Slashdot Mirror


"Pathfinders" Take Shape For Galileo, Europe's GPS

oliderid sends along a BBC report on progress toward Europe's home-grown GPS system. The Galileo concept will get an initial test via four "pathfinder" satellites that will be the first in the Galileo constellation. Galileo is intended to be complementary with the US GPS system — when all 30 Galileo birds are flying, a receiver with both GS and Galileo capability should enjoy 1-meter positional accuracy, vs. the several meters available through GPS alone, according to the article. There's a video tour of the facility where the pathfinders are being built. "After all the wrangling, the delays, and the furor over cost, Europe's version of GPS is finally starting to take shape. Due for launch in pairs in late 2010 and early 2011, the 'pathfinders' will form a mini-constellation in the sky. They will transmit the navigation signals that demonstrate the European system can become a reality."

23 of 105 comments (clear)

  1. Funding by lazylocomotives · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How are they getting funding? As recently as yesterday I was reading about how it was pretty much an orphaned project because no one wanted to buy what was already available for free (albeit less reliably). I skimmed TFA and found nothing on the matter. No matter how they funded it (unless they sold some babies or something), I'm glad they are moving forward on this. I see this as being really good for Europe, and the space industry in general.

    1. Re:Funding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      (unless they sold some babies or something)

      Don't be so narrow minded. Music industry execs have to eat something.

    2. Re:Funding by Zoxed · · Score: 3, Informative

      > How are they getting funding? As recently as yesterday I was reading about how it was pretty much an orphaned project because no one wanted to buy what was already available for free (albeit less reliably).

      I can not remember the full story, but the industry funding arguments dragged along for years, and in the end the EU took over funding of the project (it was too high profile to fail !!).

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_(satellite_navigation)

    3. Re:Funding by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 3, Informative

      Also, China and Russia have plans to develop their own GPS systems as well. This indicates that there is plenty of squabbling behind the scenes.

    4. Re:Funding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Funding ? Well, in the Netherlands our government just decided to implement variable road taxes. All cars will get a GPS box that registers where you drive, and at what time, and it will automatically send that data to the central government servers.
      The amount of money involved in this taxation plan alone would make it financially feasible to put a complete GPS system up there.

      Of course security related government agencies will also have full access to the database as well. Believe me, it will get funded.

    5. Re:Funding by mirix · · Score: 2, Informative

      Russia already has one, GLONASS

      --
      Sent from my PDP-11
    6. Re:Funding by mirix · · Score: 3, Informative

      No, it covers almost all of earth. A few years ago you would be more correct though.

      It's short a few satellites for whole world coverage right now. Now that Russia has oil dollars running in, the whole world should be back up in a year or so... they've been launching satellites quite frequently the last few years.

      Here is a map of current coverage.. basically everywhere except Antarctica.
      map A few pieces are missing here and there, but it's a far cry from "just russia".

      --
      Sent from my PDP-11
    7. Re:Funding by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Funding ? Well, in the Netherlands our government just decided to implement variable road taxes. All cars will get a GPS box that registers where you drive, and at what time, and it will automatically send that data to the central government servers.
      The amount of money involved in this taxation plan alone would make it financially feasible to put a complete GPS system up there.


      Excellent. Bring in a system to monitor every movement, and make the citizens being monitored pay for it.

  2. general relativity at work by bcrowell · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What I think is really cool about GPS is that without Einstein's theory of general relativity, it wouldn't work. For example, the atomic clocks aboard the satellites run faster because they're higher up in the Earth's gravitational field, and when you're higher in a gravitational field, time flows more quickly. If they didn't compensate for this effect (and a bunch of others), the system wouldn't work at all. Of course you can still find kooks on the internet who think that relativity is all wrong, and have mathematical proofs to that effect. I wonder if those people refrain from using GPS?

    1. Re:general relativity at work by vlm · · Score: 2

      I like the subtle derogatory typecasting for "those people on the internet" (who disagree with widely held science).

      The funny part is the kooks are the ones who "believe" in general relativity... The history of physics is finding new explanations for weird exceptions.

      So, 99.999% of the time, especially for pretty much everything earthbound, Newtonian mechanics works great.

      Unless you happen to be moving at a fraction of the speed of light, in which case special relativity works great. Well, it works great 99.999% of the time.

      SR is great unless you're in a gravity well... Then you need general relativity. Now, the kooks think GR will work 100% of the time, the somewhat more realistic folks think it'll only work 99.999% of the time, we just haven't found that 0.001% yet.

      Sooner or later someone will find that condition where GR doesn't work, and get their Nobel prize, after which history will repeat and the kooks will say the new theory is the final 100% answer, not merely 99.999% ...

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    2. Re:general relativity at work by dkf · · Score: 5, Funny

      I'm struggling to think of a positioning system design that would require GR/SR to work rather than time of flight... I think it would have to be an active transponder system, or some kind of weird gravity wave detector? It would be interesting.

      If we ever need accurate positioning around a black hole, we can at least know that slashdot will be able to tell us how!

      And people call us useless! Hah!

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    3. Re:general relativity at work by thogard · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The cool bit is that it was known that SR/GR would be an issue before they even launched the 1st sat so there are several ways they can adjust the drift in the clocks both in space and on the ground. It is one reason why GPS is good to less than 10 meters while other space based attempts were good for about a half mile or so.

      The observation of GPS clocks and some unexplained issues are why Gravity Probe B was created. Dr. Parkinson was one of the project leaders on both projects.

    4. Re:general relativity at work by OldTOP · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think the point is that without knowledge of GR/GS, the satellites would have had clocks set to run at the same rate as clocks on earth, and the system would not have worked until they figured out why the clocks in orbit ran at a different rate, and then figured out how to calculate the proper correction factor.

