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Modeling the Economy As a Physics Problem

University of Utah physicist Tim Garrett has published a study that approaches the economy and its relation to global warming as a physics problem — and comes to some controversial conclusions: that rising carbon dioxide emissions cannot be stabilized unless the world's economy collapses or society builds the equivalent of one new nuclear power plant each day. The study was panned by economists and was rejected by several journals before its acceptance in the journal Climatic Change. "[Garrett discovered that] Throughout history, a simple physical constant... links global energy use to the world's accumulated economic productivity, adjusted for inflation. So it isn't necessary to consider population growth and standard of living in predicting society's future energy consumption and resulting carbon dioxide emissions. ... 'I'm not an economist, and I am approaching the economy as a physics problem,' Garrett says. 'I end up with a global economic growth model different than they have.' Garrett treats civilization like a 'heat engine' that 'consumes energy and does "work" in the form of economic production, which then spurs it to consume more energy,' he says. That constant is 9.7 (plus or minus 0.3) milliwatts per inflation-adjusted 1990 dollar. So if you look at economic and energy production at any specific time in history, 'each inflation-adjusted 1990 dollar would be supported by 9.7 milliwatts of primary energy consumption,' Garrett says. ... Perhaps the most provocative implication of Garrett's theory is that conserving energy doesn't reduce energy use, but spurs economic growth and more energy use."

28 of 452 comments (clear)

  1. Its a population crunch by MichaelSmith · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We have to stop somewhere. At six billion or six trillion. It has to happen. The Heinlein fan in me says this will happen with war and starvation. Its not that hard to imagine, it happens all the time.

    Or we can learn to regulate our population, as the Chinese are trying to do. Even in the last 30 years there has been a recognition that high standards of living reduce fertility. But have China and India gone too far for this to work? I am sure the US nearly did, because you have to wear high birth rates and high energy consumption at the same time for a while (the 1950s) for it to work. The same peak would put the energy consumption of 10 billion USA or AU people in China alone.

    Don't ask me for help. I'll be starting a farm on Ganymede.

    1. Re:Its a population crunch by Puff_Of_Hot_Air · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Kind of missing the point of the article. The population is a function of the energy consumption which directly correlates to the economy. Ergo; reducing the population will lead to decreased energy consumption, and a collapse in the economy. This is the fundemental problem here, economic growth is directly tied to energy usage. The only way out is a radical reform of the fundemental way our economy is _defined_. Sobering research indeed.

    2. Re:Its a population crunch by lobiusmoop · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist." -Kenneth Boulding

      On a related note, the U.S. Census Bureau World Population Clock just ticked over to 6.8 billion a few minutes ago.

      --
      "I bless every day that I continue to live, for every day is pure profit."
    3. Re:Its a population crunch by Toonol · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm glad I lived in the last century before the human race realized that it was going to die out because of the inbuilt greed of our genes which multiplied by our intelligence guarantee our extinction.

      A common sentiment, shared by every generation since civilization began.

    4. Re:Its a population crunch by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yeah the first time I saw the "Agent Smith Speech" in the Matrix I thought they had hit that nail a little to close to the head for comfort

      "I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure."

      Sadly he got one thing wrong, we do find an equilibrium, but only by mass slaughter or by having disease run rampant when we pack ourselves in too closely like rats. Just look at how much we "thinned the herd" with WW I and WW II. i think the only reason we haven't already had WW III is that the bomb makes such worldwide conflict too dangerous even for the truly vicious to seriously contemplate. But I have no doubt when the resources get really tight if we don't find a way to get off this rock and get more things will get REALLY nasty.

      Of course if you try to limit population growth you will get screams of racism and classism and the PC police will put an end to that. So you get what we have now, the march of the morons, where the stupid breed like bunnies while the smart have few kids if at all. I wonder if in 500 years Idiocracy will be looked upon as a prophetic documentary?

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    5. Re:Its a population crunch by plopez · · Score: 4, Interesting

      1) as people get wealthier they don't need as many children to "run the farm", so to speak. They in fact become an economic liability.

      2) As people get wealthier their access to health care, proper sanitation etc. becomes easier. This increases the survival rate of their children which reduces the number compensatory pregnancies. In other words, when a child dies a woman's friends, neighbors, relatives, coworkers etc. decide to "have just one more, just in case".

      Europe, the US and Japan are all examples of this.

