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Colleges Struggling With the Digital Bathroom Wall
theodp writes "Back in the day, anonymous character assassination was confined to permanent marker scrawl in bathroom stalls. But now, thanks to sites like the student-run CollegeACB.com (ACB=Anonymous Confession Board), which can get hundreds of thousands of hits on a good day, TIME reports that anonymous slander is going viral on campus. Even the most elite universities — normally the land of the politically correct — have been struggling with the problem of anonymous gossip sites and their very un-PC posts, which an Amherst dean likens to 'the worst of junior high.' If he thinks things are bad now, wait until the kids start getting creative with Google Sidewiki."
4chan for Harvard?
Or perhaps people still don't like other people behaving like asses? We were raised (well most of us) to treat each other with at least civility. It grates when you read or see something like that. That's the whole idea of peer pressure.
I wish they'd do away with anonymous for trivial/unimportant information posts. It serves no purpose other than to bring out the juvenile in everyone.
The name "political correctness" implies the two bad attributes of the phenomenon: That it's political and that it claims to be correct (without justification and in a field with many differing perspectives). Politeness often also has these attributes, but the realization that a new behavior is in some way similar to an old behavior which one didn't question should not compel anyone to agree with the new behavior in spite of better knowledge. PC is a limitation on discussion and therefore a limitation on thinking, which is unacceptable. So fuck you.
And who is going to determine that a post is trivial / unimportant ?
The fact that Jenkins expresses a sexual preference for the dead is perhaps a valid and important fact for other people to be made aware of, especially if he is currently studying for a Bachelor of Arts in Embalming.
And really, kids start calling each other names in the kindergarten playground. Why does the fact it is posted on the internet make it any more important. Just because it's exposed to perhaps a wider audience doesn't mean discerning people can't simply ignore it for the puerile drivel it is. The only people who will get upset are those who *always* get upset, and there's no helping them anyway, oversensitive bunch of pussies that they are.
Complaints about PC are generally not about any version of right or wrong. They are complaints about being required to use, or avoid, language, which it is claimed might offend someone.
I don't care what language you use and do not want to restrict your use of any particular words. You might care what language I use and seek to impose restrictions. Those two approaches are not equivalents and PC falls into the latter.
Just because two people disagree, it does not mean that both views are equal in some way.
Bill Cosby said some things about his community a while ago that was very un-PC, but he felt it needed to be said. White people have said the same things before (as well as less prominent Blacks) but were then called "racist" or "bigots", then ignored and in the meantime, the problems in the community continued. Of course, all of those problems were always blamed on others and never on the community - ex. not getting education because it was a "white" thing and then being angry and pissed when the only jobs they can get are janitors which then lead to more rancor and beliefs about being oppressed and what not.
And it's not only the African American community it's across all racial and religious lines . Although, it's just that it's PC to say anything about white males.
It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
Political correctness is nothing but a bunch of random rules of communication setup as a system of traps for people who dare speak their mind. It doesn't make any sense except to derail communication from its intended purpose.
When you get white Americans calling European nationals who happen to be black 'African Americans' it's gone too far.
I'm so going to whore karma with this obligatory Penny-Arcade reference.
Mod redundant at will.
Hey, there were some comments about you too!
Its very easy to advice others to ignore.
Political Correctness is just a new version of Politeness
Political Correctness is not polite. In fact, it is the opposite. PC speak at its core is about deception, and as such is one of the greatest forms of insult to any listener that can read between the lines.
What's the real reason for the schools' objection to it? I always thought it was because it destroyed school property. If it's virtual, then as a student you have to seek it out to see it, rather than seeing it in the bathroom stalls whether you like it or not. Sounds like it was really about control. They want control over what students say to each other at all times. Heaven forbid students organize in various ways without permission.
The difference is that politeness is a style that evolved naturally. Political correctness is an invented newspeak.
I am very interested in seeing an example of an American calling a European national 'African American.' I am not doubting you or anything, I'd just like an example to show others.
