openSUSE 11.2 Released

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Posted by Soulskill on Thursday November 12, 2009 @05:53AM from the new-and-shiny dept.

An anonymous reader tips news that openSUSE 11.2 has reached its official release. You can get it from their download page, or just grab the torrents (32-bit, 64-bit). "openSUSE 11.2 will come with the latest version 2.6.31 of the Linux kernel, the beating heart of every openSUSE system. The default file system of openSUSE will be switched to the new Ext4 as well. Of course, openSUSE will continue to support Ext3 and other filesystems — but on install, new partitions will automatically be designated Ext4. ... Desktops and servers can use the same kernel, but it's better to tune the kernel for the job at hand. That's why openSUSE now includes a desktop kernel specially tuned for desktop users. ... In addition to the work of the openSUSE Project in the desktop, openSUSE 11.2 includes the latest versions of the two desktop environments, KDE 4.3 and GNOME 2.28. KDE users will enjoy the new Firefox KDE integration, OpenOffice.org KDE4 integration, consistent KDE artwork and all standard applications being ported to KDE4 including KNetworkManager, Amarok, Digikam, k3b, Konversation and more."

207 comments

But... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 05:57 · Score: 0

will my wifi work *EVERYTIME* without giving me an ulcer?
1. Re:But... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 06:00 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  No (it's a Linux distro)
2. Re:But... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 06:18 · Score: 0
  
  No (it's a Linux distro)
  It's just not ready for the desktop.
3. Re:But... by Vetruvet · 2009-11-12 06:23 · Score: 1
  
  I dunno, my wifi has worked perfectly since 10.3... on 2 different laptops and 1 dektop... all three had different chip makers (Atheros, Intel, Broadcom).
4. Re:But... by Ethanol-fueled · 2009-11-12 06:24 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Suse read NTFS partitions out of the box years before Ubuntu could.
5. Re:But... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 07:05 · Score: 0
  
  good story bro
6. Re:But... by Runaway1956 · 2009-11-12 07:06 · Score: 1
  
  Suse 9.something worked out of the box for me, when Windows wouldn't. I installed a half dozen different distros, before I found a 64 bit OS that "just worked". In fact, that was the straw that broke the camel's back. I disowned Microsoft within days after purchasing my first 64 bit Opteron.
  
  --
  "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
7. Re:But... by Rip+Dick · 2009-11-12 07:07 · Score: 1
  
  Wifi is sketchy on my Toshiba Satellite. If the network requires a WEP key or anything, it just wont connect sometimes... no matter how many times I mess with the settings. I liked OpenSuse (11.1 I believe) and KDE, but it was too annoying to use daily, as I'm always changing wireless networks.
8. Re:But... by CannonballHead · 2009-11-12 07:13 · Score: 1
  
  10.1 and 10.3 and wifi worked fine for me (I actually really liked 10.3 and was excited ... until 11.0), 10.2 and 11.0 weren't so great.
9. Re:But... by Bacon+Bits · 2009-11-12 07:35 · Score: 1
  
  I have the opposite experience. Windows XP and later work out-of-the-box on my system, but OpenSUSE never has. I started with 9, and also tried 10.1, 10.2, and 11. The system typically works fine from LiveCD, giving me false hope, but installation always fails to produce what I'd call a usable system. Anything from no sound or no network to X not starting. I tend to just get frustrated and go back to Windows. It's too bad. I want to run something other than XP or Ubuntu, but those are the only systems that work well with the PC.
  
  --
  The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
10. Re:But... by oatworm · 2009-11-12 09:12 · Score: 1
  
  Sure it is. It's just not ready for the laptop.
11. Re:But... by apharmdq · 2009-11-12 09:55 · Score: 1
  
  In my experience, most Linux distributions come with wifi drivers that work for just about any machine nowadays. The main issue is the software, and often the default software is lacking for some activities. However, WICD is an excellent alternative to the default network managers, and it has always worked flawlessly for me.
  (There was an issue with hidden static networks recently, but from what I gather, that's been fixed in the latest version.)
12. Re:But... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 10:00 · Score: 0
  
  Ubuntu wasn't even around for 'years' before they enabled ntfs read by default. Dapper did it by default, and ubuntu was only about a year old then.
13. Re:But... by justthinkit · 2009-11-12 11:02 · Score: 1
  
  I liked OpenSuse (11.1 I believe)
  
  I call B.S. The average slashdotter knows his version number to 6 digits. Mine is 5.1.2600 and I've grown rather fond of it. The idea that some day I would start calling it "5.1 I believe" is repulsive.
  
  --
  I come here for the love
14. Re:But... by JSG · 2009-11-12 11:25 · Score: 0, Troll
  
  ... and yet another anecdote masquerading as data:
  One of my employees (MCSE, VCP etc etc) caused his Win7 laptop to blue screen beyond safe mode repair today. I gave him a USB key with Kubuntu - "Klepto Kangeroo" or whatever the latest is called) on it.
  Imagine my^H^Hhis surprise when the audio, WiFi and graphics all worked properly straight off.
  He had a hard time believing me that a modern Linux installer is the full thing also and it is not strange to play games or browse the interweb whilst installing an OS.
  He's not converted yet but I think the fact that my "rescue disc" looked a bit good and saved his data with a minimum of fuss has changed his impression of Linux.
15. Re:But... by oatworm · 2009-11-12 11:28 · Score: 1
  
  In all seriousness, Ubuntu's worked pretty well on my laptop, too. Wireless was a little finicky (Broadcom - ugh!), but nothing ndiswrapper couldn't fix. I will also go on record and say that I absolutely LOVE EnvyNG, which has done a fine job of addressing driver-related issues that I originally had back in the day.
  
  One other thing I first noticed about Ubuntu and Linux in general: When you plug in a USB keyboard or mouse, it doesn't take a minute for the OS to recognize it like it does in Windows. Ah... bliss.
16. Re:But... by genericpoweruser · 2009-11-12 13:24 · Score: 1
  
  5.1.2600 is the kernel version for XP Pro. OpenSUSE 11.1 is the release name, and if I'm not mistaken its kernel was 2.6.27.
  
  --
  A fool and his lamb are worth two in the bush.
17. Re:But... by V!NCENT · 2009-11-12 23:32 · Score: 1
  
  Try out a LiveCD/DVD iso. You can even put it on a USB stick with unetbootin*.
  First format the USB stick in Windows as Fat32. Then run unetbootin with admin privileges. Make sure Windows has already mounted the USB stick before you run the tool and check what the mount point is called (F:\, E:\, etc)
  Jesus...
  * http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/
  
  --
  Here be signatures
18. Re:But... by V!NCENT · 2009-11-12 23:33 · Score: 1
  
  Luckily SuSE was the only one doing it because back then NTFS support SUCKED!
  
  --
  Here be signatures
19. Re:But... by V!NCENT · 2009-11-12 23:39 · Score: 1
  
  It has better batterylife than Vista and Windows 7. You can browse the web, with flash too. You can manage and play your music and video's. You can edit video's with Kdenlive, which is about just as good as Sony Vegas, if not better. You can chat with all messenger protocols. You can import and export MS Office documents, spreadsheets and presentations (unless you are among those macro wizzards that can do raytracing with Excel ;-) ). It has a WiFi manager*, powermanagement and a next generation desktop environment/GUI. You can burn you music and videos and play them just the same... You can do all kinds of shit.
  * If your WiFi card is supported. Today Linux supports about 30% of all network cards out there fully, and 40% partialy. Check out a LiveCD iso to see if everything will work ;)
  
  --
  Here be signatures
20. Re:But... by V!NCENT · 2009-11-12 23:40 · Score: 1
  
  PS: It has multi-channel audio too, so what more can you possible want from a laptop?
  
  --
  Here be signatures
21. Re:But... by V!NCENT · 2009-11-12 23:43 · Score: 1
  
  What's on the LiveCD will be installed on your HDD. Are you sure your HDD isn't failing? If not, please considder trying out future releases of Ubuntu ;)
  
  --
  Here be signatures
22. Re:But... by V!NCENT · 2009-11-12 23:45 · Score: 1
  
  WICD should become the default backend for every Linux distro IMHO. It supports the mschapv2 protocol, which is required for most secured Windows log-in networks.
  
  --
  Here be signatures
23. Re:But... by oliderid · 2009-11-13 00:54 · Score: 1
  
  Same for me on Compaq laptop almost a year ago. I had to find non-official packages to make it run with my SuSE. It took me hours. Those packages have finally been added to the repos few months after. I don't critize nobody, I'm mean they do a great job and this is free, so what could you say? Anyway the fact is WI-FI is often difficult to install on Linux and you have to know it. Ideally you would have to document yourself on the wifi used by the laptop you plan to purchase first (a thing I never do :-)). Just like printers support few years ago. Claiming that there is no problem won't help anybody IMHO.
24. Re:But... by justthinkit · 2009-11-13 02:13 · Score: 1
  
  I was going for humor but I guess it whooshed over everyone's heads.
  
  The humor being that the person couldn't remember the version of the OS they had used, when it was the previous version to the one just released. Explaining feeble attempts at humor is like taking a straw and sucking the air out of a room. I doubt I'll be here all week.
  
  --
  I come here for the love
25. Re:But... by Down_in_the_Park · 2009-11-15 01:00 · Score: 1
  
  Come on, look at the numbers (uid) he's still learning...humor, irony, all that B.S.
  
  --
  "People who are willing to sacrifice essential freedoms for security deserve neither freedom nor security."
  