      --
      putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
    6. Re:Its a population crunch by russotto · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Kind of missing the point of the article. The population is a function of the energy consumption which directly correlates to the economy. Ergo; reducing the population will lead to decreased energy consumption, and a collapse in the economy. This is the fundemental problem here, economic growth is directly tied to energy usage. The only way out is a radical reform of the fundemental way our economy is _defined_.

      All of which is completely obvious and has been pointed out before (I know, because I'm one of those who has pointed it out). Usual response is some blather about alternative energy (easily shown to be inadequate, especially given other environmental constraints), conservation (law of diminishing returns), or lifestyle changes (kills economy, and besides, won't happen without major force). Usually, at some point the environmentalist will give up and claim the realist is just being too much of a pessimist.

    7. Re:Its a population crunch by Muros · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Indeed, reform of the way the economy is defined is needed. A collapse in "economic growth" need not necessarily lead to a drastic decrease in living standards. Vast amounts of energy are used in the world today to produce items with a lifetime far shorter than they could be. High quality engineering and craftsmanship could, at a slightly higher cost, produce items (furniture, cars, refrigerators, whatever) with lifetimes of many decades instead of a few years. Yeah, so there would be a lot less employment available as a result, both directly in manufacturing and indirectly in waste recycling, but people wouldn't need to buy as much either, so you could conceivably achieve shorter working hours and lessened energy/materials consumption (lessened economic activity) with little effect on people's quality of life. I'd even say it would be a better quality of life if everybody had to work less. The only way I could see to make something like that happen however would be massive regulation of manufacturing to prevent the production of garbage. I don't believe the problem with econmic activity is the use of resources, I think it is more a matter of how much we just waste. Leaving a light bulb turned on overnight is nothing compared to the amount of energy used to create all the plastic rubbish in landfills around the world.

  2. Physics problem? by illumastorm · · Score: 4, Funny

    So, is the economy or global warming treated as a perfect sphere?

    1. Re:Physics problem? by Eudial · · Score: 4, Funny

      Ah, but I found the solution to global warming. If we model people as an ideal gas confined to a box, increasing the number of people while keeping volume and pressure constant will decrease the temperature!

      --
      GAAH! MY PRINTER IS ON FIRE!!! PUT IT OUT! PUT IT OUT!
  3. Somewhat like safer cars by mangastudent · · Score: 5, Interesting

    conserving energy doesn't reduce energy use, but spurs economic growth and more energy use

    This fits with an observation by insurance companies (or at least mine, USAA) that building safer cars results in people continuing to drive them to their preferred safety margin. We still end up with about as many crashes (but injuries are less).

  4. Re:Interesting by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    While this is probably largely true, human demands do seem to expand to fill available resources, our demands aren't infinite.

    The marginal value of your first dollar, or 10 dollars(depending on local cost of living), is enormous. You get to eat. The marginal value of your 1,000,001th dollar is a great deal smaller.

    There isn't a fixed "ceiling" above which people demand no more energy; but there are a number of "floors" below which things get really ugly, really fast(like, "Rwandan Genocide" bad, not just "I want a cooler yacht" bad). If you can increase efficiency enough, it should be possible to reduce the amount of damage that needs to be done in order to head off genuinely bad outcomes.

    There is also a second factor to consider: When people are desperate(or ignorant, or stupid), they will be willing to consume their capital to survive. Destroying fish stocks by catching juveniles, farming harder and harder until the topsoil erodes, polluting water supplies, eating the seed corn, deforestation to make charcoal(on the subject of deforestation, compare the Dominican Republic with Haiti. Same island, same location, one country has its forests, one doesn't. The Dominican Republic is merely poor. Haiti is deeply fucked.), and so forth. Even in strict economic terms(i.e. setting the intrinsic worth of "the environment", beyond its practical utility, at 0) this is a stupid plan. If the alternative is starving, though, people will do it anyway. If efficiency increases, fewer people will be desperate enough to eat their capital instead of their income.

  5. Another implication... by Jay+Maynard · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There's another implication of that theory, and it's one that conservatives have been arguing for some time now: the end result of the current drive to cut back on carbon dioxide emissions is the destruction of the worlkd economy.

    --
    Disinfect the GNU General Public Virus!
    1. Re:Another implication... by NixieBunny · · Score: 5, Informative

      I wouldn't worry about that, as the end result of *not* cutting back on energy use is also the eventual destruction of the world economy. We live unsustainably. Oil isn't forever. Nukes aren't forever. Enjoy it while it lasts.

