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US Unable To Win a Cyber War

An anonymous reader writes "The inability to deflect even a simulated cyber attack or mitigate its effects shown in an exercise that took place some six days ago at Washington's Mandarin Oriental Hotel doesn't bode well for the US. Mike McConnell, the former Director of National Intelligence, said to the US Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation Committee yesterday that if the US got involved in a cyber war at this moment, they would surely lose. 'We're the most vulnerable. We're the most connected. We have the most to lose,' he stated. Three years ago, McConnell referred to cybersecurity as the 'soft underbelly of this country' and it's clear that he thinks things haven't changed much since then."

34 of 327 comments (clear)

  1. Stupidity of leadership... by LostCluster · · Score: 4, Informative

    If you watched the broadcast of this exercise on CNN, you heard many people arguing for things that the government just can't do such as ordering telcos to disable all smartphones, suspending rights, and even nationalizing the power companies.

    They spent so much time being told by the simulated AG what they couldn't do, they didn't have time left to discuss what they could do.

    1. Re:Stupidity of leadership... by MozeeToby · · Score: 4, Interesting

      What they don't understand is that it isn't going to be the government or the military that responds to a real cyber attack, it's going to be a nation wide army of several hundred thousand IT admins working 70 hour weeks to keep their companies secure and operational. Once solutions are found they'll be posted to the web and disseminated faster than the new attacks can be devised. In short, cyberwarfare won't work for the exact same reasons that censorship won't work, there's too many people working against the attackers who can communicate too quickly and too effectively.

      Or, to put it another way, http://xkcd.com/705

    2. Re:Stupidity of leadership... by toastar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Who would we be at war with? And what would it look like? I already block Large blocks of IPs from china/russia.

      Actually this is a better example http://xkcd.com/538/

      just imagine in the left panel it's the goverment imagining needing all these 4 amendment violations and the right one is a sysadmin pulling out network cable from the router that connects the supposed country we would be at cyberwar with.

    3. Re:Stupidity of leadership... by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In short, cyberwarfare won't work for the exact same reasons that censorship won't work, there's too many people working against the attackers who can communicate too quickly and too effectively.

      Quiet, you fool! Imagine if they can convince the United States government that part of its defense budget should go to increasing cyber security! We already know the DoD uses Linux and wants more. Just think what a very tiny fraction of the US Defense budget could do for security in Linux and its subsequent adoption for corporations!

      And for those of you that argue the enemy will then use Linux: who cares? Bullet proof protection on both sides would prevent any attempt of an offensive from ever sparking a war. In light of recent economic ups and downs, I would argue at this point it's more important to make the corporations feel 100% safe and secure -- unlike Google in China.

      --
      My work here is dung.
    4. Re:Stupidity of leadership... by pv2b · · Score: 3, Informative

      Except it probably won't be as simple as lots of evil malicious traffic originating from... say... the hypothetical Peoples Republic of Anich.

      And then you can just block all of Anich and you won't be under attack any more.

      The traffic of such a cyberattack could conceivably originate from all over the world, including from your own country - originating from compromised personal computers with fast broadband connections. Or even from the very modems or Internet sharing devices that connect their homes to the Internet.

      All you'd have to do, from that point on, is to have some way to send command and control traffic to the botnet inside the borders of the country you're trying to attack. And even that traffic could conceivably be hosted by some country neutral in the conflict.

    5. Re:Stupidity of leadership... by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You fail to realize that it is not "one network cable" that connects us to (lets say China). The robustness of the internet means that every route to China must be cut in order to stop the attack.

      That means England has to cut their ties with China. And France. And so on and so forth until everyone that North America Can access no longer has access to China. If we leave the pipes open to India, and India is still open to China, thats a route through to the US. Thus we resort to IP Blocking, but then spoofing and Proxies comes into play - making things more complex.

      The other solution to stop the attack, is to disconnect all the network cables that access any other country. Leaving you with an internet that spans North America Alone.

