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Chevrolet Volt In a Gasoline-Only Scenario
s122604 sends in a performance review of the Chevy Volt, paying particular attention to what happens after the initial plug-in capacity has been depleted. This reader adds, "The review indicates that the performance is adequate, and perhaps better than anticipated. If the Volt can deliver technically, especially with the possibility that it could retail for less than expected (WSJ subscription may be required), does GM have a potential hit on its hands?" "How well will General Motors' Chevrolet Volt drive once it gets past its 40 mile all-electric driving range and starts to rely on power generated by its gasoline engine? That's been a question for both critics and fans of the Volt, and with just 11 months to go before this car hits the market, I got the answer."
Of course the driving performance is the exact same. There is only one driving engine, the electric one, and creating power-enough for it is not hard. Now the real question is: What is its fuel-performance when batteries are depleted?
Or gave the money to the car manufacturer
*DrugCheese rants*
I dunno.
When the Model T was introduced, it cost the equivalent of around 20K$, about half what this car is going to go for. But competing cars were more in the $50K to $70K range, so $40K is not too bad, and somewhat less than that (as the article says might happen) would be quite practical for many working people *given that there are operational savings*. It could well be a modest success at a price like $35K.
The cost of the Model T drop from $20,000 in current dollars to $12000 and then to under $10000, making it practical for the workers who assembled it to buy one. That's economies of manufacturing scale. The Volt has potentials for such economies of scale as the purchase expensive new parts like large batteries attracts investment and initial development costs are recouped. A modest hit with new technology is hard to achieve, but it will drive down cost and drive up profits more quickly than throwing a new skin on the same old platform would, where economies of scale have already been accounted for.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
The classic problem with selling new cars is that the people who can afford to buy them don't care about efficiency. They want a car that will dust whoever's next to them when they take off from a stoplight, and looks/drives sporty and/or like a Cadillac.
Car reporters take this a step farther and don't even care how much the car costs to buy or operate, just how it feels to be behind the wheel. So in the end, cheap cars never get positive press, and efficient cars only get it if they play to the luxury-class tastes of Car and Driver.
(It's never too late to join the Renaissance)
The virtually inevitable future of ground transportation isn't petroleum, since we will indeed eventually run out. However the obstacles are too many for a pure EV to be used as anything but a commuter car. (Namely, EV's are entirely useless for long-haul driving, with the even the longest range vehicles only providing less than 1/4 of that needed for a long haul trip. And no, you can't quick charge without MAJOR upgrades to the infrastructure.)
Doing the lion's share of your driving on batt., charging slowly at home, and still having the gas capacity for a long-range trip is a good compromise, and one that I think will carry us through the next couple of decades of auto development.
SirWired
P.S. I'm surprised at the number of articles that are so impressed that the engine isn't connected to the drive wheels. This is how locomotives have worked for decades, albeit for different reasons.
"The much higher compression ratio means diesel engines have to be heavier and more robust. This means they are more expensive to build, but the higher cost is offset by much longer lifetimes" - http://www.greencar.com/articles/difference-between-diesel-gasoline-engines.php
Thats the short of it. Diesel motors last much longer and our car dealers are on a 3 year cycle. Hence why factory dealership warrantys( up until recently ) are only 3yr/36k miles. Cars last shorter = more cars sold in a given time frame -> more money made.
It'll be interesting to see if this compromise pays off for Chevy. I'm betting that the Leaf will end up being more successful.
I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
Oh, I would love to hear you detail exactly how the government has been gouging you in particular.
Oh let's see - start with 1) destroying the value of the US dollar, which both increases the cost of imports (trivial stuff like, say, oil), 2) persistently lying about inflation because ok we'll say there's no inflation by taking out transport and energy from the inflation equation then we'll use substitution and hedonics to skew the inflation numbers in our favor and of course the cost of housing tripling or more has NOTHING to do with inflation and when you hear on the news things like "tuition fees have not kept up with household income" that isn't inflation either.
