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A Case For the Necessity of Science Fiction

unc0nn3ct3d writes "This article makes an interesting point about the necessity of science fiction — or, more specifically, speculative fiction as a tool to aid in the long-term survival of the human species. 'We live in a world that is incredibly frightening for a growing portion of the population because of the exponential rate of change we are experiencing. Our world is changing so fast now that we often don't have time to contemplate the full ramifications that come with the increasingly rapid adoption of new technologies and social changes. Most often this is simply because these changes are being introduced almost one after another after another, without any time to breathe. Speculative fiction, however, if widely adopted, makes it almost instinctive that we think about these situations and possible outcomes before they even arise.'"

55 of 254 comments (clear)

  1. And then, we.... by FooAtWFU · · Score: 3, Interesting

    And then, we get all frightened and refuse to build large-scale particle colliders because we're afraid that black hole monsters will crawl out from under our beds and suck us into the fifth dimension.

    --
    The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    1. Re:And then, we.... by argent · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You mostly get that from people who don't read enough SF.

    2. Re:And then, we.... by Devout_IPUite · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah, star trek teaches us that launching your warp core into a black hole will push you out... Instead of you know, destroying your ship and pushing it's scattered particles out.. Or even better just making the black hole bigger so that it sucks harder.

    3. Re:And then, we.... by argent · · Score: 3, Funny

      Unless it's a Klein Bottle.

    4. Re:And then, we.... by argent · · Score: 5, Funny

      You mostly get that from people who don't read enough SF.

      Yeah, star trek teaches us [...]

      OK, let me try emphasizing a different word in that sentence: "You mostly get that from people who don't read enough SF".

    5. Re:And then, we.... by shabtai87 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think a Moebius Coin would be more apropo

      --
      @humanity: *facepalm*
    6. Re:And then, we.... by selven · · Score: 3, Informative

      Suck us into the fifth dimension? You're already in the fifth dimension. You're already in every dimension that exists. Saying you're not in the fifth dimension is like saying a ship has no altitude. It's incorrect - the altitude is zero relative to sea level.

    7. Re:And then, we.... by argent · · Score: 2, Funny

      The problem is that scientists in just about every movie and television show are seen as evil.

      I think I see your problem.

    8. Re:And then, we.... by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 2

      GATTACA won't happen in a world that has this thing... what do we call it.... universal health-care.

    9. Re:And then, we.... by Hurricane78 · · Score: 3, Funny

      OK, let me try emphasizing a different word in that sentence: "You mostly get that from people who don't read enough SF".

      Ok, then let me try emphasizing even another word in that sentence: "You mostly get that from people who don't read enough SF"

      Bender

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  2. This is true. by hedronist · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I find in talking with my wife and other friends/family who are not SciFi readers that they are often surprised by certain events in the news. Whereas I will say something like, "Oh, this reminds me of Snow Crash, or Left Hand of Darkness ... kewl!"

    Good quality, 'what if'-style SciFi keeps your world view more flexible than reading most any other kind of genre.

    1. Re:This is true. by aurispector · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, but it gives us a template with which to evaluate new scientific developments. Analogy is a useful thing.

      --
      I have mod points. The reign of terror begins now.
    2. Re:This is true. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think "flying cars" brings up an important limitation of much of sci-fi as a future-predicting instrument.

      Science fiction does, in some cases, do a fairly decent job of predicting some scientific advances(Clarke and Satellites, etc.); but it often does a much poorer job with political and social stuff, either wildly overshooting(In the future, politics will be replaced by instantaneous world democracy through voting brain implants and the UN!) or wildly undershooting(Yes Virginia, even in the future with spaceships and robots, politics and gender roles will look exactly like 1950's America...). Also very common is succumbing to the pressure to make things "speculative, futuristic, or creative" and underestimating the degree to which glacially slow progress is mixed with radical change. For instance, consider the percentage of the world population that is still dying like flies because they have shit in their drinking water, or is fighting some ghastly little bush war with Eastern Bloc kit from the 60's and 70's; but also owns(or at least has access to within a small social group) a cellphone with more computing power than the dumb terminals that Asimov's characters were connecting to MULTIVAC with.

      In the case of flying cars, we've had helicopters for decades, and various slightly more tractable variants have been on the drawing board or in prototype for some time; but we are actively moving away from the economic conditions that would make the middle class wealthy enough for these to, like cars, be more or less ubiquitous.

    3. Re:This is true. by HiThere · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Some science fiction is meant to prevent the future it describes. But it's intended to make you think about alternatives. Other science fiction is just designed to explore what certain conditions might yield. Consider "Mission of Gravity".

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    4. Re:This is true. by kenwd0elq · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem with the whole "flying cars" thing is that they are technologically possible, and have been for some time now. The problem is lawyers. Every time somebody comes up with a great idea, some shyster starts thinking of ways to steal all the money by filing frivolous lawsuits based on a worst-case scenario about what could happen. If we were allowed to shoot any lawyer who filed a lawsuit based on the FEAR of some outcome instead of on some ACTUAL outcome, the world would be a better place - and we would have our rocket packs and flying cars.