  B F
The beating heart... by CannonballHead · 2009-11-12 05:58 · Score: 3, Funny

openSUSE 11.2 will come with the latest version 2.6.31 of the Linux kernel, the beating heart of every openSUSE system.
As opposed to all those other distros, which don't use the Linux kernel as their "beating heart." :)
1. Re:The beating heart... by ZERO1ZERO · 2009-11-12 06:40 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  at least its a differentiation of Linux and Distro. As in Ubuntu is not Linux. Really? Try telling (most) Ubuntu users. When somebody on the internet claims 'their Linux i not working' I'd say the odds are good that they are running Ubuntu.
2. Re:The beating heart... by Bralkein · 2009-11-12 06:59 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  Depends if they set CONFIG_NO_HZ=y :P
3. Re:The beating heart... by Mr.+DOS · 2009-11-12 07:00 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  Yeah; the others have the tick(er)less kernel.
  --- Mr. DOS
4. Re:The beating heart... by Bralkein · 2009-11-12 07:07 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  Here on Slashdot today, not only did two people make a joke about an obscure techincal configuration option of the Linux kernel, we both made the same joke, and we made it one minute apart. This place is terrifying.
5. Re:The beating heart... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 07:09 · Score: 0
  
  Please quit signing your posts. It is considered tactless and obnoxious by most people. If you want a sig then put it in your sig block so that people can block it.
6. Re:The beating heart... by CannonballHead · 2009-11-12 07:12 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Even geeks on slashdot refer to it as "Linux" and distros are named "RedHat Linux" and "Ubuntu Linux" and "SuSE Linux."
  If you called your car a "Mercedes Car" you might be under the impression that the entire thing was called a "car" and that "Mercedes" made a "version" of it. You probably wouldn't think that the "car" was actually just the engine and all the rest was called a "distribution." :)
  And frankly, I'm fine with calling it as a whole "Linux" just like people refer to Windows as a whole as "Windows," even if it's Windows XP or Windows 2003 or Windows Vista or Windows 3.1. Most people differentiate, but not all the time.... "Windows" is the least common denominator. "Linux" is the least common denominator. :)
7. Re:The beating heart... by caluml · 2009-11-12 07:13 · Score: 1
  
  When somebody on the internet claims 'their Linux i not working' I'd say the odds are good that they are running Ubuntu.
  Rewind 10 years, and s/Ubuntu/Redhat/g
  
  --
  Get your own free personal location tracker
8. Re:The beating heart... by houghi · 2009-11-12 07:30 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Even geeks on slashdot refer to it as [...] "SuSE Linux."
  Then they must hand over their card as soon as possible. It is openSUSE or SUSE Linux Enterprise for some time now. The latter is the 'official' Novell one and is also called SUSE. openSUSE is community based where Novell is a very important part of the community.
  
  --
  Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
9. Re:The beating heart... by Gilmoure · 2009-11-12 07:35 · Score: 1
  
  OpenSUSEbsd?
  
  --
  I drank what? -- Socrates
10. Re:The beating heart... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 07:37 · Score: 0
  
  It is clear you are not Bruce, Falcon, =Smidge=, or jcr. Many others, one presumes...
11. Re:The beating heart... by Blakey+Rat · 2009-11-12 07:40 · Score: 1
  
  Most distros don't need to move gallons of blood...
  Come to think of it, what the heck is SUSE doing!?
  
  --
  Comment of the year
12. Re:The beating heart... by CannonballHead · 2009-11-12 07:41 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  I know it's openSUSE or SLES... it's actually "SUSE Linux Enterprise Server" if you want to be picky. I've used openSUSE personally and SLES at work.
  (I actually had the capitalization wrong though, I thought the U wasn't capitalized. Oh well. Learn something new...)
  But most people don't get caught up in saying exactly the right name, I don't think. Nobody calls it GNU/Linux ;) (hehe)
  Seems that most people call it by the distro name first, though, since most distros market it as such, I guess...
13. Re:The beating heart... by CannonballHead · 2009-11-12 07:59 · Score: 1
  
  Well, if they ever *gasp* upgrade their kernel, I guess they'll be doing a heart transplant...
  I knew upgrades were scary things sometimes, but...
14. Re:The beating heart... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 08:45 · Score: 0
  
  Dumbfuck morons, all of them.
  Signing your posts manually makes you look like an oldfag. It's 2009, use the fucking sig block.
15. Re:The beating heart... by JSG · 2009-11-12 11:41 · Score: 1
  
  Your caustic comment seems to imply that all distos run Linux which is a bit demeaning to *BSD or indeed any OS that is "distributed". 8)
  "latest" - pah -I have 2.6.32-rc6 on my laptop courtesy of Gentoo.
16. Re:The beating heart... by JSG · 2009-11-12 11:49 · Score: 1
  
  I think you are right - the u is und. However, few people know what SuSE actually stands for, those that do probably speak German.
  I suspect the marketeers in Novell prefer "SUSE" and have capitalized the u.
  Software und System Entwicklung
17. Re:The beating heart... by CannonballHead · 2009-11-12 11:51 · Score: 1
  
  That's what I originally figured but openSUSE and SLES titles both have it capitalized on their websites...
  I think it looks better uncapitalized. Oh well. They didn't ask me. ;)
18. Re:The beating heart... by Eil · 2009-11-12 11:55 · Score: 1
  
  1999 called, they want their argument back. (Only back then it was Red Hat.)
19. Re:The beating heart... by quickOnTheUptake · 2009-11-12 14:38 · Score: 1
  
  Almost says wikipedia:
  1992 -- S.u.S.E. founded
  1998 -- shortened to SuSE
  2001 -- released SUSE Linux Enterprise Server
  2003 -- changed the company name to SUSE (officially, no longer an acronym)
  (later in) 2003 -- acquisition announced
  
  --
  Mod points: Guaranteed to remove your sense of humor.
  Side effects may include gullibility and temporary retardation
20. Re:The beating heart... by dhammabum · 2009-11-12 15:00 · Score: 1
  
  The other distros are the undead...
  
  --
  I am not a robot. I am a unicorn.
21. Re:The beating heart... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-13 02:01 · Score: 0
  
  they have set it to ...
  #
  # Processor type and features
  #
  CONFIG_TICK_ONESHOT=y
  CONFIG_NO_HZ=y
  CONFIG_HIGH_RES_TIMERS=y
  CONFIG_GENERIC_CLOCKEVENTS_BUILD=y
22. Re:The beating heart... by wild_oscar · 2009-11-13 03:19 · Score: 1
  
  Probably because when somebody is using Linux, odds are good they're running Ubuntu (according to distro watch, for example). Ubuntu is as good as any other distro, and Canonical is making a remarkable work making the adoption of Linux work. Please, don't ruin that with elitist comments.
23. Re:The beating heart... by zoward · 2009-11-13 07:02 · Score: 1
  
  Here on Slashdot today, not only did two people make a joke about an obscure techincal configuration option of the Linux kernel, we both made the same joke, and we made it one minute apart. This place is terrifying.
  And six people who understood the joke about a tickless kernel have already modded it Funny. This place is awesome!
  
  --
  "Can't you see that everyone is buying station wagons?"
Who...cares? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 05:59 · Score: -1, Redundant

Linux is not, has never been, and will never be the desktop of 20xx. Get used to Windows, please! Thanks.
1. Re:Who...cares? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 06:01 · Score: 0
  
  Exactly. Let me know when I can buy things from the iTunes store, sync my iPod and iPhone, install a native Photoshop client, have professional video and audio editing tools, tear-free video playback, actual Blu-Ray support (not having to rip to the hard drive or use some esoteric library that only half works) and then we'll talk.
2. Re:Who...cares? by Disgruntled+Goats · 2009-11-12 06:03 · Score: -1, Flamebait
  
  Oh and saying to run things through Wine isn't going to cut it. If freetards are going to claim that I can do everything in Loonix like one can do in Windows I don't want to have to use some emulator for Windows to get things running.
3. Re:Who...cares? by mcrbids · 2009-11-12 06:07 · Score: 1, Troll
  
  Really? (typing this on my Fedora Core laptop)
  It's been my desktop for nearly 10 years...
  
  --
  I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
4. Re:Who...cares? by Disgruntled+Goats · 2009-11-12 06:09 · Score: 1
  
  WorksForMe(TM)
5. Re:Who...cares? by filesiteguy · 2009-11-12 06:18 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  It is unfortunate, however, you'll need to run Wine or VMWare or Virtualbox or Xen to get those viruses loaded and running.
  
  (I tend to think the other way: How can I run Nautilus, KTorrent, KRDC, and GMountISO in Windows.)
  
  --
  The Kai's Semi-Updated Website Thingy
6. Re:Who...cares? by Zombie+Ryushu · 2009-11-12 06:30 · Score: 0, Offtopic
  
  I don't know what hole you crawled out of, but I suggest you stay there until you have legitimate concerns.
  when I have a problem, I report it, and I actively do everything I can to fix it, I don't actively attack others sensibilities.
7. Re:Who...cares? by Disgruntled+Goats · 2009-11-12 06:59 · Score: 1
  
  (I tend to think the other way: How can I run Nautilus, KTorrent, KRDC, and GMountISO in Windows.)
  By installing KDE for Windows.
8. Re:Who...cares? by Disgruntled+Goats · 2009-11-12 07:01 · Score: -1, Flamebait
  
  I don't know what hole you crawled out of, but I suggest you stay there until you have legitimate concerns.
  So not being able to run native apps to buy from iTunes, sync my iPod and iPhone or a lack of profesional apps for doing image/video/audio editing aren't legitimate? No wonder you'll never have more than 1% of the desktop.
9. Re:Who...cares? by TheNinjaroach · 2009-11-12 07:05 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  So not being able to run native apps to buy from iTunes, sync my iPod and iPhone
  It's almost like you blame Linux for the fact your hardware vendor tries so hard to lock out 3rd party support.
  
  --
  I went to eat some animal crackers and the box said, "Do not eat if seal is broken." I opened the box and sure enough..
10. Re:Who...cares? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 07:18 · Score: 0
  
  It is unfortunate, however, you'll need to run Wine or VMWare or Virtualbox or Xen to get those viruses loaded and running.
  Of course if you want to root a machine. Most rootkits will only run on Linux, sure there are plenty of Windows rootkits nowadays but rootkits originated on (hence the ROOTkit name) and are still most actively developed on Linux.
11. Re:Who...cares? by CannonballHead · 2009-11-12 07:19 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  It's almost like you blame Linux for the fact your hardware vendor tries so hard to lock out 3rd party support.
  You're right. Some people do. Because Linux "evangelists" like to say that Linux can do everything Windows can do.. .except better, AND it's more secure, AND it's free, AND it has a GREAT community.
  MOST of which is true. It may or may not be better, it is more secure and it's free and it does have a good community (there are plenty of Windows communities as well, of course).
  But it does not do everything Windows can do, because not everything runs on Linux. And most people do not want to lose hardware that works well for them for the sake of switching to Linux. Like iPods and iPhones.
  Sure, blame Apple and not Linux for the actual hardware issue (interesting: Apple is a great company at Slashdot until it is convenient for it not to be a great company at Slashdot :) my experience, anyways)... but blame Linux fans for claiming things that either aren't true or are only true if you are more committed to using Linux than using your existing proprietary hardware. Some people care more about their existing hardware that works well and that they like than whether or not it works with Linux. And it's a perfectly valid reason, too. Doesn't mean Linux is bad, it just means some people have different priorities.
12. Re:Who...cares? by Vahokif · 2009-11-12 07:24 · Score: 1
  
  (I tend to think the other way: How can I run Nautilus, KTorrent, KRDC, and GMountISO in Windows.)
  Explorer, uTorrent, built-in remote desktop or VNC client of your choice and Daemon Tools, respectively. The issue isn't with specific software but functionality, and you aren't helping Linux by pretending that it can natively do everything Average Joe wants.
13. Re:Who...cares? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 07:45 · Score: 0
  
  Last I checked, Amarok has support for the iPod/iPhone. iTunes is still unavailable, though.
14. Re:Who...cares? by CannonballHead · 2009-11-12 08:01 · Score: 1
  
  For some i[insert word]s anyways, yes.
  Doesn't exactly look simple or easy or "better" ...
  
