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Modeling the Economy As a Physics Problem

University of Utah physicist Tim Garrett has published a study that approaches the economy and its relation to global warming as a physics problem — and comes to some controversial conclusions: that rising carbon dioxide emissions cannot be stabilized unless the world's economy collapses or society builds the equivalent of one new nuclear power plant each day. The study was panned by economists and was rejected by several journals before its acceptance in the journal Climatic Change. "[Garrett discovered that] Throughout history, a simple physical constant... links global energy use to the world's accumulated economic productivity, adjusted for inflation. So it isn't necessary to consider population growth and standard of living in predicting society's future energy consumption and resulting carbon dioxide emissions. ... 'I'm not an economist, and I am approaching the economy as a physics problem,' Garrett says. 'I end up with a global economic growth model different than they have.' Garrett treats civilization like a 'heat engine' that 'consumes energy and does "work" in the form of economic production, which then spurs it to consume more energy,' he says. That constant is 9.7 (plus or minus 0.3) milliwatts per inflation-adjusted 1990 dollar. So if you look at economic and energy production at any specific time in history, 'each inflation-adjusted 1990 dollar would be supported by 9.7 milliwatts of primary energy consumption,' Garrett says. ... Perhaps the most provocative implication of Garrett's theory is that conserving energy doesn't reduce energy use, but spurs economic growth and more energy use."

16 of 452 comments (clear)

  1. Its a population crunch by MichaelSmith · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We have to stop somewhere. At six billion or six trillion. It has to happen. The Heinlein fan in me says this will happen with war and starvation. Its not that hard to imagine, it happens all the time.

    Or we can learn to regulate our population, as the Chinese are trying to do. Even in the last 30 years there has been a recognition that high standards of living reduce fertility. But have China and India gone too far for this to work? I am sure the US nearly did, because you have to wear high birth rates and high energy consumption at the same time for a while (the 1950s) for it to work. The same peak would put the energy consumption of 10 billion USA or AU people in China alone.

    Don't ask me for help. I'll be starting a farm on Ganymede.

    1. Re:Its a population crunch by couchslug · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "The Heinlein fan in me says this will happen with war and starvation."

      The trick is to be the killers instead of the dead, and the fed instead of the starving. Should it come down to that, I suspect we'll find it easy to shitcan idealism and kill our competition.

      Given a choice between theirs and ours, I'll choose ours.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    2. Re:Its a population crunch by Toonol · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm glad I lived in the last century before the human race realized that it was going to die out because of the inbuilt greed of our genes which multiplied by our intelligence guarantee our extinction.

      A common sentiment, shared by every generation since civilization began.

    3. Re:Its a population crunch by russotto · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Kind of missing the point of the article. The population is a function of the energy consumption which directly correlates to the economy. Ergo; reducing the population will lead to decreased energy consumption, and a collapse in the economy. This is the fundemental problem here, economic growth is directly tied to energy usage. The only way out is a radical reform of the fundemental way our economy is _defined_.

      All of which is completely obvious and has been pointed out before (I know, because I'm one of those who has pointed it out). Usual response is some blather about alternative energy (easily shown to be inadequate, especially given other environmental constraints), conservation (law of diminishing returns), or lifestyle changes (kills economy, and besides, won't happen without major force). Usually, at some point the environmentalist will give up and claim the realist is just being too much of a pessimist.

    4. Re:Its a population crunch by Muros · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Indeed, reform of the way the economy is defined is needed. A collapse in "economic growth" need not necessarily lead to a drastic decrease in living standards. Vast amounts of energy are used in the world today to produce items with a lifetime far shorter than they could be. High quality engineering and craftsmanship could, at a slightly higher cost, produce items (furniture, cars, refrigerators, whatever) with lifetimes of many decades instead of a few years. Yeah, so there would be a lot less employment available as a result, both directly in manufacturing and indirectly in waste recycling, but people wouldn't need to buy as much either, so you could conceivably achieve shorter working hours and lessened energy/materials consumption (lessened economic activity) with little effect on people's quality of life. I'd even say it would be a better quality of life if everybody had to work less. The only way I could see to make something like that happen however would be massive regulation of manufacturing to prevent the production of garbage. I don't believe the problem with econmic activity is the use of resources, I think it is more a matter of how much we just waste. Leaving a light bulb turned on overnight is nothing compared to the amount of energy used to create all the plastic rubbish in landfills around the world.

