Is Programming a Lucrative Profession?

itwbennett writes "A pamphlet distributed by blogger Cameron Laird's local high school proclaimed that 'Computer Science BS graduates can expect an annual salary from $54,000-$74,000. Starting salaries for MS and PhD graduates can be to up to $100,000' and 'employment of computer scientists is expected to grow by 24 percent from 2010 to 2018.' The pamphlet lists The US Federal Bureau of Labor Statistics as a reference, so how wrong can it be? 'This is so wrong, I don't know where to start,' says Laird. 'There are a lot of ways to look at the figures, but only the most skewed ones come up with starting salaries approaching $60,000 annually, and I see plenty of programmers in the US working for less,' says Laird. At issue, though, isn't so much inaccurate salary information as what is happening to programming as a career: 'Professionalization of programmers nowadays strikes chords more like those familiar to auto mechanics or nurses than the knowledge workers we once thought we were,' writes Laird, 'we're expected to pay for our own tools, we're increasingly bound by legal entanglements, H1B accumulates degrading tales, and hyperspecialization dominates hiring decisions.'"

Comments

Are nerds not aware

[Loco3KGT]

That they are essentially mechanics? They're just not auto mechanics, they're more or less computer or software mechanics?

That shouldn't be a surprise to any. Especially as we see more about self-fixing computers, the furthering of object oriented programming which is leading to simpler and simpler APIs so you don't even have to be a programmer to make things happen. Or technologies like Sharepoint where you don't even have to have a GED to prop up multiple sites / data sources, etc.

Re:Are nerds not aware

[Cassini2]

That's ridiculous. C++ is just as predictable in a system as C is. C++ memory allocation is completely deterministic as to WHEN the allocation/deallocation occurs, as is object life-time (unlike Java and its ilk).

The fact that you are talking about memory allocators shows that you may be thinking about this problem on a much to high level.

It is very common for some of the problems involving real-time embedded systems to require "creative" low-level uses of the C compiler, that would scar high-level programmers for life. Low-level code is where you operate with maxims like:

"If you call malloc(), your code is broken (too slow.)"
"If you use strings, your code is broken (too slow.)"
"Use a code generator, array lookups don't work."
"Your fired. You called new() inside an interrupt handler."

For a high-level programmer, the concept of writing code without using indirection is a foreign concept. Indirection is vital to advanced programming techniques, including malloc, _vtables, arrays, strings, and linked lists! However, on certain embedded architectures, significant speed gains result from having deterministic memory accesses. If it takes writing code without access to malloc, _vtables, arrays, strings, etc., then that is what you do to get the system working and shipped. Some of embedded code needs to execute without an operating system, or before the operating system loads, and sometimes before the "stack" is set up. "Heaps", in certain embedded applications, you wish such a thing existed ...

Re:Capitalism will find a way

[dunkelfalke]

Well, Germany was much more socialist in early nineties. And the standard of living was also quite higher than now, after a lot of American-style capitalist reforms.

Re:Depends on specialization and responsibilities

[Drethon]

Pretty much correct there. I graduated with a Computer Engineering degree instead of a Computer Science degree so instead of developing web apps (which unfortunately high school drop outs can do even if they probably wont do it quite right) I started developing embedded avionics software starting at 55k.

If you're in it for the money, do something else

[PolygamousRanchKid]

I had a co-op student once, who obviously had no affinity for programming . . . or, more to the point, no affinity for computers in general. (This was back in the 80's, before PCs were as pervasive as now).

I really couldn't understand why he was torturing himself with a degree program, which he didn't like, so I asked him why he chose computer science. The answer:

"I heard that I will be able to make a lot of money in this field."

Money is not the reason to choose computer programming as a career.

Or any other career for that matter . . . do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon, who is, "in it for the money . . . ?"

Supply and demand, welcome to capitalism

[davidwr]

Anyone with eyes to see knew the relatively high pay of the last century couldn't last in the face of easy off-shoring and other factors.

We should be thankful for what we had, not complaining about more rational (from a capitalistic perspective) compensation.

On the flip side, most people who make okay-or-better programmers have the brains and basic skills to do a variety of careers with maybe a year or two or less of additional training, and most of us hopefully know it's not wise to put all your career eggs in one basket.