  3. Only on slashdot by CodeDragonDM · · Score: 5, Informative

    Only on Slashdot will you find an article saying we need more science fiction as news.

  4. Adolescent fantasies by pigiron · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Engineers and scientists will invent things anyway regardless of whether there has been bad fiction written about the concept beforehand.

    1. Re:Adolescent fantasies by jdigriz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      'We live in a world that is incredibly frightening for a growing portion of the population because"... they are largely ignorant of science, technology, politics, economic, history, strategy and other cultures. Of course it's frightening to them, they don't have the information necessary to understand anything that's going on. Sheesh.

    2. Re:Adolescent fantasies by Kell+Bengal · · Score: 4, Interesting

      But a surprising amount of technology is inspired directly or indirectly from fiction. I work in robotics and I can tell you that there isn't a single person I've met robotics conferences who didn't grow up thinking about robots from the works of Asimov or Lucas or Japanese anime. We loved them and we wanted to be a part of that - to make it so.

      Science fiction is a history of the future - a self-fulfilling prophecy.

      --
      Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
      altslashdot.org: The future of slashdot.
    3. Re:Adolescent fantasies by lyinhart · · Score: 4, Informative
      Now that you mention Asimov, I think he wrote something that basically sums up the need for science fiction:

      Individual science fiction stories may seem as trivial as ever to the blinder critics and philosophers of today — but the core of science fiction, its essence, the concept around which it revolves, has become crucial to our salvation if we are to be saved at all..

      http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Isaac_Asimov

      --
      Freedom is drinking a beer in the park when you're supposed to be at work.
  5. Faster Than The Other Side by b4upoo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    We do need to speed up social conventions to match the speed of technology. For example part of the unemployment crises that we are now seeing is due to technology displacing workers. Whet people don't seem to grasp is that there is a very serious intention to replace all labor with machines. Education and shifting from job skill to job skills will not be enough to keep afloat soon. Yet when social scientists try to offer solutions they are seen as crackpots and lunatics. Frankly some of their solutions make a lot of sense.
                      However there are some basic issues that never resolved before robotics and the like advanced and one wonders what will happen if robotics is able to solve them. For example robots designed to remove dents and to paint cars might be able to keep every car looking new. But sense we were never able to do that before robotics what will be the economic effect of doing it. The same is true of house and lawn work. Good roofs and fresh paint on a sharp looking lawn without human effort would be a shocker. But what does that do to an economy. We don't even know if humans should be involved in an economy or whether we best let robots and computers serve us all things that we need.

    1. Re: Faster Than The Other Side by gmuslera · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Only social conventions? See how media that used to have physical distribution clash about digital age? Internet changed the board for everything, and still 15 years after it started to popularize we are slowly, very slowly, adapting to all that it implies.

      What fails most science fiction is that they add a new technology, and shows how it changes one aspect of our life usually towards the plot of the story, but leaves everything else, on how we think and see life, as normal. Maybe it would happen that way anyway, culture don't change very fast, but after some time one would think that we shouldn't be able to understand how behaves people far enoiugh after a critical change.

    2. Re: Faster Than The Other Side by selven · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Who says humans will take it sitting down as robots shoot up past us? Humans will be riding the wave of progress and will improve themselves alongside their machines. Robots won't be rising up against us, they'll be integrating with us.

    3. Re: Faster Than The Other Side by Shatrat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not the dumb people, though. Think of all the people who can't do anything that couldn't be done as well or better by a robot.
      Mathematically, half of us are of below median intelligence, after all.
      Those people are going to form unions and special interest groups and fight progress like it's AIDS in the coming years.

      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    4. Re: Faster Than The Other Side by sammyF70 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Maybe, the right question to ask then is WHY do people hate welfare? (full disclosure: I'll be on welfare from next month on, due to some complicated issues). You don't have to sit in front of the TV, munching fast food all day long, wondering which of the 200 applications you sent will be the next to be declined.
      There are lots of much more personally fulfilling activities you can do, for which you never had time before due to your job. If robots take over the jobs, just see it as an opportunity to do something creative (in a very broad sense) and meaningful for yourself. If others might enjoy it, even better (and I'm not talking specifically of FOSS here)

      --
      "DRM is like the Ford Pinto: it's a smooth ride, right up the point at which it explodes and ruins your day."-C.Doctorow
    5. Re: Faster Than The Other Side by hitmark · · Score: 3, Insightful

      i kinda recall a statement similar to "every golden age had a free lunch".

      that is, greeks and romans had slaves. Later on it was oil. The next may well be humanoid robots, filling much the same role as slaves did in roman times.

      and yes, i do wonder about the same thing. And i could have sworn i bumped into a story somewhere on the net where a guy had wrestled with the topic, via burger flippers that was guided by wireless headsets and sound prompts from a computer, via robots and the poorhouse for displaced workers, to a kind of utopia set up in australia, where people had free food and housing, and could use a daily allotment of "resource points" either on themselves or pool them to "fund" greater projects someone was working on.

      thing is that if we ever get to the point where machines can be fed a CAD plan and build the complete device without human intervention, we hit a point where only "intellectual property" and access to the raw material matters. The latter is a age old problem, while the former is playing out in prototype form by way of copyright, patent, DMCA and ACTA as we speak.

      btw, doctorows latest, makers, pokes into this. Funny enough, his inspiration was the aftermath of .com, while the release timed perfectly with the most recent economic downtime.