Here's a quote for you:
"There is no subtler, no surer means of overturning the existing basis of society than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose."
So I guess you belong to the 999,999 other people. I hope enjoy having your savings destroyed by inflation. Continue to believe the government when they say there is no inflation - there's even DEFLATION (hah! Then why do prices keep going up? How much is gold this morning? $1147/troy oz?). Yeah, believe that. Or you can see the real numbers, calculated in the traditional way.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
and Japanese parts where the profits go home to Japan
And then they turn around and buy US debt with those profits. You really have no clue about how a global economy works, do you? If it wasn't for China and Japan, the US would be bankrupt and you would not be enjoying your current standard of living.
If anyone is smoking anything, it's you.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
What we want to know is, what is the mileage when operating on the range extender?
So if you hop in your Volt and head to Grandma's house a few states over, what is the mileage per gallon?
While I like the concept of the Volt, paying $40k for a vehicle the size of a Cobalt/Focus doesn't appeal to me unless its off the grid mileage is better than average as well. I do not want a car just for commuting.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
The problem is that a Diesel engine is very heavy and expensive. Most hybrids are made for short trips so it would be a great waste of resources to carry around a heavy engine. Hybrid gasoline engines have a somewhat different cycle (Atkinson cycle) than normal gasoline engines (traditional Otto cycle) and thus are more economical. Add the weight savings compared to the heavier Diesel engines (especially with a particle filter) and you'll see why there are no Diesel hybrid cars - it just isn't worth it. Lorries, trains and ships are made for very long range and there a Diesel hybrid is much more practical, especially in the case of ships and trains where the Diesel engine is often only connected to the generator so it can be in its most efficient revolution speed the whole time and (because of the constant speed) have a very long life.
I expect that as diesel engines become smaller and have lower emissions (like the 1.3 litre Fiat engine) and fuel prices increase the equation will change and we will see diesel hybrids.
no, the government gives out money to buy the poor's vote...
"When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic" - Ben Frankin
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
Do you honestly think people are going to pay US$30-40k for a compact car that (feature-wise) compares to a US$16k Toyota Corolla?
Other than the deep pocketed early adopters and people who want to flaunt their "greenness", I think the sales of the Volt are going to be bleak.
And even if they sold every one of their stated 8000 unit capacity (in the first year), they're losing money on each one AND reliant on a government subsidy to close the sale.
This has epic failure written all over it even though it seems to a casual observer to be a "nice product."
and you drive 150 miles running errands use case
Do people really do that? In a civilized area, like the semi-rural midwest, we can and do go 75 on the highways, so thats TWO FREAKING HOURS of your valuable weekend time spent behind the wheel. In less civilized coastie areas, I hear coasties and big city types proudly "brag" about how their highways are so congested they never get much above 15, implying TEN FREAKING HOURS behind the wheel. I mean, come on, Saturday is only 24 hours long, not counting eating, sleeping, getting called from work, etc. Learn to use amazon.com and spend some of that TEN FREAKING HOURS having fun instead of going "vroom vroom".
The other part I never figured out, is all the retail activity tends to be concentrated on certain areas/roads. I do everything on that list, except visit granny, in one little two mile long, six lane wide road thats packed with retail, thats about four miles from my house. Even if I intentionally drove back and forth for each trip, I still couldn't drive more than 30 miles or so.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Make the batteries bigger and you still have to have the gas engine for when you visit your cousin 300 miles away.
It's not for longer trips that pure EV's get killed. It's the every Saturday when you have to run to the grocery store, bank, stop by your mother in laws, pick up some stuff at Best Buy, and you drive 150 miles running errands use case. Our leaders never mention this case though, because they actually don't drive for themselves.
150 miles? If you're averaging 30 mph (whilst driving), that's 5 hours of driving. Just how far away is your Best Buy, grocery store and bank?