  If your iPod database has become corrupted (because you disconnected your device at an unfortunate point in time, because of an Amarok failure, ...)
  Heh. :)
15. Re:Who...cares? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 08:30 · Score: 0
  
  Behold, the ego of the arrogant asshole. The context of "desktop" in the original post refers to the majority of computers in use, NOT your personal choice.
16. Re:Who...cares? by selven · 2009-11-12 08:54 · Score: 1
  
  I don't see any of this "Apple is a great company" stuff at Slashdot. Most comments about it are actually complaining about DRM and the closed-source nature of Apple products. The only positive comments I ever see about it are comparing it to Windows.
17. Re:Who...cares? by Anonymous+Cowpat · 2009-11-12 09:06 · Score: 1
  
  Wine Is Not an Emulator
  
  --
  FGD 135
18. Re:Who...cares? by kimvette · 2009-11-12 09:07 · Score: 1
  
  interesting: Apple is a great company at Slashdot until it is convenient for it not to be a great company at Slashdot :)
  On the contrary: some of us think Apple is a fairly crappy company which happens to offer a few decent products (OS X, iPhone, iPod, etc.) , and it is unfortunate that Apple sometimes takes steps to cripple some products after the point of purchase (tethering/iPhone).
  
  --
  The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
19. Re:Who...cares? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 09:15 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  See now that's the problem with Linux evangelists. Some partial, hacked together, and buggy functionality is described as "supported."
  In the Linux world "supported" often means someone somewhere got some limited sort of functionality, here's a link to sourceforge, rtfm, good luck. Which gets spun by some pencil-neck geek into "It works what more could you want?"
  It's not so much that sometimes devices don't work to their full potential that bothers me. It's the bullshit amount of effort put setting people up for disappointment by saying everything works the same and better than it does on Windows. For many things its true, Linux owns. Sure. But stop fucking trumping up shit that sorta works as "supported."
20. Re:Who...cares? by CannonballHead · 2009-11-12 09:20 · Score: 1
  
  The only positive comments I ever see about it are comparing it to Windows.
  That happens quite frequently, which may be why I feel the Apple-is-cool vibe/Mac-is-better or whatever. :)
21. Re:Who...cares? by E+IS+mC(Square) · 2009-11-12 09:25 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  >> So not being able to run native apps to buy from iTunes, sync my iPod and iPhone
  
  You are saying as if it is a bad thing.
22. Re:Who...cares? by filesiteguy · 2009-11-12 09:29 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Explorer - as I use it daily in expee, Vista and Win7 - is not as well-designed as either Nautilus or Konqueror. I find it lacking on many counts.
  
  As for me "pretending that" Linux can do everything Average Joe wants, I don't. It does what I want, it works for my mother. It works for my two boys.
  
  There are things that are needed - for those I run VirtualBox:
  
  http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/2009/virtualbox_xp_vb6.jpg
  
  and can do such tasks as Visual Basic 6.0 development on XP machines. The rest can pretty much be done using FOSS under Ubuntu.
  
  --
  The Kai's Semi-Updated Website Thingy
23. Re:Who...cares? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 10:47 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  It's pretty pivotal if you own and want to sync an iPod or iPhone. Or if, for whatever reason (such as exclusive tracks) you want to buy something from iTunes.
  For some reason people have modded you insightful. Fortunately, I'll be left modded at zero.
24. Re:Who...cares? by TangoCharlie · 2009-11-12 11:10 · Score: 1
  
  I agree.
  And, IBM will never be replaced as the dominant PC manufacturer.
  
  --
  return 0; }
25. Re:Who...cares? by E+IS+mC(Square) · 2009-11-12 11:29 · Score: 1
  
  Hey, to each its own. I value my freedom to do whatever I want with devices I have paid from my hard-earned cash and stay clear from Apple products (or for that matter, any , which will lock me in).
  
  But I found parent's point backwards - just because he has locked himself into a particular system does not give him any right to cry about other systems that do not support his toys. Since when it is Linux or open source's fault that itunes/ipod/iphone are not compatible with their OS?
26. Re:Who...cares? by Kjella · 2009-11-12 11:38 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  You are saying as if it is a bad thing.
  Isolated, learning one new way to do something is an acceptable cost. But Linux is to many death by a thousand cuts when it comes to that. I dabbled with Linux for ~7 years before I finally decided to switch and there was many reasons for that. But one of them was the total lack of any familiar application, even though I was fairly convinced Linux probably had some sort of application like that (in retrospect, sometimes a doubtful conclusion) but it was always too much new. I can set off some hours to learn something new, I can't set off a month all at once to learn everything new. It was really only the early experiences with Vista that pushed me over the edge, thinking this wasn't the way forward. Now that I know how to use Linux properly I wouldn't switch back, but that wall is too tall. Not one brick individually but all of the piled on top of each other.
  
  --
  Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
27. Re:Who...cares? by cbhacking · 2009-11-12 13:37 · Score: 1
  
  Most of KDE4 has actually been ported to Windows as native binaries (using qt4, which is open-source across all platforms). http://windows.kde.org/ . Still very much a work in progress, but many things (like Kate, possibly my favorite text editor) work great. It has a simple graphical package management tool that allows you to select the KDE packages you want, update them, or uninstall them (and will automatically grab dependencies for you).
  For other Unix-y programs, I've found that the native POSIX support in NT is good enough that quite a few programs simply compile and run without a problem. You'll need to install Interix (operating environment for the POSIX subsystem of NT) and its build toolchain (GCC based, though you can use the Microsoft build tools instead if you want). You'll probably also want to grab some of the nice pre-compiled binaries (such as bash, subversion, X11R7 libraries, and gcc4) from the SUA Community folks. Lots of info on this here: http://suacommunity.com/
  In theory, you could actually compile KDE on Interix. Not sure anybody has put in the effort though; porting something that size is sure to run into hassles.
  
  --
  There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
28. Re:Who...cares? by E+IS+mC(Square) · 2009-11-12 14:25 · Score: 1
  
  Brilliant! I would not have been able to put it in a better way.
  
  Of course, Ubuntu or any other distro based on Linux has its own learning curve. And I would not (and do not) advise it to everybody.
  
  But when discussing this with /. crowd, I expect a certain level of computer-savvy-ness, and their ability to learn doing things in different ways. It is indeed a tall wall (no matter how much 'desktop ready' it may feel), but then, I set myself up in a way that I know I have a way out with Linux (i.e. not building a collection of gadgets which would not work with a central system at my home). If this includes sacrificing some toys which are 'cool', and 'hip', so be it. As long as I get my ends met with different means, and I know how to deal with the 'different' means, I am fine with it (bud would not advise it to any or every body).
29. Re:Who...cares? by Risen888 · 2009-11-12 15:16 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  You really should have bought a real mp3 player. I hope you learned something.
  
  --
  Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
30. Re:Who...cares? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 15:53 · Score: 0
  
  Totally mature CannonballHead.
  You are SO right.
31. Re:Who...cares? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-13 03:22 · Score: 0
  
  daemon tools really?
  why use a ugly hack to a driver when you can just mount the ISO directly with mounting through loopback
  or if the commandline scares you, use gmount or kde's kio slave for iso. just a google search and possibly a yum away.
  daemon tools is something you would have had to google anyway
  really now.... no need to inflict daemon tools on any other chumps out there
Finally by kimvette · 2009-11-12 05:59 · Score: 3, Informative

Finally, easy upgrades come to OpenSUSE.
sudo zypper dup !
I just had to cleanly install OpenSUSE 11.1 the other day because I was in the middle of patching 10.3 when Novell took down the repositories. I worked on the broken system for a week before making the time to reformat/reinstall. I started patching it by hand to make the 10.3 -> 11.1 dup work, but it was just too time consuming.
But anyway, I'll be running zypper dup in the next few days after demand on the servers dies down. It's about time SUSE users get a clean in-place upgrade process. :-)

--
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
1. Re:Finally by houghi · 2009-11-12 06:10 · Score: 1
  
  I also welcome it. Many people have already used it and seened to be happy with it. I will wait till 11.3 till I use it. Although by then I hope to be just using my own distri that I will be making on http://susestudio.com/
  
  --
  Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
2. Re:Finally by Macka · 2009-11-12 06:50 · Score: 1
  
  Zypper *groan* .. what the hell was wrong with yum? It pisses me off that if I am ever called on to work on a SuSE system that I can't use the knowledge and experience I have with yum and have to learn yet another fucking package manager. If they had a problem with Yum, why not just work closer with Redhat to improve it and keep the development effort/cost down for everyone. They obviously haven't learned from Unix history: that trying to be a "better" unix than everyone else by being different doesn't win you more market share, it just makes you a niche player. Commercial unix vendors fell into this trap years ago and look where it got them !
3. Re:Finally by metamatic · 2009-11-12 06:54 · Score: 1
  
  Zypper *groan* .. what the hell was wrong with yum?
  Well, for starters it's incredibly slow. I have quad-core 3GHz servers with RAID arrays that take longer to update using Yum than my 1GHz VIA C3 EPIA box does using APT.
  
