Good Language Choice For School Programming Test?

An anonymous reader writes "The Australian Informatics Olympiad programming test is being run in a couple of months. I'm an experienced programmer and I'm thinking of volunteering to tutor interested kids at my children's school to get them ready. There will be children of all levels in the group, from those that can't write 'hello world' in any language, to somewhat experienced programmers. For those starting from scratch, I'm wondering what language to teach them to code in. Accepted languages are C, C++, Pascal, Java, PHP, Python and Visual Basic. I'm leaning towards Python, because it is a powerful language with a simple syntax. However, the test has a run-time CPU seconds limit, so using an interpreted language like Python could put the students at a disadvantage compared to using C. Is it better to teach them something in 2 months that they're likely to be able to code in but possibly run foul of the CPU time limit, or struggle to teach them to code in a more complicated syntax like C/C++ which would however give them the best chance of having a fast solution?"

Comments

I'm guessing the CPU limits are generous.

[Jason Pollock]

I'm guessing that the CPU limits are generous and are more about filtering out bad algorithms than bad languages.

For example, someone using stooge sort instead of quicksort...

While the language used would increase the budget, the algorithms used will very quickly swamp any language gains.

When I did programming contests, they were more bound on thought (how quickly you can come up with an algorithm) and then implementation time. Rarely did compute time come into it.

Go With Your Gut

[Bob(TM)]

Unless these kids already have a programming proficiency, go with your gut.

The exercise is as much about allowing them to test the programming waters as it is about them winning. If you are starting with a blank slate, that means you need to create an environment that is intriguing. If YOU think Python is the thing, you'll be passionate ... and that is a lot of what makes a good coach/tutor in an olympiad.

Further, I think you could do a lot worse than Python. It is really a great language and is popping up in a lot of disciplines as the scripting tool of choice. It will perform well and has great characteristics that make it well suited for someone learning the ropes. Plus, the language is modern enough to be relevant should they desire to pursue IT further.

I would stay away from C/C++. In the hands of novices in a timed activity, I would wager it would be more trouble than it's worth.

Python will give you th least problems

[gweihir]

C, C++ and Java are not an option. They all need years to master and have numerous non-obvious pitfalls. Pascal is pretty limitad and definitly a historic design. PHP is obscure in palaces. Visual Basic still is a bad joke, confined to just one platform and wioth numerous design problems.

On the other hand Python is fine, with the only thing to master the indention. Not on the list, but Ruby would also be nice. And for a minimalistic, yet powerful language, loot at (again not on the list) Lua.

Re:Faster than you think

[gd2shoe]

You can't really worry about the runtime limit since it should be rather liberal for a student's competition...

As the summary says "Accepted languages" (presumably the competition rules), I would tend to agree. They're not going to ask your students to complete something that those languages cannot reasonably accomplish. Bad C++ code will be slower than halfway-decent Python code. Teach a good foundation, and let the chips fall where they may.

(And I too vote Python, by the way.)

Re:Strange limitation

[Charan]

I'm sure the CPU time limit would be generous enough that it won't matter if your programming language is interpreted 10x slower than hand-tuned assembly. They want to make sure you aren't using a brute-force O(n^3) algorithm when a linear one would work well enough.

Plus, the judges need a rule to allow them to terminate programs that may be stuck in infinite loops. Otherwise, a contestant could delay the results of a competition indefinitely.

(Imagine: "This competition was rigged! The judges killed my program before it had a chance to finish. It was working fine, and I was the first one to submit answers to all the problems. What? So it has a long start up time. You don't have a rule against 100-hour programs.")

surely not; Pascal was meant for this

[r00t]

We can sort of classify the languages into "slow" and "not slow" in various ways.

• Learning: Pascal is fast. C++ is horribly slow. The rest are moderate.
• Compiling: While it can't beat "no compile", Pascal is shockingly fast for people used to something like C or Java. C++ is horribly slow.
• Start-up: Pascal again does fine. Here it's joined by C and C++. The interpreted stuff is typicallly an embarassment.
• Run-time: Pascal again does fine. Here it's joined by C. C++ can be fast if you treat it like C or if you're a God-like expert in compiler/library details that normal mortals don't understand. The interpreted stuff is typically an embarassment.