I'll type this really slowly to make it easy for you to understand:
The government is not trying to help me get into a Volt. They're taking money from me in order to help someone else get into a Volt.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
The problem is that a Diesel engine is very heavy and expensive. Most hybrids are made for short trips so it would be a great waste of resources to carry around a heavy engine. Hybrid gasoline engines have a somewhat different cycle (Atkinson cycle) than normal gasoline engines (traditional Otto cycle) and thus are more economical. Add the weight savings compared to the heavier Diesel engines (especially with a particle filter) and you'll see why there are no Diesel hybrid cars - it just isn't worth it. Lorries, trains and ships are made for very long range and there a Diesel hybrid is much more practical, especially in the case of ships and trains where the Diesel engine is often only connected to the generator so it can be in its most efficient revolution speed the whole time and (because of the constant speed) have a very long life.
Let's also not forget that many smaller diesel engines(new VW Beetle comes to mind) are already VERY efficient, putting up damn near hybrid mileage numbers without the overhead and worry of battery maintenance 100,000 miles later.
This is what ticks me off the most about the car. I don't care about the grandiose claims. What I do care is that GM through its connections in the US Government taking money out of my pocket so someone else can buy this car.
They are transferring the efforts of my labor, my training, and such, to someone else because of what? Really? Where in the hell is the justification for this?
Can't wait for someone to declare its a right or for the public good. Whats next? Condemning older cars as urban blight and forcing people to buy what they don't need or want?
Government isn't doing anything but taking from others by force of law and distributing to those who would not have the courage to do so in person. There is nothing about this transfer that benefits the public good, unless your a rich corporation or a public official.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Its due to the refineries. When oil is refined a percentage of each gallon of oil is gas,diesel,kero,... If we start changing everything over to diesel the price for a gallon of diesel would skyrocket.
And Japan has learned to adapt. They have to or they can't sell.
I'm in Belgium, and up to about 2 or 3 years ago you couldn't buy a Honda with a diesel engine.
While Hondas were very popular cars here in the 80ies, their popularity dropped a lot.
Car dealerships even switched brands as they couldn't sell enough Hondas, people looked for diesel engines.
Honda finally adapted and introduced a diesel model.
(launched with a rather large ad campaign to let everyone know they finally had a diesel)
Btw it was last week in the news, here in Belgium about 75% of all cars have a diesel engine.
Learn about pinball machines on www.flippers.be
The real reason has nothing to do with engineering.
A few years ago there was a high-level automotive industry meeting which involved
executives from Europe, the US, and Japan.
At that meeting it was agreed that diesel-electric hybrids would not be embraced by the
car makers.
And by the way, the people who have commented that a diesel-electric hybrid would not be efficient in
short-trip modes such as city driving are _completely_ and _utterly_ wrong, and they have NO idea what they
are talking about ( but this is Slashdot and that is typical behavior for some of these losers who have no lives
beyond their computer keyboards ).
Now if you'll excuse me, I am going to install a new clutch in my 1996 "B4" VW Passat TDi wagon, which gets a
REAL WORLD 40 miles per gallon in combined use, and that's a conservatively low estimate. Oh, and this is a
large car which will carry 4 adults with ease and has lots of room in the back seat. There is more to life than some
nasty little Smart car or Prius, at least there is for those who know about cars.
A diesel-electric hybrid would in reality be the ideal drivetrain combination for today, as opposed to a pie-in-the-sky
idea which involves batteries which don't yet exist, or a hydrogen fueling infrastructure which ( also ) doesn't exist.
What most of you people fail to grasp is that the car industry does things because of "arrangements" made with oil
companies, not because of whether certain technical matters are practical or possible or not. They are not interested
in most of the drivers in the US embracing cars which are really efficient, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T suit THEIR AGENDA.
Irrelevant. Working class doesn't pay cash for cars so $40k is barely relevant... To them the bottom line is how much it costs per month - and since this can be compared to fuel costs per month, the conversation with the salesman is going to be "yes it costs this much more per month for the car, but this much less for fuel"
It's a question of whether one can offset the other. Can it?