      Personally, if it ever comes to a cyber war, I think it will boil down into a World War kind of thing. One side will cut ties and allegiances will be made. The West will be on their own private network and the rest of the world on theirs, creating two out of sync "Internets".

    6. Re:Stupidity of leadership... by HungryHobo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why would any of that happen???
      The internet is essentially millions of walled and gated communities.
      Everything that any hypothetical attacker could try is already being done by the legions of script kiddies right through to highly paid top notch programmers working for organised criminal groups.

      If any hypothetical attacker from china or *scary place* wanted to launch a DDoS attack why would they write anything of their own when they can just pay for bandwidth from one of the big botnet herders?
      Government entities hardly have a monopoly on hackers.

      A million Sys admins the world over already deal with these problems every single day of the year.

    7. Re:Stupidity of leadership... by HungryHobo · · Score: 3, Informative

      read:
      http://webtorque.org/wp-content/uploads/malware_biz.pdf

      The organised malware business is already leagues ahead of anything script kiddies use.
      it's embraced outsourcing.
      The people writing viruses these days are professionals.
      They're not doing it for the lulz like when we were kids, it's cold hard business.
      They teenagers who used to write viruses which turned your mouse into a penis have grown up and now they're not going to do anything unless there's cash in it for them.
      The rootkits that are out there are already more advanced than the rootkit detectors and even the best AV programs have perhaps a 20% hit rate. (not miss rate)

      They already have countermeasures ready for security measures that we haven't even deployed yet

    8. Re:Stupidity of leadership... by Dalambertian · · Score: 3, Informative

      Agreed. The biggest threat to national security is probably windows XP. Here's an idea: let's start teaching high school students something other than Word and Excel, hmm?

    9. Re:Stupidity of leadership... by mcgrew · · Score: 4, Interesting

      even nationalizing the power companies.

      I'm all for that, cyberwar or no. Maybe not have the power companies run by the US government, but by local or county governments. My gas company Amerin is a private utility that is a power company as well in most of the state, my electric comppany is CWLP, owned and operated by the city. The difference between these two utilities is astounding.

      CWLP has excellent customer service, the lowest rates and the highest uptime of any electric utility in the state, and makes a tidy profit for the city as well, offsetting taxes that would otherwise have to be paid. My gas company, otoh, makes Comcast look good. The reason is simple: if CWLP's customer service goes bad, if the power is out much, or if the rates go up too much the Mayor loses his job.

      Amerin's customer service is abysmal, but what is one to do? Many local folks have gone all-electric because of their shodddiness. There isn't even a local office to pay the bill, you have to snail mail it or go to a currency exchange and pay an extra dollar. It's not like you can go to the other gas company down the street, and propane is out of the question. Because of this, they are not beholden to anyone but the stockholders.

      The free market works well when there is a free market, but there is no free market when it comes to utilities or any other natural monopoly. I'd like to see all utilities taken over by local or county governments. The customer has at least some say then.

  2. 3rd World War by Krneki · · Score: 3, Funny

    a.k.a. All your base are belong to us.

    --
    Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
  3. Let me guess the solution: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    More government intervention and monitoring of the Internet, to be outsourced to 3rd party vendors which are politically connected?

    Nah, couldn't happen.

  4. Im in ur internetz fraggin ur servers by calibre-not-output · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Given the completely ignorant approach the Legislative and Judiciary powers in the United States of Jeebus have taken to the Internet, I am not surprised that the Executive power is also doing it wrong.

    --
    Nothing lasts forever but the certainty of change.
  5. Propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Pretext to OpenID and government surveillance.

  6. all this proves by gearloos · · Score: 4, Insightful

    All this proves is that the moronic politcal machine has no idea how to conduct real world I.T. tests

    --
    "Computers are a lot like Air Conditioners" "They both work great until you start opening Windows"
  7. Why is infrastructure connected? by pauljlucas · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Why are things like power plants, banks, or telcos directly connected to the internet? You'd think they could afford a completely separate network.

