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YouTube's Bandwidth Bill May be Zero

MrShaggy writes "Credit Suisse made headlines this summer when it estimated that YouTube was costing Google a half a billion dollars in 2009 as it streamed 75 billion videos. But a new report from Arbor Networks suggests that even though Google is approaching 10 percent of the net's traffic, it's got so much fiber optic cable it is simply trading traffic, with no payment involved, with the net's largest ISPs. 'I think Google's transit costs are close to zero,' said Craig Labovitz, the chief scientist for Arbor Networks and a longtime internet researcher. Arbor Networks, which sells network monitoring equipment used by about 70 percent of the net's ISPs, likely knows more about the net's ebbs and flows than anyone outside of the National Security Agency."

188 comments

  1. It's obvious by sopssa · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I really don't see why Google would be paying much. It seems the guy who wrote that article now discovered how peering works.

    Routing graph for YouTube AS
    Routing graph for Google AS

    YouTube alone has direct peering contracts with AT&T, RETN, TINET and via Google AS with Net Access, NTT Communications, Telia, Level3, SIG, Sprint, Global Crossing, MFN, Cogent, Port80, Internet2 and AOL.

    Depending on the terms, it means Google can also act as a peering or transit point between these companies and or even have an IXP's at their locations, so theres incentive for ISP's to sign up beneficial transit agreement, especially considering Google has data centers around the world. Google has more power than Tier 1 ISP's alone. The article's note about "serving customers YouTube faster" is a moot point - Google's infrastructure and routing contracts alone act as a great incentive for ISP's to make a peering agreement with Google.

    1. Re:It's obvious by ircmaxell · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I really don't see why Google would be paying much.

      Unless you count the cost of running the fiber, and the cost of routers and maintenance. And the cost of generators, and power and other operating costs... Basically, "much" is relative. Compared to "buying" the bandwidth from a Tier-1 provider, probably not much. Compared to 0, probably very much...

      --
      If a man isn't willing to take some risk for his opinions, either his opinions are no good or he's no good
    2. Re:It's obvious by sopssa · · Score: 0

      It's relative of course, but the cost of routers and maintenance is nowhere near buying the bandwidth.

      Also if Google is wise, they're generating income on their infrastructure too. Who says some of their peering contract isn't actually buying bandwidth from Google?

    3. Re:It's obvious by drachenstern · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If the bill is zero, they're not making much either. It's a money game sure enough, but if they were making money, then the article would be about their profit from peering youtube's backbone to other providers. With the introduction of the new cisco switches/routers, and if the dark fiber is in appropriate places to do so, it's entirely possible an infrastructure upgrade would permit them to do this. However, that's doubtful. Google will almost always run at a break even, I should think, opting to send more data rather than transmit data across their networks.

      Granted, I'm not a major ops center manager for a Tier1, so I really can't say for sure. Making money is always nicer than losing it, I hear.

      --
      2^3 * 31 * 647
    4. Re:It's obvious by ircmaxell · · Score: 1

      It's relative of course, but the cost of routers and maintenance is nowhere near buying the bandwidth.

      Those two parts alone, true. But they have to by the right of ways from the power/telephone company (or whoever owns the properties they run their lines over) to run their fiber. They have to pay for the fiber and actually run it. They need to handle breaks and failures of the fiber. For someone the size of Youtube, it likely is much cheaper to build your own infrastructure than buying the bandwidth directly. My guess would be 10's if not 100's of millions of $$$ to build and maintain those systems over the course of a few years. And to most people, that's not cheap (I was just trying to provide a frame of reference for "cheap")...

      --
      If a man isn't willing to take some risk for his opinions, either his opinions are no good or he's no good
    5. Re:It's obvious by sopssa · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, the bill being zero is just speculation from the author of the article. It doesn't imply that there are no running costs providing all of that, but that the bandwidth itself could be close to zero cost if Google is directly peering with other companies (every other article previously assumes that Google is buying their bandwidth). I work at the same place where the main IXP of my country is and while I don't know the details, it's not an uncommon thing with smaller companies either. I'm quite sure there are similar contracts between ISP's and certain big media companies that rely heavily on the Internet as it just makes business sense to everyone. It would be stupid not to use that.

