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Smart Grid Could Pose Threat To Privacy
Presto Vivace writes "Brian Krebs of the Washington Post reports on a study jointly released Tuesday by the Ontario Information and Privacy Commissioner and the Future of Privacy Forum. It seems that in the process of collecting all that feedback about energy use, utility companies will inevitably collect a great deal of information about us. From the article: 'Instead of measuring energy use at the end of each billing period, smart meters will provide this information at much shorter intervals, the report notes. Even if electricity use is not recorded minute by minute, or at the appliance level, information may be gleaned from ongoing monitoring of electricity consumption such as the approximate number of occupants, when they are present, as well as when they are awake or asleep. For many, this will resonate as a "sanctity of the home" issue, where such intimate details of daily life should not be accessible.'"
If I had a crooked friend at the power company, he could tell me when someone in a house I want to rob usually goes to work and also when they do so on a given day.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
Personally - I really don't care what kind of dodgy information they could gleen from a smart meter. I only really care about the fact that power could (or will here in Oz) cost more.
Actually, I wouldn't have ANY problem at all paying a little extra for these meters (also here in Aus) if they used the data gathered to make a more efficient energy grid and this in turn helped us reduce emissions and made us more environmentally friendly. I would have very big problems with this if it was used to simply line the pockets of companies while not changing or improving in any other way.
Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
The only difference in my at home power usage vs my away power usage is basically a cfl and a TV. I presume that would be drowned out by the AC cycling, the fridge cycling, various fluctuating draws from computers doing updates and interfacing with the internet (ingoing and outgoing, 24/7), etc.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
Personally - I really don't care what kind of dodgy information they could gleen from a smart meter. I only really care about the fact that power could (or will here in Oz) cost more.
Or that nobody has been home for a couple of days so you are probably on vacation and your home would be a good target for robbery! Yeah, that's worth saving a few bucks a month on electricity.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
I turn off all the lights and hide in the basement. Then I use the light from my Nintendo GameBoy DS to play with my cat
Seriously...this is just a minor blip in privacy. Pretty soon everyone's going to have (at least) some solar cells and batteries so the electricity generation AND usage will be completely on site and nobody will know.
600W Solar Cells are available for a couple of hundred dollars... an inverter for another $100... a couple of deep cycle marine batteries... hell for $1000, you can get half your house off the grid in a sunny location. DO IT. NOW.
If I had a crooked friend at the power company, he could tell me when someone in a house I want to rob usually goes to work and also when they do so on a given day.
...or a crooked friend at targets place of work tells you when they get in or the low tech method of who's home by simply driving by and see if a car is parked in driveway... wait... that's possible now w/out a smart grid..... oooh nooo's! I NEED TO GET HOooome NOW!
Yeah, it's never too much of a problem until it affects you.
What if you live in an apartment and have a friend or family member come stay with you for an extended period of time and you suddenly get charged an occupant violation fee because your utilities are being monitored by the complex manager? Seeing at how gung-ho about fines the complex I just moved from is, I don't see that being too far-fetched of a scenario, especially if your utilities are included in your rent.
The eternal struggle of good vs. evil begins within one's self.
Or, more practically, use nighttime power to charge up your ultracapacitor (those will be coming out in full force shortly), which you will then use during the day. It's cost effective and privacy effective.
We must decide... Will we remain Luddites or join the hive mind? Attempting to both leverage technology and leverage privacy is an exercise in futility. Those choosing to straddle the fence rather than embracing one or the other will eventually find that someone else has already decided for them.
Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once
What they need to do is broadcast the present price of electricity and have the meter bill accordingly. Then get the total bill every month. This enables the "consumer" to regulate their usage to reduce cost (smoothing usage as the utilities want). It also avoids the need for large amounts of data sent back. There are usually simple solutions, and the fact that companies don't use the simple solutions generally points to an agenda other than what is claimed.
Anything that is internet-connected and useful poses a threat to your privacy. Period.
I am willing to accept that trade-off, especially since 95% of the privacy stories on YRO are overblown.
Oh no, the power company can determine my peak power usage. They can determine that I leave in the morning and get home at night.
In exchange, the smart grid promises some big benefits. As usual, a trade-off.