  --
  GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
4. Re:Finally by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 06:56 · Score: 0
  
  zypper dup already worked in 11.1 .....
  It's working pretty well and I have updated a few systems (4) already.
5. Re:Finally by Macka · 2009-11-12 07:10 · Score: 1
  
  And you've tried zypper and it's faster? And what does quad-core have to do with anything? yum isn't multi-threaded. I have a bunch of HP Proliants at work with 2.13GHz CPUs, also with RAID and yum whizzes along quite nicely from a local repo server over NFS.
6. Re:Finally by Macka · 2009-11-12 07:13 · Score: 1
  
  I should clarify that NFS statement. Was thinking about when I do a yum localupdate ... of cause you don't need NFS to install/update from a local repo.
7. Re:Finally by metamatic · 2009-11-12 07:19 · Score: 1
  
  Yes, zypper is significantly faster.
  I mentioned quad-core and RAID to reassure readers that it couldn't be a CPU or disk speed constraint causing yum's slowness.
  I don't think I've ever seen yum do something I would describe as whizzing. I've seen it take a crap a few times, but that's probably due to RPM.
  
  --
  GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
8. Re:Finally by Macka · 2009-11-12 07:35 · Score: 1
  
  That's not justification enough for pissing off your users who have to work with multiple linux distributions. An update is something you do very infrequently, and yum not that slow that shaving a few minutes off an update is going to make a snot of difference. The important thing is whether or not it works, resolves dependencies properly and preserves changes you've made to local config files. And yum does the job very well.
  Zypper to me is a "political" move, not a technical one, and it's not going to win them any friends in industry.
  
  I've seen it take a crap a few times, but that's probably due to RPM
  Um, but SuSE are still using RPM underneath zypper, so how is that a better situation exactly?
9. Re:Finally by houghi · 2009-11-12 07:42 · Score: 1
  
  Well, then keep on using yum. It is still there.
  An old blog about the time differences: http://duncan.mac-vicar.com/blog/archives/309
  The reason they started with zypper was the problem of speed. In the beginning it was slow. Now it is seriously fast. And yet you can still use yum if you want that. It is there. The choice is yours.
  
  --
  Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
10. Re:Finally by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 07:55 · Score: 0
  
  Wins me as a friend since I don't have to use sucky yum, and you were a hater to begin with, so no loss there.
11. Re:Finally by Tarlus · 2009-11-12 08:16 · Score: 1
  
  And what does quad-core have to do with anything?
  Probably nothing, though the 2 GHz difference is pretty substantial.
  
  --
  /* No Comment */
12. Re:Finally by metamatic · 2009-11-12 08:24 · Score: 1
  
  Yum was also a political move. They could have gone with urpmi, Smart, or APT4RPM, all of which were proven parts of other RPM-based distros at the time they decided to switch to yum.
  (In fact, ideally they'd have switched to APT4RPM, and then in a later release dropped RPM in favor of dpkg, and ended up with something that actually works reliably. Unfortunately, that's never going to happen because RPM was written into LSB, RedHat would never go along with any change, and SuSE needs to stay close to RedHat for commercial reasons.)
  In a way, I agree with you that Yum's snail-like speed is not that big of a deal. I've had so much pain from SuSE's supporting-and-then-not-supporting of APT, Smart and Yum, plus the pain of YaST brokenness and the injection of Mono, that I'm in the process of decommissioning SuSE servers in favor of RHEL everywhere I need commercial Linux, even though that means using Yum. But you asked what was wrong with Yum, so I answered the question.
  [Opinions mine, not IBM's.]
  
  --
  GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
13. Re:Finally by Klivian · 2009-11-12 08:28 · Score: 1
  
  The "finally" is a bit strong, since it has been there for a while.
  
  Using zypper dup worked flawlessly upgrading my 11.0 installs to 11.1. So I'll say you are at least one release to late with that one.
14. Re:Finally by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 08:40 · Score: 0
  
  Updates are infrequent, eh? How's the botnet treating your connection these days?
15. Re:Finally by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 10:57 · Score: 0
  
  Yes, zypper is faster than yum. It also has a better command line interface. Have *you* tried it?
  I'll let you do your own googling for speed comparisons.
16. Re:Finally by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 19:52 · Score: 0
  
  Distribution upgrade with "zypper dup" already worked perfectly well with openSUSE 11.0 > 11.1, at least on my server. Done within minutes, only one reboot.
17. Re:Finally by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-13 02:12 · Score: 0
  
  Zypper here is pretty fast actually.
  However, you you think that yum or apt is better, well just use zypper once to install it and use yum or apt next time. what's the problem?
Why switch to openSuse? by RiotingPacifist · 2009-11-12 06:00 · Score: 2, Interesting

This is nice and all but that's a pretty standard distro release, can anybody tell me why i would want to switch from a similar distro, say ubuntu 9.10 or fedora 12 to openSuse?
sure I could try them all but there is only so much time i want to spend installing/setting stuff up.

--
IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
1. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 06:03 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  Don't! It is made by Novell so this is actually a M$ Linux and thus evil!!11one
2. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by russlar · 2009-11-12 06:07 · Score: 1
  
  yast
  
  --
  Anybody want my mod points?
3. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 06:13 · Score: 0
  
  If you like whichever distro you're currently using, stick with that. You're not the only reader here, and some of the others use OpenSUSE or simply have an interest in what's happening with different distributions.
4. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by houghi · 2009-11-12 06:15 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Only you can tell. If you are happy with what you have, stay where you are. (This also goes for Windows users.) If you are interested in trying out, download it and try it out. I use it as I like YaST and zypper. I also like to use it to combine it with the repositories I can make myself on https://build.opensuse.org/ and I like it because I can easily make my own distro based on it on http://susestudio.com/
  
  --
  Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
5. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by Krondor · 2009-11-12 06:21 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Sure a few reasons;
  OpenSUSE has one of the best KDE4 setups. They've done a lot of work into making KDE4 really shine. The Firefox KDE integration is AWESOME, and not something I am sure the other distros are shipping with. There is also additional work above and beyond stock on OpenOffice and such. A great attention to detail on the theming (not that you can't change that on Ubuntu and Fedora).
  Zypper is hands down the best RPM tool and I would say on par or superior to Apt. Definitely a step over yum.
  Nomad provide an RDP server for Linux that supports Compiz, not sure if that's been ported to other distros.
  iFolder (if you care about that) is so far only packaged for SUSE, I believe.
  Also Yast is great to administer your system if you're not command line friendly. It used to be atrocious, but now is very much decent. I still don't use it that much, but it has an appeal to people (especially our Windows friends). Overall it's a solid distro and I would say on par with Ubuntu and others.
6. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 06:22 · Score: 0
  
  openSuSE's a nice, user-friendly distro that doesn't need too much fiddling from the user to work out of the box but comes with some nice admin tools that might help when you do want to mess around. i have a habit of ending up back on openSuSE because it works with all my hardware (except the inevitable wireless, which no linux will work with easily, thanks to broadcom) without any fuss.
  if your distro suits you fine then i wouldn't bother swapping -- to any other distro. what would be the point? if, on the other hand, you're one of those that's been stung by hardware issues with ubuntu updates or fedora pushing something that's not quite roadworthy then openSuSE's worth a punt.
  sorry for the lack of flames :(
7. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by H.G.Blob · 2009-11-12 06:22 · Score: 1
  
  IMHO openSuse is the by far the most polished KDE distro out there and yast is a very useful tool if you don't like editing config files.
8. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 06:23 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  It's a bit more stable that Fedora, or at least that's been my opinion from using it. It's well balanced new enough packages but it doesn't change every 6 months and when it does change it's possible and fairly easy to upgrade.
  It has java packages, mono packages, all the dev tools you can image. The repository collection they have is fairly rich and complete as well. Flash runs in Firefox, there are VLC package with video codecs and all the good stuff. Honestly, to me as a user and I've sort of done my time being a bleeding heart libre/free software advocate and monk, it's not ideological, it's simply a platform and it works pretty darn well. I know people get butt hurt about mono and java and who Novell has done business with but it works out of the box, has damn never everything I need and it has all the fluff that is nice to have. If you've got some ideological feelings, you'll be happier with FC12. Firefox is called "Firefox" in OpenSuse. I believe it has a webkit based browser now as well. Opera is in the non-OSS repo. It has a non-OSS repo.
  As far as comparing it to Ubuntu? It's RPM based. It seems like a very competitive product with Ubuntu but I couldn't say which is "better."
  It's a high quality, community driven distribution with all the bells and whistles.
9. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by Enderandrew · 2009-11-12 06:38 · Score: 1
  
  The reason I run openSUSE is that they have great packages. Ubuntu's 9.10 release was like every other release they have, which is broken. Fedora also likes to push bleeding edge.
  openSUSE does live fairly close to the bleeding edge, but they have a lot of developers pushing upstream code, and making solid packages. Heck, I often run weekly development snapshots from them and feel pretty secure in knowing they won't break my box.
  They have arguably the best KDE 4.x desktop out there (Arch and Sabayon also being solid contenders). They also put a lot of time and attention into their Gnome desktop, but I don't run it and can't comment on it.
  Yast is a fantastic tool.
  Novell seems to be pushing the bulk of development in major projects like Evolution, Openoffice, etc. Novell and Red Hat seem to be the two kings of upstream development.
  The knock against openSUSE is that they're falling a little behind in certain features (they're just now pushing EXT4, I think they still haven't moved to Upstart or DeviceKit, etc.) Sadly, I think think this is a result of the Novell layoffs last year. I wish there were fewer distros, so that the Linux community could consolidate and focus on putting out the best possible product as oppose to replicating everyone else's efforts.
  
  --
  http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
10. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by Enderandrew · 2009-11-12 06:39 · Score: 1
  
  One of the best aspects of Yast is that the core design and libraries are agnostic of the toolkit. So the CLI version of Yast looks and operates the same was as the GTK+ and Qt versions.
  