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    6. Re: Faster Than The Other Side by Devout_IPUite · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Oh, heck yeah I think it'd be awesome for the robots to take care of us while we (the humans) played. But the guy over there who owns 37 mansions and an army of robots might resent me trying to live off of his 'hard work'. When I state the question I don't answer which choice is correct, in my opinion I think handouts are correct. The real kicker is that starving people or handouts are the only two choices.

    7. Re: Faster Than The Other Side by RonTheHurler · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I have first hand experience with this. I used to employ two skilled carpenters to cut wood all day long. For the cost of one year's salary for those guys, I bought an automated CNC machine that does everything they did, and more, and has been running virtually non-stop for a solid three years.

      Sounds awful when I stop there. So then what happened...

      My product's quality, consistency and reliability shot up dramatically, Tolerances went from 1/4" to 0.005". My customers noticed, and then my sales shot up too. So my employee count went up to handle the new order volume. I have employees doing jobs that didn't exist when I started this business ten years ago. And now my employees get to work in an air conditioned office and don't have to worry about cutting their fingers off with a table saw either.

      So, because technology killed two jobs, I'm better off, my customers are better off, and I was able to hire more employees who are also better off.

      When a textile worker was complaining about his job going to China (in the news last year), an astute interviewer asked him "Do you want your kids to grow up to work in this same sweaty factory, breathing this lint filled air?" Of course, the answer was "No.", so then, why not let the job go to China, and teach your kids to embrace the innovation and change that will be so inevitable in his lifetime? That's the value of Science Fiction in my opinion. Once a kid gets his head around it, he understands intrinsically that that "different" is natural, and change is normal. He has to change his world-view to get into the story, for most of the stories he reads. That's good practice for living in any future, especially your own.

      I grew up on a steady diet of science fiction. I'm 50 years old now, and I've changed careers in every one of my adult decades. It has always been a good thing for me too. Follow-up studies consistently show that 95% of workers who are laid off get better jobs at higher pay within two years of being laid off.

      By the way, here's how the economy really works -- It's not "supply and demand" as the old school used to teach, it's really all about production and consumption, which is subtly different, but in a very important way. A healthy economy is driven by production. Production is driven by consumption. Consumption is driven by innovation (think iPhone, Blu-Ray, etc.), and innovation is driven by education and imagination. If you want a healthy economy, invest in education and support the arts. Give a kid a Kindle stuffed with a thousand books (there are literally thousands of free and nearly-free books for the kindle on Amazon, including the HG Wells collection for $0.99, etc...)

    8. Re: Faster Than The Other Side by telomerewhythere · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How could you make a robot into a human legally? Incorporate it.

      There's a work-play there with corporal, but it eludes me...hey Rachel, ... hey, Rosen!

    9. Re: Faster Than The Other Side by YourExperiment · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The very phrasing of your question seems to reveal a prejudice towards free market thinking. I would contend that it's just this kind thinking which we have to fight against, if we're ever to come to terms with the problem.

      Why "handouts"? If robots are doing all the work more efficiently than humans, the net result is not a bunch of worthless humans requiring handouts - it's a bunch of humans who are suddenly free to devote their lives to science, or to art, or even to sheer pleasure if they wish, while robots tend to their more mundane physical needs.

      Of course, in a "free market economy" it won't work out that way, because the guy who paid for the robots in the first place will rake in the money that would have gone to his work force, and keep it all for himself. Meanwhile the people who would previously have worked for him starve. We need to start thinking in a new way, or this state of affairs will come to pass before the middle of this century.

    10. Re: Faster Than The Other Side by YourExperiment · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sounds like we fundamentally agree on what we'd do, we just have different terms for it. To me, even calling it "handouts" means thinking in terms of the current, pre-abundance world. If there's plenty for everyone, who would be handing out to whom? If the robots and computers handle everything, why would any one person or entity have any more right to resources than any other (regardless of whether said person or entity decided to use their position to "help out the lesser people").

      But I totally agree with you that it's an interesting question! Incidentally, have you read any of the Culture novels by Iain M Banks? They have an interesting take on such a society - only as background to the stories, rather than some kind of blueprint of how it might be achieved, but still interesting stuff.

