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Intel Fires Back At FTC In Antitrust Suit

adeelarshad82 writes "Intel has responded to the Federal Trade Commission's antitrust investigation, unsurprisingly challenging the FTC's allegations as well as criticizing the agency for what the company calls an attempt 'to turn Intel into a public utility.' The motion is a response to the FTC's December announcement of a lawsuit brought by the FTC, accusing Intel of anti-competitive practices. Intel also goes on to provide a paragraph-by-paragraph rebuttal of the FTC's complaint and proposed remedy, although most of the company's response seems designed to promote the impression that those that failed, failed on their own."

23 of 122 comments (clear)

  1. The general problem Intel has by JoshuaZ · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The general problem Intel has is that at a default level even before any of the facts are in, chip-making is an area where anti-trust concerns make a lot of sense, more so than they necessary do in other areas (such as software). Chip-making has massive initial start-up cost. Thus, it is like the classic economic example of the steel mill where it is almost impossible for new competitors to enter the market. Thus, even if Intel shows that they haven't actively abused their role (such as the FTC's claims about Intel threatening buyers about loss of discounts in event of them buying from competitors) there might still be a strong case for some form of intervention.

    1. Re:The general problem Intel has by rickb928 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Interesting, and I had to put away my mod points and respond.

      "it is like the classic economic example of the steel mill where it is almost impossible for new competitors to enter the market"

      I suspect that if this is the theory the FTC is presenting, Intel is correctly going to counter that this is neither sufficient grounds for additional restrictions, nor is it actually a hindrance in today's or even last year's market.

      There are some competitors to Intel (AMD) that don't even OWN fabrication facilities. They have access to competitive foundries that can produce their product. Similarly, competitors such as Freescale etc. also have their own foundries and can even find other manufacturers. There is a thriving boutique business for chips, and multiple CPU makers with multiple manufacturing options.

      Now, if the FTC thinks Intel has an unfair advantage because they own their fabs, well, AMD chose a different route. Emphasis on CHOSE. The FTC is not chartered to address a competitor's poor choices, if indeed AMD made a poor choice in being fabless.

      Intel has a good point. If the a major point of the FTC's inquiry is that they have an integrated presence in the market, then is Intel being penalized partly for merely being successful, and making good business decisions? Pah. They are in a competitive business. AMD is suffering as much for their choice in manufacturing partners as anythuing right now. Design aside.

      The FTC has to do better than this.

      ps - It should be obvious IANAL.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    2. Re:The general problem Intel has by Locke2005 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      CPU manufacturing is what is known as a "natural monopoly"; I really don't think the global market can support more than 3 companies doing this. That still doesn't justify Intel's use of "co-marketing" money, wherein Intel pays all of PC vendor's advertising costs, but only if they don't use competitor's chips. Intel is willing to do practically anything for a "design win", but that is just good ol' fashioned competition. Unfortunately, it is difficult to separate the effects of Intel's anti-competitive behavior from the effects of Intel's competitors simply having far fewer resources with which to compete. I, for one, would be happy if computer customers were free to choose whatever CPU they want without interference from Intel. (Just like they should be able to choose whatever OS they want without interference from Microsoft.) Intel has shown that except for major screw-ups like Whitehall, they can compete quite well based just on innovation and actual merit. But consumers are best served by having a choice, which keeps Intel honest.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    3. Re:The general problem Intel has by Deosyne · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah, there was way too much common sense in that posting to have anything to do with our legal system.

    4. Re:The general problem Intel has by lorenlal · · Score: 5, Informative

      Intel has a good point. If the a major point of the FTC's inquiry is that they have an integrated presence in the market, then is Intel being penalized partly for merely being successful, and making good business decisions? Pah. They are in a competitive business. AMD is suffering as much for their choice in manufacturing partners as anythuing right now. Design aside.

      I believe that the major points in the FTC's inquiry involved Intel essentially holding their immediate customers over a barrel involving pricing of their chips. Specifically:
      http://www.ag.ny.gov/media_center/2009/nov/nov4a_09.html

      By leveraging their market position, Intel provided "rebates" to customers who went with Intel exclusively. When a computer maker wanted to offer AMD-based systems, Intel would threaten to raise their per-chip cost to a point where the maker couldn't compete. There are plenty of other notes. Please feel free to review and comment.

    5. Re:The general problem Intel has by Chris+Burke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I suspect that if this is the theory the FTC is presenting, Intel is correctly going to counter that this is neither sufficient grounds for additional restrictions, nor is it actually a hindrance in today's or even last year's market.