    5. Re:Its a population crunch by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Thinning the herd" is much more effective and efficient when governments do it to their own people than when they go to war with other countries. Yes, hundreds of thousands died in WWII, but the Ottoman Turks killed a million Armenians during the prior decade. 30 million Chinese were killed by Mao Zedong, and 50 million more died of starvation as he took over the means of production and reorganized the farmlands. 25 million in the Soviet Union were killed by Stalin's government. The Germans lost 5 million soldiers during the war, but slaughtered 12 million within their own country, 6 million just for being Jewish. 2 million were killed in Cambodia when Pol Pot's government took over.

      So the best method of reducing population would be to set up a global despotic government. I see that's what they're planning in Copenhagen, so I guess our beneficent leaders have the situation in hand.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
  2. Adjusting for Inflation by Shadyman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The problem is that you can't adjust for inflation too far back, because the "basket of goods and services" that inflation is measured upon changes every now and then, so the cost of everyday items now can't really be measured against the cost of items in 1920. Some things that were necessities in 1920 aren't anymore, and some things that are necessities now weren't even invented. The most you're going to get is a very rough estimation of what the dollar was worth.

  3. Re:Interesting by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    While this is probably largely true, human demands do seem to expand to fill available resources, our demands aren't infinite.

    The marginal value of your first dollar, or 10 dollars(depending on local cost of living), is enormous. You get to eat. The marginal value of your 1,000,001th dollar is a great deal smaller.

    There isn't a fixed "ceiling" above which people demand no more energy; but there are a number of "floors" below which things get really ugly, really fast(like, "Rwandan Genocide" bad, not just "I want a cooler yacht" bad). If you can increase efficiency enough, it should be possible to reduce the amount of damage that needs to be done in order to head off genuinely bad outcomes.

    There is also a second factor to consider: When people are desperate(or ignorant, or stupid), they will be willing to consume their capital to survive. Destroying fish stocks by catching juveniles, farming harder and harder until the topsoil erodes, polluting water supplies, eating the seed corn, deforestation to make charcoal(on the subject of deforestation, compare the Dominican Republic with Haiti. Same island, same location, one country has its forests, one doesn't. The Dominican Republic is merely poor. Haiti is deeply fucked.), and so forth. Even in strict economic terms(i.e. setting the intrinsic worth of "the environment", beyond its practical utility, at 0) this is a stupid plan. If the alternative is starving, though, people will do it anyway. If efficiency increases, fewer people will be desperate enough to eat their capital instead of their income.

  4. We already knew that by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The climate is headed for a crash, and there's nothing that anybody can do about it.

    Sorry, but that's the truth.

    And one more thing: humans of the future will curse your bones. That is all, carry on.

    --
    Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
  5. Re:Simple Solution by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Which is why Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union are environmental Garden of Edens.

    --
    "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
  6. Society Expands Up to Constraints of the System by reporter · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Physicist Tim Garret is correct when he observes "that conserving energy doesn't reduce energy use, but spurs economic growth and more energy use". That is another way of saying that society grows and expands up to the constraints of the system.

    When we conserve energy, we can and do use the saved energy for other activities. "conservation" is not really conservation if we promptly use the saved energy for another activity.

    Consider the food supply. The population has now reached a size at which the current amount of food is not sufficient for everyone to eat well. So, scientists at ADM and other companies are trying to invent new ways to increase food production. Suppose that the scientists succeed and that we increase food production by 20%. The population, enjoying this additional food, now grows by an additonal 20%: we return to the original problem.

    In the long run, the 4 horsemen will eventually impose their own solution on humankind. Many people will die in the process.

    Inevitably, some Slashdotter will claim that yet-to-be discovered technology will always provide a fix for the problem. Believing that yet-to-be discovered technology will be discovered (and will be the salvation) is exactly equivalent to believing the numerous claims of religion. Often, the same Slashdotter who is atheist does not hestitate to believe in yet-to-be discovered technology. A hypocrite, a fool, or both?