      --
      The determined Real Programmer can write Fortran programs in any language.
  6. Not really that surprising... by Angst+Badger · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Perhaps the most provocative implication of Garrett's theory is that conserving energy doesn't reduce energy use, but spurs economic growth and more energy use.

    While I can't speak to the validity of the underlying theory as such, a conclusion like this doesn't really come as a shock. The 20th century saw an steady stream of "labor-saving" inventions that are now part of our daily lives, but we don't have more leisure time than our ancestors -- in many cases, we actually have less -- because all of that liberated time was promptly consumed by new forms of work.

    Sooner or later, we're going to have to come to terms with our now obsolete species-wide obsession with material acquisition. It made sense before we developed tools and civilization: grab all you can while it's abundant because scarcity is the norm. Now that we have all we actually need and then some, we're just killing ourselves with the byproducts of our superfluous production.

    --
    Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
    1. Re:Not really that surprising... by martin-boundary · · Score: 4, Interesting

      but we don't have more leisure time than our ancestors

      How far back are you talking about? If it's the 19th century, then you're definitely wrong. We have huge swaths of leisure time compared with our 19th century ancestors. If it's the first half of the 20th century, then the economies in the West were still fairly unregulated although better than previously, and a lot of people were still more overworked than most of us are now. If you mean by ancestors your parents or grandparents, then you'd probably be right. The post-WWII period was a golden economic age for a large percentage of the population in the West. Unfortunately, with deregulation from the 1980s onwards exploitation has increased again.

    2. Re:Not really that surprising... by ignavus · · Score: 4, Funny

      Thepost-WWII period was a golden economic age for a large percentage of the population in the West. Unfortunately, with deregulation from the 1980s onwards exploitation has increased again.

      Yeah, like I too, man, think that, like the whole western world came to its peak, man, at Woodstock, back in '69.

      Like far out. Been a huge bummer ride since then.

      --
      I am anarch of all I survey.
  7. Re:Simple Solution by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Which is why Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union are environmental Garden of Edens.

    --
    "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
  8. Jevons Paradox by Arkange · · Score: 5, Informative

    This sounds like Jevons Paradox.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox

  9. Society Expands Up to Constraints of the System by reporter · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Physicist Tim Garret is correct when he observes "that conserving energy doesn't reduce energy use, but spurs economic growth and more energy use". That is another way of saying that society grows and expands up to the constraints of the system.

    When we conserve energy, we can and do use the saved energy for other activities. "conservation" is not really conservation if we promptly use the saved energy for another activity.

    Consider the food supply. The population has now reached a size at which the current amount of food is not sufficient for everyone to eat well. So, scientists at ADM and other companies are trying to invent new ways to increase food production. Suppose that the scientists succeed and that we increase food production by 20%. The population, enjoying this additional food, now grows by an additonal 20%: we return to the original problem.

    In the long run, the 4 horsemen will eventually impose their own solution on humankind. Many people will die in the process.

    Inevitably, some Slashdotter will claim that yet-to-be discovered technology will always provide a fix for the problem. Believing that yet-to-be discovered technology will be discovered (and will be the salvation) is exactly equivalent to believing the numerous claims of religion. Often, the same Slashdotter who is atheist does not hestitate to believe in yet-to-be discovered technology. A hypocrite, a fool, or both?

    1. Re:Society Expands Up to Constraints of the System by dintlu · · Score: 5, Informative

      Starvation is a geopolitical problem, not a resource problem. Grain production has consistently outpaced population growth for the past 30 years. Even during last year's food crisis, resource shortfalls were not an issue.

      more here: http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Learn/world%20hunger%20facts%202002.htm

    2. Re:Society Expands Up to Constraints of the System by UncleFluffy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Inevitably, some Slashdotter will claim that yet-to-be discovered technology will always provide a fix for the problem. Believing that yet-to-be discovered technology will be discovered (and will be the salvation) is exactly equivalent to believing the numerous claims of religion. Often, the same Slashdotter who is atheist does not hestitate to believe in yet-to-be discovered technology. A hypocrite, a fool, or both?

      The difference is that those people who believe that technology will allow the human race to overcome its limits have been proven right multiple times over the historical record. Those people who believe that $deity will come down and make everything right for us have less of a track record of successes.

      --

      What would Lemmy do?