    11. Re: Faster Than The Other Side by rwv · · Score: 2

      Good roofs and fresh paint on a sharp looking lawn without human effort would be a shocker. But what does that do to an economy. We don't even know if humans should be involved in an economy or whether we best let robots and computers serve us all things that we need.

      It's probably too late for this comment to get modded high enough for many people to see it, but I'm in the process of polishing/publishing a speculative fiction novel that attacks this topic. Preview version is available here.

      I think the basic social motivation will evolve to (a) robots do boring work, (b) humans do creative work. Certainly, a robot driven economy will be capable of supporting a centralized leadership, but as long as the general population is given enough freedom to basically do whatever they want within a loose social construct it's hard to imagine many people would complain. Though, naturally a big part of a lot of speculative fiction is "Post Scarcity Economy" (which implies that enough resources are available to support everybody [regardless of whether they do any work or not] so that nobody is left wanting).

      Two concepts that are truly impossible to anticipate the outcomes of... ruling classes are predisposed to nepotism and cronyism and these things invariably lead to corruption. The other thing is all centralized governments support censorship to a certain degree and it's impossible to draw a line where censorship can be enforced without removing people's freedom. It's not clear how robotics can be used to address these two concerns.

  6. Or to be briefe and blunt. by gbutler69 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Most people are STUPID!

    --
    Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
  7. Re:What change? by Rogerborg · · Score: 4, Funny

    That's a ridiculously superficial assessment; there's also a lot more porn around.

    --
    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  8. Little surprise by mseeger · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't think there is much in the current world to surprise you, if you've read John Brunners The Shockwave Rider. The biggest surprise is when you look at the time it was published: 1975. It has always astounded me, how clearly Johns eyes have seen....

    There are so many good quotes in that book, that you could make nearly a second book out of them. My favorite: There are two kinds of fools: One says, "This is old therefore it is good." The other one says, "This is new therefore it is better."

    I think the thesis "Speculative fiction, however, if widely adopted, makes it almost instinctive that we think about these situations and possible outcomes before they even arise" is correct. At least i can say it worked for me.

    CU, Martin

  9. Re:What change? by JoshuaZ · · Score: 2, Informative

    When were you born? Sure the tech changes now aren't as extreme as they may have been in some other historical time periods (around 1900 the radio, car, and airplane all showed up in only a few years) but we do have a lot of technological change still happening. Moreover, the technological change that is happening is change that raises ethical concerns. For example, surveillance technology and other technologies that raise privacy issues have become far more advanced. Medical technologies of all sorts (genetic engineering of all sorts is a very recent issue) have become far more common and practical. Moreover, the pace looks like it is going to continue. And these are but a few examples. There are many others which bring up both ethical and societal issues. It might seem like the only change in the last 20 years has been cell-phones, but that just means that one hasn't been paying that much attention to technologies that aren't in your pocket or on your desk.

  10. I don't know about the whole species... by dunkelfalke · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ... but if I don't read a SF book for three days I start going mad. For some people escapism is very important for staying sane - even Tolkien recognised that:

    "Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home? Or if, when he cannot do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than jailers and prison-walls?"

    --
    "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
  11. Load of old psychobable by petes_PoV · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Constant change is here to stay.

    Really, there have always been people who are unable or unwilling to deal with change. It's nothing new and it certainly isn't getting worse with time. 100 years ago some individuals were having a tough time dealing with the idea of mass population moving to the new fangled "factories" (or as they were originally called: manufactories) and leaving the farming life behind. 50 years ago some people were having a hard time coming to terms with the social changes hitting society - lack of respect, sexual freedom and all this rock-n-roll.

    So no, I don't buy the basic premise and I certainly disagree with the idea that the people who are insecure about change will want to read books about even more change.

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
  12. Danger, Will Robinson!!!! by John+Guilt · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I basically agree that science fiction can help forearm us for making reasonable decisions, but think there's a danger of people swallowing authors' interpretations of what the effects of different developments might entail whole. Roy Blount reports that a man was once asked if he '...believed in infant babtism', and he responded 'Believe it? I've seen it done!' Though we can tell reality from fantasy (and science fiction...incorporating the worlds of if), some works can make impressions to the point that people treat them as if they were evidence.

    This can range from a shrill 'Any altruist or collectivist government action will lead to disaster---I saw that happen in Atlas Shrugged!' to a smug 'All giant corporations are evil---I saw that in every sci-fi movie from 1970 onward,' to an arse-hurt 'Charles Stross is wrong when he says that space colonisation is probably impractical---I've seen it happen in 99% of the books I've read since the age of 8.' Again, the problem is that within a book the author has control not only of what arguments are presented, but of who presents them (either the estimable Wesley Mouch or that obnoxious and long-winded Galt/Ananconda/Swaggart crowd) and what happens when one idea or another is put into practice (think of a notional authors' fictional contention that a Marxist revolution---a Marxist one, mind you---would be followed massive State Capitalism, suppression of workers' rights, and the like).