      That is not the theory the FTC is presenting, and the issues that the FTC is investigating don't involve today's or even last year's market.

      The theory involves intel's business practices over many years and their efforts to lock out or marginalize them by making agreements with OEMs that said they were required to do exactly that or be at a huge competitive disadvantage vs everyone else who was willing to play ball with Intel. Just as one example.

      There are some competitors to Intel (AMD) that don't even OWN fabrication facilities. They have access to competitive foundries that can produce their product.

      Yes AMD chose to spin off their fabs, because they literally had no other choice. Debt was piling up, and this made securing the incredible amount of funding necessary to build new fabs impossible.

      But barring their own spun-off fabs, no they do not have access to "competitive foundries" that can produce their product. Intel was already ahead of AMD's fabs, and AMD's fab is ahead of all the foundries (not counting that AMD uses SOI and all the foundries use bulk), who have neither the capacity nor the time to dedicate to tweaking their processes specifically for AMD's needs so they have a chance of remaining competitive with Intel. AMD is just as dependent on "their own" fabs as ever.

      That said, Intel having a fab and AMD selling theirs off (though it's still on AMD's books) is not the FTC's complaint as TFA explains. You rread a lot into the OP that wasn't really being said. They just said anti-trust made sense in chip sales because of the barriers to entry. The actual issue was and is anti-trust, not the barrier to entry itself.

      Similarly, competitors such as Freescale etc.

      Sorry but LOL.

      The FTC is not chartered to address a competitor's poor choices, if indeed AMD made a poor choice in being fabless.

      That's right, they are chartered to address anti-competitive business practices on the part of the monopolist, which is what they are doing.

      Intel has a good point.

      Intel is not making the point you think they're making.

      Also, they will of course say they have a good point, but it's the exact same points they made to the Japanese and EU trade commissions and during AMD's lawsuit against them, and they didn't fly then. Our FTC seems to move even slower than the others, but part of the reason they're waiting so long and talking about issues from the past is because they have spent a long time investigating and gathering evidence to make their case.

      Assuming they have some of the same evidence as the EU that I've seen, Intel doesn't have much of a chance. Though even without that, anyone paying attention through the 90s and early 00s knows what Intel was up to.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    6. Re:The general problem Intel has by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's not a mistake Intel should have to pay for.

      And they're not paying for anything having to do with AMD's actions, they're paying for their own business practices. Try to keep up please?

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    7. Re:The general problem Intel has by StayFrosty · · Score: 2, Informative

      CPU manufacturing is what is known as a "natural monopoly."

      No, it's not. According to Wikipedia: "In economics, a natural monopoly occurs when, due to the economies of scale of a particular industry, the maximum efficiency of production and distribution is realized through a single supplier, but in some cases inefficiency may take place.

      Natural monopolies arise where the largest supplier in an industry, often the first supplier in a market, has an overwhelming cost advantage over other actual or potential competitors. This tends to be the case in industries where capital costs predominate, creating economies of scale which are large in relation to the size of the market, and hence high barriers to entry; examples include public utilities such as water services and electricity. It is very expensive to build transmission networks (water/gas pipelines, electricity and telephone lines), therefore it is unlikely that a potential competitor would be willing to make the capital investment needed to even enter the monopolist's market."

      While fabs may be expensive, I really don't think that is what is keeping other companies from entering the market. In fact, a fab has to be retooled every few years to manufacture chips with a new/smaller process. What's keeping other companies out of the desktop CPU market is licensing. Nvidia has been rumoured to be trying to enter the x86 cpu market for the last couple of years but has been unable due to licensing restrictions of the x86 architecture.

      AMD no longer owns their own fabs but they are still a "CPU Manufacturer." They design the chips which are made by someone else's Fab.

      I really don't think the global market can support more than 3 companies doing this.

      Off the top of my head: Intel, AMD, Freescale, IBM, TI, Motorola, NVIDIA, Qualcomm, ARM (Who designs a lot of chips made by TI, Freescale and Qualcomm,) and Sun.

      --
      "Frequently wrong, never in doubt."
    8. Re:The general problem Intel has by Locke2005 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ARM is a CPU designer, not a CPU manufacturer. I probably should have restricted my statement to x86 compatible or PC CPUs; there is room for more than three embedded CPU manufacturers. If we're talking about companies that actually have the fabs to compete with Intel, we're talking AMD, IBM, and TSMC. Possibly also UMC, Fujitsu, and National Semiconductor. So you are correct, about 7 companies, not 3. With multi-billion dollar barriers to entry, the high-end semiconductor industry does look a lot like a natural monopoly, even though, as you point out, it technically is not.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    9. Re:The general problem Intel has by hairyfeet · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think what is ultimately screwed Intel is the fact that they paid their OEMs to NOT use any AMD chips, and made it clear that any discounts would go bye bye if so much as a single AMD chip went out the door. I wish I could find the link, but as another poster says Intel puff pieces dominate Google right now.

