Slashdot Mirror
Using Classical Music As a Form of Social Control
cyberfringe writes "Classical music is being used increasingly in Great Britain as a tool for social control and a deterrent to bad behavior. One school district subjects badly behaving children to hours of Mozart in special detention. Unsurprisingly, some of these youth now find classical music unbearable. Recorded classical music is blared through speakers at bus stops, outside stores, train stations and elsewhere to drive away loitering youth. Apparently it works. Detentions are down, graffiti is reduced, and naughty youth flee because they find classical music repugnant."
And that's exactly what it's going to do -- the youth of Britain will identify ALL classical music as repugnant based on its use and the majority will want nothing to do with it. Indeed, they will want to see it burned.
Maybe they should use some music whose artists aren't several hundred years dead, then perhaps the artists could have a very interesting discussion as to the use of their music...
I don't agree with this at all! How many of these kids who may have grown up to enjoy classical music are turned off by it forever? How many children will avoid their school music programs now, which have positive effects on everything from social development to grades? This makes me so angry.
"Youths" don't stay young forever. Before very long they'll be adults, with legitimate reasons to be at stores and train stations and bus stops, but they still won't like the music. Any place that continues to play it will be driving away a whole lot of customers.
Chavs yes, the rest of the youth not so much.
If you don't like what I write don't be a CS and mod it down. Refute it.
Yea I can't spell. So what is your point?
Maybe they should use some music whose artists aren't several hundred years dead, then perhaps the artists could have a very interesting discussion as to the use of their music...
I suggest Rage Against The Machine.
How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
I wonder what they'll think of Video Games Live. Will "repugnant" classical music + awesome video game tunes make their heads explode?
"Playing music in the public for free only gets things worse."
Why do you think they tried classical music in the first place?
Playing contemporary music costs more than removing the graffiti.
Why do Brits keep reading dystopian fiction to get ideas? Why aren't we bombing them for it?
Most adults I know can't stand classical music either.
I would hazard a guess and say that the people who dreamt up this scheme don't either. I do wonder why this is news though, this idea was tried out at least a decade ago.
Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
The operators of a shopping centre near my home have started doing this in an area where teenagers tend to hang around outside. The thing is the spot the kids are using is ideal for the purpose. Its out of the way and a bit dirty. Nobody else goes there and its not really a place people walk through. So I don't really see a point beyond a vague "we don't like them" sentiment.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
Classical music is quite enjoyable. You can point to plenty of musical/acoustic reasons why this is the case, as in the songs feature things that people find pleasing to hear. It is not the sort of thing that you require intense training to appreciate because it is all intellectual or something, and the actual sound is awful, it is simply nice to listen to.
The primary reason that youth seems not to like it is a cool factor thing, not because the music itself is in some way offensive. When you grow up, you hopefully realize that is pretty stupid, and can enjoy it.
When did our kids becomes our enemies? It seems the UK do about everything in their power to alienate their youth. I really don't know about the UK, but is there really such a big problem with "unruly youths" that you have to bombard them with "deterrents" that seem to come from the privy closet of Marquis de Sade?
What sadist comes up with those things? And why do I have the gut feeling that the only reason this is targeted at kids is just that they can't vote and thus can't kick the bastard off his comfy chair?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Strange. We're thinking of the children when we strip away the freedoms of the adults, and appearantly we're thinking of the adults when we're stripping away the freedoms of our kids. In other words, when we're taking away from everyone, we make everyone happy... or something like that must be the logic.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
They should switch to country western. No loss there.
Cool art gallery, if you're into that sort of thing.
I hate the republican party too...
Absolutely correct. I'm nearly 60 but this also means that I can remember the 60s (vaguely, if you know all those jokes) when we were 'allowed' (with guitars, sometimes) into public space.
The current UK trend is to deny youth any use of public space (we've just locked a churchyard because of the occasional bit of trouble), remove benches and exert social control on all gathering youth. Where are these guys and gals supposed to go? Oh, I know, to McDonalds or some place where they spend money, that's OK.
We badly need to get back to a mixture of tolerance, being less fearful and, on the other side making kids aware of how to use and co-exist in public space (we managed, with on/off brushes with the police) with the 'olds'. All this repression is idiotic, ineffective and counterproductive (because it alienates rather than teaches).