    --
    If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
    1. Re:Why is infrastructure connected? by vlm · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Why are things like power plants, banks, or telcos directly connected to the internet? You'd think they could afford a completely separate network.

      A short summary of the problem:

      Obviously no one manipulates the reactor control rods over the internet, outsourced to India. Although there is probably an intense desire by the MBAs to do so. Obviously the marketing guys have their PR website on the internet.

      The problem is the devices in between. At a past employer, they had a customer whom had to cancel aircraft flights when their net access was down. They had to submit some form or list to the FAA or DHS or big brother or whatever for each flight, and they had a backup plan to submit the info over telephones/cellphones, but not the personnel to handle the load of all flights on backup, so the least essential flight would be canceled. Sales gave them an elaborate SLA.

      That is how you shut down a nuclear plant using the internet. They can't email incident reports to the N.R.C., so they have to shut down for "safeties sake". Its not that its technically dangerous, but intentionally operating without N.R.C. oversight might be a $10M/hour fine, so they aren't gonna do it. Or maybe the plant guards won't get paid unless their internet accessible timeclock application works, they won't work for free, and the plant is not allowed to work without guards. Or the VOIP customer service in India is inaccessible and for safety reasons you can't supply power with no way to learn of lines down in the street and/or dispatch the service techs, so off goes the power to the city. To save money, city water SCADA system is now on the internet instead of a private net, and when the inet goes down, no water, no water means the plant shuts off. Thats how you use the internet to shut off a nuclear power plant, not some B.S. about remotely adjusting the control rods and turning pumps on and off.

      What was almost certainly not discussed during the govt simulation was the need to remove useless regulations, because that gets the proletariat wondering if those regulations are really required under normal circumstances...

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    2. Re:Why is infrastructure connected? by LostCluster · · Score: 4, Informative

      In this simulations, they weren't. The public cell phone network had a widespread trojan, which went on to attack the public Internet. With phones and data down, they weren't able to respond to simple bomb attacks on a few power locations, and the power grid collapsed.

      The threat to the power grid wasn't that that it was cyber attacked, but that a conventional attack was much more powerful when there was no way to direct the repair people. With no way to direct truck drivers or send orders, there was no way to get gas to critical things like hospital and police to run generators.

      The team lost the wargame, and was punished by having to be interviewed by Wolf Blitzer.

  8. Computer unable to defeat Nuke by vvaduva · · Score: 4, Funny

    The headline should really read: "Overseas hacker's computers unable to defeat incoming U.S. nukes."

    That would be much more accurate, if we are going to talk about WAR.

  9. Bunch of BS by elrous0 · · Score: 4, Informative

    That "excercise" was conducted by a bunch of former Bush officials and other neocons. It wasn't a test of our cyber security, it was a propaganda tool designed to embarass the Obama administration and urge a further erosion of our civil liberties.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  10. Re:Stupidity of leadership..or quite the contrary? by sznupi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I wonder how much of this new fear has to do with revving up support for ACTA/etc.

    --
    One that hath name thou can not otter
  11. We have BOFH by wsanders · · Score: 4, Funny

    We are BOFH. You want Mutual Assured Destruction? We make the USAF look like wusses.

    --
    Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
  12. Always remember this in a cyber war by Tetsujin · · Score: 5, Funny

    If you're captured by the enemy, there are just three pieces of information you are compelled to divulge: Age, Sex, and Location.

    --
    Bow-ties are cool.
  13. A comment in The Atlantic on cluelessness by Animats · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I wrote this to The Atlantic, which is a "think piece" magazine read by some decision makers in Washington.

    After seeing that show, I was struck by the cluelessness of the panelists. I don't expect them to understand how networks really work, but they didn't even understand the organizations involved. Key organizations in a crisis like that would be the North American Network Operators Group and the North American Electric Reliability Council, along with the US Computer Emergency Response Team. The participants didn't know that, and they didn't have staffers to tell them.