Also, some jobs such as most of those in the defense industry will remain in-country.

So, yes, there may be fewer newly-minted programmers in the Western world in the future, fewer domestic jobs available, and lower pay for the remaining jobs, but it won't be the total disaster it was for say, the steel or textile industries.

From an overall global economic health perspective, I see this as a good thing, even if it hurts me personally and Western economies in general.

Salary

[Herkum01]

I have been principally been a Perl Programmer so that is the market I know, but the salaries I looked at have been all over the place with a good bit of it depending on location.

Recently I was looking at Sr Developer positions in LA, NYC, Nashville, and Austin.

• The company in Austin, TX was willing to pay relocation and $90/K (top level). They went with someone local due to because they wanted to hire quick.
• I looked at two jobs in LA seriously, neither was really willing to go over $90/K with a third company willing to go as high as $110/K but only for a elite guy.
• I looked but not hard in NYC, and their salary ranges were from $80/K to $120/K. One company I wanted to interview wanted only to pay $90/K but could not even bother to pick me up from the airport. F*ck that!
• I interviewed in Nashville, the highest they were willing to go was $80/K. We just did not click.

Now I technically have 10+ years of programming experience. If I stayed one place as a programmer (theoretically speaking) I might have gotten to an architect level position and earned 150K. Or you some Chinese super guru out of school, some companies will throw money at you, but that is a rarity.

I had also seen positions where companies wanted you telecommute for 10/hour because they thought that was what they could get from some guy in Russia or India.

Basically, if you become a programmer, you are going to be treated as skilled labor. Skilled but still labor and they will never be interested in paying you more because they will have no way of determining if you are good at your job. At that point, you will need to job boat to get a real raise. Then you need to know how large the market is for a particular technology in your area, otherwise you will end up moving all over the place.

Re:No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Pos

[cerberusss]

Hello there!
Please refer to your opening on job posting site. I, Rajesh Sharma, would like to apply for the job.[...]My hourly rates are $ 9 USD.

We all like to pretend this isn't here and it isn't happening, but I would say conservatively half the job market has disappeared in 10 years due to this currency/standard of living imbalance.

There's another reality: it's really, really hard to manage projects in India. I have tried this for a number of projects, and have learned the following things:

• A day before the deadline, Rajesh will ask for more time
• Halfway through the project, Rajesh will ask for more money
• Rajesh will not give the source, as was agreed
• Rajesh will not use unit tests, or Subversion, as was agreed
• Rajesh cannot be bothered to provide an estimate or a planning
• Rajesh will take on other projects and give priority to those before yours
• Rajesh actually has a day job and just does projects on the side
• Rajesh will tell you he takes a holiday for three weeks, starting tomorrow
• Rajesh has a wedding of a brother, a pregnant sister, a sick father, etc and cannot make the planning
• Rajesh will ask for more money at the end of the project
• Rajesh cannot be reached because he lost his mobile
• Rajesh cannot be reached because his mobile was stolen
• Rajesh cannot be reached because his mobile its battery is empty
• Rajesh cannot be reached because the e-mail server is down
• Rajesh cannot be reached because the internet is down

Each and every project, I have had the above things. There are lots of ways around the above, but the main thing is that it's very hard.

Re:I don't have a degree...

[Angst Badger]

I don't have a degree (in this field, anyway), either, and my income is currently $100k/yr, though I've spent most of the last five years working as an independent contractor, so it can vary quite a bit -- it's usually closer to $60k, so I feel pretty lucky considering the state of the economy right now. All that said, it took me fifteen years to get to this level. My observation of my coworkers is that the degree buys you almost nothing at the outset, but it will let you advance faster. Of course, how much faster will depend on what you actually learned in school, how fast you learn on the job, and particularly on your social skills. I've supervised people far more skilled than I am -- and I'm no slouch -- but who couldn't play the office political game, and I've been supervised by total morons whose lack of constructive skills was more than balanced by their skill at kissing their superiors' asses and taking credit for the work done by the people below them.

The degree helps, but it's not the be-all and end-all that dewy-eyed college kids would like to think it is. The big shock that everyone entering the real world has to adjust to is this: it's not remotely meritocratic. A degree, both as a simple credential and as the knowledge that (sometimes) goes with it, is one tool among many, and it's not necessarily the most important one.