      Hell, there are weirder peering contracts too. A good example is that of The Pirate Bay, which has several AS to run their site and provide stable peering. DCSnet, PRQ and other belong all under the same umbrella and by the looks of it, have been improving their contracts with other ISP's to both get TPB to be more stable and maybe also to monetarize their peering contracts with several big ISP's. Remember that they're backed up by Carl Lundström who founded Rix Telecom AB (Port80), and Google also is peering with Port80.

      Even when smaller companies are doing that, it would be stupid of Google not to utilize their infrastructure. But I'm quite certain they do, they are a geek company after all, so they must know it.

    6. Re:It's obvious by archangel9 · · Score: 1

      Compared to 0, probably very much...

      and compared to infinity, it really is nothing.

    7. Re:It's obvious by Bengie · · Score: 1

      Laying fiber is a fixed cost for the most part, assuming the occasional idiot digging where they shouldn't. The cost of the fiber was paid for a while back, so it's a moot point.

      Now that the infrastructure is out of the way, lets concentrate on the rest.

      They (Google/YouTube) needs to pay network admins/engineers to maintain and also the cost of the routers. Ohh...wait.. Google has F'N HUGE data centers, so a router or two on the edge that connects to fiber that they own is a near 0 cost since they probably have salaried workers that already do the same crap on a much larger scale in the rest of their data centers.

      Fiber has a really good upgrade path because the main limit isn't the cable, but the routers on each end.

      Seems everything is a fixed cost, so relatively speaking, it's free. Once the fiber and routers are setup, they run pretty much on their own and all the maintenance is covered by the salaried admins/engineers who spend 99% of their time on daily maintenance with their huge data centers.

    8. Re:It's obvious by Duhavid · · Score: 1

      The "oh my, that turkey at ATT was right all along, Google is a freeloader" comments ( with the "they should be paying!" ) from "industry pundits" will commence in 5.. 4.. 3..

      --
      emt 377 emt 4
    9. Re:It's obvious by hhw · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's not correct. Nobody owns all of their own fiber, no matter how big they are. Not even the Tier 1's. They may own some of it, but the majority is leased. In fact, when you purchase fiber between two locations, even though you purchase it from one party, they may in turn own some segments, while leasing various segments from multiple different providers. Even though the bulk of the costs of fiber are one time, the high capital costs result in a leasing model to cover the costs over a long period of time.

      --
      http://astutehosting.com/
    10. Re:It's obvious by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

      yes they arn't paying "transit" costs but they still have to pay for their badwidth from thier datacentres to the paering points

    11. Re:It's obvious by uncledrax · · Score: 2, Informative

      Agreed.. even the place I work with peers directly with Google (and thus by extension YouTube).. it saves us from having to spend commodity-internet dollars on traffic to Google, improves the customer experience since it's fewer hops, and we can leverage more direct control (which means less finger pointing when/if something breaks.. either its us or google.. we don't have to worry about if our upstream peers are broken); and of course it works the other way around too.

      As for the cost of fiber and routers.. ya that's expensive.. but it's not the cost of bandwidth.. those are sunk costs or O&M generally.. I guess you could meter a per-bit charge for cooling and electricity, but there's only so many places to the right of the decimal point you can actually bill for.

      --
      ----- The internet has given everyone the ability to have their voice heard equally as loud.. even if they shouldn't be
    12. Re:It's obvious by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      Running fiber = $0 for much of Google's operation, since they bought up a lot of dark fiber.

  2. Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to run! by Rogerborg · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Epic. Fail.

