Toyota Pedal Issue Highlights Move To Electronics

cyclocommuter writes with an excerpt from a brief WSJ story on increasing electronic control of car components: "The gas pedal system used Toyota Motor Co.'s recall crisis was born from a movement in the auto industry to rely more on electronics to carry out a vehicle's most critical functions. The intricacy of such systems, which replace hoses and hydraulic fluid with computer chips and electrical sensors, has been a focus as Toyota struggled to find the cause for sudden acceleration of vehicles that led the company to halt sales of eight models this week."

Comments

Safety Critical

[Renraku]

At least in one case, the brakes failed, the accelerator stuck, and the person didn't know how to turn the car off because it was a rental and used a push-button ignition. Also, they couldn't put it into neutral because it had a push-button shifter as well. People really should learn about the car before they drive it, but this is a monumental fuck-up on the part of Toyota. I think that we can do the push-button stuff CORRECTLY, but this isn't the way to do it.

Re:Safety Critical

[maxwell demon]

Well, maybe all-electronic cars should be required to have a highly visible button labelled "Emergency Off" - I think I don't have to explain what this should (and shouldn't!) do.

Re:Safety Critical

[Third Position]

Well, I'm not sure this incident accurately represents the situation. On balance, the electronic components are safer than the mechanical ones. Electronic components can be automatically monitored and compensated for much more easily than mechanical ones. Sure, this incident isn't good, but one of the reasons it stands out is that safety issues caused by deficient electronic component failures are so rare. On balance, accidents caused by component failure in modern cars are rarer than they've ever been.

Re:Safety Critical

[Anonymous Coward]

the person didn't know how to turn the car off because it was a rental and used a push-button ignition

The problem with any tech is that it's nearly impossible to make it perfect. In some situations like airbags, you can make the system very simple and independent, so it's not prone to failure. But when there are scenarios that result in death, you need to be able to *shut it down* very quickly. In a car, that means literally turning the engine off.

If you can't do that in the car in question, that's insane. If it's not obvious to do so, it only highlights the life-or-death importance of good interface design, which on most cars seems to be outrageously awful. You should not reasonably have to open a manual to change the fucking clock.

Re:Safety Critical

[Concerned Onlooker]

I'm sure push button transmissions could be done correctly. The problem isn't with the tech, the problem is with standardization. The way things are now is that you can get into just about any car and the shifting will be very, very similar. When you are under pressure you will react the way you've done things the previous thousand times, so having transmission shifters standardized is a kind of safety feature. It would be a big shift (heh) to get everybody to be used to a new way of doing this very basic thing. Would it be worth it?

Re:Safety Critical

[Shadow of Eternity]

Or maybe we should recognize that multi-ton incendiary missiles capable of travelling at a hundred miles per hour on a level surface should be required to have at least 3 manual systems: Shifting, braking, and emergency shutoff.

Re:Safety Critical

[rubycodez]

citation needed. I'd say the opposite, huge number of replaced PCM modules and sensors show electronics are short lived, needlessly complex solutions offered in lieu of time tested mechanical and hydraulic ones. For example, guess what can happen if O2 sensor in exhaust system is faulty, car can drop rpm to idle then rev high in ten second pulses, very dangerous on highway. Happened to me, found myself in 4000 lbs. bucking steel bronco. Computer should not have so much control over throttle, just a small amount of mixture and timing adjustment, not complete potentially deadly control.

Re:Safety Critical

[ctmurray]

On Toyota's with this button you have to hold it down for 3 seconds before it turns off the car. In fact the long time hold has been criticized in relation to these accidents. Since you only have to touch to turn on, when you want to turn off in an emergency you also just poke at the button and nothing happens. In the panic of the moment you don't even consider trying again and holding down for a longer time.

Re:Safety Critical

[Amouth]

I'd have to say your references to "stuck" or "fraying" cables is heavily due to cost cutting - I've never seen one get stuck on older cars. - I've seen them fray and fail but in each case the linkage was designed so it drops the motor to idle. yes i don't have anything to reference on this other than the years of working with them - the traditional accelerator cable is a bicycle cable - something that can fail yes - something that should be checked yes - something that fails in design to justify a recall?? no - unless they are built wrong.

Re:Safety Critical

[jbengt]

My gas pedal has stuck as I was coming up to a red light, and it was very hard to stop. I attributed it to the snow on the ground, until it happened again at the next light and I noticed the engine was still revving. I almost crashed until I realized what was happening and put the car into neutral. (unfortunately, I overshot and put the car into park momentarily, which resulted in a slow leak of my transmission fluid that cost about $600 to fix).
Anyway, in my experience, braking is problematic at best in competition with the accelerator. The brake might be enough to hold the car in place while revving the engine at a stop, but I doubt you could make a reasonable controlled stop at full throttle while at speed. (Your results may vary depending on your transmission, brakes, and engine)

Re: Shifting, braking, and emergency shutoff

[snikulin]

'kill -9 engine' is not enough.
you forgot about kinetic energy (0.5 * m*v^2).
One might try 'kill -9 -1' but I wonder what will happen with the Universe.
Man pages are somewhat ambiguous about its effect.

Re:As a Chrysler owner I don't understand

[Anonymous Coward]

Before you go bashing the intelligence of the driver you should be aware of some issues.

First, the car was a rental so the driver wasn't familiar with some non-standard features of the car.

Second, the car did not have the standard key ignition switch. It has a push button on the dash that turns the engine on or off. But more importantly, when in motion the operation of the button changes. When stopped, you simply press the button and the engine turns off. But when in motion, you must hold the button down continuously for three seconds in order to turn off the engine. Presumably this is to prevent turning off the engine accidentally while driving. This three-second delay doesn't normally occur so only someone who has read the 200 page manual would know that. I imagine that in a panic situation you would press the button two or three times and then give up.

Third, the automatic transmission has a sport shifter feature. You can move the shifter in a position through a gate so that when you press forward the transmission up-shifts and when you press backward it downshifts. You cannot directly push the shifter into neutral. You have to move the shifter sideways and then up several notches to get to neutral. In an unfamiliar car and a panic situation you would try to push the shifter into neutral like most cars. Instead pushing it forward would just up-shift to a higher gear. In a panic situation, going 120 mph, it might be difficult to figure out how this non-standard transmission works -- that you have to move the shifter sideways through a gate to get to neutral.

Re:Don't bash Electronics for Mechanical Failures

[BitZtream]

You didn't do much research. Toyota has been having this problem for several years now, its been in the news several times, it has not been fixed, and they keep coming up with new excuses for the problem.

They don't know, or don't want to admit to it.

Either way, you're an idiot for trusting them to tell you its safe to drive your car. It doesn't matter how rare it is, its JUST as likely to happen to you as it is every owner. They haven't told the truth or have had no clue what the problem is for several years. Trusting them is about as intelligent as trusting a politician at this point.