Ironically, the word ironically is often used incorrectly.
It'll mask my activities!
Look Judge my house was drawing 2000 watts of power between the hours of 9-10. I couldn't have raped those little kids.
Or leave a note on the door for the milkman.
Or maybe the mail piling up is a sign.
Why is it that guys like you claim the whole counter-terrorism thing is a way for the goverment to scare people, when you scare yourself far better? Watch out, I can track your /. account and tell when you are on holiday.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Smart grid is really needed to provide the ability to support electric cars without taking out the power system, and to provide peak-demand load management for people who use power at peak times (ie. businesses, during the day). People aren't going to run washing machines at 2AM in the summertime to avoid a $0.50 fee and get smelly clothes since nobody will be around to flip the laundry into the dryer.
The problem at the residential level is that other than the electric cars that nobody wants there is minimal value to shifting residential power demand for most people -- their demand is at night, since there aren't many housewives hanging out at home anymore. From what I've read, energy usage isn't the problem -- the problem is providing sufficient power during periods of peak demand. Additionally, many, many places don't have the necessary last-mile power infrastructure to handle the electric cars that are supposedly going to drive increased consumer demand.
Plus, nobody has plugin electric cars, and the excessive costs will keep it that way. Why would you buy a $40,000 car that is similar to a compact car and requires upgrading your home electrical system to own? Just buy a diesel Jetta, which has a far lower TCO. Hell, hybrid diesel-electric cars are probably more practical.
Upgrading the infrastructure of every side street in every city is going to cost billions and take years. And it will meet resistance -- residential neighborhoods with trees and overhead lines will find the new supply lines also mean that the utility company will eviscerate every tree.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Add up those few bucks a month for a year. Also maybe take into account the benefit to society (and thus to you) from improved grid efficiency and fewer blackouts
Now take the value of stuff you'd lose in a robbery. Multiply that by the probability that someone will steal your electricity usage data and use it to rob your house in the same year.
I'd be pretty surprised if the expected cost of this extremely unlikely hypothetical robbery makes smart meters not worthwhile.
I think we're going to have to accept that a number of entities are going to have all kinds of information about us. One potential solution is to create meaningful regulations that balance individual interests/rights against those of corporate entities (corporate in the broadest sense, inc. state entities). Perhaps something along the lines of the confidentiality that exists between an individual and various professionals/clergymen.
Last time i checked most people carry a cellphone which authorities can use to locate your person at all times.
BUT electricity usage can be used to get a warrant to search your home:
"An unusually high electricity bill alerted police to a possible marijuana-growing operation, the warrant said."
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Honestly, what are the chances that someone from the electric company is going to monitor your house, waiting to rob it? OK, now how much greater are they with this smart meter? If I worked at the electric company, and I wanted to rob your house, all I'd need is your address, and I could physically monitor your house to see when you're on vacation.
In fact, this kind of reminds me of the xkcd comic:
http://xkcd.com/538/
You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
for PEBKAC.
In the days of mechanical telephone switches, the telco swore up and down that my mother hadn't paid the bill. When they sent out the guy to carry out the disconnect order, he said she could make one last phone call. She showed him the canceled check and told him he could make it to his boss, or he could disconnect the phone and never show his face on the property again. He said sorry, lady, I got my orders.
The Nuremberg trials invalidated that excuse. (Aaaaand Godwin's Law is validated for this thread)
They tried to make nice later. Mom told them to leave, or face criminal trespass charges. And for the next 16 years, we made do with no telephone. Mom and Dad finally relented, post-Bell breakup, when we had two elderly grandparents who were taking turns being ill.
Now, four carrier buy-outs later, my parents are having "billing trouble" again while the new system owners figure out what the hell they're doing.
There are already tons of service providers we use (bank, credit card, hospital, ISP, cable company, cell phone company, etc.) that have a similar or greater amount of data. How does this pose any new problems?
I'd certainly like to see more clearly defined legal standards for how this kind of data may be used, but I'd assume that the tangled mess we have now would apply to the data that the power companies gather as well.
It's rather easy to find stolen electricity. Total the usage of the meters in an area vs. how much power was used there. If there is a difference of more than the reasonable margin of error, they have ways to isolate where this is very easy (especially since the thieves are constantly using).