      But you can find proof of it probably in your very own home. Remember back five years ago, when Intel was running Netburst, which was a pig for power, ran like a space heater, and was slower than just about every AMD chip made? While AMD wasn't the truly insane "bang for the buck" it is now, their chips were still quite affordable and the benchmarks kicked every single offering Intel had, yet AMD didn't gain ground. Why? With OEMs having bullet points to stick on the box is a BIG plus, and having the benchmark leaders helps to sell boxes. Not to mention the lower power requirements means less powerful PSUs, and fans, and all that adds to the bottom line. Yet they STILL didn't gain. Why?

      Because Intel paid off the OEMs that's why. I would point out this quote from an the article as an example, "Its executives agreed that Intel's financial inducements amounted to "cocaine," but said they were hooked because re-engaging with AMD would jeopardize Intel market development funds estimated to be worth $25 (million)-$30 million per quarter."

      And THAT is what is gonna come back to bite them in the ass, just as it did MSFT. Giving discount to volume customers is one thing, tying those discounts to cutting your competitors completely out of the market is another. I'm sorry but they need to be busted. Being tough in the market is one thing, paying off your partners in backroom deals to screw the other guy is antitrust bait. Hopefully Intel will be stopped from pulling this crap in the future, and since AMD used a good portion of their 1.25 Billion dollar settlement from Intel (which if there wasn't any skeletons about to fall out the closet I doubt Intel would have shelled out the cash) to pay off their ATI debts I can only hope AMD comes out better so there is real competition. Because I don't know about you, but I have no desire to go back to Intel being the only game in town. I like being able to build a nice quad for less than $750, thanks ever so much.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
  2. Government is best at deciding about the economy by antirelic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    From the article "In 26 statements of "contemplated relief" contained in its complaint, the FTC described what Intel's must do and not do to preserve competition."

    Right, because when I think of people who know how to run a business (ya know, an entity with 10 trillion dollars in debt), I think of the Federal government. Who are these people who think they know how to maintain competition? Obviously not people who can make it in the private sector so they go work for the FTC and act like little emporers, "sticking it" to the businesses that they could never succeed against, or within.

    Give IBM 700 billion dollars and I guarantee that the unemployment would be well below 10% (or 17% real unemployement). Give 700B to the fed and what happens???

    --
    20th century Marxism is not progress...
  3. Re:Government is best at deciding about the econom by JoshuaZ · · Score: 5, Informative

    Actually, anti-trust issues are exactly the sort of thing that needs to be handled by the government because no one else is in a position to do so. There are many good reasons for anti-trust issues: 1) large controling companies in industries can hurt customers, stifle competition and stifle innovation. 2) They make industries and the economy as a whole more vulnerable to sudden fluctuations (look what happened in the banking industry. That was in part because the largest banks were too large. Unfortunately, we haven't really dealt with that part of the problem...). The FTC doesn't need to know how to run a business. They just need to know how to identify anti-competitive practices.

  4. I don't quite get it... by i_ate_god · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I could have sworn that at one time, the Athlon was king of the world, then the Core 2 Duo's came out and Intel was king of the world since because AMD hasn't made a superior CPU.

    Is Intel supposed to purposefully degrade the quality of their product? What is it that they did that has the FTC crying foul?

    --
    I'm god, but it's a bit of a drag really...
    1. Re:I don't quite get it... by Rockoon · · Score: 5, Informative

      ..because even when AMD was price AND performance king of the x86 CPU, Intel still sold more due to market manipulation.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    2. Re:I don't quite get it... by Chris+Burke · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually it's Intel's business practices during the time (and before) Athlon was "king of the world" that are at issue. They fed companies "cooperative marketing" funds (read cash handouts and sweetheart pricing deals) via the "Intel Inside" program that were not based on how much Intel product they moved, but rather on them not selling AMD parts. There were companies that wanted to sell more AMD, but couldn't because with the amount of money Intel was giving them, it simply didn't make sense. They would have been crushed by competitors who were willing to play ball with Intel.

      Thus was Athlon's marketshare artificially limited, which can be seen as a cause of AMD later falling behind. There was a brief period in the K8 days where AMD was fab capacity limited, but this too is because AMD had not secured enough revenue from Athlon to build as aggressively as they would have otherwise.