    The panelists were obsessing over whether they had enough authority to do something, while totally lacking any idea of what to do.

    There are a few reasonable steps they could have taken at their level.

    • First, after a physical attack on electric power facilities, get troops guarding key substations. The NERC would know where those are, and there should be a plan in place to do that.
    • Second, faced with an massive attack via "smart phones", ask network operators to temporarily disable 4G and 3G services while keeping voice up. That would cut traffic 90% and stop further infections. Cellular voice service would probably come back up.
    • Third, ask ISPs to temporarily block all HTML/MIME email, while allowing text email. That would stop most attacks against PCs and virus transmission. Yes, the FCC lacks the authority to order this. But if CERT and NANOG simply asked network operators to do that in an emergency, 99% would do it.
    • Fourth, activate the Emergency Broadcasting System, which uses AM radio, for a Presidential address. That will get through even if almost everything else is down.
    • Fifth, get FEMA cranked up to provide emergency services in areas with power outages. That's where people are going to die. Everything else is an economic problem.

    Having taken the initial steps, the next priority is bringing the electrical grid back up. If substations were damaged, it may be necessary to move some very large transformers around, and possibly to import them from other countries. Military assets (i.e. big transport aircraft) should be made available to help with that.

    In parallel with this, the intelligence community and DoD can work on who's behind the attack. But that's not going to be dealt with in the first hours. Don't obsess on hitting back.

    1. Re:A comment in The Atlantic on cluelessness by FriendlyLurker · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The panelists were obsessing over whether they had enough authority to do something

      "obsessing over whether they had enough authority" was no mistake - it was the whole point of this test from the very beginning. We can already see that "lack of authority" and recommending new powers be granted to the president is the main focus being driven home in the aftermath of this exercise in propaganda. The real aim of course being to garner support for enacting laws giving enough authority to do "something" about this problem of people communicating over the internet. The people behind this test are not stupid or clueless, they merely know which fear buttons to press in order to get what they want.

    2. Re:A comment in The Atlantic on cluelessness by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yes, the real responders will be CERT and NANOG. I'd be willing to bet that some fair percentage of the people with their hands on the keyboards in NANOG would be able to fire up their HAM sets if the backbones got so totally overwhelmed that nothing could get through. I KNOW they don't care if their fucking cell phones don't work. They have desks with three screens and a keyboard and a hardwired phone on them. What happens to their daughters' iPhones in no way interferes with their jobs.

      But I have a hard time imagining any purely digital situation that would take down the backbones. Script kiddies have been running DDOS botnets for a decade now. The backbones have seen it all, done it all, and when you get right down to it, the trans-Atlantic and trans-Pacific links aren't big enough to saturate the continental backbone. We have a LOT more fiber in the ground than we do underwater.

      The only situation that could take down the backbone is an extended, multi-state power outage, and guess what: we've been there and done that. The northeast power outage was our worst case scenario made manifest. Those of us in the Midwest knew about it, but barely even noticed it in our day to day lives. Our grid stayed up, our phones still worked, and business went on as usual for most of us. Those who needed to talk to eastern seaboard customers/employers/whatever had a quiet few days, that's all.

      Sure, it looked like the participants were clueless. And I know the old saw about never attributing to malice what can be explained by incompetence. But I've seen the names of the participants, and I know for an absolute fact that malignance is one of their primary motivations. They seek power, at all costs, and they will do anything to get it, including lie, cheat, steal, and manipulate anything and everything they can affect. I think they do have the staffers who can tell them about NANOG and CERT and NERC and they don't like the fact that those organizations exist without their explicit control over everything they do.

      They want the authority, in law, to order NANOG around, on any pretext. They want the authority, in law, to disband CERT if they feel like it. They want to exert the full force of the US Government to make all these 'maverick' network operators stand and salute when they say so, or lose their jobs. They've heard how the Internet views censorship as damage and routes around it and they want control of the people who control the routers. They want the power and they want the money, and they're going to do their damndest to stampede their herd of useful idiots into giving it all to them. They are sociopaths and psychotics and we can only hope they die of old age before the country falls headlong into a French Revolution of purges, pogroms, and random bloodletting.