    --
    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  3. clearly, maintaining that bandwidth costs nothing by skelterjohn · · Score: 1

    nt

  4. So much data by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 1

    That's a whole lot of data without very much actionable information.

    I'm not Google, nor am I an ISP. What do I care that Google's bandwidth costs are zero when I'm stuck with my pathetic broadband connection?

    It's not even interesting data. The graphs make the whole presentation worse. I felt like I was reading a grad student's thesis, and a really dry one at that.

    1. Re:So much data by commodore64_love · · Score: 0, Troll

      >>>I'm stuck with my pathetic broadband connection?

      Bah. Humbug. I only have 0.7 Mbit/s at my home, and 0.05 Mbit/s on my laptop during travel. You are pratically living in luxury compared to me.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    2. Re:So much data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm on 56k dialup, you insensitive clod!

    3. Re:So much data by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      .05 on your laptop? What are you using? Even edge is faster (double that), I thought?

    4. Re:So much data by drachenstern · · Score: 1

      What do I care that Google's bandwidth costs are zero when I'm stuck with my pathetic broadband connection?

      "Less than free". If they don't have to pay extra for peering then they can continue the LtF business model and can disrupt whole sectors of markets. This works out in our benefit more often than it hurts us. I for one prefer to see innovation over the same ole same ole.

      --
      2^3 * 31 * 647
    5. Re:So much data by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      It's not even interesting data. The graphs make the whole presentation worse. I felt like I was reading a grad student's thesis, and a really dry one at that.

      The graphs were lifted straight from the Web interface of the Arbor Networks product mentioned. It would have been nice and more professional to export the data and make some high resolution graphics instead and to provide more illuminating labels.

    6. Re:So much data by js_sebastian · · Score: 1

      That's a whole lot of data without very much actionable information.

      Do you seriously read slashdot looking for "actionable information"?

      Man! and I thought that reading throught the ENTIRE summary was badass!

    7. Re:So much data by omnichad · · Score: 4, Funny

      .05Mbps = 50kbps. Sound familiar? He means dial-up! I'll be here all week for simple math help.

    8. Re:So much data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless it's changed significantly since I last saw it a little over a year ago, those graphs are not lifted straight from the web interface.

    9. Re:So much data by perryizgr8 · · Score: 1

      i'm really, honestly not joking. i get 256Kbps at home over adsl. and i get ~3Mbps on my cell over 3g. thing is, the dsl is unlimited. but the cell is billed per kb at an exorbitant rate. so i try not to use it.

      --
      Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
    10. Re:So much data by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      Unless it's changed significantly since I last saw it a little over a year ago, those graphs are not lifted straight from the web interface.

      I haven't seen it in years, but they look exactly like what I recall. Maybe you're thinking of the enterprise product (Peakflow X) instead of the service provider product (Peakflow SP) which is mentioned?

    11. Re:So much data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or GSM GPRS/EDGE Data service. oops my PHS with 102kbps contract runs at up to 90k, I'm even richer than him!?!?!?
      time to move for WiMAX or 3.9G...maybe XGP with 20Mbps Uplink...

    12. Re:So much data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, I was thinking of SP, but now that I look at the graphs again I think I agree with you

  5. Except their network isn't free by Kagato · · Score: 1

    Sure, they are peering. But running one of the largest networks in the world isn't exactly cheap.

  6. So it's like when I got my Brother a new PC by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Informative

    "This Win7 PC cost $300. On the other hand I still owe you $299 for that RTF model airplane you gave me last month. How about we just call it even?" - me

    "Deal." - brother

    It sounds like Google and the ISPs have the same arrangement.

    --
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    1. Re:So it's like when I got my Brother a new PC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Peering.

    2. Re:So it's like when I got my Brother a new PC by delinear · · Score: 1

      So... am I missing something or doesn't this mean it's still costing them? Okay they're paying for it with a trade of services instead of money, but that's still bandwidth they could have sold elsewhere if they didn't have to worry about Youtube, so it's still effective cost them the amount that they offset with the ISPs, which could conceivably be close to the amount in the original report.