Maybe instead stop being so bloody touchy about stupid things stupid people write? What is it we've told our children for ages - "stop caring, don't give it attention"?
That's a nice theory, but it's a really hard thing for people, especially immature people, to do.
Teenagers in particular are extremely sensitive to criticism, and often respond poorly. Spend some time watching the interactions of a group of, say, 14 year-old girls on Facebook. Vicious doesn't begin to describe it. People in general are willing to say things behind the shield of their computer that they would never say face to face. Add to that some low self-esteem and peer approval dependency and you have a recipe for a whole lot of heartache. Kids have always been mean to one another, and always will, but online interaction raises it to a new level.
Kids in college are a little more mature and self-confident, but only a little. And there's a lot of variability, so you can expect these online fora to be filled with the spew of the least mature, the least secure and the most vicious.
It will indeed be interesting to see how society evolves in response. Hopefully we'll all develop a thicker skin and learn to be more forgiving of all sorts of errors. That would be a good solution, and would actually make the world a better place than it used to be. Another possibility is that the next generation is going to grow up almost universally traumatized and defensive.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
It's a dilemma inherent in our choices of technologies.
If we allow anonymity, people will
(a) Use it for good: whistleblowing on evildoers;
(b) Use it for evil: anonymously libelling the innocent;
If we prohibit anonymity, people will
(a) Use it for good: standing by their assertions;
(b) Use it for evil: track every word you say, stifling whistleblowers and witnesses.
There is no right answer. There are only choices between problems.
-kgj
Kids have always been mean to one another, and always will, but online interaction raises it to a new level.
I don't particularly think it "raises the level", but I'm sure that it (the online-ness) makes things much more visible to adults - which is of course when they become horrible. (Mind, I for one think this is horrible in general but in particular cases I'm of course not horrified by things of which I'm unaware). Parents, guardians, schools, etc. must combat this problem exactly the same way as before - by taking time with their children, individually, not by spying or censoring public forums.
The worlds not PC, so they can get as up tight as they want about people writing what they feel but in the end they have to grow up and realize that the world isn't Politically Correct.
"Really, it's futile in the long term to try and ban "harassment comments" or whatever you want to call it, unless you want to really compromise free speech and become worse than China."
Sure, because making infantile comments about other people is just as important as being able to speak freely about your government's policies.
"Struggling with the problem"
Can someone explain to me what exactly the problem is ? Or is there something about colleges that makes them massively dislike free speech ? Okay, I know profs do, they think they know better and so have the right to force their opinion on others. Which is fine in class, not so fine elsewhere. So why would any rational person find this a problem ?
(Today's "look it up" word is: foment)
There are other important reasons for anonymous speech: I am more than willing to stand behind what I'm writing here, but I want you to answer me here, based on my arguments in the current context, instead of taking my arguments out of context and using them to discredit me that way. I also do not want to be reduced to my current point of view. Published information is archived everywhere, but the mode of communication on message boards is more like oral conversation. I might express opinions that I revise, even as a consequence of the discussion, but a search engine will always bring back my old opinion.
Adults do it too, the only reason it becomes "horrible" when kids do it is because kids tend to be less discrete so it become EMBARRASSING. Otherwise I don't think most adults would care.
Owner Peter Frank, a sophomore at Wesleyan University... runs ACB out of his dorm room. The 19-year-old English major... "I'm untouchable," he says.
You don't sound untouchable Pete, you just sound stupid. Especially after letting time.com publish your full name, picture, the city you live in, AND the school you attend. I am thinking that the next year is going to be very educational for you once your site slanders a couple of people to the point that they lose control and decide to take a trip to Middletown with your picture in hand.
Sure, because making infantile comments about other people is just as important as being able to speak freely about your government's policies.
The entire point of free speech and all human rights is that they can't be categorized as more or less important. Once you start making them relative to each other, you enter the realm of what is often called 'the tyranny of the majority' whereas if the majority decides that your right is unimportant, or unacceptable, it vanishes.
