherwise buy a $2000+ Mac Book Air. The profit margins on that are probably a lot more than $300. If it were $500 they need to "convert" 10 PC users to compensate for every Mac user that buys a cheaper machine. This to me seems to be very unlikely. Therefore a Mac netbook is a bad idea for them, as is allowing OSX to run on regular PCs legally and without hacks.
Actually I've talked to PC notebook ODMs who have said that the whole netbook trend is a mistake for the industry - basically there's a fixed number of people buying PCs. Before netbooks they'd buy a notebook and the margins were quite high for the PC vendor. Now they buy a netbook and the margins have been cut drastically. So the netbook trend has basically cut revenues. Of course in the PC world it's even worse to not make netbooks if your competitors do so. Then instead of the reduced margin you can get on a netbook you get nothing.
Still the whole point of Apple's business model is that they can say no to products which would cause them to lose money. That includes clones, retail OSX for PCs and netbooks. Don't get me wrong, Apple will eventually make a small machine, it's just it will cost a lot more than most netbooks. Of course it'll have some features they don't have too. What they won't do is sell a $300 identikit Atom netbook, because that would compete with their high end, high margin machines.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Maybe, maybe not. You can't say for sure.
It would also cannibalise other Mac laptops, so they would lose quite a bit as well. You guys always seem to forget that.
It would also mean more support calls to Apple, more genius visits, more unhappy people. How do you put a price on that.
Try to look at the big picture for once.
But a $300 netbook will also:
#1 Be a general POS compared to most Apple hardware and tarnish their brand.
#2 Canabalize the sales of their more expensive (and higher margin) laptops.
For that matter, I can't say I agree with your points:
#1 How many of those sales will come at the price of a $300 profit laptop or tablet? If they lose 1 high profit sale for every 5 low profit sales they gain, it's a losing strategy.
#2 If they honestly cared about market share over all else they would have taken this approach a long time ago. Considering the amount of money they make I don't think they give two shits about market share in the computer space as long as sales grow by some small amount.
#3 The Hackintosh market is so small that they likely don't care about it. It wouldn't be a bump on their already small sales numbers.
#4 You assume Apple wants to compete in the race to the bottom netbook segment of the market that will likely cannibalize their macbook sales.
#5 I don't have figures, but given that iTunes is something like 75% of online music sales it's pretty obvious that more than Mac users are downloading music with it. It works on Windows as well so they don't need to move more hardware to increase music sales. The same applies to iPods. They really can't grow that market much more than they already have.
Considering that their stock is worth something like ten times what it was since Jobs came back to the company, I think he has a pretty good idea of how things should be run. If Apple manages to catch the next big wave in the tech industry and release a product that's even half as dominating as the iPod, they'll easily surpass Microsoft at the height of its power. Sure their business strategy means you won't get a cheap crappy computer running OS X, but considering you can already make your own, why do you need Apple to release one?
When was the last time you heard a rumor that Microsoft was disabling support for some line of processors on Windows?
Back when they dropped support for NT on MIPS and Alpha? :-)
In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
Riiight, because whenever a Microsoft OS BSODs, people never think "Microsoft fucked up my machine! It wasn't that driver that I just installed, it was Microsoft!"
"I'm not sure I like the fugnutish tone you used in your post!" -RogL (608926)-
WTF? this is madness! I hate microsoft even more now.
Ballmer: Madness?? THIS . IS . MICROSOFT!!!
No sig for the moment.
When was the last time you heard a rumor that Microsoft was disabling support for some line of processors on Windows? If some idiot did claim that in a blog post, he would be laughed at.
I can vaguely remember an uproar when some AMP CPUs over a certain frequency wouldn't work in some parts of Windows (SCSI driver?). Turned out that MS in a timing loop used a NOOP version of some complex opcode that took dozens of cycles on Intel CPUs, but AMD had optimized that opcode to run much faster, resulting in a divide by zero or similar.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
windows is off faster than the stickers when i buy a netbook. And no, the same model without windows was not avaiable. They probably do not get the "cheaper OEM version of their OS" if they do not install it on all of them.
it;s 1Gig and I do no care how much ram windows support, windows is off faster than the stickers when i buy a netbook. And no, the same model without windows was not avaiable. They probably do not get the "cheaper OEM version of their OS" if they do not install it on all of them. So thay are limiting hardware choices on top of steeling my money with the microsoft tax.
#4 Apple really needs a Netbook to compete with the PC companies who have their own Netbook.
Do they?
I don't think they need advice on how to run their business from slashdotters (including me).
-- Braden's law of data: All data spends some of its lifetime in an excel spreadsheet.
Given that the monitor-less, keyboard-less and mouse-less Mac mini costs twice as much as a Netbook, I would bet on the "jumbo iPod touch" scenario.
Yet my EEE PC netbook is gathering dust on a shelf, while my Mac Mini currently has an uptime of 271 days (and that was after an intentional reboot)...
In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.