    3. Re:So it's like when I got my Brother a new PC by Bahumat · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The question is, though: To whom would they be selling those gobs of bandwidth? The nature of bandwidth, overall, remains geographically fixed; you can't sell (much) of your bandwidth capacity in the united states to a company in Japan; they still need the pipes going, overall, from Point A to Customer B.

      At the volumes in which they are dealing with, they don't really have a lot of customers who can conceivably use that much bandwidth. So it's definitely in their best interests to trade with them preferentially.

      If the options are A) Trade to defer costs, or B) Try to sell to others and discover nobody else wants to buy a tenth of our capacity, they'll usually find that A) is a smarter business decision.

      --
      "To pass through the jungle; silence, courtesy, ferocity, as the occasion demands." -- Kamau, "Proper Passage"
    4. Re:So it's like when I got my Brother a new PC by sopssa · · Score: 1

      Uh, did you forget that Google has datacenters all around the world and also reside in many IPX? Sure it might be peering between them, but because of that they can sell it too.

    5. Re:So it's like when I got my Brother a new PC by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      The question is, though: To whom would they be selling those gobs of bandwidth?

      The people who would be running a net bandwidth deficit on Google's lines if it werent for the youtube bandwidth being piped over theirs.

      Everyone else is not saying "sure google, no cost buddy! you rock!" .. they are saying "You seem to be sending us as much as we are sending you" .. remove youtube from the equation and its "holy crap we owe google a lot of money"

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
  7. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by serialband · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Google already ran the fiber for other purposes. So that cost was already planned for, well before they acquired YouTube. So, yes, it cost them nothing extra.

  8. Payments are not the only costs. by John+Hasler · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Owning and maintaining all that fiber is costing Google money. Even if they are not paying anything to other providers for handling YouTube traffic it is using bandwidth on their own fiber that they could otherwise sell or use for something else.

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    1. Re:Payments are not the only costs. by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      maintaining fiber? What do you think they have to actually maintain?

      There is nothing there or exceedingly minimal at most. They aren't "Renting" that fiber, they installed it themselves.

    2. Re:Payments are not the only costs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget how the depreciation and maintenance cost of the fiber erases some of their taxes that buying bandwidth wouldn't.

    3. Re:Payments are not the only costs. by delinear · · Score: 3, Funny

      maintaining fiber? What do you think they have to actually maintain?

      Don't they have to polish the ends to ensure faster data throughput?

    4. Re:Payments are not the only costs. by Blimey85 · · Score: 1

      This only matters once they reach capacity. If the bandwidth now being used by YouTube was otherwise going to be idle, then they would gain nothing by not using it. Since they already have the fiber in place, and since at least some of it is idle, and since AFAIK it doesn't cost any more to use bandwidth on the lines they already have, have paid for, and are already maintaining, I would think their cost should be very close to 0.

      --
      How is it that one careless match can start a forest fire, but it takes a whole box to start a campfire?
    5. Re:Payments are not the only costs. by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      Equipment costs money to maintain. People to service equipment costs money. People and equipment to oversee and administer the network costs money. If someone accidentally severs a line in the middle of nowhere, that costs money to fix. Fiber might cost less to maintain than other technologies but that doesn't mean the cost is 0.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    6. Re:Payments are not the only costs. by tibit · · Score: 1

      There is no something else if you suddenly remove Google's/YouTube's traffic from the pipes. There's no lost opportunity cost, since there'd be a whole lot of underutilized infrastructure all around the world if Google/YouTube traffic had vanished.

      It's not a zero-sum game. Without YouTube traffic, the sum decreases quite a bit, yet you still have all that infrastructure there's no use for.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    7. Re:Payments are not the only costs. by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      Clearly you've forgotten about the wear-and-tear cost of light...

    8. Re:Payments are not the only costs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have it on good authority that they are waxing their modem, trying to make it go faster.