    3. Re:A comment in The Atlantic on cluelessness by Lousifer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They are sociopaths and psychotics and we can only hope they die of old age before the country falls headlong into a French Revolution of purges, pogroms, and random bloodletting.

      What makes you think their children will be any different? There has been a trend for the ruling class in the US to function equivalently to royalty (Bush I & II, Clintons, Kennedys). I don't see why the next generation of sociopaths will be any better than the current batch.

  14. Goes without saying... by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The US has been and will be stuck back in WWII thinking until it's too late. When you invest in war ships, tanks and fighter planes you have something "show" people. It's pretty hard to demonstrate what you got for the money when it comes to the security of intangible things. The installation of a firewall just doesn't make one go "oooh and ahhh" like the vaporized city and mushroom cloud from a 10 mega-ton ICBM. Even a security fence and a camera or two around a municipal water supply isn't very "impressive" compared to the demonstration of raw power an F-22 can unleash.

    Worse still is when people do play "tickle-tickle" with our soft underbelly the response tends to be blowing up FedEx packages, taking off our shoes, having dogs sniff our crotch, and groping pregnant ladies.

    --
    Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    1. Re:Goes without saying... by thedonger · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You are exactly correct: We'll never win a Cyber War unless we build a big, shiny Robot Army.

      --
      Help fight poverty: Punch a poor person.
  15. Change the system... by thestudio_bob · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Unfortunately for the U.S., the problem started decades ago. The downfall began when the corporations convinced politicians to make stronger and stronger laws to punish those who hack their system or product. This led to the idea that instead of fixing any security issues, it was easier and cheaper to try to punish those who hacked. Fast forward to today, and now theres the more laws, EUA's, DMCA's, etc.

    If you discover exploits and try to go public with it. The first thing the targeted company might try to do to squash the "exploit" is either litigate or file criminal charges.

    I'm not saying that there shouldn't be laws against hacking into systems, but the current environment doesn't bode well for making these system any more secure. It would be nice if there was some kind of "whistle blower" protection for those who discover exploits and maybe a company or government agency that you could disclose these exploits to in order to receive this protection.

    Maybe there could be laws inacted that require a company to fix the exploit within a certain amount of time once it has been reported or something. If not they could either be fined or held accountable if any sensitive data is breached. Not sure, but something needs to be changed.

    --
    The real Sig captains the Northwestern. This one captains /.
  16. The ultimate cyberwar weapon by gmuslera · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... is social engineering. No firewall can isolate you from human stupidity, and more accessible information about everything (that either is public, or can be obtained thru directed trojans/botnets) gives good base for such kind of approach.

  17. A cyberwar will be used as a lead up to an attack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    A "Cyberwar" will be used as part of a campaign for a larger objective. When (not if) China chooses to "annex" Taiwan, the attack would likely go as follows:

    US power plants go down because of SCADA systems attached available to anyone who finds them. Other embedded systems will get torn apart, from HVAC systems to traffic light control, paralyzing cities. This will happen all at once, both on CONUS, but on ports the US uses abroad, and in Taiwan as well. As a farewell gift, routers and such are zapped of all configuration to make it harder to reconnect and get infrastructure working, especially core wireless items, such as the infrastructure between towers. Even worse, most companies and organizations have no backup infrastructure in place so a simple dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda will cause permanent data loss. Or random corruption is done to archive records, making them unusable for criminal or civil proceedings down the line.

    By the time the mess is cleaned up (and with embedded systems, there *will* be physical damage, such as safety valves jammed shut, causing BLEVEs), the Red Guard will have firmly garrisoned the island nation and will be telling the US that an attack there will result in a nuclear exchange.

