Prison Bans D&D For Mimicking Gang Structure

Trepidity writes "In a case that has been winding its way through the courts for a while now, a Wisconsin prison banned inmates from playing Dungeons & Dragons, using the justification that 'one player is denoted the Dungeon Master... [who] is tasked with giving directions to other players... [which] mimics the organization of a gang.' The prison also cited some sparse evidence that a handful of non-inmate D&D players once committed some crimes that allegedly were related to their D&D playing. On Monday the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the regulation (PDF) against challenges from inmates. The court appeared skeptical of the ban, sarcastically referring to it as the 'war on D&D,' but upheld it nonetheless as having a 'rational basis.' Law professor Ilya Somin suggests that the court may have had no choice, given how deferential rational-basis review usually is."

Comments

Is it just D&D ?

[VShael]

What if they played any other sort of RPG?

Or is the law so nutty that they'll ban boardgames like Clue because it features a murder? Or Colditz, because it features escaping from a prison?

Re:Is it just D&D ?

[HungryHobo]

I think this comes under socialising and if you don't let people people socialise to a minimum extent it can screw up their minds.
In other words if you lock someone up in a room with nothing but a pile of food,books and some weights equipment for a few years they probably come out more than somewhat messed up in the head.

It occurs to me that it's like someone found that making their child go sit in the corner alone for 10 minutes when they were somewhat bad was a decent punishment and then tried to just sort of scale up the time and how far away the corner was for more serious offences and didn't consider that some things don't scale well...

Re:Is it just D&D ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I did a couple year stint for a drug crime and we played D&D all the time. We made different sided dice out of paper and cardboard. The guards only issue was when we made maps. They would often take our maps and make sure they weren't of the facility I was in. The dice were another issue as they were officially contraband, and when some guards were on duty we couldn't play.

D&D was an awesome time waster and great fantasy get away.

Re:Is it just D&D ?

[martyros]

I think prison is bad enough; and if you make it really terrible, then you get screwed up people coming out the other end.

Also, it may be that you actually get a lot of enjoyment and refreshment out of "educational reading", and don't particularly enjoy football. But not everyone is of that bent: Imagine being sent to a prison where you *weren't* allowed educational reading, but *only* playing football. A little bit of "release" can change an unpleasant situation from unbearable to bearable.

Disclaimer: I'm certainly no expert, but I have visited a prison at least once. :-)

Re:Is it just D&D ?

[mdwh2]

It's prison. It's punishment.

Well that's the point - if it was the case that any form of entertainment or pasttime was banned because it's meant to be a punishment, then sure, fine. But last time I looked, this wasn't the case.

RTFA. They didn't ban it because "Prisoners shouldn't have fun", they banned it because of "Mimicking Gang Structure". That's a mad claim, and it's fair game for us to ridicule it. Furthermore, it reflects badly on D&D, and anyone who plays those games, by associating it with gangs, and generally pushing the idea that it's bad.

What if another story came along and said "Prisoners are banned from playing Grand Theft Auto because it encourages gangs."

Then it would be nothing to do with your claim of banning it because it's fun and prison's supposed to be a punishment.

It doesn't matter the fucking justification, it's prison.

Wait - the whole premise for your argument was that the justification was it's a prison and it's meant to be a punishment. Which is it?

Re:Is it just D&D ?

[camperdave]

Another thing to do might be to make it mandatory for everyone to spend a week volunteering at a prison. Most people's ideas of prison are what they see in the movies.

Re:Is it just D&D ?

[TheCarp]

> Do these elements show socialization skills? Cooperative ability? Evaluation of morals? Imagine if the prison ruled that all
> players must be Lawful Good.

Then players will secretly be chaotic evil, masquerading as lawful good. Let's see them stop that!

> If I were imprisoned, I'd consider it a significant investment in an opportunity to work hard on improving myself, so as to no
> longer be a detriment to society.

I am not sure that I am comfortable with the assumption that being in prison means being a detriment to society. There are several ways to end up in prison where the detriment to society is quite debatable. I would hope, that if I found myself in prison, it would be for one of those reasons and I wouldn't have to feel bad about myself, simply wronged by the machinery of society.

In any case, I would start with reflecting on whether you actually have anything to rehabilitate. Given how the law is made, and who it is made by, its nowhere near the best standard for figuring out right from wrong. Piss poor one actually.

-Steve

Re:Is it just D&D ?