    I think this is a particular danger in a society where 1.) so many religious fanatics insist that their children be taught that one particular book's premises, observations, and conclusions must be treated as infallible, and also 2.) many science fiction fans think, 'I'm so much more clever than those religious fanatics, I'd never be that gullible,' which is one of the stigmata of a mark. Newt Gingrich, Cory Doctorow, and that woman in the Dorsai merc outfit at that Westercon who apparently jills-off to the thought of our getting Starship Trooper's political system all come to mind.

  13. Stories With Messages by Garrett+Fox · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Summarized the article just says, "SF is good because it helps us think about stuff -- but not that icky lowbrow SF like Star Trek; that's practically porn."

    That's not a fair distinction. The author dismisses Trek, which in the 60s had some ham-fisted attempts at an Important Message (mainly re: race), and puts "Avatar" in that category even though it has a (stupid, hypocritical) moral message too. So it's not having A Message that makes for the kind of SF the author likes. The article's more like a guide to making movies that will get whipped in profits by the latest Star Trek. For good or ill, I hear some people were deeply affected by "Avatar", so that sort of movie is capable of being deep and meaningful in some people's eyes.

    I wrote an SF novel recently. There was supposed to be a Message in it. I'd read enough SF to know that making the Important Message blatant and heavy-handed is a way to ruin an otherwise decent story; famous example "Atlas Shrugged". What I found to be a good solution is to focus on being entertaining first, with plot and character being much more important than the Deep Philosophical Implications. The same group of characters could've been used to tell a story with a different message, if the character development had gone a different way ("This cause isn't worth killing over!"), and that's a good thing.

    So, if anyone wants to apply the article's advice, they should interpret it as, "Write stories with meaningful takes on the possible future -- but they should be stories first."

    (One bit of snootiness: I've got a theory that a way to describe character growth is a two-axis method. One axis is, "Can the hero find the strength to do what he's trying to do?" and the other, harder-to-write one is, "Is the hero questioning what he should do?" Simpler stories tend not to bother much with the second one, but overusing it gets angsty and annoying quickly.)

    --
    Revive the Constitution.
  14. Whereas with Syfy... by feepness · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You can keep up on the latest trends in who Marsha might be attracted to besides Curtis! And is the Jennifer's baby actually Devon's? And will Steve ever come out of that coma, and if he does, what will happen to June and Chris?

  15. prior art(icle) by G_bass_luthier · · Score: 2, Informative

    Reminds me of a much earlier article by Athena Andreadis: http://www.starshipreckless.com/stories/archives/The%20Double%20Helix.pdf The Wired article's author is listed as 'admin'.... wonder if admin has read any of Athena's articles... Of course, there is nothing new. No doubt many have penned similar sentiments before. I'd take a slightly different tack and suggest that imaginative work in any realm is not only essential, but part of the human construct. We thrive on extending our possibilities through thought experiment. We stagnate when the imagination fails.

  16. Re:Ecomist's solution by sammyF70 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So, the stupid people sit around and collect a check from the Government?

    "so the poor people sit around and collect a check from the Government?"

    There ... nearly fixed it for you. Only nearly as it often seems to me that many rich people already just sit there and get checks from the government (just that it's generally a lot higher than welfare)

    --
    "DRM is like the Ford Pinto: it's a smooth ride, right up the point at which it explodes and ruins your day."-C.Doctorow
  17. I wish I could believe it by AmElder · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I had a teacher as a child who told me "art teaches us how to be human." It's a compelling idea that neatly sums up my experience with novels, music, theatre, and some movies. I think, though, if it can also be a deceptive illusion that distracts us and convinces us the world is better than it is and we ourselves are kinder, more knowledgeable, better meaning, more competent than we really are.

    If I understand the article right, the idea is that speculative sci-fi helps people beat future shock. By reading/viewing speculative stories, models of good technology use lodge in our minds and we get prepared to make decisions about using tools that come to us. I can see that. But counter that rosy image with the idea that stories featuring high technology instead train us to acquiesce to technology in our lives, not making conscious choices but instead sleepwalking into an isolated, un-fun, inhuman world all the while under the illusion that we're in control of the process.

    I'm inclined to think that the best way to make good choices is by paying attention to the here and now, not by putting "the logical part of our brains... 100% in the future at all times." We can recognize good technology by seeing the good it does in our lives, not by comparing it Blade Runner, Star Trek, or District 9. (or Snowcrash, Red Mars, or Neuromancer). Marry that with social interaction, so that adopting/creating new technology is a communal, connected process and we have a good chance of making good decisions.

  18. Re:What change? by korean.ian · · Score: 2, Informative

    If all you look at is the internet and cellphones then yes, changes haven't been drastic (merely progressive).
    But in terms of genetics? robotics? medical technology? Just because you can't see them doesn't make those changes non-significant.

  19. What "exponential change? by Animats · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The article has much blithering about "exponential change", probably written by someone who has no idea what that means, or that the exponent might be < 1. Actually, the rate of change in lifestyle for the average person in the developed world is slowing down. And much of the change is negative.