  --
  http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
11. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by sricetx · 2009-11-12 06:49 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  And it's problematic if you do like editing config files. At least when I was using it (Suse 10.0 or 10.1?) before I switched to Kubuntu, Yast didn't play well with config files I had hand-edited and tended to overwrite my changes. Package management was god-awful in the Suse 10 release too, but I'm assuming that's been fixed by now.
12. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by TheGreatOrangePeel · 2009-11-12 06:51 · Score: 1
  
  When I'm curious about a distro, I test ride it on VirtualBox as it minimizes the amount of time I waste on the distro. That's not to say that all Linux distros are a waste of time ... My advice is that you install a few apps and go through a couple of updates in the virtual machine before you spend any time on doing an install on a real machine.
13. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by Krondor · 2009-11-12 06:58 · Score: 1
  
  Package management was god-awful in the Suse 10 release too, but I'm assuming that's been fixed by now.
  It has been fixed, thank god! OpenSUSE 10 made the horrible mistake of trying to wedge in the redcarpet (ZENworks for Linux) stuff. It went horribly horribly bad. They lost a lot of people as dependency hell ensued. 10.1 was a complete rewrite of how they handled packages, and with zypper standard now (even with Yast). It's not just fixed but it is the best RPM distro at handling packages, IMO.
  Eww 10.0... shudder.
14. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by cbhacking · 2009-11-12 06:59 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Actually, one of the major advantages of Yast is that it has an excellent NCurses-based terminal interface, which works beautifully over ssh. Easiest distro to remotely manage that I've ever tried (also, back in the day, easiest one to fix on the occasion that a graphics driver update made X stop working).
  For those who don't know, Yast is basically the configuration tool for *everything* - repository and package management, network configuration, video driver configuration, user accounts, runlevel and login behavior, configuring a hypervisor, re-partitioning, managing GRUB... basically, it's a centralized management tool. It's graphical and designed for user-friendliness, with help info for every setting, but it will also display the relevant config files and allow you to edit them manually too. I've actually found it useful when trying to learn the format of a given config file, since Yast's help info + comparing the options on the graphical display with the generated config file = an easy way to learn the format and options of a config file.
  
  --
  There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
15. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by anandrajan · 2009-11-12 07:01 · Score: 1
  
  This is nice and all but that's a pretty standard distro release, can anybody tell me why i would want to switch from a similar distro, say ubuntu 9.10 or fedora 12 to openSuse?
  
  I've been running opensuse since 9.3 (when it was just SUSE 9.3). I don't know about switching from fedora, but opensuse 11.2 has a very nice kde 4.3 implementation. And you can run kde 4.3 without using pulseaudio which is a plus in my book since I don't see the need for pulse on my standard desktop. Of course YMMV.
  
  --
  Anand Rangarajan anand@cise.ufl.edu
16. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by kimvette · 2009-11-12 07:06 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  If you want to get actual work done, OpenSUSE is pretty much ready to go out of the box. Its achilles' heel has historically been poor wifi support (requiring a lot of tinkering, whereas Ubuntu has worked consistently well with wifi in my experience) but hopefully 11.2 fares a lot better in that regard.
  
  --
  The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
17. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by RiotingPacifist · 2009-11-12 07:14 · Score: 1
  
  I forgot about pissing of the boycott Novell types, I'm downloading the torrent NOW!
  
  --
  IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
18. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by Runaway1956 · 2009-11-12 07:16 · Score: 1
  
  I can't think of any "compelling reasons" to switch distros. Suse is nice, it gave me my "entry" into Linux because it worked on hardware that everything else balked at. But - I've actually moved away from Suse to Deb derivatives - mostly Ubuntu.
  As for testing everything - I've encouraged many Windows users to download and run LiveCD's. That advice might apply to seasoned *nix users as well. Curious, but not willing to go to all the work of installing? Test drive those LiveCD's!!!
  Oh yeah - I made a convert last evening. He brought me an e-Machine with Vista. Totally Fubar'd. I sat him down, demonstrated E-live and Ubuntu, and he demanded that I install Ubuntu for him. I'll be getting some support calls from him, but I won't be cleaning any virus off of Ubuntu!
  
  --
  "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
19. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 07:23 · Score: 0
  
  Yast was great until Novell bought SuSE. Then it went downhill with all of the enhancements that Novell wanted to have in it. It is getting better, it was much faster in 11.1 than in 10.1, for example.
  Compared to Redhat's built in tools for administration, Yast is amazing. Then again, if you can't use the command line, you may as well just use Linux as a personal Desktop OS. I'll never care about Yast or any other admin tool like it on the servers that I support.
20. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by houghi · 2009-11-12 07:26 · Score: 1
  
  For those who don't know, Yast is basically the configuration tool for *everything*
  It is also used for the installation itself. If you make your own openSUSE or SUSE based distribution, you can completely change the whole installation process.
  http://forgeftp.novell.com//yast/doc/SL11.1/ has a TON of information and if you desire you can even write your own modules.
  e.g. the part about automated partitioning under AutoYaST.
  
  --
  Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
21. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by slonik · 2009-11-12 07:28 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  For those who don't know, Yast is basically the configuration tool for *everything* - repository and package management, network configuration, video driver configuration, user accounts, runlevel and login behavior, configuring a hypervisor, re-partitioning, managing GRUB... basically, it's a centralized management tool.
  Your forgot to mention that Yast also manages Apache, Samba, security, sshd, printers/scanners, fax, network time ntp, etc. Pretty much Yast configures everything that is configurable:-)
22. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by houghi · 2009-11-12 07:51 · Score: 1
  
  Well, if youi are a developer, you could think about putting your stuff on https://build.opensuse.org/ where you can build not only for openSUSE and SUSE, but also for CentOS, Fedora, Mandriva, RedHat, Debian and Ubuntu.
  Because what I often see is packages build for one distribution, but often not for many.
  
  --
  Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
23. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by cheros · 2009-11-12 07:53 · Score: 1
  
  I've slowly started to wonder that as well. WiFi support has always been, well, rubbish, the KDE4 mess wasn't really their fault but didn't help either, and you need to add other repositories if you want to download stuff like Asterisk - which usually isn't properly integrated so you end up hunting for libraries and the whole DIY show starts that you were trying to avoid in the first place. And that's before you try to run it 64bit. I used to actually buy the commercial version, but with OpenSuSE not working for me that stopped.
  On the flipside, when it works it works well and is quite easy to change into what you want (I tend to run a desktop which is halfway between desktop and server). I found Ubuntu in that respect more work - it really is a desktop where server facilities are still "old school" config files.
  As I tend to run *one* version of Linux I'll torrent the OpenSuSE DVD once more and see if it works for me on a clean box (I never found upgrades work that well, and it's nice to clean out the crud). I also just grabbed the Mandriva DVD which is a distro I have never used before. We'll see which one wins, I'm not religious about it :-)
  
  --
  Insert .sig here. Send no money now. Owner may sue, contents will settle. Batteries not included.
24. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 08:09 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  Then again, if you can't use the command line, you may as well just use Linux as a personal Desktop OS. I'll never care about Yast or any other admin tool like it on the servers that I support.
  Oh my God! People might want to use a desktop OS and not run servers! RUN FOR THE HILLS! THE ELITIST JERKS ARE COMING!
25. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 08:16 · Score: 0
  
  The new Mandriva's very nice. I liked openSUSE 11.1 too, but Mandriva seemed slightly less bloated -- which is probably just psychological.
  Both good choices, I'd say...
26. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by gbarules2999 · 2009-11-12 08:18 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  You forgot to rant about Mono.
27. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by richlv · 2009-11-12 09:02 · Score: 1
  
  exactly. some time ago they evaluated whether they should keep this approach. it seems they decided on keeping, which is great.
  when gui breaks, or when using cli only (servers), console yast is awesome to have even if you are a slackware user (like me), who is used to configuring everything with config files.
  if anybody from suse reads this, keep console/gui uniformity of yast, that is definitely a selling point (as opposed to gui-only redhat tools...)
  i'm also using opensuse for people whom i'm setting up linux - having fairly good kde integration is a big reason for that.
  a pretty big problem is lack of what ubuntu calls 'lts', releases with longer support and repo availability.
  this has made me curious about rolling release distro like arch...
  
  --
  Rich
28. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by richlv · 2009-11-12 09:09 · Score: 1
  
  agreed, yast tends to nuke many user changes. on the other hand, many of those files have notices at the top warning against editing them and pointing to source files that are used when regenerating those files ;)
  as for package management, pushing for zen tools on opensuse was a HUGE mistake. at that point the top faq was "wtf ?", and answer was "remove all traces of zmd". which i tried to do whenever i installed suse, but if i forgot, it sometimes messed things up irrepairably.
  in latest releases zypper has gotten much better, it has improved performance and i have actually started using it instead of smart package manager. what i still feel is missing in zypper - decent, supported and properly working interactive mode.
  
  --
  Rich
29. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by rubycodez · 2009-11-12 10:58 · Score: 1
  
  are you kidding? your Ubuntu is only at 9.10, while OpenSuSE goes all the way past 11!
30. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by cbhacking · 2009-11-12 13:22 · Score: 1
  
  Poor WiFi? Hmm... I have a laptop that has run openSuse since 10.0, and over the last couple of releases the WiFi works even while installing (and no, it's not a liveCD, just a graphical installer program). I was able to download updates and such before the OS was actually installed.
  Intel Pro Wireless 802.11abg, I forget the exact chipset designation.
  