On y va, qui mal y pense!
Classical music when live is even more dynamic than it is on the highest end speaker system. That's because you have 100 simultaneous devices generating sound and it is quite exhilarating whereas 100 instruments coming out of 2 speakers is garbled. The problem is that classical music e.g., 1812 Overture presents some extreme engineering challenges to sound systems in that it produces extreme clipping/distortion in just about any speaker system especially when the cannon go off.
Do they water board at the bus stop in the USA?
The city of Heerlen in the Netherlands has been doing this with great success for about 3 years now.
Yep, the British took the gloves off when it came to The Troubles. That doesn't excuse Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, or extreme rendition. Although not too many countries have their hands completely clean on this score if you go back far enough in the last century. Algeria and Viet Nam for France. Any state that went through a totalitarian fascist or communist phase. And that's for the relatively modern and supposedly enlightened states.
As a Canadian, I'm not too happy about our recent prisoner fubar in Afghanistan. especially since it seems that it wasn't just a screwup like in Somalia (where the wrong type of troops were assigned to the wrong type of duty), but that instead the politicians and upper echelons appear to have known about it for a long time and both deliberately allowed it and covered it up at the same time. Those jerks have trashed a reputation that many Canadian soldiers and diplomats gave their up lives in building. But the Brits really need someone to set up a third party that can get their political and law-enforcement houses in order.
These Brit hooligans should be thankful. At least they're not being subjected to Metallica. Oh the humanity!
http://www.object404.com
It's a shame Mozart did not account for all the morons of the 20th and 21th century that damaged their own ears by cranking up the volume with headphones.
It moves the problem, it doesn't solve it.
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
And that's exactly what it's going to do -- the youth of Britain will identify ALL classical music as repugnant based on its use and the majority will want nothing to do with it. Indeed, they will want to see it burned.
Maybe they should use some music whose artists aren't several hundred years dead, then perhaps the artists could have a very interesting discussion as to the use of their music...
They would, but they can't afford to pay the perpetual copyright.
The only possible interpretation of any research whatever in the 'social sciences' is: some do, some don't
It was a sin because in the end it didn't ruin Beethoven for him it had the opposite effect and made violence a thing of beauty for him.
ALEX's voice over at the end of the movie - "And what do you know, my brothers and only friends, it was the 9th, the glorious 9th of Ludwig van. Oh, it was gorgeosity and yummy yum yum. I was cured. As the music came to its climax, I could viddy myself very clear, running and running on like very light and mysterious feet, carving the whole face of the creeching world with my cut throat britva. I was cured all right."
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
I like classical music, if this was done in MY country, I'd make it my mission to destroy any and all of these classical music blaring speakers.
If they showed a video of Renee Fleming (or Anna Netrebko)singing Mozart opera, the yobs would have to be forcibly moved on by the police. She (Renee)is the most beautiful opera diva in the world. Go look in YouTube if you don't believe me. Mozart a punishment? - hardly. If these yobs are repelled by Mozart then I fear for the next generation of Brits. I live in Vienna Austria now - not 5 mins. walk away from where Wolferl Mozart wrote The Marriage of Figaro. Get a life you uneducated british generation.
Some of them are mimes.
I'm guessing that wasn't on their radar screen...
A lot of people here argue that somehow, people will be people, young and old, and if you're going to ruin it for them now, you'll have ruined it for them forever. A lot of this commentary is made from the preconception that the youths targeted here are of the sort that will eventually land on their feet, live in the adult world, and be responsible citizens. I would like to point out (much in contrast with my own ideas on how society ought to function) that this is Britain we're talking about. I know this is difficult to imagine for someone not from the Perfid Albion itself, but there you have it. So no, these youngsters aren't innocent, just a bit under-educated little angels otherwise full of promise - these are wilfully malevolent, purposely stupid little monsters, only good for the dole and the pub. They will not have a job that pays taxes in their lives and they will probably die from something crime-, smoke- or alcohol-related. Sure, someone let them down along the way: their parents, the government, their infrastructure, whatever, but by the time that these boys start hanging out on street-corners, it's already way to late to do anything about it. They're a lost cause, and they know it, and the people who play classical music in order to get rid of them, know it. So stop arguing like they're being treated too harshly - if you want them treated with a pussy-glove, it should have been done years, years ago. Considering the alternatives, playing classical music to them *is* treating them softly.
Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
Well, the brochures are hard to come by.
But it's actually easy to travel.
Just make some federal agent believe that you are terrorist scum, and Uncle Sam will arrange the trip for you.
General social mores in the United States may give you 'fascist right-wing wackos', but they also give you kids who aren't feral.
Hardly. Vast swathes of the south side of Chicago, Eastern LA, Salt Lake City, Baltimore, Washington D.C., Miami, New York, Philadelphia, etc. etc. have "ferel youth" running rampent. The middle class doesn't acknowledge this as they are safely tucked away in their gated communities, but anyone who has lived downtown knows this, even without seeing newscasts of this or that drive-by shooting.
And that doesn't even begin to touch the spate of school and university killings in the middle and upper class campuses that have blighted the US, usually in the heart of these so-called "moral" communities you talk about (and the so-called "gun rights" they support).
I do prefer the government in the UK over that of the US (the country is, by and large, more governable, and better governed, than the US) ... but the country here is by no means perfect, and out-of-control youth are a big problem. Too many of them watching the wire and trying to mimic American kids they think are cool, perhaps. What is telling is that they have found an effective, non-violent solution to the problem (playing classical music), and folks are comparing it to the Marquis de Sade for crying out loud -- probably some of the same folks who would favour calling in the police to crack heads if it were happening on their side of the pond, or in their neighbourhood. And then go to church on Sunday and expound on America's "moral superiority" while decrying any kind of sane healthcare system and lamenting the current administration's reversal on the use of torture against "foreign combatants."
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
My experience has not been that the music has been incredibly loud, it's been quite pleasant in fact.
I found it quite funny when I first heard they were doing this at my local bus stop, I didn't think it would be a deterrent as it wouldn't have dettered me (I was a teen when they started doing this). Was surprised it worked though.
Britains main problem isthe criminalising of its youth. They steadily reduced the amount of money going to youth programs and centres, thereby reducing the amount of places and free activities that children could go to and do. So as a result more and more of them started hanging around streets and at malls as they had no where else to go. This scared people seeing large "gangs of youth and about, assuming they must be upto no good.
They are asked to move on by police or people because they are scaring people just by being there, made to feel like criminals and then we expect them to act better.
Britain has seen a drop in most criminal activity despite Labours addition of several thousand new criminal laws since they came to power in 1997. Yet most people think the country has got worse, and seem to blame the youth more and more.
May be it was more or less innocent in the 60s (except that Manson bloke) and that may be was one of the reasons it was allowed and now it is not allowed because it grew to much sinister things.
The curbing of any freedoms start with the most obvious cases supported by everybody (forbidding "fire!" in the theatre free speech, e.g.), then goes to less popular cases ("pedophilia"), then it could be a ban on making photos of police (UK), then it could become a ban on foul language against government officials and it could end up with a system of bans on almost any speech (like in Northern Korea).
But same is true for the movement in opposite direction as well: first freedoms that are allowed are the most obvious ones, then less obvious and then you can end up with ridiculous "freedoms" that end up harming the society.
Sustained society (with healthy reproduction of it's core defining tenets from generation to generation) implements some sort of balance between allowing and curbing of freedoms that was achieved during decades of trial and error.
The understanding of what constitutes freedoms and what not constantly changes in Western society. It is obvious that every current snapshot of currently allowed freedoms is not some kind of scientific truth, but a result of social agreement, social contract.
In the Western model there is no right and wrong except what is defined by some kind of core (majority, powers to be, media, charismatic figures, celebrities, some kind of elite, etc. - very vague and hard to define group really) of society.
So getting back to your observation: in 60s it was that way, now it is this way, tomorrow it will be a different way - but what is clear that it hardly affects the principles of Western society.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
I live in Hamburg, Germany and we have had this feature on some Subway stations for some years now. It definately works, also against bums and junkies, but not against the pocket-thieves.