This being said, libel is illegal and if you are a victim of it, you are well within your right to take your case to court. I think society would work better if we maintained that libelous statements must be false though.
Mind the frickin' laser...
"Political Correctness is just a new version of Politeness."
Horse Shit.
Polite society has observed pretty much the same conventions for centuries now. Politeness hasn't changed much at all. Change is slow, and very gradual.
Politically correct is a fucking bludgeon used mostly by the left to beat down anyone who disagrees with their point of view.
Need an example? A polite person won't call a queer a queer - he will avoid the subject, or use less inflammatory terms. But, a polite person will STILL vote his conscience, and when the subject of homosexuality comes up, he will voice his opposition to it.
"Politically correct" bullshit makes it a crime for anyone to speak out against queer sumbitches who want to get married, and take over the churches, schools, military, or whatever else offends them. Opposition to homosexuality becomes a "hate crime".
Don't ever confuse "polite" and "politically correct".
Polite pretends that the queer isn't a cocksucker. Politically correct demands approval of cocksuckers.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
I understand the slippery slope of these issues, but at the same time it's silly to pretend there aren't differences of degree even if as a practical matter we have to treat them the same in law.
"Politically correct" bullshit makes it a crime for anyone to speak out against queer sumbitches who want to get married, and take over the churches, schools, military, or whatever else offends them. Opposition to homosexuality becomes a "hate crime".
Don't ever confuse "polite" and "politically correct".
Polite pretends that the queer isn't a cocksucker. Politically correct demands approval of cocksuckers.
As an incorrigible cocksucking queer sumbitch myself, I would like to take this opportunity to offer to you my sincerest gratitude for your honesty. My partner and I have been denied housing by "polite" people here in Texas who are always be forced to go far out of their way to find some valid excuse to support their obviously bogus decision. Everyone in the room knows the truth, but for some reason, the mores of politeness demand that no one verbally acknowledge it.
Fuck that. It's much better when people just come out and say what they believe. I'm old enough and wise enough now that I truly don't give a shit what people think of me, but they should at least have the courage not to hide their feelings behind a veneer of "politeness." I can respect them for that.
I can understand that. Maybe someone will mod you up. ;^)
I've been denied service a few times in my life. Lame excuses like, "We just ran out of beer" is bullshit. If you were really out of beer, all the rest of the customers would have been on their way OUT as I walked IN. Just tell me that you don't want no sailors hanging around your bar, no white people hanging around your Bar-B-Que, or that you don't like Americans in general.
There's a lot to be said for honesty.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
Natural selection would mean that it would be ok for me to beat you to death. However in civilized nations we create rules that the majority of people believe are for the greater good. These rules general serve to protect those those that need protecting.
Reality? You mean the reality where even the suckiest moron on a game show gets some prize just for participating? The reality where in little league scores are no longer displayed because it may hurt some wee ones' feelings to see they lose 0:200? The reality where we spend more time coming up with euphemisms for "fat", "dumb" and $racial_slur instead of trying to fight the underlying problem?
Reality is turned into a feelgood world where we don't solve problems but instead try to ignore them.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Verbal aggression and physical aggression both have the same root and both have the same effects. Disregarding the effects of one leaves half of the problem unresolved.
I do agree there are worse things in life than bullying. But let's stick to the world seen from a teenager's perspective. They don't cope with an assholde boss. They will later, but not now. They also don't cope with aggressive drivers, not till they turn 16 (in US) or 18 or even 21 (in some countries). And here we don't talk about Facebook, we talk about dedicated school websites/areas, where the message target is your entire class/school, not a few friends you can block.
Now about that good-bye letter you mentioned. The Suicide rate because of such things amongst teens is surprisingly high. And whereas you can't help getting dumped sometimes, you can (or should be able to) do something against bullying and targeted verbal/physical aggression in schools. And by action I don't mean throw the offender in jail, but counsel the offender and at the same time silently remove the offending entry/post from the website. As for the seriousness of the offense and its implications, let me put an analogy together...