  --
  There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
31. Re:Why switch to openSuse? by backwardMechanic · 2009-11-12 20:31 · Score: 1
  
  Clearly if you're running Ubuntu you should switch, because it's only at version 9, but the best choice is obviously Fedora, because then you get v12. Easy, eh?
Wokring Link? by SirBigSpur · 2009-11-12 06:06 · Score: 1

Anybody know of a mirror that actually works?
1. Re:Wokring Link? by Vetruvet · 2009-11-12 06:15 · Score: 1
  
  No... it seems just about all mirrors (that I checked) are either timing out or give 403 Forbidden messages. I was able to start a download from a direct link (but it got flaky and stopped), and now I can't even start (or find a working torrent).
2. Re:Wokring Link? by houghi · 2009-11-12 06:21 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  http://software.opensuse.org/112/en which will point you to a mirror automatically, to bittorernt, metalink or a mirror you can select.
  If you have a bit of experience, you can go with the Network version. Otherwise go with the GNOME or KDE version. Only if you will be installing on several machines should you download the DVD.
  After installation there is no difference between the different versions, except for the obvious difference between KDE/GNOME. The CD versions are live versions can be run from USB stick as well.
  More infor on the above URL
  
  --
  Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
I use windows 7 by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 06:08 · Score: -1, Troll

is there a compelling reason for switching to 11.2?
1. Re:I use windows 7 by Disgruntled+Goats · 2009-11-12 06:10 · Score: 0, Troll
  
  Sure, if you think you're being too productive and you have way too many useful programs available to use under Windows.
2. Re:I use windows 7 by SirBigSpur · 2009-11-12 06:14 · Score: 1
  
  I use Windows 7 as well and so far really like it. However I find that its fun and interesting to play with different Operating systems from time to time.
3. Re:I use windows 7 by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 06:57 · Score: -1, Troll
  
  is there a compelling reason for switching to 11.2?
  Yes. There are several. Do you want to have your wireless randomly forget your settings? Do you want a lack of software? Do you want your desktop to crash a few times a week? Do you want the majority of hardware available in stores to not work? Do you want your sound to not work?
  If you answered yes to any of those, Linux is for you! Why doesn't everyone use it?
4. Re:I use windows 7 by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 07:37 · Score: 0
  
  Score minus 1,000,000.
Nice, but ... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 06:12 · Score: -1, Troll

How does this compare to, say, a train, which I can also afford?
Be still my beating heart by westlake · 2009-11-12 06:14 · Score: 0

the beating heart of every openSUSE system.
Linux as the love object of a Harlequin romance.
KNetworkManager, Amarok, Digikam, k3b, Konversation and more.
I suppose the geek learns to live with this sort of thing. But words like Korny and Konfusing also come to mind,
1. Re:Be still my beating heart by TheModelEskimo · 2009-11-12 06:21 · Score: 1
  
  But words like Korny and Konfusing also come to mind,
  *booop beeep* INSERT COIN
Only 11.2? by filesiteguy · 2009-11-12 06:21 · Score: 1

I'm suprised to see they're only at 11.2. I honestly had moved away from SUSE/openSUSE towards Ubuntu after the zypper wars and teh KDE3/4 issues. (I succumbed to using GNOME on Ubuntu and am okay with it.) The last I used openSUSE was 11.1 almost a year ago, and I would have figured they to be at 11.3 or even 12.0 by now.

--
The Kai's Semi-Updated Website Thingy
1. Re:Only 11.2? by houghi · 2009-11-12 06:24 · Score: 1
  
  Every 8 months there is a new version (used to be 6). So 11.3 will be out in 8 months. I can't wait. :-D
  
  --
  Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
2. Re:Only 11.2? by Enderandrew · 2009-11-12 06:41 · Score: 1
  
  They moved to an 8 month release. 8 months is almost a year. Are you suggesting that Ubuntu is superior because the increase the version number every 6 months as opposed to 8 months?
  What does a version number mean?
  
  --
  http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
3. Re:Only 11.2? by Vlad_the_Inhaler · 2009-11-12 07:12 · Score: 1
  
  A downloaded a brand new opensuse level around 20-December last year and am pretty sure it was 11.1. That is a l-o-n-g 8 months. I am grabbing it now and will put it up on my test machine when BitTorrent finishes.
  
  --
  Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
4. Re:Only 11.2? by filesiteguy · 2009-11-12 09:08 · Score: 1
  
  Hey, Houghi! I see it used to be six months.
  
  I do have openSUSE 11.x running KDE 2.2 still...
  
  http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/2009/20090522_kde22_opensuse11.jpg
  
  --
  The Kai's Semi-Updated Website Thingy
5. Re:Only 11.2? by filesiteguy · 2009-11-12 09:16 · Score: 1
  
  Nope! Wasn't suggesting Ubuntu is superior because of that. In fact, I miss the all-in-one functionality of YaST. Keep in mind, that I used SUSE/openSUSE from '05 until early '09. I only switched because of other issues I was having and the percieved instability of Novell to maintain both KDE and GNOME versions while trying to make zypper finally work (which it hadn't since replacing YPM in 10.x).
  
  Oddly enough, though I bashed GNOME heavily - and still find it's file open/save dialog lacking - I jumped into GNOME over KDE since I didn't really like what the KDE team had done with 4.x and felt GNOME was more suitable for day-to-day usage.
  
  Ubuntu is a very nice distro that *appears* to have better support than openSUSE and seems to have less fanatical devotees. :P
  
  --
  The Kai's Semi-Updated Website Thingy
Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Zombie+Ryushu · 2009-11-12 06:26 · Score: 1, Insightful

When ext3 came out, I had reservations about it, and I stuck to ext2 until I was reasonably sure ext3 was totally safe. I've heard bad things about Ext4 corrupting data. While not as overtly malicious as Pulse Audio, (Which is an insidious parasite. Difficult to remove.) ext4 scares the Hell out of me at this state.
I urge Linux users to stick to ext3 for the protection of your data. At least for another year, give ext4 the chance to mature, then, when we are certain ext4 is safe, start using it.
1. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Enderandrew · 2009-11-12 06:43 · Score: 0
  
  Ext4 has been mature and stable for at least 3 years now.
  I also think openSUSE is the last of the big distros to switch to it. So it isn't like they are pushing something brand new.
  
  --
  http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
2. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 06:48 · Score: 0
  
  I remember /. arguing about weather it was ext4's fault or KDE's that data was lost. Because it was /. the truth was not discussed despite how intelligent and informed every single +5 was.
  Ext4 is fine. You can stop the paranoia. It isn't necessary now and it won't be two years from now when you are still trolling it like it's hot off the press.
3. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 06:54 · Score: 0
  
  ext4 is the one that loses data. That Ted Ts'o "your data means nothing to me" programmer tries to defend this as somehow "correct" but was forced to backtrack to keep users from massive data loss. The fact that Ted Ts'o still has commit access to any kernel level code repositories is a strong negative for Linux when competing for mindshare. The powers that be should have booted him the minute he spewed his boneheaded "explanations" blaming the userland programs for the data loss when the data loss didn't occur with previous file systems.
  I tried it and had incredible amount of truncated files, but fortunately for me it wasn't on a system that had important stuff. Stay away from ext4 until they get around to removing Ts'o commit access to the main kernel repositories and somebody with a clue steps in to fix the mess he created.
4. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Rhapsody+Scarlet · 2009-11-12 06:57 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Ext4 has been mature and stable for at least 3 years now.
  No, it's been in the kernel for three years but was developmental for most of that. It was only declared stable with 2.6.28, which was released just over one year ago. Personally, I'm going to wait another year or two here. When it comes to file systems, I tend to be on the conservative side.
5. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 07:05 · Score: 0
  
  What exactly makes you nervous? Just because of what you heard? Have you even tried it for yourself?
  I've tried it with several different distros and they all worked great.
  I wouldn't trust ANY file system without current backups.
  Oh, please say you are making current backups and if you are, what's the worry?
6. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 07:06 · Score: 0
  
  Ext4 has been mature and stable for at least 3 years now.
  From wikipedia:
  "on June 28, 2006, Theodore Ts'o, the ext3 maintainer, announced the new plan of development for ext4"
  So they went from planning to "mature and stable" in less than five months?
  I did not know Chuk Norris was a kernel contributor.
7. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Vlad_the_Inhaler · 2009-11-12 07:08 · Score: 1
  
  That statement loses all its impact when made by an AC.
  
  --
  Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
8. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 07:12 · Score: 0
  
  Who cares about ext4? They are using the usual "throw it away before it's even finished and start on another one" development method. Just wait for btrfs, or until btrfs gets dumped for something else far better.
9. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Enderandrew · 2009-11-12 07:12 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Ext4 is merely an extension (that is mostly backwards-compatible) of Ext3. Ext4 was born out of patches that were intended for Ext3. In 2006, the decision was made to split some of the newer features being pushed into Ext3 under the namespace of Ext4. It isn't like they started development on Ext4 in 2006. In 2006, there was a usable file system from the day it was annouced as a "new" project.
  It was pretty damn stable then, and even more stable now.
  I've been running it for 3 years. The age of a product does not always equate directly to stability. There are old releases that aren't very stable, and then there are projects that are well designed, and are stable pretty much from day 1.
  Ext4 is one such project. However, if you're terrified of Ext4 eating your dog, you're welcome to run Fat32 if it makes you feel better.
  
  --
  http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
10. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 07:17 · Score: 0
  
  "I urge Linux users to stick to ext3 for the protection of your data. At least for another year, give ext4 the chance to mature, then, when we are certain ext4 is safe, start using it."
  You are not a file systems expert. So why give out shady misinformed advice and why do you think anyone will listen.
  ext4 is stable. Very stable. The tiny amount of people experiencing minor data loss happened during the development stage and was nipped in the bud a long time ago.
  Stop giving advice out for things you haven't tested and stop spreading FUD. Yes. You.
  Leave the decision to what is good for your system to the experts. Yes. The OpenSuSe developers have selected ext4fs as the default file system because they have tested it for you and have not found it to corrupt or loose data.
  It is your loss if you don't want to use the improvements of the new file system and stick with a should be depreciated fs but please don't advise others to follow your misguided theory that everything is broken "Because you heard/read about it somewhere."
  ext4fs is good!
11. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Runaway1956 · 2009-11-12 07:24 · Score: 0, Troll
  
  I've been waiting for Reiser to go mainstream. Whatever happened to that? Huh? Oh, you say Reiser went to prison? DA-YUM!! They won't give him access to the intartubez, or what?
  This is just the schitz.
  Ext4? Hmmmm. We're not being set up for ANOTHER murder mystery, are we?
  
  --
  "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
12. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Bacon+Bits · 2009-11-12 07:27 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  However, if you're terrified of Ext4 eating your dog, you're welcome to run Fat32 if it makes you feel better.
  Don't be obtuse. FAT is a horrible file system. He's going to stick with ext3.
  A simple Google search shows that many people and many different distros have experienced data corruption and data loss and it has been attributed to anything from bugs in ext4 to the kernel not behaving as the ext4 developers were expecting due to specific configurations made for a given distro. Some people are very paranoid about data loss. Using ext3 instead is his choice, and choice is what Linux is all about.
  
  --
  The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
13. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 07:49 · Score: 0
  
  So they tested it and didn't find any problems. What does loosing data even mean? Can a filesystem tighten data?
  If someone tests something and doesn't find any problems, it means just that, that they didn't find the problems. Maybe they weren't testing it properly. Maybe they are such great filesystem experts, that they could never imagine some other program saving a file could be programmed so poorly.
  I expect that at least a few people tested Ubuntu 9.10, but that didn't seem to stop a load of other people running into problems with it shortly after it was released.
14. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Hatta · 2009-11-12 07:53 · Score: 1
  
  Ext4 has been mature and stable for at least 3 years now.
  Then why did a bunch of people lose data in March of this year?
  That's fixed though. Just mount your filesystems with the option alloc_on_commit to get the safe Ext3 behavior.
  