      It took a couple of readings of the post at the top of this thread to figure out what it was trying to say.

      --
      The universe was intelligently designed. Unfortunately God was in a hurry so he coded it in Java.
    5. Re:general relativity at work by Agripa · · Score: 2, Informative

      The onboard clocks run slower (and thus need to be corrected) because, for the satellites to be in a geostationary orbit at that altitude (IOW, to keep the same angular velocity than Earth), they need a linear velocity that's much faster than Earth's.

      The GPS satellites orbit at about 12.5 thousand miles with an orbital period of about 12 hours. They are synchronous with the sidereal day and not geostationary.

      The GPS satellite clocks lag by about 7 microseconds per day do to their velocity (special relativity) and lead by about 45 microseconds per day do to their orbital distance from earth's gravity well (general relativity) compared to an earth bound clock.

  3. Re:The EU system won't get used by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    GPS is so standard now, and it is bugfree. It's hard to imagine anyone switching.

    Yeah, "complementary" is a long word, isn't it? I wonder what it means.

  4. Re:Time service by juniorkindergarten · · Score: 2, Informative

    Actually not so. I had to have a survey done to mark some specific spots for calibrating our gps receivers for dgps. He used a Trimble receiver to mark the spot. The spot was within +/- .1 inch and he verified the accuracy using the Russian GLONASS system. I was quite surprised that he actually did this. He said it was standard company procedure.
    There was a point in time where the Russians didn't have the money to maintain the system, however that has changed, and I believe they have been adding sattelites to bring it up to full capacity.

    --
    "Every security scheme that is based on secrets eventually fails." - Steve Jobs
  5. EU Vehicle Tracking Plan by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They are getting funding from the government.

    1) They want to track all vehicles in the EU. Galileo is designed to have much better performance in urban areas than GPS.

    Proposals were on the UK Department for Transport website which detailed the desire to place a satellite positioning tracker with a cellular modem in every vehicle, by law, for the alleged purpose of "road pricing" ; charging for transit on key congested roads at certain times. Road pricing is horseshit because if having to drive on a congested road isn't sufficient deterrent to stop you doing it, then taxation isn't going to achieve it. You could also achieve the same goal much more cheaply with a mandatory active RFID numberplate and a pickup loop on these "key" roads, so Occams razor says that they want something that doesn't just track your use of certain roads.

    2) Military reasons

    Let's face it. Would you want your military dependant on a system that a culture of well known isolationists who live half a world away can switch off at their whim? Neither would I. Independance from US control is the second motivator.

    1. Re:EU Vehicle Tracking Plan by ptbarnett · · Score: 2, Informative

      If the US switched off GPS, then we wouldn't have GPS either.

      GPS is not "switched off". Instead, "Selective Availability" (SA) is turned back on.

      SA introduces random, unpredictable errors into the unencrypted signals broadcast by the GPS satellites. As a result, the accuracy of a position decreases. When the GPS system first went online and SA was still enabled, typical position accuracy was about within 10 meters:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System#Selective_availability

      SA can still be enabled (introducing errors up to 100m), and can be enabled for only certain parts of the globe. But, it only degrades the unencrypted broadcast. The encrypted signal used by the military is not affected.

    2. Re:EU Vehicle Tracking Plan by thogard · · Score: 4, Interesting

      SA was a hack on the early systems and the newest sats don't have that ability at all. The SA adjuster on older sats is a motor driven thing and it has been broken on several sats since before SA was turned off. The new sats have spot beams which can be used to turn off GPS (and may have the ability to introduce random jitter in the outbound signals) in part of the world but the USAF has local GPS jamming that works far better. The problem with turning on SA or blocking GPS in a local area is that having GPS work properly is more useful than having it broken since the US is in a better position to use the technology in a hostile location than the locals are at using it to fight back.

  6. Re:Time service by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A gps time source is only off by a handful of ns. You then want to send that time over NTP and add milliseconds of year?

  7. Re:The EU system won't get used by Seraphim1982 · · Score: 2, Informative

    [quote]Assuming the US stick to their promise to keep SA turned off...[/quote]
    Well, turning on SA would screw airplanes everywhere, and new GPS III satellites aren't going to have SA (this was announced in 2007 so it may have already started), so it is pretty hard to not keep their promise.

  8. Re:Wouldn't it make more sense... by MosesJones · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Only if you trust the US to not screw around with it for political reasons. Imagine Sarah Palin as President, who is to say she wouldn't scramble GPS for France & Germany because they refuse to support her invasion of Canada? How about if they release those algorithms and keys just to US companies thus undermining European ones (TomTom etc) and say that the keys can only be exported in completed devices.

    The issue with GPS is one of trust and control, simply put the Europeans don't trust the US to play nicely and fair in part because they are funding it.

    And if it sounds far fetched... remember the US used to forbid the export of crypto.

    --
    An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
  9. Road pricing is not "horseshit" by Goonie · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Road pricing is horseshit because if having to drive on a congested road isn't sufficient deterrent to stop you doing it, then taxation isn't going to achieve it.

    I agree that mass vehicle tracking raises very serious privacy concerns, but road pricing does reduce traffic. You might be interested in the Transport For London annual report, which indicates that traffic in the city is about 20% lower than it otherwise would be.

    The trouble with your proposal to just track "key" roads is that it encourages traffic to do rat-runs along secondary roads. I experienced this personally when tolling was brought in on a freeway near my house; the alternative routes were suddenly jam-packed with traffic, particularly at off-peak times when they were previously quiet.

    --

    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
    --Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)