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Google Asks US For WTO Block On China Censorship
An anonymous reader writes "Google is asking the US government to petition the World Trade Organization to recognize China's censorship as an unfair barrier to trade. The US Trade Representative is reviewing their petition to see if they can prove that China's rules discriminate against foreign competition. At least it's something worthwhile for the US Trade Reps to do, rather than secretly negotiating ACTA."
Internet based trade barriers are everywhere, what immediately also comes to mind are the US block on gambling websites.
The problem here is that it won't be easy to figth this one when we're not smelling like a rose, either.
Most ignorance is vincible ignorance. We don't know because we don't want to know. --Aldous Huxley
Well personally I'd wait and see if they "do no evil" with regard to their blatantly obvious software patent for using geolocation info to target ads.
because we want to make sure the country's nice to live in when we finally have to move over there to get a worthy job?
If you could not point out an error unless you are yourself completely free of any error no-one would speak up for anything.
In other words: You can never really counter any argument by proclaiming the other party also does things wrong... While it might feel morally right to do so it makes no sense logically, the argument still stands and everyone is just as flawed (or even more because of it).
Then again, this is really the pot calling the kettle black... And it can become annoying and more important unproductive, so I do agree with you.
China must have called their bluff and won the first round. Now that "we'll leave if you don't change your ways" is off the table, Google's hand is a lot weaker. At this point I expect them to run around for another few months, pretend that they're actually trying to do something that will work, eventually declare "victory" and continue on in China like none of this ever happened.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
In response China should petition the World Trade Organisation to recognise USA's patents and copyrigt as an unfair barrier to trade.
Believing in freedom is exactly why we are pestering the Chinese. This has nothing to do with telling a country what to do and everything with preventing oppression. Our own country (The United States) is far from perfect, and we do some pretty fucked up things...but we still don't prevent our own citizens from information, ESPECIALLY information critical of our own government.
In fact, criticizing our government openly and publicly is one of the greatest freedoms we have. Good luck finding a version of Lil' Bush that's called Lil' Mao.
Living With a Nerd
"Gentlemen, you can't just do whatever you want, this is free trade!"
Set your phasers on "funky"!
First, I think you'll find that Google is an advocate of internet freedom not just in China, but in other countries also.
Second, in totalitarian regimes a country doesn't belong to its citizens, it belongs to the ruling class.
Third, believing in freedom is compatible with believing in the criticism of tyranny -- that is not imposing anything on anyone, and is ok even if you don't live in a perfect country yourself (otherwise even the worst dictator could use this defence!)
Finally, many people who criticize Chinese censorship are also critical of their own government's. While there is a bit of xenophobia and jingoism when it comes to China, that isn't the case for all criticism of the Chinese government, and doesn't represent an attack on the Chinese people.
Not "just like everybody else". Yahoo and others were happy to censor their search results silently, while Google insisted that they be able to display the fact that they had been censored. In my opinion, this was the least bad option. If they had meekly followed Yahoo, the Chinese people would have no idea what was being censored and how often. If they had refused to censor, China would simply have thrown them out and walled them off, and Chinese searchers would have been limited to silently censored searches. Any change to China must come from inside China, from the Chinese people. But what they don't know they cannot change; Google's solution at least told them when something was being hidden from them, so they can ask if they want a government that does that. If Google pulls out of China, it will revert to the state that the Chinese will not even know what is being hidden from them.
Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
So when we start working against censorship in Italy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Italy#During_Berlusconi.27s_era_.281992-present.29
Why, oh why does everyone keep telling the Chinese what to do with their country? Didn't you guys believe in freedom or something? Or does that not apply until you have troops stationed there?
Fix your own damn country first.
I believe in freedom of the people, not freedom of the government. I don't approve of China's censorship any more than I would approve of the U.S. government doing the same thing. Pointing out that we have our own problems doesn't invalidate the criticism of Chinese censorship.
Three days from now?? Thats tomorrow!! ~Peter Griffin
> why does everyone keep telling the Chinese what to do with their country? Didn't you guys believe in freedom or something?
Clasically, international law recognized the state's right to do whatever it wanted within its borders, but even then the creation of international law had to do with the problem of human rights, in a way. The thirty years war had wreaked havoc on Europe, and hundreds of towns and cities across the continent were burned or otherwise scourged by the war. Starting around 1648, after the Peace of Westphalia, nations could not longer do whatever they wanted.
The connection to human rights remained largely latent until WW2, however. Then we had the holocaust. War Crime prosecution at Nurenberg, the drafting of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the ICCPR, and then the formation for the first time of transnational organizations (Amnesty International being one of the early starters) for the advancement of human rights, led us into a world where everyone agreed that it mattered what people did within their own country. Some things are illegal. Slavery, piracy, and aggressive war are the most obvious.
In our society, individuals have certain freedoms so long as they don't break the social contract, express or implied. In international society, nations have freedom so long as they don't break the social contract among nations, express or implied. In both cases, it's easier to get away with breaking the contract if you're bigger, you're stronger, you have more money, or nobody finds out about it.
As to your last point, if we knew how to fix our country, we would. We're trying, and we'll keep trying. But we still live in the world. We still have obligations--and so does China--not only on a moral level and arising out of our duty to our citizenry and our species, but also arising out of treaty obligations under the WTO. If China agrees to be part of the WTO, then it can expect to have a complaint filed against it if it violates WTO rules. The same is true for the United States, or Canada, or any other signatory to the relevant treaties.
-- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
It would be great if this came to pass, but it wont. First, you're going to have a hard time getting China to do anything particularly when the people themselves believe that censorship is sometimes necessary. But more importantly, most companies couldn't care less. What they want is cheap manufacturing and some level of experience. China provides both while other developing nations can't yet meet these needs.
And China is a great target for passing the buck. Anything goes wrong with your product blame the Chinese manufacturers. When some of Mattel's toys were found to have a variety of problems what did they do? Blame China. Everyone completely overlooked the fact that Mattel should be directly involved in overseeing the manufacturing of their own products. But why should they care? The whole point of going to China to begin with was to cut costs.
If most companies don't care about the kind the quality of the stuff they sell us why the hell would they care about what China does on its own soil? And currently China is in a situation where it can throw its weight around. Perhaps when India and Southeast Asia are much stronger competitors to China things will change because at that point it will become more apparent that the world doesn't really need China. But of course, that really isn't going to help the case for China easing up on its own people.
And like I've stated, most Chinese don't think there's a problem at all. Frankly, there are far greater atrocities taking place around the world that Google should be speaking up about.
The WTO is certainly among the lesser evils. In the old-old days, when the uber-wealthy wanted to protect their property rights, they had to hire mercenaries. It was cruel, but at least it was honest.
Later in history, the developments of religion and nationalism enabled those on top to use mere rhetoric to convince the poor to die protecting business interests. Protect the King's land from the godless invaders! Fly under the stars and stripes to defend the fruit company's interests in the banana republics!
With the advent of conscription, however, those who owned the world could merely summon slaves to make sure their property remained under their control (Korea, Vietnam).
But the Owners didn't entirely control the new phenomenon of mass media, and popular opinion turned. Slavery wasn't an option, so we tried espionage (CIA) and even old-school mercenaries (Gulf War I) to protect businesses interests .
The uber-rich aren't going to stop trying to protect "their" property, but with the Internet turning media upside-down, it will be harder than ever to get the poor to agree to conscription, crusades or even merc work. Using trade embargoes via the WTO is probably better than outright war for this purpose, so long as they don't embargo to the point of mass starvation.
(For the record: I'm not anti-capitalist. Humanity just sucks when it comes to war and money. A progressive capitalism in which you can get rich but you can't take it with you [high inheritance tax to fund education of the poor] sounds most appealing to me.)
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
Why don't you try to get uncensored documents about the US government torturing Guantanamo prison inmates? Why don't you try a FOIA request for what is being requested by the Homeland Security letters? How about warrant-less wiretaps?The freedom of information is an illusion in the United States. Our government has figured out that letting us talk openly about things is pretty harmless when we don't have access to any of the really damaging information about government activity.
Check out my lame java blog at www.javachopshop.com
First of all, some of us do care about our fellow humans... I don't want the Chinese people to live under censorship and I support Google for attempting to tackle that problem. If China doesn't like that, too bad, so sad, they shouldn't be treating their people like shit to begin with. Secondly, as a rising power China may eventually overshadow the US as far as influencing world policy, etc. Do I want a country that treats its people like shit to be making decisions that will affect me? We should tell China to fix their own country and treat their people with respect before they try to influence the rest of the world.
(btw, I'm Canadian, and I know that the USA isn't perfect but it's pretty good as far as dominant superpowers go)
Call me when they try to enforce it. It's just good policy to file defensive patents on seemingly stupid things. It stinks that the system is designed so that it's good policy, but it is good policy nonetheless.
Check out my lame java blog at www.javachopshop.com
The history of political institutions is a history of the political struggle between those who would govern and those who are governed. While the needs of the people might be most effectively med by an a enlightened despot, most despots have proven themselves to be most unenlightened.
While China, as a state, is free, the subjects of that state are not free. Confuse the two at your peril.
While I agree with you, previnting inside government information from reaching the public is one thing...blocking people from viewing a website like wikipedia is entirely fucking different.
Living With a Nerd
That's because most politicians learned a long time ago that any criticism can be rendered meaningless, when you can simply buy your election with a slew of campaign ads and a good dose of fear tactics and political manipulation.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Obviously you are incapable of logic. The Chinese government censors third-party information so that its citizens cannot access it.
The US government merely declines to publish information it itself generates. The US government has not censored information about Guantanamo. If it had, Guantanamo would not have become an election issue.
If you do or can not understand the difference, you are probably too stupid to use any information anyway.
when we don't have access to any of the really damaging information about government activity
What do all of these things have in common? They are all exposed government scandals/controversies. The administrations involved (and some that were not) attempted to either squash any further investigation or simply punish those who did the exposing. But did they succeed? No. And why not? Because the courts/congress/press would not allow that to happen.
People in China and Iran are regularly arrested for doing nothing more than suggesting policy that the regime does not agree with. People in the US were carrying automatic weapons while burning the president in effigy last August. People still complain openly that Bush a) stole the 2000 election, b) enriched his oil buds, c) killed thousands of Iraqis and US soldiers based on a personal grudge, d) was in the grip of some kind of evil demon (Cheney?) And yet even those who disagree with these positions would defend - to the death - the right to express them without reprisal.
I echo Pojut's qualification that the US is by no means perfect (it's govt is, after all, responsible for the creation of these scandals). And there is always room for more openness. But to compare the US to China/Iran/N.Korea/Egypt/Zimbabwe/Russia/etc is to diminish the plight of the people living in those nations. We are outraged on principle. They suffer in reality.