  --
  Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
15. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 08:02 · Score: 0
  
  And Linus said ext4 wasn't fine. It seems to be ok now, however.
16. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Enderandrew · 2009-11-12 08:14 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Actually those "Ext4" data corruption issues that set the Internet all ablaze (including Slashdot) were mainly due to KDE 4 not handling metadata correctly. In the end, it wasn't an Ext4 issue. However, feel free to spread FUD.
  And you're right. I shouldn't have suggested he run Fat32 if he is paranoid that newer filesystems are inherently unsafe. He should run Fat16 to be sure.
  Certainly, an older file system that doesn't have the nicer, fine-grained journaling (and journaling controls) which be much safer.
  Ext4 is a wild, data-eating beast that just can't be trusted.
  
  --
  http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
17. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 08:24 · Score: 0
  
  I tend to be an early adopter. But some quick googling shows one person after another ruining their computer after switching. And the worst part about it, is that their pleas for help go completely unanswered on the boards.
  Ted Tso will never lose his powers, unfortunately. Guy has been a big fat albatross around linux's neck for years. On the plus side, he is so out of shape that he will probably die of diabetes soon.
18. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by clampolo · 2009-11-12 08:28 · Score: 1
  
  Stop giving advice out for things you haven't tested and stop spreading FUD. Yes. You.
  If you would take 30s to do some simple googling you would see that there are plenty of people having problems. You are an ass for accusing that guy of FUD without doing even a simple fact check. Yes. You.
19. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Eil · 2009-11-12 08:39 · Score: 1
  
  Oh yeah, well I urge Linux users to stick to ext2 for the protection of your data. At least for another year, give ext3 the chance to mature, then, when we are certain ext3 is safe, start using it.
  >/sarcasm<
  I work in a datacenter with tens of thousands of Linux machines and we see Linux fail in every way imaginable. It's impossible to get any substantially-complex piece of code bug-free, the best anyone can do is "good enough." Sure, everyone has their own definition of "good enough," but I trust the judgement of the kernel and distribution developers in that regard. (Because if I didn't, I'd lobby for using a different OS entirely, anyway.)
  Besides, if nobody uses a particular feature out of fear, it can never be tested and proven reliable.
  Also, remember to keep backups whether or not you're using a filesystem that's seen recent development.
20. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 09:01 · Score: 0
  
  Spinal Tap Linux goes all the way to ext11! It loses all your data!
21. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Eil · 2009-11-12 09:04 · Score: 1
  
  oh noes, my brackets went the wrong way
22. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by sensei+moreh · 2009-11-12 09:27 · Score: 1
  
  And you're right. I shouldn't have suggested he run Fat32 if he is paranoid that newer filesystems are inherently unsafe. He should run Fat16 to be sure.
  Not sure about FAT16 - yeah, it's older than FAT32, but FAT12's been around longer. Just to be safe, though, I'd go back whatever the filesystem was that CP/M used.
  
  --
  Geology - it's not rocket science; it's rock science
23. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by oatworm · 2009-11-12 09:36 · Score: 1
  
  I heard it keeps most of your data, but some of it spontaneously explodes from time to time.
24. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Assembler · 2009-11-12 09:50 · Score: 1
  
  I remember reading something about this a while ago, but I forgot: what did KDE do wrong?
25. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by rantingkitten · 2009-11-12 09:58 · Score: 1
  
  Oh yeah? Well, I recommend that everyone chisel their data into stone tablets and store them in underground, climate-controlled facilities. Give this "papyrus" thing a chance to mature and maybe I'll start using it, once I know it's safe.
  
  --
  mirrorshades radio -- darkwave, industrial, futurepop, ebm.
26. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Abcd1234 · 2009-11-12 10:12 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  IIRC, they neglected to call fsync when writing out configuration data, and the POSIX spec states that unless you call fsync, there's no guarantees that the data actually hits the disk right away. Combine that with the fact that ext4 extended the delay between write() and physical write out to disk (which, I believe, they've changed, although I could be wrong about that), and a sudden crash can result in data loss/corruption due to blocks having never been written out.
  So, that said, it's absolutely true that KDE4 was making invalid assumptions about the behaviour of the underlying storage, which resulted in corruption. But it's also true that ext4's unusually long sync times exacerbated the problem. As such, I'd say there's plenty of blame to go around.
27. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 10:12 · Score: 0
  
  Your mom said ext4 was fine. But she didn't seem to be quite so sure after last night, however.
28. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Kjella · 2009-11-12 11:20 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  Actually those "Ext4" data corruption issues that set the Internet all ablaze (including Slashdot) were mainly due to KDE 4 not handling metadata correctly. In the end, it wasn't an Ext4 issue. However, feel free to spread FUD.
  Bullshit. The error was very generic and not limited to KDE, any system crash could lead to zero byte files in almost any application. It broke an extremely standard way of writing a new version of a file by writing it to a new file then renaming it in place of the old.
  You have a file foo.txt
  You write foo2.txt
  You rename foo2.txt to foo.txt
  Now your machine could crash for up to half an hour (I think, a long time), and you'd have neither the old or the new file. Unless you didn't explicitly fsync() the write, it could have renamed foo2.txt into place without having written the contents of f002.txt, and gone was all your data. It just became painfully obvious in KDE because it broke vital configuration files but it broke thousands of applications. It's a horrible case of the denial you see in Linux land, hiding behind the POSIX specification to defend all the real world damage.
  I have no faith in the people developing ext4 after that stupidity, and wouldn't use it on any of my machines. One thing would be if they handled it responsibly, but the childish approach they took was embarrassing. Any person that breaks convention wtih so little regard for the consequences, then tries to defend it so vigorously will not come near my systems. How knows how much else he's willing to break unless there's a standard that says he can't? Because there's sure as hell are many other Linuxisms that aren't POSIX in there as well, fortunately Linus has never been this kind of reckless idiot.
  
  --
  Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
29. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Enderandrew · 2009-11-12 11:59 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  You misunderstand.
  KDE 4 wasn't following POSIX standards for writing to a HDD. Most file systems have delayed writes and caching at some level.
  In an extreme sense, some were concerned that Ext4 could delay a write for up to a minute. It wasn't 30 minutes. The operation should still be in the journal. It should be recoverable.
  And before you get all upset, you should realize that these delayed writes also exist in Ext2 and Ext3.
  NTFS also supports OS-level write caching. Even worse, Windows Server will often enable it by default on top of a RAID controller having it's own level of write caching. So you can be told a file is written, when neither the OS actually sent the write to the RAID controller, and even if it did, the RAID controller hasn't actually performed the write yet.
  Ext3 and Ext4 both support varying levels of journals. You make the decision of which journal behavior you want. Do you want faster performance, or do you want more piece of mind?
  And since this discussion is in regards to openSUSE shipping with Ext4, openSUSE defaults to the safer ordered journaling mode.
  However, feel free to talk about your ass, spread FUD and live in the stone age.
  You're not any safer for it.
  
  --
  http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
30. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Enderandrew · 2009-11-12 12:03 · Score: 1
  
  Not to mention a part of the culprit is the fact that Ubuntu keeps shipping completely broken KDE packages. If they didn't ship broken packages, these crashes wouldn't have occured.
  You're example is at the userland level of 3 separate full on file operations. That isn't the problem. The problem was with one file operation on a low level, and what happens with the journal.
  
  --
  http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
31. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Rozzin · 2009-11-12 12:04 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Actually those "Ext4" data corruption issues that set the Internet all ablaze (including Slashdot) were mainly due to KDE 4 not handling metadata correctly. In the end, it wasn't an Ext4 issue. However, feel free to spread FUD.
  Bullshit. The error was very generic and not limited to KDE
  You're right: it's a common application programming error.
  At what frequency does a bug cease to be a bug?
  I wish I'd known that I could promote myself up out of the rank of `amateur' just by pointing out that there were plenty of other people who weren't any more skilled than I was--that would have obviated all of these years of study and hard work.
  
  --
  -rozzin.
32. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by MrHanky · 2009-11-12 12:21 · Score: 1
  
  Why the hell would you urge users to stick with an older FS when the newer and better one needs testing? You should urge users to back up their important data.
  EXT4 is a huge improvement on EXT3, and even if the FS won't fail, the physical hard drive will.
33. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by BikeHelmet · 2009-11-12 12:25 · Score: 1
  
  I've heard bad things about Ext4 corrupting data.
  
  They're mostly overblown. Bad things can happen if you lose power, but that applies to any FS. Buy a UPS.
  
  I urge Linux users to stick to ext3 for the protection of your data.
  I urge linux users to stick to ext2. Windows and BSD have ext2 support(But Windows may require extra software), so if you ever want to try the little red guy out, or go back to Windows for gaming, you'll be cursing if you went ext3. :P
  Unless, of course, your distro uses 128KB inodes(mostly supported) rather than 256KB. (newer distros)
  
  That's why openSUSE now includes a desktop kernel specially tuned for desktop users.
  Ubuntu could take a tip from these guys!
34. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Kjella · 2009-11-12 14:39 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  KDE 4 wasn't following POSIX standards for writing to a HDD.
  You sir, are an idiot.
  Read the bug report.
  I'll give you some quotes:
  
  After a clean reboot pretty much any file written to by any application (during the previous boot) was 0 bytes.
  For example Plasma and some of the KDE core config files were reset. Also some of my MySQL databases were killed...
  -- Bogdan Gribincea
  
  The files that were zeroed when my machine hardlocked I'd imagine were the ones that were in use; my desktop env is Gnome and I was running a game in Wine. Wine's reg files which it would have had open were wiped and also my Gnome terminal settings were wiped.
  
  -- Ben Hodgetts
  
  I'm using 2.6.28-8-generic and a crash just zeroed out a _load_ of important files in my git repository which I'd recently rebased a patch series in.
  -- Peter Cliffton
  
  Ack... had a power outage and ran into this one today too. Several configuration files from programs I was running ended up trashed. This also explains the corruption I've seen of my BOINC/SETI files when hard-rebooting in past weeks.
  -- 3vi1
  I did mix up 30 minutes and 30 seconds. But that's just an example of tons of different applications, databases, source files, Gnome settings and whatever cleaned out by this BUG. Why you keep denying it I don't know, but at least you earned youself a foe rating for it.
  
