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The Future of Wind Power May Be Underground

Hugh Pickens writes "When the wind is blowing, it is usually the cheapest peaking power available. However utilities need consistent always-on power from large, cheap coal and nuclear power plants that are the backbone of the electric grid. Wired reports that operators are looking at Compressed Air Energy Storage (CAES) using abandoned mines and sandstones of the Midwest to store compressed-air. This converts the intermittent motions of the air into a steady power source by using it to run air compressors to pump air into an underground cave where it's stored under pressure. The first CAES plant in the United States actually went online in McIntosh, Alabama in 1991 where engineers created a geological pocket 900 feet long and up to 238 feet wide in a dome by pumping water into it to dissolve the rock salt. When the (briny) water was pumped back out, the salt resealed itself and they had an air-tight container."

13 of 223 comments (clear)

  1. Generate a Vacuum by rally2xs · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Instead, build long tunnels between major cities, evacuate them down to between 0 and 3 psi, and run high speed trains through them. The trains would need very little energy to run thru the extremely thin atmosphere, and the pressure diffential can be used to generate electricity when needed. 2 birds, 1 stone.

    1. Re:Generate a Vacuum by Patrik_AKA_RedX · · Score: 4, Funny

      We could use those stones to build houses for the poor. So, ... Six stones?

    2. Re:Generate a Vacuum by Avin22 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      2 birds, 1 very expensive stone. It would probably cost a great deal of money to build tunnels, evacuate out almost all the air, and maintain that low atmosphere. Sure, it might save some energy of running the train, but the money and resources needed to do this would greatly outweigh any benefit. We are almost certainly much better off investing in other ways of producing or saving energy.

    3. Re:Generate a Vacuum by Normal+Dan · · Score: 4, Funny

      Any birds unlucky enough to get sucked in will suffocate. 4 birds, 1 stone!

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    4. Re:Generate a Vacuum by clarkkent09 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why not just move cities closer to each other. It would be cheaper than your idea.

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    5. Re:Generate a Vacuum by Hognoxious · · Score: 5, Funny

      2 birds

      African or European?

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  2. Unwater Bags by Black+Gold+Alchemist · · Score: 5, Informative

    Another solution for the large scale storage of electricity is the inflation of airtight bags deep under water. Since water is so heavy, it exerts a lot of pressure against the air, leading to a cheap method of energy storage. The problem with all compressed-air systems is that have losses due to the non-isothermal nature of the process. That means some energy is lost as heat during compression, and you don't gain it all back thanks to Carnot. The energy density by volume is quite low, unfortunately, but in this application, that's basically irrelevant.

    For the curious, the energy density of compressed gas, is 100*P*ln(P/A) kJ/m^3, where P is the maximum pressure and A is the ambient pressure. That m^3 term is in the volume when compressed.

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  3. Load leveling Vs. Supply leveling by ductonius · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The problem with these energy storage techniques for renewables is every single one of them would be more economical if they were used as load leveling systems (suck extra energy during down times, release in peak hours) rather than supply leveling systems (suck extra energy in high production hours, release it in low production hours).

    The reason for this is day-to-day and monthly power consumption is a very easy thing to predict, so we know very well how much storage we need and if it will or will not be enough. Using these systems we can level the load and allow the greenest power sources (nuclear, followed by hydro) to produce the vast majority of power we need (because they can run at near 100% 24/7).

    The wind is a very much harder thing to predict. So how much storage is needed? Who knows. What we DO know is that every single wind power station is going to need gas turbine backups for when a) the wind doesn't blow, b) demand is high and c) storage is depleted.

    Using energy storage to allow nuclear and hydro to run most economically is a far better choice than using it to level the output of wind power.

  4. Compared to pumped hydro by steveha · · Score: 4, Informative

    The first question I thought of was, "Why not just use pumped hydro power?" Then, oddly enough, I read TFA and found the answer in it:

    The nation's largest energy storage option right now is pumped hydroelectricity. When excess electricity is present in a system, it can be used to pump water up to a reservoir. Then, when that power is needed, the water is sent through a turbine to generate electricity. The U.S. electric system has 2.5 gigawatts of pumped hydro storage capacity, but most of the good, cheap sites are already occupied, and creating new reservoirs is not environmentally benign.

    And, as noted in the summary, compressed air energy storage (CAES) been tried and it works:

    'We expect the CAES plant technology pioneered in Alabama to lead to widespread application in this country," said Robert Schainker, the manager of the Electric Power Research Institute's Energy Storage Program in a press release announcing the plant's completion. 'Three fourths of the United States has geology suitable for underground air storage. At present, more than a dozen utilities are evaluating sites for CAES application."

    steveha

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  5. The real info about dispatching wind power by Animats · · Score: 5, Informative

    This is the Slashdot-misunderstood version of the Wired dumbed-down version. Here's some of the more serious stuff.