Dude, every car for sale in the first world should last for ~100k miles without any major issues. If a car has problems before then it's probably has some manufacturing fault specific to that vehicle, not a design fault. Most cars can make it to 200k miles without too many costly repairs. It's the *consumers* of new cars that are on a 3 year lease cycle, and I thank them for that because it means they have payed for the majority of the depreciation without using up a corresponding percentage of the vehicles useful life.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Wow, so wrong and so smugly patronizing..
We are taxed to hell and back, but that damage is dwarfed by the effect of government debt and other interference in the market. There's no conspiracy against the middle class in particular; it's a conspiracy to loot anyone, rich or poor, who makes the mistake of holding US dollars.
We are taxed far more than most people realize. Besides direct theft from our wages, we pay for it in costs passed along to buyers by corporations (which are taxed at 39%), and by inflation. The Fed likes to brag about holding the CPI steady, but what we would see without the Fed in the picture is the price of goods falling over time, as productivity increases due to capital investments. If the CPI is steady, then somebody (the government and their cronies) is skimming.
Reagan managed to get the congress to give us a reduction of tax rates, but the fact is that tax revenues continued to increase. Of course, the congress made sure that no matter how much they collect, they'll always spend vastly more than that, whether it's on military pork barrel schemes, or social pork barrel schemes.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Ford actually quadrupled the salaries to make it possible
Ford liked to say that he paid his workers enough to buy one of his cars, but there was rather more to it than that. He sold his cars at a price that many people besides his own employees could afford. He paid his men more than the prevailing wage, because he was competing for their services with other manufacturers, and his production-line methods made them much more productive. The higher their productivity, the more he could afford to pay them.
There's a leftist fantasy that 19th century and early 20th century America was a story of unions wresting money out of the hands of greedy capitalists, but the truth is that it was capital investment that raised labor's productivity and made our vast middle class possible.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Do you honestly think people are going to pay US$30-40k for a compact car that (feature-wise) compares to a US$16k Toyota Corolla?
They already pay $28k for a car that has the same features as a Toyota Corolla. It's called a Prius.
One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
Weird, I lived in NJ. for 25 years had a few cars that lasted me more than 200K and did not rust out. it's all about keeping the car clean and waxed, 1 carwash per month in the winter keeps it in shape. I don't know about the rest, but car's have always survived looking new with me ( still have my 1997 ford and it still looks new 140K miles )
if you see me, smile and say hello.
My pockets have been picked since I started working to fight useless wars and fund an enormous, expensive and increasingly ineffective military. Not to mention the soaring spending rates on police agencies from local to Federal which reduce my freedoms.
The money being spent on Volt subsidies is nothing compared to handouts to corn farmers. It's a pittance compared to money we just hand over to other nations.
Blar.
Do you honestly think people are going to pay US$30-40k for a compact car that (feature-wise) compares to a US$16k Toyota Corolla?
The Corolla is effectively subsidized since Corolla owners don't pay for the cost of cleaning up the pollution they produce. Tax gasoline engines to offset this very real cost and hybrid vehicles become a lot more economical.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
The top 1% pays less than 42% of the taxes.
You know, you could reword that as "The top 1% pays over 40% of the taxes!" Do those top 1% use 40% of the roads, military, medicaid, social security and welfare? I'm not saying they aren't getting the full benefit of access to our society, but clearly they aren't exactly freeloading on the goodwill of the 99% of the people who are paying the other 59% of the taxes.
They also only earn about 22% of the country's income, despite paying 40% of the taxes.
My pockets have been picked since I started working to fight useless wars and fund an enormous, expensive and increasingly ineffective military. Not to mention the soaring spending rates on police agencies from local to Federal which reduce my freedoms. The money being spent on Volt subsidies is nothing compared to handouts to corn farmers. It's a pittance compared to money we just hand over to other nations.
Two wrongs don't make a right. On the other hand, without a military there is little to prevent the have-nots of this world from coming over with their nail-boards and extorting from you whatever they can. Do we spend too much on these things? Probably. Does that make the Chevy Volt subsidy any more noble or right than it otherwise would be? IMHO, no.