    9. Re:Payments are not the only costs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They aren't "Renting" that fiber, they installed it themselves.

      I ate some 100% fiber cereal this morning. Believe me. I am just renting it.

    10. Re:Payments are not the only costs. by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 1

      nonetheless, bandwidth which tey could sell is potential money in, assuming that they can find a buyer. This arrangement guarantees no money out which they weren't going to spend anyway. To that extent, it's free.

      --
      FGD 135
    11. Re:Payments are not the only costs. by kseise · · Score: 2, Funny

      Don't they have to polish the ends to ensure faster data throughput?

      Not if they buy nice shiny Monster Cables.

    12. Re:Payments are not the only costs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This only matters once they reach capacity. If the bandwidth now being used by YouTube was otherwise going to be idle, then they would gain nothing by not using it. Since they already have the fiber in place, and since at least some of it is idle, and since AFAIK it doesn't cost any more to use bandwidth on the lines they already have, have paid for, and are already maintaining, I would think their cost should be very close to 0.

      I'd expect the average one-year maintenance cost of a run of fiber to be the following:

      integral(f(x)*g(x),x,a,b)

      where the interval [a,b] represents the span of the fiber, f(x) is the bdf (backhoe density function), the probability density that a backhoe will operate in the vicinity of a given point within the next year, and g(x) is the cost of sending a repair crew to that point.

    13. Re:Payments are not the only costs. by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      Are you assuming line servers are a constant maintenance fee? Although I'm sure over a year or something maybe you can calculate that out that's definitely nitpicking at best. The cost is near enough to zero that it can be considered negligible.

    14. Re:Payments are not the only costs. by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      Google does not "rent" their fiber network. They own the fiber network. As the owner, they have to maintain the network. Given the fact that the fiber network links their data centers from all over the world, physically the fiber network covers a huge area. Any and all equipment that monitors and maintains the network has a cost. Any and all personnel to maintain that network has a cost. If they merely rented the capacity from someone then their maintenance cost is nearly 0. But they didn't rent.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    15. Re:Payments are not the only costs. by treeves · · Score: 1

      No, no. A simple monthly photon flush followed by a restorative stream of conditioning green photons for about half an hour should keep things running optimally.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    16. Re:Payments are not the only costs. by hitmark · · Score: 1

      well, maybe not light, but what about sharks or excavators?

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    17. Re:Payments are not the only costs. by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      Just a FYI, this still doesn't mean they're actually paying for their fiber. It means they're paying for the maintenance.

      This is like the argument people make that nothing can be free. The argument is entirely circular. There may be extraneous costs, but that doesn't mean the free part didn't apply.

      Example: you give away mp3s. Was there a cost? Sure, maybe for transmission. But was the MP3 free? yes, it was. Is youtube's bandwidth free? Due to peering and everything else, yes, it very likely is.

  9. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by w00tsauce · · Score: 1

    Seriously. Switches cost nothing, neither do routers! Rack space? ha! Building datacenters? also free. Yup. Google may pay pennies on the dollar because they don't need to buy transit, they can just peer-but there will always be cost involved.It's the same with any industry-uninstall the middleman, and your price goes down. When google becomes the ISP and content host, Companies like level3, cogent become moot.

  10. Check out the Peering Chart from Arbor by miller60 · · Score: 4, Informative

    The Wired article is from last fall. Arbor's blog post this week by Labovitz has better information. The most interesting data is a chart showing how 60 percent of Google's traffic takes advantage of direct peering, up from 40 percent a year earlier. Given the volume of traffic, we're talking about, there's some meaningful economics in that change.

  11. Re:Vertical Integration by GargamelSpaceman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Suppose Google had all that stuff but not YouTube. It would be selling services to YouTube.

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    ...
  12. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by tabdelgawad · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's not so much the cost to run their own fiber (marginal cost), which could be very low. The relevant cost here is opportunity cost; they could be charging other content providers to use that fiber and the revenue they're giving up is the real cost of using it for their own content.