    It's useful to think of the Industrial Revolution as starting in 1808. That's the first year someone bought a train ticket and went someplace. Technology prior to that was spotty and didn't have much broad impact. Most people never got more than 50 miles from where they were born, just as in the previous 5000 years or so.

    Jump ahead 50 years, to 1858. Railroads were all over France, Germany, Britain, and the eastern US. Telegraph lines were widespread. The first Atlantic cable was just starting to work. Heavy machinery and big factories were producing goods in volume. The world had become much smaller, and there was far more man-made stuff in it. The life of someone who lived from 1808 to 1858 changed enormously during one lifespan.

    Jump ahead to 1908. Railroads to everywhere worth going. Electric power. Telephones. Wireless. Cars. The first airplanes. Much more manufacturing. The world of 1908 had early versions of most of the important stuff we have now, yet it was a century ago.

    Jump ahead to 1958. Almost everything we have now already existed. Jet aircraft, nuclear power plants, space satellites, transistors, computers, television, Interstate highways, data communications - they were all up and running. The first IC was proposed in 1958. Antibiotics were available, and DNA had been identified. Manufacturing was so good that production gluts were common. Agriculture in the developed world was producing so much food that surpluses were a major issue.

    Now look at the last 50 years. All the stuff from 1958 works, usually better, but most of what's happened since then is tweaks on 1958 technology. No new big sources of energy. No big progress in space travel in 40 years. Progress has slowed down. Per capita income real for the median American hasn't increased much in 40 years. Corporate leaders don't even talk about "progress" any more; just "change".

    The next 50 years are going to be about running out of stuff. Oil, copper, neodymium, and tantalum are already getting scarce. Substitutes all use more energy and money. A century ago, raw materials were available near where they were used. The easy to get at resources have already been extracted. It looks like it's all downhill from here.

    Which is why SF has lost its optimism. Popular SF today is either space opera or about vampires. Or it's about a realistic, but grim, near future. SF is now just entertainment; it has no major cultural function, other than perhaps preparing us for the future society of scarcity.

    "My grandfather rode a camel, my father rode a camel, I drive a Mercedes, my son drives a Land Rover, his son will drive a Land Rover, but his son will ride a camel." - Rashid bin Saeed Al Maktoum, Emir of Dubai.

  20. I wonder if dreams are similar ... by swframe · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I didn't RTFA but I've wondered if dreams are similar. When faced with a similar situation, do people use their dream experiences to help make a quicker decision. I wonder if deja vu is just the feeling of experiencing something from a forgotten dream.

  21. Oh okay by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ATM's. I saw the first being installed in holland, before that if you wanted cash, you had to get it from a bank.

    Phone boots were the only way to make a call outside your house, and they had paper phone books installed that we NOT stolen in seconds.

    Computers were hooked up to your tv, that had a knob to tune it. Programs came on casettes, if you could afford it, else you had to retype your program each time. And yes, I did this.

    Movies had animatronics and we thought it was the most amazing thing ever. Three enemy fighters at once! The hight of technology.

    Kirk was the one true captain of the Enterprise and he never EVER called a conference meeting.

    There was portable music, it was a record player that was a large orange oblong with a slot in the side that you could put a record in, that stuck out on all sides.

    Sony owned the walkman and they were cool.

    Pong was the height of CGI

    MS had yet to steal the GUI.

    Everyone was complaining about those Asians stealing all our production job. No, the other ones.

    Apples were expensive. Oh wait...

    The americans were driving V8's that guzzled gas despite the oil shortage...

    You are right, everything is the same, just with cellphones.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  22. Manna by Marshall Brain by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is probably the story you remember (Manna by Marshall Brain):
        http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm
    He proposes something like a basic income:
        http://www.basicincome.org/bien/aboutbasicincome.html
    But there are other approaches - a gift economy, or a local subsistence economy using 3D printers, or some other approaches.
       

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  23. Post-scarcity society... by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 2, Interesting

    We will need to move to some sort of post-scarcity society. Some stuff I wrote here:
        http://www.pdfernhout.net/post-scarcity-princeton.html
    Marshall Brain wrote some ideas here:
        http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm
    I helped organize this article listing more ideas by various authors:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobless_recovery

    The conclusion there: "Dealing with a jobless recovery presents global society with some difficult choices about values and identity. A straightforward way to keep the current scarcity-based economic system going in the face of the "threat" of abundance (and limited demand) resulting in a related jobless recovery is to use things like endless low-level war, perpetual schooling, expanded prisons, increased competition, and excessive bureaucracy to provide any amount of make-work jobs to soak up the abundance from high-technology (as well as to take any amount of people off the streets in various ways). That seems to be the main path that the USA and other countries have been going down so far, perhaps unintentionally. Alternatively, there are a range of other options to chose from, whether moving towards a gift economy, a resource-based economy, a basic income economy, or strong local communitarian economies, and to some extent, the USA and other countries have also been pursuing these options as well, but in a less coherent way. Ultimately, the approaches taken to move beyond a jobless recovery (either by creating jobs or by learning to live happily without them) involves political choices that will reflect national and global values, priorities, identities, and aspirations."