Let's say there's a corporate forum which all your co-workers access. And it's anonymous and unmoderated. Now I, covered by anonimity, go there and write "Shakrai has a small dick, finishes in 2 minutes and can't satisfy a woman ", you wouldn't like it. You could just go ahead and ignore my entry and even the forum altogether, but your co-workers won't. They will show each other this entry and some (most, from my experience) would assume it's true. And all of a sudden, you are going to be the lame hero of the company, the guy everyone makes fun of. People will cease to call you, you will feel isolated and so on; and when the poor soul who hasn't read my entry comes and sits next to you or talks to you, there's always going to be someone who will gladly (and viciously) point the uninformed guy to my entry. Gossip goes fast, gossip goes far. And before you know it, a large part of your life (that would be work environment) would shred to tiny pieces.
Now, you are entitled to sue my ass and get a large amount of money from my misdemeanor, but surprise!, you don't have anyone to sue, because Internet anonymity protects me, and the webmaster doesn't give a shit about your protests (forum outsourced to Vanuatu Islands, good luck reaching someone). OK, maybe you would find a solution, because as an adult you are resourceful, but what can you do as a 14-17 year old kid?
Finally, you say there are lots of help channels available. That's reactive thinking. You wait for the problem to happen and then attempt to fix it. How about being proactive for a change? Identify offenders, counsel THEM, remove the offending post. If cyber-bullies know that their entries are moderated and won't see the daylight if they are aggressive, they will cease doing it.
How about freedom of speech? Freedom of speech applies to identifiable people, to those who are ready to take the heat if they are proven as liars. Not to the so-called "anonymous cowards" (no pun intended) who hide behind the iron curtain of Internet to harm others, willingly or not. Therefore, if I could be identified in the above mentioned imaginary forum, then yes, that forum can be un-moderated and I would be held responsible for my actions.
...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
And here we don't talk about Facebook, we talk about dedicated school websites/areas, where the message target is your entire class/school, not a few friends you can block.
School websites are managed by the school and can be held to whatever standards the school deems appropriate.
And by action I don't mean throw the offender in jail, but counsel the offender and at the same time silently remove the offending entry/post from the website.
Sorry, I disagree. What you've done there is to make a mountain out of a molehill. The offender is now liable to mock the offended even more because of the perception that they can't handle it.
Let's say there's a corporate forum which all your co-workers access. And it's anonymous and unmoderated. Now I, covered by anonimity, go there and write "Shakrai has a small dick, finishes in 2 minutes and can't satisfy a woman ", you wouldn't like it.
Worse things than that have been said about me at work. I'm still here....
You could just go ahead and ignore my entry and even the forum altogether, but your co-workers won't.
If my co-workers are so immature that they are going to give weight to such a post then I'd say that they are the ones with the problem, not me.
People will cease to call you, you will feel isolated and so on
People ceasing to call me would make me very happy at work ;) It would actually harm them more than it would harm me, as my role (IT) is one that people depend on. I'll grant that isn't the case for every job, but even still, if your co-workers are going to give weight to such a post then they are the ones with the problem.
Gossip goes fast, gossip goes far. And before you know it, a large part of your life (that would be work environment) would shred to tiny pieces.
I'm sorry but I disagree. Bad-mouthing, anonymous or otherwise, can't "shred" your life unless you allow it to do so.
Identify offenders, counsel THEM, remove the offending post. If cyber-bullies know that their entries are moderated and won't see the daylight if they are aggressive, they will cease doing it.
So your solution is censorship and the abandonment of unmoderated discussion forums? What are you going to do when your 'offender' tells you to fuck off and reverts to his previous behavior?
How about freedom of speech? Freedom of speech applies to identifiable people, to those who are ready to take the heat if they are proven as liars.