[Dogun]

It's not just D & D; they banned all fantasy roleplaying.

Now that I've read the decision, I'm a little more annoyed.

The prison officials provided evidence in the form of testimony, from one of the prison officials who claims to be a gang expert. The court appeared to find his testimony regarding gang structure unchallanged, so let that stand.

They found that regulating gangs was reasonable, that Singer could play other games instead, that if it does lead to gang activity, that will put a strain on prison resources, and fourth, that the prison couldn't really curb the behavior without banning the game. (Which is apparently what you need to have to pass the Turner test for prison regulations.)

A few cases referencing D&D were cited as well, but not addressed. The prison gang expert also said that fantasy role-playing was escapist behavior and could impede rehabilation; despite the extensive amount of affidavits provided by Singer's side to the contrary, the court let that statement stand.

He's got an appeal open on first amendment grounds. His 96-pages of notes for a single campaign sound to me like a pretty compelling sort of expression. Who knows? Maybe the court will decides that collaborative storytelling is protected.

Re:Is it just D&D ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think prison is bad enough; and if you make it really terrible, then you get screwed up people coming out the other end.

In our age of corporate "for profit" prisons, try not to think of them as "screwed up people coming out the other end" just consider this to be creating "return customers" or to be "fostering employee loyalty".

Re:Is it just D&D ?

[Opportunist]

Sorry to break it to you, but no. Nobody breaking the law thinks of the consequences.

Take bank robberies. About 90% of the culprits are caught within the first 48 hours. Another 9% within two weeks. This is basically common knowledge, at least around here. Yet still people go and rob banks. Few of them with any sensible preparations. It's a spur of the moment thing, often and usually based on desperation. You can see that in the statistics because the cases get more and more just before Christmas and usually the annual peak is in the week before.

Do you think anyone of them thought about the 10 years of prison waiting for him?

The repetition rate is stunningly low, that's true. Mostly because in prison they learn it's much easier (and possibly even more profitable) to rob gas stations and 7/11s.

Re:Is it just D&D ?

[Desmanthus]

Imagine if the prison ruled that all players must be Lawful Good.

In campaigns I've played, the worst atrocities were usually committed by the paladins of Pelor.

Re:Is it just D&D ?

[Count Fenring]

Those people are ignoring several facts, notably that negative reinforcement loses power when the object is out of sight, and that people in prison will eventually get out in all but the most severe of cases.

The pure deterrent model doesn't work. In fact, once sentences become uniformly harsh, it actually serves to increase criminal activity. Once you're locked up for twenty years whether you've stolen a loaf of bread or a car, you can logically rationalize stealing big, since the punishment is the same. And once punishment passes a certain point, what does it matter if it's 35 or 45 years - it's such a huge THING that the difference doesn't matter.

This has been seen in places that make extensive use of the death penalty - once most crimes are punishable by death, dangerous, high-impact crime goes UP sharply.

And, let's say that we turn prison into a nightmare punishment (honestly, our lack of proper management does this most times, anyway, by turning a blind eye to endemic abuse and rape problems). So, ten years later, Jimmy comes out of prison traumatized, unable to connect socially to his peers, stigmatized as a criminal, etc, etc. What the hell does he do?

Re:Is it just D&D ?

[BobMcD]

How can you be rational and be a self-described fundamentalist at the same time?

This is only a paradox for you because you're holding one word firmly (fundamentalist) while allowing the other one to be fluid (rational).

For example, your question becomes a lot more obvious like this:

How can you be obsessively rational and be a self-described extreme fundamentalist at the same time?

Clearly you can't.

On the other hand, an extreme amount of reason leads to paranoia and eventually insanity. At some point we have to assume that we can rely on previous conclusions and stop second-guessing everything. We use a little faith to believe that gravity will hold our shoes to the floor, and we walk to the bathroom without thinking about it and without taking any precautions that we might fly off the face of the earth. We don't feel the need to do Newtonian experiments every time we stand up. There's some faith at play. Ergo fundamentalist religion, only for a different topic and knowledge/information from other sources.

Re:Is it just D&D ?

[hairyfeet]

I don't know about that pal. I live in the Bible Belt and I find Fundies scary as hell! Why are they scary? Because the vast majority of them have this ability to just turn off critical thought at will. If Pastor Joe says "it is thus" then it is thus, the end. The vast majority will never question, or look for anything to prove/disprove what Pastor Joe said, it is "Pastor Joe says it is thus and that's the way it is" and I find that kind of thoughtless obedience quite scary. It is like they want to not think for themselves, and just want to obey, like their entire life is some sort of boot camp. I find that attitude scary as hell.