      As usual, legal entities like the FTC move slowly, and the issues they actually act upon are thus well in the past. Not that Intel stopped engaging in these practices until (possibly) very recently, when other trade organizations around the globe started hammering them and AMD's lawsuit against them was settled in AMD's favor. It's just understandably harder to see the business practice issues when Intel's products are also superior.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    3. Re:I don't quite get it... by archer,+the · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Also, there were rumors that if a motherboard manufacturer was thinking of making new AMD boards, Intel allegedly would hint that the manufacturer might face a shortage of Intel chipsets.

      http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/early-athlon-motherboard-review,123-2.html?xtmc=athlon_boards_chipset_shortage_taipei&xtcr=2

    4. Re:I don't quite get it... by phantomfive · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or maybe Intel just has a really awesome marketing department. Seriously, have you ever heard of 'AMD Inside?' I heard stories of executives in the 90s who would say things like, "I don't know what that Intel stuff is, but I want some of it in my computer." I'm not sure if what Intel did market manipulative things or not, but they definitely rocked AMD on the marketing front.

      --
      Qxe4
    5. Re:I don't quite get it... by cheesybagel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      AMD could not manage to sell their processors for more money, because Intel basically used their cash reserves and market power to undermine AMD. Intel basically threatened manufacturers that would buy AMD that they would suddenly start paying much more expensive prices, than Intel exclusive manufacturers. This caused AMD to lose a lot of customers. It was claimed AMD got its first major OEM win (Compaq) by essentially giving its processors away for free. If AMD had sold its processors for more, they could have had the money to build new fabs, or have more design teams. You have to remember AMD has like one CPU design team, and one shrink team, while Intel has at least 2 designs teams, and separate shrink teams. So Intel can afford to fail more when designing CPUs while AMD has to get everything right.

    6. Re:I don't quite get it... by cheesybagel · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Sure Athlon was hot. But so were the Intel alternatives. Intel could not even get a working 1 GHz Pentium III in 0.18um in any decent quantity. Pentium 4 same thing.

      AMD got a bad rap at a time because their processors did not have an integrated temperature measurement diode like the PIII did. This meant if a processor was inadequately cooled you could get a burn out processor. They fixed that in Palomino (Athlon XP). Still, compared to the hardware bugs in the i820 chipset, or the paper launch of the 1GHz PIII, it was no biggie.

    7. Re:I don't quite get it... by farble1670 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      something like this:

      • intel: going to ship AMD-based systems are you?
      • PC manufacturer: yes.
      • intel: oh really. by the way, the price of that lot of intel CPUs you plan to purchase just doubled.
      • PC manufacturer: ...

      the PC manufacturer had to ship intel-based systems because there was some significant portion of consumers that recognize the intel brand name ... despite the fact that intel-based CPUs were inferior to AMD at the time. that's called anti-competitive practices ... for the obvious reason that AMD wasn't being allowed to compete based on price / technical / marketing merits.

      would intel have technical superiority over AMD right now if the playing field was level during the 90's-00's? good question.

  5. Re:Government is best at deciding about the econom by Snarkalicious · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Preservation of competition is about maintaing the health of the consumer market. The FTC isn't saying that Intel doesn't know how to make money, but that their practices are threatening to the maintenance of a robust competitive market. Capitalism without a framework of rules and standards that is about as sustainable over the long-term as the communist shadows your sig line is barking at. Take it from a left wing progressive: The policies put forth by Obama are centrist. The center has just been far enough to port long enough that most folks don't recognize it anymore. Oh, and when we gave the Fed those billions, what they did was to prevent a total sieze-up of credit markets, without which large scale economic movement is essentially impossible. What they did there was to save capitalism from the ravages of an underregulated market.

  6. Re:Government is best at deciding about the econom by locallyunscene · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The Federal Gov't. didn't force a takeover. They said "here's some money, it's comes with strings attached". The banks hoped those strings wouldn't be enforced, but that hasn't been the case(thankfully). A lot of banks have opted to pay the money back. I sincerely doubt this would have been the case if they had just been given a blank check.

    The automakers are just F***** and have been for a long time. Their bailout was to soften the blow of all of them going down in close proximity, and at a time when there was no faith in the economy. Maybe it wasn't needed, maybe it prevented a lot of suffering. I'll wait until we're on the other side of this recession to see what the effects were.

    Also I love how you say "There is a huge difference between anti-trust action, and State take-over of a company" in your first sentence and then equate the two in your last.

  7. Re:Except.... by BlackSnake112 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Was that due to competition or what the unions did which drove costs up for the US steel plants?