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  24. Limited demand and rising productivity mean change by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Healthy humans only need so much stuff. Automation may be good for firms that do it, but if demand is limited, jobs disappear in the system. That's why capitalist systems must grow continually, to create new jobs to make up for productivity increases. The problem is, too much stuff actually can get in the way of a good life, since good human relations are generally the most important part of a happy life and too much stuff distracts from that. Also, right now, much stuff has negative external costs involved in its creation (though we may someday move beyond that).

    Here is some sci-fi on ironies in a world of abundance:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midas_World
    ""The Midas Plague" (originally published in Galaxy in 1954). In this new world of cheap energy, robots are overproducing the commodities enjoyed by mankind. So now the "poor" are forced to spend their lives in frantic consumption, trying to keep up with the robots' extravagant production, so that the "rich" can live lives of simplicity. This story deals with the life of a man named Morey Fry, who marries a girl from a higher class. She is unused to a life of consumption and it wears at their marriage. ..."

    But, that would still be a big shift from what we have now, which is based on the idea that people only have a right to consume based on the value of their labor. This was talked about back in the 1960s in a letter sent to President Johnson in 1964:
    http://educationanddemocracy.org/FSCfiles/C_CC2a_TripleRevolution.htm

    To deal with increasing automation destroying the value of most labor given limited demand, what we need more is a global sharing of the wealth produced by an automated industrial commons, which means taxes for a basic income
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income
    or transitioning to another economic model like a gift economy or a subsistence economy or something else. The big issue is not so much automation (although there are aspects that are negative of loss of control or loss of joy in hands on work that you may love) but the issue of how the fruits of automation get distributed. Related on three different visions of work we need to bring together for the 21st century:
    http://www.smallisbeautiful.org/buddhist_economics/english.html
    http://www.whywork.org/rethinking/whywork/abolition.html
    http://www.papert.org/articles/HardFun.html

    Think of this example: someone sets up vending machines powered by solar panels in every community, and these machines print wood shaped to order for very low prices, and the machines take next-to-no labor to keep going. Basically, what you outlined, only even better (maybe the devices just suck carbon and water from the air to make the wood). Your company can't compete with the prices and quality and speedy delivery, so everyone you employ is laid off. The owner of this enterprise, who owns all the patents and who gets all the money, decides to pile it under his or her mattress, or alternatively, gamble it in high stakes poker games (called derivatives :-) that just move to higher and higher stakes. Where are the new jobs there? Sure, that company may make a few new jobs, but overall, lots of labor is saved, so there is a net negative as far as jobs, because healthy people only need so much wood. The only reason to even worry about jobs is this issue of the right to consume, as well as government enforcing monopolies on land or patents or copyrights, since otherwise there is so much abundance we could organize the economy differently, like GNU/Lin

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  25. Lots of exponential progress in other areas by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You missed the revolutions in network connectedness (and global consciousness),
      http://www.global-mindshift.org/memes/wombat.swf
    robotics, materials, genetics, and design tools. Examples of the state of the art in robots:
        http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/2009-November/005926.html

    Here is an index into stuff I wrote on why doomsters are wrong about material issues (but may be right about social issues):
        http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/2009-August/thread.html#4123

    We are not running out of stuff or energy by any means. The human imagination is the ultimate resource (as Julian Simon suggests). Are you suggesting optical fiber uses more energy that copper?

    On earth, we can recycle and use renewables (or other energy sources even -- whether nuclear or coal), and there are enough resources in the solar system to support quadrillions of humans at a higher than current US standard of living, building thousands of Earth's worth of area in space habitats. How can we be running out of, say, metals when we just need to mine the landfills to get them back? The US auto industry has also become a *net* producer of metal as people downsize cars. And if we switched to electric cars, we would use less electricity (since it takes more electricity to make a gallon of gas than it takes to make an electric car go the same distance as a gasoline car).
        "Why luxury safer electric cars should be free-to-the-user"
        http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/09eb7f4c973349f2?hl=en

    Try James P. Hogan or Iain Banks or Ursula K. Le Guin for something different in sci-fi.

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  26. Re:Ecomist's solution by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Everyone could get a basic income, even millionaires:
        "Basic income from a millionaire's perspective? "
        http://www.pdfernhout.net/basic-income-from-a-millionaires-perspective.html
    "One may ask, why should millionaires support a basic income as depicted in Marshall Brain's Australia Project fictional example in "Manna", but, say, right now in the USA, of US$2000 a month per person (with some deducted for universal health insurance), or $24K per year? With about 300 million residents in the USA, this would require about seven trillion US dollars a year, or half the current US GDP. Surely such a proposal would be a disaster for millionaires in terms of crushing taxes? Or would it?"