    3. Re:Society Expands Up to Constraints of the System by The_Steel_General · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not to answer for dintlu, and I'm really going to talk about famine rather than starvation per se, but:

      "They're being prevented from feeding themselves" is not a bad answer. In Somalia in 1992, the people most affected by the famine, perversely, were the farmers, who were also part of the lowest social class.

      In any case, the point is that famines are caused not by a lack of food, but by problems distributing food.

      Food distribution is done poorly by governments that don't have their people's best interests in mind, e.g. because the government is a dictatorship or oligarchy and doesn't need to pay attention to what the people want. Conversely, famines don't happen in democratic societies with a free press - democracies have to respect the will of the people, and a free press would let the people know if food distribution is failing.

      All of this is according to the work of Amartya Sen, who won a Nobel Prize for it.

      TSG

  10. Gee wizz.. by Sapphon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Economists routinely use highly complicated mathematical models on stuff like this, and are just as routinely criticised for it because their simplifying assumptions aren't close enough to reality. Then along comes this bloke and uses a model that's not even based on human behaviour: the economy as a heat engine. No wonder he's been panned. Criticise economic models all you like, but at least the modern ones* have a foundation in human behaviour.

    I can see why this gets a run here – scientists are cool nerds; economists are not – but in the end it's a guy doing research outside of his field. Sometimes you get tremendous insights, but most of the time (as in this case) you don't.

    * I'm not talking about the physiocrats here, okay?

    Disclaimer: I am an economist.

    --
    Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.
    1. Re:Gee wizz.. by Rogerborg · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yeah, if an actual scientist had just come along and made the entire premise of my profession irrelevant, I'd be pretty hacked off too. You're taking it pretty well, actually, and yes, I will have fries with that.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    2. Re:Gee wizz.. by Timothy+Brownawell · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Economists routinely use highly complicated mathematical models on stuff like this, and are just as routinely criticised for it because their simplifying assumptions aren't close enough to reality. Then along comes this bloke and uses a model that's not even based on human behaviour: the economy as a heat engine. No wonder he's been panned. Criticise economic models all you like, but at least the modern ones* have a foundation in human behaviour.

      So economists are trying to figure things out from first principles, and having a rather difficult time because their necessary simplifying assumptions could possibly be simplifying away things that actually matter. While this guy seems to be looking at the economy as a black box, saying "it looks like this input and this output have always been related in the past, so what happens if they stay related in the future?". He's trying to come up with laws ("this is what happens") rather than theories ("this is why it happens"), and doesn't really need a foundation in human behavior. Much like we can know what gravity does, without actually having found a graviton or whatever current theories say we should find.

  11. One nuclear power plant a day by dominion · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "or society builds the equivalent of one new nuclear power plant each day."

    I don't have a problem with this. Let's get building.

    Eventually we'll turn towards the sun, and nuclear will only be our failsafe, but I have no problem with it filling in the gaps.

  12. Right, humans are uniquely bad by sean.peters · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern.

    It's a side issue, but this is complete hogwash. Every organism will increase as much as possible - they don't "instinctively" come to equilibrium, equilibrium is forced on them by competition. In the event that an organism becomes so well adapted that it dominates its competition, its numbers will increase until it dies off as a result of increasing beyond the carrying capacity of the environment. A good example: snow geese. For many years, snow goose populations were very low because their natural habitats were limited. But then, beginning about in the 70's, two things happened: 1) snowy owl populations increased in the far north, which had the effect of increasing snow goose nesting success by driving away snow goose predators, and 2) snow geese learned to exploit a new (to them) resource: agricultural waste. As a result of those two factors, the snow goose population exploded. Unfortunately, however, it didn't "come to equilibrium" with its environment - snow geese are now so overpopulated that they're destroying both their spring breeding grounds and their wintering grounds. Unless the population can be gotten under control through hunting (which so far has had pretty limited success), a population crash is inevitable

    There are other examples of the same phenomenon in other species, but what's relevant here is that humans are just an extreme example. We are so tremendously adaptable that we've been able to colonize nearly every environment on the surface of the earth, and have so outstripped every other creature that our population has grown too much for the earth to support it. That's a real problem, and I don't mean to pooh-pooh it. But I do get annoyed when I hear more examples of the meme that "animals (and primitive humans) lived in harmony with the earth, but evil (modern) man has forgotten how to do this". It's just not true - all species expand to fill all available space in whatever niche they occupy.