    1. Re:Society Expands Up to Constraints of the System by UncleFluffy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Inevitably, some Slashdotter will claim that yet-to-be discovered technology will always provide a fix for the problem. Believing that yet-to-be discovered technology will be discovered (and will be the salvation) is exactly equivalent to believing the numerous claims of religion. Often, the same Slashdotter who is atheist does not hestitate to believe in yet-to-be discovered technology. A hypocrite, a fool, or both?

      The difference is that those people who believe that technology will allow the human race to overcome its limits have been proven right multiple times over the historical record. Those people who believe that $deity will come down and make everything right for us have less of a track record of successes.

      --

      What would Lemmy do?

    2. Re:Society Expands Up to Constraints of the System by The_Steel_General · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not to answer for dintlu, and I'm really going to talk about famine rather than starvation per se, but:

      "They're being prevented from feeding themselves" is not a bad answer. In Somalia in 1992, the people most affected by the famine, perversely, were the farmers, who were also part of the lowest social class.

      In any case, the point is that famines are caused not by a lack of food, but by problems distributing food.

      Food distribution is done poorly by governments that don't have their people's best interests in mind, e.g. because the government is a dictatorship or oligarchy and doesn't need to pay attention to what the people want. Conversely, famines don't happen in democratic societies with a free press - democracies have to respect the will of the people, and a free press would let the people know if food distribution is failing.

      All of this is according to the work of Amartya Sen, who won a Nobel Prize for it.

      TSG

  7. One nuclear power plant a day by dominion · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "or society builds the equivalent of one new nuclear power plant each day."

    I don't have a problem with this. Let's get building.

    Eventually we'll turn towards the sun, and nuclear will only be our failsafe, but I have no problem with it filling in the gaps.

  8. Re:Gee wizz.. by Timothy+Brownawell · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Economists routinely use highly complicated mathematical models on stuff like this, and are just as routinely criticised for it because their simplifying assumptions aren't close enough to reality. Then along comes this bloke and uses a model that's not even based on human behaviour: the economy as a heat engine. No wonder he's been panned. Criticise economic models all you like, but at least the modern ones* have a foundation in human behaviour.

    So economists are trying to figure things out from first principles, and having a rather difficult time because their necessary simplifying assumptions could possibly be simplifying away things that actually matter. While this guy seems to be looking at the economy as a black box, saying "it looks like this input and this output have always been related in the past, so what happens if they stay related in the future?". He's trying to come up with laws ("this is what happens") rather than theories ("this is why it happens"), and doesn't really need a foundation in human behavior. Much like we can know what gravity does, without actually having found a graviton or whatever current theories say we should find.

  9. Right, humans are uniquely bad by sean.peters · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern.

    It's a side issue, but this is complete hogwash. Every organism will increase as much as possible - they don't "instinctively" come to equilibrium, equilibrium is forced on them by competition. In the event that an organism becomes so well adapted that it dominates its competition, its numbers will increase until it dies off as a result of increasing beyond the carrying capacity of the environment. A good example: snow geese. For many years, snow goose populations were very low because their natural habitats were limited. But then, beginning about in the 70's, two things happened: 1) snowy owl populations increased in the far north, which had the effect of increasing snow goose nesting success by driving away snow goose predators, and 2) snow geese learned to exploit a new (to them) resource: agricultural waste. As a result of those two factors, the snow goose population exploded. Unfortunately, however, it didn't "come to equilibrium" with its environment - snow geese are now so overpopulated that they're destroying both their spring breeding grounds and their wintering grounds. Unless the population can be gotten under control through hunting (which so far has had pretty limited success), a population crash is inevitable

    There are other examples of the same phenomenon in other species, but what's relevant here is that humans are just an extreme example. We are so tremendously adaptable that we've been able to colonize nearly every environment on the surface of the earth, and have so outstripped every other creature that our population has grown too much for the earth to support it. That's a real problem, and I don't mean to pooh-pooh it. But I do get annoyed when I hear more examples of the meme that "animals (and primitive humans) lived in harmony with the earth, but evil (modern) man has forgotten how to do this". It's just not true - all species expand to fill all available space in whatever niche they occupy.