    Wind Operations Dispatching Training: This is the grid system operator's view of wind power.

    There's a lot going on. Since electricity deregulation, the power distribution companies don't own much generation capacity. They buy power from generating companies. So there's a market system and contracts in place. The contracts are now more long-term; the "auction every half hour" scheme California had for a few years is out of favor. Now, the planning horizon is about one day.

    There's a whole series of PJM online courses, and if you go through some of the basic ones, you'll be able to talk about electric power intelligently.

  6. Numbers from second article by steveha · · Score: 4, Informative

    As a result, the plant produces one kilowatt-hour -- or 1,000 watt-hours -- of electricity for each 870 watts consumed the previous night. In contrast, the most common mode of energy storage is pumped hydro, in which water is pumped uphill at night, and during the day a valve is turned and the water runs back down, with the pumps recapturing the mechanical energy and turning it into electricity. But in that system, each kilowatt-hour put in delivers no more than 700 or 750 watts back out again. Batteries have about the same ratio.

    I assume we should reverse those first numbers: we spend 1,000 watt-hours to gain 870 watt-hours later. Cool to see that it beats pumped hydro.

    http://www.nytimes.com/1991/09/29/business/technology-using-compressed-air-to-store-up-electricity.html

    Hydroelectric plants often cost $1,000 per kilowatt of capacity, and batteries cost far more. The cost of building the Alabama plant was about $550 per kilowatt of capacity.

    And it's cheaper than pumped hydro!

    The American plant has one new twist, however: the exhaust gases from the turbine are used to preheat the compressed air after it is brought up from the cavern. That makes it 25 percent more efficient than its German predecessor, the institute says.

    Interesting. Of course, if you use this with a wind farm, you don't get this benefit; the plant discussed here is a coal plant, with plenty of waste heat.

    The above article is from 1991. Despite all these advantages, the idea never took off before now. It saved money, but not a huge amount. But since the wind blows when it blows, not when you want it to blow, I can see this being a useful thing for a wind farm.

    steveha

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  7. advantages and disadvantages of compressed air by FishTankX · · Score: 5, Informative

    Sadly, tunnels large enough to carry trains, as modern subways will prove, are prohibitivley expensive.

    however, compressed air is a good energy storage medium.

    Assuming a 900 foot by 300 foot by 300 foot cavern was filled with compressed air with a pressure of 300 bars, would have a potential energy of roughly 50 gigawatt hours. (source: http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf) Or enough to run the entire united states for about an hour. This is a massive pool of energy, and significantly more cost effective than a battery.

    HOWEVER, there lies a rub. When you compress air, you generate a massive amount of heat as the thermal energy stored in the air is highly compressed. This heat energy, unless properly reclaimed and stored (I.E. In a molten salt bath) just leaks away, stealing a huge chunk of the potential energy with it. When the air is uncompressed, there is significantly less heat energy stored in the air, and thus the expanded gas is very cold. This limits how far it can expand again, and creates a formidable problem in the form of condensation.

    What you need to do to get EFFICENT compressed air storage, is either store the heat in an efficent manner, and add it back to the compressed air. OR you can gradually warm it back up to room temperature through a heat exchanger as it expands.

    All in all, the challenges to attaining decent efficency are considerable.

    What might be an easier way to achieve the same energy storage using similar principles, is to turn that same cavern they created into a giant hydro dam. Basically, create an enclosure of equal size below it. When energy needs to be stored, pump the water up to the higher cavern. When energy needs to be released, release it through hydro turbines into the lower cavern.

    1. Re:advantages and disadvantages of compressed air by mprinkey · · Score: 5, Informative

      Um, 50 gigawatt hours is about 1.8 * 10^14 joules. That is about 43 kilotons of energy. Now think catastrophic failure. Here is an example 1/10 the size.

      All energy storage systems...especially physical storage systems...suffer from the same problem. In order to store a useful amount of energy, they need to exist on a potentially catastrophic scale. Pump storage...where is the flood plane. Compressed air...what is the blast radius, where will the supercooled plume go, will it reach aviation altitudes? Flywheel storage...reference mythbusters with the CD on a die grinder. And while not a storage system, even geothermal power plants seem to cause geological instability.

      A few years ago, I did some modelling development for people doing salt mining for compressed air storage. (IAAMechEngineer.) At the time, I remember thinking what must the hoop stresses on a 100m cavern look like at a few hundred atmospheres? And that is rock and dirt and salt holding it together. Nothing in that system tends to behave elastically. So pressurizing and depressurizing it has to induce crack growth and eventually some geological instability. How do you do in-situ inspection of your "pressure vessel"?

      In my mind, some electrochemical process is far safer, even if it uses nasty chemical. Because you can keep the chemical apart (with 100-ft high berms if need be) until it is time to react them.