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  27. Hm... by jvonk · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Think of this example: someone sets up vending machines powered by solar panels in every community, and these machines print wood shaped to order for very low prices, and the machines take next-to-no labor to keep going. Basically, what you outlined, only even better (maybe the devices just suck carbon and water from the air to make the wood). Your company can't compete with the prices and quality and speedy delivery, so everyone you employ is laid off. The owner of this enterprise, who owns all the patents and who gets all the money, decides to pile it under his or her mattress[...]

    Dude: I am no forensics master, but aren't you violating a basic premise of debate by countering the GP's actual example with a speculative future scenario in which you cherry-picked the parameters to bolster your agenda?

    If that is a legitimate debate tactic, then one presumes he could counter with a similarly cherry-picked scenario where he and his firm counter the structural shift in their industry by developing "programs" for these devices to create "fad wood cut designs of the week" (ala iPhone). He would then consolidate his firm's massive profits and, of course, go on to personally develop economical nanotechnology and nuclear fusion--thereby ending scarcity for the entire world!

    ...not as nice of a tactic when used both sides, it seems.

    Aside from that, it seems that most of your concerns miss the point that most of your future scenarios result in one of two general outcomes. One possibility is that the trend away from agriculture to manufacturing, and then away from manufacturing to services, and then away from services to "aaaa! no more work for Americans!" is economically sustainable at a national level, then there is no problem. In such a case, the general wealth level of the nation (and the society at large) is high enough that we are borderline post-scarcity (otherwise, markets for 'new things/services' would emerge). That is, one way or another, we continue to be to afford to pay other countries to "make stuff" for us. Don't know how we would manage to do that, but good for us if so.

    However, what if such a trend is unsustainable? I believe this to be the more likely case. In that case, China (et al) stops feeling the urge to continue to inflate our standard of living by floating our colossal trade deficits. I mean, what are we giving today them besides US Treasury IOU's? (the fact that they can trade US dollars for oil is notwithstanding, because eventually the world will decide that the farce has gone on long enough if they value nothing we produce) Okay, so, now the value of our dollar plummets, we aren't getting our market flooded by goods that are manufactured at prices with which we can't compete domestically, and then suddenly we start finding it is cost-effective to manufacture in the US again.

    Of course, everyone in the US is poorer on average in the latter scenario, because free trade tends to be ruthlessly efficient--and inefficiency is expensive. For example, it isn't efficient to pay a union worker $40/hour + benefits to screw on jar lids, when a robot could do it much faster, more accurately, and more cheaply. Are you aware that you share the same concerns as the original Luddites? The structural economic shifts in efficiency brought by technological progress have been beneficial to the economy & society as a whole, and there are two centuries of evidence to support this.

    Of course, individual actors must "evolve or die", just as the buggywhip manufacturers needed to migrate into manufacturing automobile tires (or bondage gear, depending on their marketing department's forecasts). Anyone can predict dire economic scenarios due to technological advances, but you will forgive me if I believe that they are unlikely given the overwhelming preponderance of the historical evidence.

  28. Re:Social Change?! by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I am almost 30 years old, during my lifetime there were no wars (in my country...), no major new Ideology like socialism, communism or facism was born, or grew strong and even the liberalization trends in society were thoroughly solid before I was even born. Sure, the internet, cloning, blablabla, all nice and dandy, but compared to the horrific political and social clash of ideologies in the past its almost like we reached a plateau.

    I was contemplating this myself earlier this week; looking back over the last five hundred years, there has been a seemingly un-ending series of massive shake-ups, including the genocide of the Amerindians, numerous revolutions in Europe, a couple of world wars, the invention cars and planes and the telephone.

    But the feeling that we've reached a plateau is a total illusion, promoted by our TV culture. --Which, in itself is a significant movement, though I don't think you can define it as 'political' per se, but as a socially defining force, it is easily on par with such experiments as the now old political ideologies in terms of scope and power. And TV is really new. At 30, you won't remember, but when I was a kid TVs were only just becoming ubiquitous and kids still played outside and worked their brains in a very different way than they do today. I can see the difference between TV kids and those who do are not plugged in, and it's night and day. That item by itself is a massive change, but due to the change itself, is nearly invisible unless one is paying attention.) Today, I can walk along a darkening street around Prime Time, and if I look up at an apartment building, I'll see 80% or more of the windows flickering Borg-blue light as all the people plug in for their daily dose of television "programming".

    It's at moments like these that I realize we are right now living in a period of history which will be named and discussed intently in future history classes, (though, I doubt there will even be people to teach given the train wreck of our species currently in progress.)

    It is my opinion that we live in hands-down the most interesting times which have come along in a few thousand years. Going from seven billion people to a couple million in short order is a pretty interesting event.

    -And if you're interested in political things, then the decision in the US last week to allow corporations freedom of speech wrt political campaign support is enough to make your head spin.

    Just my opinion.

    -FL