    Another possibility will be an attack against the Falkland Islands by Argentina. As of recently, that nation has been wanting to take British oil interests in the area, even trying to attack oil rigs. One can expect the UK to be hit by a coordinated attack on critical systems, as well as its allies. Then the next thing would be Argentina with help from Chavez (who is in dire need of a military victory against Europe and the US to bolster his credibility) will be invading the Falkland Islands. No, the islands may not be a major strategic issue, but they have a lot of oil underneath, and would love to attack the UK's oil interests and turn the oil derricks into torches.

    Of course, there is Russia. America's grid goes down, and Russia pushes into Western interests without a shot being fired. Since most of Europe went "green" and ditched their national security for reliance on Russian gas, expect no help from France or Germany, as neither country wants its population to freeze to death, and both countries like their cities to have their lights on. It wouldn't even take a cyberattack to make Europe kowtow to Russia... just the threat of turning off the natural gas pipes.

    Of course, the Middle East comes to mind. The one oil pipeline that Russia hasn't seized yet that goes through Georgia. Georgian computers go down, American grid suffers, Russian tanks plow into Georgia proper calling it a police action, depose the government and set up a puppet system. Combine that with a military action to grab control of the Persian Gulf, and Russia now has complete control of Europe's and America's oil supplies. Game. Point. Match. Checkmate.

    The problem? A good number of American companies don't give a shit about security. Since security has no ROI, little but lip service is paid in that direction. They expect that they can hire an army of consultants to repair any breach 24/7, so don't do anything except put some random policies in place. Of course, come a military strike against American interests, these companies will be having their systems used as staging points and proxies to make it virtually impossible to find out who disabled a cooling system at a nuke plant, causing a SCRAM across all reactors and plunging the grid into a blackout.

    When a "cyber attack" that is worth the name happens, the lights will go off, then the ships will sail into some country's harbor, and the troops will be moving in. It won't be done just for giggles by some foreign nation, it will be done in concert with another brutal offensive.

  18. Re:cyberwar = bullshit by captainClassLoader · · Score: 3, Informative

    dont buy this cyberwar bullshit. they are just using it as an excuse to justify internet control schemes they want to bring upon you americans. remember how terrorism was used to bring liberties-infringing 'security' measures in all aspects of life. its the same shit, repeating itself.

    do NOT buy it.

    From an article about the "mock cyber attack":

    "...A bevy of former top US officials were given various roles to play:

    • John Negroponte, the former Director of National Intelligence, as the Secretary of State
    • Michael Chertoff, the ex DHS Secretary, as the National Security Adviser
    • Fran Townsend, former White House Homeland Security Advisor, as the Secretary of DHS
    • John McLaughlin, ex CIA deputy director, as the Director of National Intelligence
    • Jamie Gorelick, former deputy attorney general, as attorney general
    • Charles Wald, retired Air Force general, as the Secretary of Defense
    • Stephen Friedman, former director of the National Economic Council, as the Treasury Secretary.

    The entire scenario was thought up by Michael Hayden, the former CIA Director, and the faux attack began with malware masquerading as a free March Madness application for smartphones...."

    Not only the same shit, but the same shit doled out by the same people.

    --
    "The plural of anecdote is not data" -- Bruce Schneier
  19. Re:Last 9 years was WASTED by TheSync · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Between government regulations and the unions you aren't going to have an opportunity to bring back manufacturing to the US.

    The misunderstanding is that manufacturing ever "left" the US.

    US manufacturing output reached an all-time-high of $1.6 trillion in 2007, nearly double the $811 billion in 1987.

    It is true that US manufacturing jobs are on the decline, but not because we are not manufacturing, but because manufacturing productivity is rising. More machines/robots are doing the work, and where humans are involved, the US is concentrating on higher value products.

    This is EXACTLY what we saw in the farm industry. In 1900, 30% of Americans worked on a farm. Today, fewer than 2% do, but the US produces more food than it did in 1900 with far fewer workers and less land.

    If the (mostly) low value-add manufacturing done by China had to be done in the US, it would be done by machines, not human workers.