  --
  Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
35. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Kjella · 2009-11-12 14:47 · Score: 1
  
  Not to mention a part of the culprit is the fact that Ubuntu keeps shipping completely broken KDE packages. If they didn't ship broken packages, these crashes wouldn't have occured.
  So your solution to a file system that goes to hell when machines crash is to make machines that don't crash? Your excuses are terrible.
  
  --
  Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
36. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Enderandrew · 2009-11-12 15:19 · Score: 1
  
  The KDE 4 devs themselves admitted it was their fault for not using Fsync.
  Any file they were opening and trying to create metadata for (any file they could with Strigi/Nepomuk) they were touching and fucking up.
  The issue was the Strigi had a whole bunch of files in a state of flux at once during the crashes.
  Again, KDE fucked up, and Ubuntu fucked up with bad packages that were causing crashes. KDE has since been fixed. No one had reported massive Ext4 file corruption who wasn't running that version of KDE 4.
  And mark me as a foe all you want. You're one less idiot I have to deal with. However, all you have are initial reports from users who didn't know what the issue was. I'm going off the final resolution from the people who identified the issue, took credit, and fixed it. If you want to ignore that, then go right ahead.
  That makes you the idiot.
  
  --
  http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
37. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Enderandrew · 2009-11-12 15:24 · Score: 1
  
  Name one file system on the planet that is 100% guaranteed never to have an issue when the computer crashes.
  Ext4, just like Ext3, is designed to safe guard against crash issues by implementing a journal.
  The issue at hand was a KDE 4 bug in their little indexer that decided to scan your HDD and try to attach meta-data to the various files on your HDD. KDE 4 screwed the pooch. That doesn't make Ext4 unstable.
  
  --
  http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
38. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by jeffstar · 2009-11-12 16:03 · Score: 1
  
  Actually those "Ext4" data corruption issues that set the Internet all ablaze (including Slashdot) were mainly due to KDE 4 not handling metadata correctly. In the end, it wasn't an Ext4 issue. However, feel free to spread FUD.
  Really?
  Looks like there was a real problem with ext4 that had nothing to do with KDE.
39. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 18:42 · Score: 0
  
  glibc manual on rename()
  This may be surprising, but, no, sane application developers do not call the kernel directly. They use things like the standard C library. Things that have documented atomic behaviour.
  Whether it's the fault of ext4 for not being atomic, or the fault of glibc for assuming all filesystems on Linux have atomic renames, is a separate matter; either way, the KDE application developers are at no fault.
  Also, it would be extremely amusing to see a flame war between Theodore Tso and Ulrich Drepper, simply from their reputations.
40. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 22:22 · Score: 0
  
  They're mostly overblown. Bad things can happen if you lose power, but that applies to any FS. Buy a UPS.,
  There are also reports of large files becoming corrupt (md5sum changing) when copied, no crashes involved. Those are more worrying - unless you check the copied file, you could get silent corruption which will then pollute your backups.
  Personally, I'm using ext4 for my root filesystem (which gives some good speed benefits) but sticking to ext3 for my /home and /data partitions for another 6-12 months.
41. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by bcmm · 2009-11-13 02:21 · Score: 1
  
  You just demonstrated that KDE was following de facto standards. That isn't the same thing as following POSIX standards.
  
  I don't have an agenda here; I'm actually pretty much a KDE fanboy, but listing other people who made the same mistake (according to comments on a launchpad bug) doesn't make a spot of difference to what POSIX says.
  
  --
  # cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i llama
  Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
42. Re:Ext4 makes me nervous as Hell. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-13 04:08 · Score: 0
  
  I did not know Chuk Norris was a kernel contributor.
  He isn't.
"or just grab the torrents " by rickb928 · 2009-11-12 06:32 · Score: 5, Funny

There you go again, egging us on to use such tools with no legitimate use for actual *legal* purposes.
Somewhere, the CEOs of Comcast, Time-Warner, the RIAA, and AT&T have collectively felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if most of their objections to actual legitimate Internet use were suddenly silenced...

--
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Upstart, DeviceKit, etc. by Enderandrew · 2009-11-12 06:44 · Score: 2, Interesting

Congrats first and foremost to everyone who worked on this release.
I use and love openSUSE. I've been running betas of 11.2 for a while now.
My only gripe is that openSUSE still apparently hasn't switched to Upstart, nor DeviceKit. I assume Novell's layoffs last year are the reason that openSUSE seems to be falling a little behind in feature adoption. I hope this isn't a growing trend.

--
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
1. Re:Upstart, DeviceKit, etc. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 09:12 · Score: 0
  
  Don't gripe. Be thankful. Suse's conservatism is a major feature and probably one of the biggest reasons for it to be the most stable and reliable linux distributions that I have used over the last 10 years. Remember, it was one of the few distributions that let you use KDE 3.5.x as an option, rather than forcing you into using 4.0, 4.1 or run away screaming. Or maybe you're just trying to spread some subtle fud with linking "novell layoffs" to "falling behind"?
2. Re:Upstart, DeviceKit, etc. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 15:06 · Score: 0
  
  Do you have an actual reason why you feel Upstart is necessary? So far, it just hasn't won traction with openSUSE developers - has nothing to do with layoffs.
huh? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 06:54 · Score: 2, Insightful

"Verify your download (optional, for experts)"
how about:
"Verify your download (mandatory, for everybody)"
I certainly don't anymore by Santana · 2009-11-12 07:45 · Score: 1

Don't get me wrong, please.
I love KDE since 1.x. I've always hated GNOME since it was shipping with RH 5.2.
But I've been waiting for KDE and the whole Linux desktop experience to be good, and 11 years have passed.
Today, I have embraced Mac OS X for my personal desktop, and *love* it: I'm not looking back any more; I use OpenBSD for most of my servers of course; and for the PCs at work, I have succumbed to Ubuntu, a very customized Ubuntu that doesn't expose a whole desktop, but just a dock with only the applications the users need for work.
I fail to see why an easy to use desktop on Linux is needed any more, because all my three uses for a computer are already perfectly covered.
Not that I would reject using Linux as a desktop somewhere. Heck, I have used OpenBSD as a desktop. But just because I want to contribute to the project, or learn their internals. And for my users, it's better for them and for the company/institution that forget that they have a "Personal Computer": they don't; the machine in front of them is just a tool to get their job done. Then a whole desktop is overkill.

--
The best way to predict the future is to invent it
1. Re:I certainly don't anymore by jamboarder · 2009-11-12 08:41 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Oh please just shut up and go away.... Ok, OS X is nice. It's pretty. It does a lot of things well. It "just works". It "gets out of my way". blah, blah, blah. Great, good to hear it... for the bazzilionth time...
  
  Look if there actually exist Linux folk who haven't heard how uber-awesome OS X is, they invariably live under a rock in some deep hole... deliberately. They don't want to come out. For the many of the rest of us who don't live in said hole, guess what? We choose to use (openSuse/Ubuntu/Arch/Mandriva) Linux despite OS X. Why? Cuz we are absolute nutcases who have nothing better to do than to use the piece(s) of software we like.
2. Re:I certainly don't anymore by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 09:51 · Score: 0
  
  Finally. Somebody said the way it is.
  
  I am more tired of "use Mac" crowd than anybody else. No matter what the discussion is, they have to jump in shouting crazy about mac this and that.
  
  It may "just work" (though looking at apple board, I do not think that way), but there may be people who do not want to use it for reasons valid to them - e.g. not burning holes in their pockets, not buying new hardware just because the company forced you to, or just because of very heavy vendor lock-in.
  
  And some us do not use everything i* - so we have freedom not to worry if my desktop works with itunes/ipod/iphone or not.
How's the Upgrade? by RAMMS+EIN · 2009-11-12 07:59 · Score: 1

I'd like to hear from users who have upgraded from the previous release (as opposed to performing a new installation).
How did you perform the upgrade?
How did it go?
Did anything that was working before stop working?
Is there anything in the new version that you like so much you don't want to go back to the old version anymore?

--
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
Has your webcam ever showed up in Yast's Hardware? by Provocateur · 2009-11-12 10:52 · Score: 1

Or will they forever be classed as the gypsies of the Linux universe, shunned by most distros? If your
webcam ever ever showed up in yast, then maybe I shall hold my tongue, and instead start singing
hosannas to its superiority. In 11.0, 'Scanners' iirc showed up. Almost, but not quite.

--
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
Who cares? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-12 11:17 · Score: 0

Suse blows.
Because all other Linux distros are illegal by walterbyrd · 2009-11-13 01:12 · Score: 1

Just ask Microsoft.
As I understand it: Microsoft has claimed they will not sue novell linux users for infringing on msft patents. Msft claims that linux infringes on several msft patents, although msft will not specify exactly which patents. If you use any linux distro other than novell, msft might sue you.
And don't forget to pay scox $699 for each CPU, if you run linux. Thank msft for that also.
Debian FreeBSD by Anonymous Coward · 2009-11-13 01:57 · Score: 0

Even geeks on slashdot refer to it as "Linux" and distros are named "RedHat Linux" and "Ubuntu Linux" and "SuSE Linux."
Debian FreeBSD:
http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/
vs Mandriva by gr8dude · 2009-11-13 02:52 · Score: 1

I am curious what its advantages are over Mandriva; just a few days ago someone wrote the same thing about it - "Mandriva provides the best KDE4 experience".
It was also said that it has the most easy to use administration interface too.
I'm asking this as a GNOME user who decided to give KDE4 a try, so I hope you can shed some light on the subject.

--
The saddest poem
1. Re:vs Mandriva by Krondor · 2009-11-16 02:13 · Score: 1
  
  I honestly don't know too much about Mandriva these days. I was an avid Mandrake user until they stir up (some time back).
  Looking at the latest release notes there are some interesting things. Looks like a lot of work into 1 click install of codecs, firmware, etc...
  I would still hypothesize that OpenSUSE would have the better KDE4 experience, due to the work done to KDEify Firefox and OpenOffice (though I do see Mandriva uses Go-OO). The OpenSUSE Build service as well seems to keep a lot more software options packaged for SUSE then other RPM variants (with of course Ubuntu leading the charge for prepackaged binaries).
  I think I might give Mandriva another look though since it has been so long since I considered them.