I'll say this, though: I wish I'd gotten the degree. There is no such thing as a free lunch, and the work you don't do in school will have to be done on the job, where the stress and stakes are higher, and it will almost certainly take longer to fill in all of the gaps in your knowledge.

Of course, if I had it to do over, I wouldn't be in this field at all. The same things that interested me about computing in the 80's are still around, but I haven't spent the last fifteen years working on AI, VR, or even games: I've spent it building web apps, billing software, and other mind-numbingly boring crap. Once I've got the kid through college, I think I'm going to go do something else. As the main thread notes, there's not even any prestige left to the field. When I was a kid, computers and programmers were exotic, mysterious things. Now, computers are ubiquitous, and programmers are thought of by non-programmers as digital janitors.

Re:No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Pos

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't be surprised since USD9/hour is a fair bit in my country.

Analyst Programmer monthly salariesin Malaysia

According to Google: 1 Malaysian ringgit (RM) = 0.292184 U.S. dollars

So at the higher end, RM4500/month * 12 = USD15777 a year, or about USD7/hour. The low end is naturally even lower...

For some strange reason[1] a company I used to work for outsourced some work to India. When the Indian workers came over and we compared salaries, they were paid more than the average Malaysian programmer in our company, and while we weren't very good, most of the Indian team made us look good in comparison, one or two of them had some clue (they were paid quite a lot in comparison), but the rest were like the sort of programmers who would be responsible for the notorious Excel bug (where 77.1*850=100000).

FWIW, RM5-6 buys you a decent lunch, you can rent a room for about RM250-500/month and taxes at the RM4500/month level aren't that high.

A lot of people in "the West" are unaware of the huge differences in cost of living. Wages are really low elsewhere. So when you see people say "it must be child labour", it's often bullshit, or someone misinterpreting a picture/video ( just because a bunch of oriental/asian workers are petite doesn't mean they are children - my cousin is 40+, she lives in New York and she has to buy some of her clothes in the children's section).

[1] Apparently the company had money stuck in some country (not India), so they decided to use it by outsourcing work to a company that then outsources it to India... Can't remember how many layers there were. Something like that anyway. I was wise enough not to say in one of the first meetings - "why don't we just buy a whole load of merchandise, ship it to where you want the money to be and sell it, you'd lose less that way", go figure why ;)...

Re:No, it's $9 - Actual Reply to US Craigslist Pos

[elnyka]

Not that I disagree entirely that it may be more difficult to manage someone in India, and I've certainly heard horror stories, but come on. These could all be applied to just about any remote contractor who isn't worth their salt. I have worked with/currently work with plenty of Indians who really knew/know their stuff.

I gotta side with cerberuss on this one. Yes, c'mon all of those can be applied to any remote consultant that is not worth his salt. However, from my experience working with remote teams (India, Brazil, within the US), there is something specific about the consulting industry in India that can really bit you in the ass harder than in other cases.

Now, just like you, I've worked with plenty of Indians who really knew their stuff. In fact, most of the remote projects I've worked that involved teams in India have had a high success ratio. But the few that have failed have done so far more miserably and catastrophically than with other teams on other countries.

This has given me a glimpse to a darker side of Indian offshore consulting, which I've actually talked a lot with several of my Indian colleagues who also agree on this: you can end up with a consulting firm that sells the idea of development guided by a a top-notch architect, and you swallow the tripe. And then the top-notch architect designs a system which looks solid, then he moves to another project. Then the consulting firm gets a whole bunch of sophomore kids from college find ways to replicate GOTO statements in Java to do the implementation. My first encounter with such practices from such a consulting team was when I was working together with an Indian colleague of mine (a really good software developer) in trying to make sense out of the mess. When we looked at the code and the original design, all we could do was say "WTF?".

That's an experience I've had to repeat several times. It's a reality, and it has nothing to do with dissing people from X or Y country. It's an unfortunate reality that cannot be denied or politically correctly sugar coat it.

Re:There is gold rush top do that.

[Catbeller]

Everything can be commoditized. Even you.

We cannot compete with an overpopulated world. The relative few of you that can pipe in with well-paying jobs are a dying breed. The pattern will repeat. Yet you still believe in open markets that have killed 90%+ of the rest of the country, on the chance that you will be the special exceptions.