With SmartMeters, stealing electricity will be virtually impossible. Within minutes theft of power is spotted and a truck roll can be sent out within the next day (if not sooner) if it continues.
Why can't the power company provide the information the consumer needs, and the consumer has a controller in their house that manages appliances and electricity use (without data feedback)? I don't recall the gas companies asking for control of our thermostats, so why should this be different*? You could opt-in to have your controller send data to the power company (or have the meter reader get the data when he comes around), but there would be no NEED for the power company to get information back. The power company could closely monitor each block if they want more data on what areas are helping with the smart grid effort without concerns over privacy.
I've heard about the smart grid for years and I know I can't be the first to ask this- maybe I'm missing something?
*Brownouts would be the main reason, but if everyone is getting real-time cost information (and set their controllers accordingly), the power companies would see a much better response when they jack up the rates during peak hours. I expect the system will work a lot better once they have a proper feedback loop.
My webcomic
You've already been stabbed 9 times. How much more is one little scratch going to hurt?
I only have one statement: WTF are we doing? Anyone knows prima facie (or on the face of it) that this is a 4th amendment issue. I don't care that they actually caught a few real marijuana growers this way, looking at someone's power use is an illegal search (when used for law enforcement reasons). This is spelled out by the cases involving the previously mentioned Dagy family, and your fish tanks.
The reason this is so obvious is because of where it leads to:
Do we now have to start clearing our energy use through government officials? For instance, if I want to setup a server farm in my apartment, each blazing at 750W each, should I just EXPECT a visit AND SEARCH of my apartment?? No, this is a privacy issue. Simply put: illegal search.
The Dagys--Mom's a homemaker and Dad's a general manager of 21 Shell stations--would like an apology from the Carlsbad Police Department.
The rest of the world would like an apology from the Dagys for their unrestrained use energy. I guess we won't hold our breath either.
How do I mod this guy troll? This poor family was raided by 8 armed men, probably scaring the ____ out of them, and all he can think about it the 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 degree increase they might possibly be causing. (Assuming global warming is caused by California's use of hydroelectric power - which seems unlikely.)
FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
20 of 25 raids that day resulted in illegal drugs being found.
What smelly place did you pull that statistic from?
You are right the law needs to be changed, but also the whole warrant process. "They use lots of electricity" should be rejected by judges. It's not a valid reason to suspect marijuana usage & issue a search warrant
FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
People get upset when you hold them to the lease because leases are ridiculous - you shouldn't need your landlord's permission to have a guest over in your home. Often the full terms aren't even presented to until after you have paid money to reserve the apartment, and you have no real negotiating power. These are unconscionable contracts of adhesion.
Stated like a true parrot.
1) Quit listening to the propaganda from the Big Brother, police state.
2) If you think that potent cannabis is something new, where have you been for the last few millennia? I remember Sativa strains from the 70's and 80's that were far superior to the (often) hydroponically grown strains of today. I hear crap like "It's not like the marijuana you smoked in your college days. It's worse than HEROIN now!" from police spokespeople and the like. Ignorance or malice... it's still false.
3) Cannabis does not have dangerous synergistic effects with alcohol. Maybe you'd peter out on drinking earlier in the evening but it isn't dangerously toxic. (unlike the synergistic effects of, say, barbiturates or tranquilizers with alcohol)
4) Cannabis does not cause psychosis. There are all kinds of studies with false correlations. Just because samples of schizophrenics and psychotics also tend to use cannabis and other drugs doesn't mean it caused, or even exacerbated the imbalance.
You really ought to get out more. Go to a place where a sizable portion of the population uses cannabis every day of their lives (like Canada, for example). They have jobs, businesses, families and homes. They aren't psychotic, they aren't driving dangerously and they aren't dead. Hell, I know people who have been smoking cannabis for over 50 years and it hasn't done them the harm that has been promised.
It's not completely harmless, but harmless enough that it doesn't warrant the prejudice that it gets.
Cannabis itself won't make a loser out of you... it's just that in America, they will see to it that it does.
You are buying electricity, it's not private. DOn't lie it? Make your own electricity.
It's like saying McDonalds tracking you buying a soda from them is someone a loss of privacy.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on