This should come as no surprise. Pascal was intended as a teaching language. None of the other languages was designed for teaching, unless you somehow equate Visual Basic with BASIC.

The second choice is probably C, but you'll have some issues teaching about declarations/definitions (inside out) and string-related stuff. The meaning of '=' is also not compatible with normal math notation.

The third choice is probably Java. You get most of the trouble of C, less speed, and greater need for boilerplate sourcecode bloat.

Things you might want to consider

[sydneyfong]

I've participated in local and regional Informatics Olympiads, and went to the IOI once. I was involved in training local students a few years ago, so I know quite a bit of the ins and outs of these competitions.

All the languages have pros and cons, but PHP and VB obviously aren't suitable (if only for their encouragement of crappy coding practices). Java offers little advantage over C/C++, and it forces OOP onto you so it adds an unnecessary layer of complexity for the students.

The "industry standard" of competitive programming is C++, since it offers near-C speed with the power of various algorithms (eg. sort) and data structures ( maps, sets, priority queues ). Those who intend to take the competition seriously should be using C++ as their primary language. But then judging from your requirements the vast majority of your students won't fall into this category, so I wouldn't recommend C++, at least not at this stage.

Python generally is a good first language for its simplicity and power. There are a few problems with using python for competitive programming though. First, speed can become a problem for *some* contests, which have rather tight runtime constraints. The contests that cater for a wide range of languages are usually better in this respect, but a lot out there are primarily C/C++/Pascal/Java. Secondly, the fact that python supports a range of built in advanced data structures and algorithms means that you may lose the chance to teach them how to implement the basic stuff, eg. using a binary search tree to implement a map (typing `` mymap = {}; mymap[foo] = bar; '' is surely easier than implementing a BST yourself). You might ask why learn to reinvent the wheel when most modern languages provide these features, but these data structures and algorithms is the core of informatics olympiads, and one needs to learn from the basics. That being said, if the timeframe is just 2 months, I think teaching python might be most rewarding for the students.

C and Pascal are basically on the same league. C is a bit more "archaic" than Pascal in terms of the way it does things, but feature-wise they are roughly equivalent. The languages are simple, fast, and bare bones enough to force the user to implement the basic stuff. In the long term they are good languages for teaching data structures and algorithms, but require a bit of patience on the part of the student since you need to know quite a bit before you can do anything "flashy" with them.

My experience with most average students is that they usually struggle to form precise ideas on what to tell the program to do, and then when they do have rough ideas they then fail to write a syntactically correct program, and if they really do write a syntactically correct program the program usually fails on correctness for most inputs, or simply do the wrong thing. Running time shouldn't be a concern before the students actually get a correct program, and my experience is, unless you have really really bright students, most of them probably won't be able to come close to writing a correct program within competition constraints, so don't worry too much about running time.

In short, I recommend python, but in the long term you might want to think about using C/Pascal. And if you restrain yourself to a subset of C++, it might work too.

Re:Frameworks are more important than language

[cbhacking]

Python, Java, and VB (one must assume it's VB.NET, and thus has the same libraries as C#) are definitely what I would suggest on the basis of libraries. OK, you can do C++ with the CLR and CLR libraries, but C++ is *not* a good choice for a first language.

There's a lot of hate on /. for VB, perhaps because not many Slashdotters have tried any version of the language from the last 8 years, but it *is* a good first language - static and strong typing (by default now, I believe), either procedural or OOP (full support for inheritance, unlike legacy VB), BASIC-style syntax (intuitive and quick to pick up), fully memory managed (real GC, not just ref-counting), structured exception handling (no, it's not On Error Goto anymore), and all the .NET/Mono libraries available (before you ask, yes Mono has a VB compiler/runtime, and once you compile it all down to CIL the libraries are usable by any language).

Java has about half those advantages plus a lot of silly restrictions (although at least Scanner makes getting keyboard input a lot less retarded than it used to be), but it's still a popular choice for learning a first language, and a practical choice for those who want to make a career of programming (though they should learn multiple languages anyhow). Python is a better choice, and possibly quicker to learn, although I'm not a fan of dynamically typed languages with significant whitespace.