Maybe it is just me but come down here to the south and see for yourself, as we have waaaaaay too many Fundies, and just about all of them will make the hair on the back of your neck stand up.

Re:Is it just D&D ?

[Anonymous Coward]

When I was in public school and playing D&D (not to imply that it was as bad as prison, just that it is another illogical institution) dice were also banned as gambling paraphernalia. The teachers looked at our dice and just told us to put the 6-sided dice away.

Re:Is it just D&D ?

[hairyfeet]

Being in the north you are luckier there though my friend. Here in the bible belt (AR right smack dab in the center) it is truly scary how much the Fundies are like brainless zombies.

I begged my late sister to sue the school district (she chose to home school instead) because even the TEACHERS would attack students who were "different" or "satanic" or any other bullshit that pastor Leroy said was evil that week. What finally ended my boys public school experience is a teacher bringing a bible to the middle of class (this is public school now) and gave a lecture on "satanic idol worshipers(catholic, which my oldest is) and Godless sodomites (the youngest is gay)" when we charged down there to have a royal shit fit the principal said "what do you expect? We are Christians and don't tolerate 'those kind" in our midst."

Frankly I would worship Satan before I ever became a Christian, thanks to the years of hatred and bigotry I have seen thanks to the Fundies. There is NO DIFFERENCE between a Fundie Christian and Muslim. The only reason you don't see Christians blowing up abortion clinics and stringing up gays is because Pastor Joe likes his Lexus and doesn't want to risk getting sued by the victims families. But believe me I have NEVER met a more hate filled people, and their ability to just turn off their minds and do whatever the pastor tells them to is truly horrifying to me.

If you are a Fundamentalist that actually thinks I'm afraid you are in the most tiny of minorities pal, sorry to say. I am pretty much surrounded by them and if the pastor told them to shoot up a building I have no doubt it would be on the news tomorrow. Truly terrifying.

Playing games in prison

[s1lverl0rd]

Why are inmates playing games anyway? They have lots of time - shouldn't they spend that time learning pottery/cooking/raising kids/social skills/programming so that they are fun people by the time they get out of jail?

Work Programs

[Nerdfest]

Well, I hope these people don't participate in any work training programs. Those are also structured disturbing like gangs, with a leader and people specializing in different things. I think some people have also committed crimes while at work.

You know what else mimicks gang structure??

[Hurricane78]

HUMANITY!

This is pure hunter/gatherer humanity: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/12/hadza/finkel-text
Tell me that does not prove that the natural structure of human society is that of gangs!?

Man, stupid, stupid, STUPID.

Re:Escapism

[Dunbal]

I doubt that is the case. Unless you believe that a very large percentage of Americans have personality disorders and don't qualify as humans.

      You present a non sequitur. First of all, that's not what I said. Only around 3% of the general population have anti social personality disorder. Secondly I made no comparison to other countries. However Up to 80% of prison populations have this disorder (the cited article says 75%, in med school I learned 80%). This is logical since the people who commit the crimes are more likely to be caught and sent to prison, so you will end up with a concentrating effect of the disorder in the prison population. No one said "American", and I don't have comparative data for other countries around the world. However it would be reasonable to assume that there's nothing special about "Americans" in particular, and similar statistics must exist in other countries.

If you wanted to create a well-adjusted person would you lock your child up with a bunch of murderers, arsonists and rapists as the only humans to interact with?

      I do not think that the current model is the best model. As a preventive and deterrent system, it is clearly broken. As for rehabilitation, well, that's a joke too. Frankly my own views are rather extreme, and will never be implemented, and are certainly a violation of human rights. But we were talking about the actual world we live in.

The problem is that putting people in prison for rehabilitation is the worst plan since Abe Lincoln said to his wife: "I'm sick of sitting around the house, let's catch a play."

      Agreed. But you just can't hang them in public anymore.

Re:Should they be playing games in prison, anyway?

[mdwh2]

I have rights, and I have the right to call people on their nonsense when they try to brand D&D as being related to gangs, and that it's a negative influence.

Would it be okay if the prison decided to ban reading the Bible? Imagine the uproar that would cause.