Politicians these days have no ideas on how to solve the enormous problems society has. They can only think of solutions that treat the symptoms and not the cause. The cause for civil unrest is, of course, the economic situation. It is bad, and it will only be worse in the future...and then no music will save us from the urban "terrorism".
Wait, XKCD is supposed to be funny?
You are welcome on my lawn.
"Any moral superiority should be limited strictly to civilian law enforcement."
ROFL
Yet most people think the country has got worse, and seem to blame the youth more and more.
You've just described every "older" generation in every country in the world all throughout human history.
"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein
A local coffee shop has done this for years. They're a little too close to the high school for comfort, so they installed a speaker outside playing classical/light jazz.
Ugh. Light jazz? What's that supposed to repel? People with taste? That crap is the worst kind of Muzak, not only repugnant to the senses, but the ultimate insult to what jazz is all about.
Ask me about my sig!
This is an interesting point, and hardly limited to the UK. In the US concern over crime in schools has led to numerous "zero tolerance" laws which cast far too wide a net often "catching" people for whom the law was never intended.
Or, another but no less harmful side-effect (IMHO), is throwing the book at an at-risk kid who would be better served by more attentive staff and counseling. I realize fully it's easy to make such statements when schools are often overwhelmed and often underfunded (although I *WAS* surprised to learn many bay-area teachers make ~$100K) and have no ability to provide such services.
Still, when funds are available I think some kind of intervention program would be more beneficial than "zero-tolerance" or being hassled by police as described by the parent post. Yes, there will be cases where an individual is incorrigible, but I think too many good apples are thrown out with the bad.
Computer Science is Applied Philosophy
People have always thought things were getting worse as the country modernised. That phrase "going to the dogs" was coined in the 16th century.
Unfortunately people like having someone to blame and the media creates fear where there need not be any. It's ironic that anti-social behaviour is now being "tackled" with more anti-social behaviour. I wonder what would happen if I set up an ultra-sonic siren to scare off dog walkers who foul the pavement near my house? What about "stinger" spike strips to roll out in front of cyclists and invalid carriage drivers who use the pavement? I should start playing recorded lectures on atheism out my window the next time the church/mosque next door starts that annoying worshipping and to discourage their followers from hanging around in groups near where I live?
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
And that's exactly what it's going to do -- the youth of Britain will identify ALL classical music as repugnant based on its use and the majority will want nothing to do with it. Indeed, they will want to see it burned.
I posted this above, too, but you guys are dense beyond belief.
It isn't a deterrent because they don't like the sounds hitting their ears.
It deters because it simply is not cool. See the comment above about getting the same mileage out of light jazz.
You've got to be kidding me. I've lived in the DC area my entire life and visit Baltimore quite a bit. The number of "gated communities" I've encountered could be counted on two hands. They're much more common out west, particularly in the Southwest like Vegas or Phoenix.
You really don't know what you're talking about. There are "bad" neighborhoods near DC (mostly in MD), but they are immediately adjacent to middle class neighborhoods with no barriers between. There are gangs and crime just like any urban area, but they are addressed with policing, youth centers, neighborhood watches, etc. Most of the cities you mention have seen dramatic drops in crime rates over the past 10-15 years.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
See, the problem is that the left equates "society" with "government." We don't owe ANYTHING to our government; it's just a necessary evil.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
This is absolutely disgusting, regardless of its effectiveness. Using Pavlonian conditioning to undermine free will is beyond inhumane.
Not only that, but they are also abusing these ancient and highly-prized works and further destroying anyone's interest in them in the future.
"Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
Or the crime rates actually drop when people think crime is a problem, and they raise as soon as people don't care as much anymore.
I'd be interested to hear your theories as to how the worldwide recession and decline in religion are caused by UK socialised healthcare.
Isn't it just what you said in your own post ... money that used to be in private hands organised youth clubs and activities via the private / charity / church etc. sectors; nowadays that money gets taxed instead and spent by government on bigger/broader programs (which are also less religion-focused than e.g. a local church). As the state has gotten bigger, it's programs have supplanted more effective grass-roots ones that used to solve the problem at local level in communities, but now money is diverted from those to the state. The bigger the state gets, the less money every other non-state individual or organisation has, it's very simple.