Again, I disagree. Anonymous speech is critically important. People have the right to express political views anonymously. In America that's gone all the way to our Supreme Court, which has held that anonymous political speech is protected. There are also other contexts where the ability to speak anonymously is important -- imagine being a rape victim seeking support and having to disclose your identity before being allowed to post. Think that might deter you from seeking out the support that you need?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
I agree, we lose people to preventable suicide that could become great, healthy, contributors to society. And we all know that some of those bullies grow up to be in a position of power and do things we hate. There are Hitlers, and there are Ghandis.
Now I don't know exactly what happend or how the condition is called (it's not a nice thing to avidly ask them for details), ...
Here is a contributing reason why people continue to be so sensitive (which bullies just eat up). If someone has a medical condition, one that is so obvious that it causes physical defects, why is not nice to ask what condition they have? We all have our inadequacies, and trying to pretend they don't exist does nothing to help us cope with life in public. Hiding behind secrecy only makes the "coming out" more of an issue. Kids love to uncover and spread secrets.
For weaker people, this might lead to psychological problems and ultimately suicide
So what's your solution? Stifle free speech so that a bunch of pussies will feel better about themselves, and not get their poor feelings hurt? I don't want to see anyone commit suicide over something they read online, but the best solution to this "problem" certainly doesn't involve censorship.
Yes, I was depressed for most of my life up until a few years back when I finally was able to cure myself of it. I know what it's like to be teased and picked on and to hate life. If someone is getting picked on all the time, then the real solution is for him to "man up" and grow a spine and thicker skin, instead of trying to neuter and gag everyone else.
It's a little while since I was 14, but I remember the girls of my age being incredibly viscous, with hair-pulling and attacking with sharp teeth and nails being a common way of interacting within the group. If they're now insulting each other over the Internet, then it sounds quite tame by comparison. Of course, when they were near any of their parents, they were always sweet, charming and polite. As the other poster said: putting things online just makes them more visible to adults.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
If they're now insulting each other over the Internet, then it sounds quite tame by comparison
You've got that backwards, because you don't understand teenage girls. Pulled hair and a few scratches they can bounce back from. Words produce far more lasting damage, for multiple reasons.
One of the biggest is that on Facebook these fights happen in public. It's not just a handful of people nearby that hear the hurtful comments and maybe a little gossip that gets passed around fifth-hand. The entire school reads it, nearly in real-time. SMS fights aren't nearly as bad.
Relative anonymity also facilitates dirt-digging, and if you think face-to-face rumors spread fast, on-line they're lightning.
Another is, seriously, the LACK of the physical option. At the point in a fight where the nails would come out, online there's nothing to do but dig deeper, looking for the most vicious lie possible or -- even worse -- the most vicious truth possible. Whether lie or truth, the entire school will know it in minutes.
Another big problem is the "flash mob" effect. Flash mobs are usually planned, but among teenage girls on Facebook, they arise spontaneously. A personal fight (often triggered by something *completely* innocuous, because a comment unaccompanied by body language was taken wrong) quickly spirals out of control, bringing dozens of people piling on whoever appears to be losing.
And when it gets REALLY bad is when the boys join in, something that hardly ever happens in meatspace catfights. When an ex-boyfriend decided to toss his favorite anti-target anecdote into the mix, for all of the other girls to pounce on, all of the rivalry gets amped up by hormones and puppy love gone wrong. Kids get emotionally destroyed. Seriously.
Anecdotally, I see these on-line fights triggering many suicides. I expect in a few years we'll see studies showing that kids who make heavy use of Facebook, etc. kill themselves in significantly greater numbers, and suffer from more mental illness.
There's nothing to be done but to see what happens, to see how society will learn to deal with this new communication channel that seriously changes the dynamics of social interaction among young people who are only just learning how to interact. Hopefully, responsible parents will keep their more vulnerable children off of Facebook, etc.
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