    There's a reason the concepts of scarcity and opportunity cost are introduced in the first lecture of every Econ 101 course that I know of. Too bad the concepts don't stick!

    --
    Imposing Libertarian views on everyone online since 1992.
  13. It still costs money to run. by argent · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If they weren't using it for Youtube they could leave it dark, saving power costs, or deferring future expenditures, or provide transit for other companies and receive income from them.

    1. Re:It still costs money to run. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Dark fiber isn't cost effective either.

    2. Re:It still costs money to run. by argent · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's a sunk cost, and leaving it dark is cheaper than lighting it up.

    3. Re:It still costs money to run. by denobug · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's a sunk cost, and leaving it dark is cheaper than lighting it up.

      Not if lighting it up means savings on other part of your operation.

    4. Re:It still costs money to run. by Custard+Horse · · Score: 1

      And if it's dark, it won't wear out. Net saving = infinity +1

    5. Re:It still costs money to run. by sjames · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, but if you can offset higher costs by lighting it up and get a return on the sunk costs, it would be silly to not do it.

      It's still proper (if over-simplified) to say that the bandwidth bill is zero, nobody's billing them for it and there's no meter.

    6. Re:It still costs money to run. by argent · · Score: 1

      Well, duh.

      I listed multiple options, of which leaving fiber dark was simply one of them.

      The bandwidth is costing them money one way or another. They could leave the fiber dark, they could resell the bandwidth to other companies, they could avoid additional capital costs on the future by using the fiber that they have allocated to Youtube. Allocating that resource to Youtube prevents them from allocating it in other ways, therefore that bandwidth IS costing them money.

    7. Re:It still costs money to run. by argent · · Score: 1

      Yes, but if you can offset higher costs by lighting it up and get a return on the sunk costs, it would be silly to not do it.

      Someone else who couldn't be arsed to follow the thread.

      I listed multiple options, of which leaving fiber dark was simply one of them. See here.

      The bottom line is they're paying for it one way or another. It's not free. Their bill is not zero.

    8. Re:It still costs money to run. by mjwx · · Score: 1

      If they weren't using it for Youtube they could leave it dark, saving power costs, or deferring future expenditures, or provide transit for other companies and receive income from them.

      Or they could use that fibre to transmit video along with content from another core business unit, something like advertising to make some money.

      Strange that they've never tried that before.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    9. Re:It still costs money to run. by sjames · · Score: 1

      Well, if we're going to list ALL the options sensible or not, they could dig it up and corner the jumprope market or grind it back to sand and sell it as the world's most advanced cat litter.

      Yes, you pointed it out as an option, and I pointed out that it wasn't a very good option for them. Note that it wouldn't be the first time a company chose that option, but most of them couldn't utilize it enough to justify lighting it up. Google certainly can, especially if it's being lit is also a strategic move (which it appears to be).

    10. Re:It still costs money to run. by argent · · Score: 1

      Yes, you pointed it out as an option

      I pointed out three options.

    11. Re:It still costs money to run. by sjames · · Score: 1

      There are FOUR LIGHTS!

  14. by that logic by circletimessquare · · Score: 3, Insightful

    because i don't ride in other people's cars, my car costs are zero

    except for car payments, financing, gasoline, repairs, insurance, inspection, registration, tolls, oil change...

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:by that logic by FluffyWithTeeth · · Score: 4, Insightful

      More accurately, this is like saying "I don't own a car, so my petrol costs are zero", and everyone in the comments going "But that doesn't include your bus tickets or the time you spend walking!", and completely missing the point.

    2. Re:by that logic by Anonymous+Monkey · · Score: 3, Insightful
      It's more like you own a truck, and you are driving accost town anyway, so your friend asks you to pick up a box and deliver it. Sure you had to burn a little more gas, and it took about fifteen minutes more, but it's your friend, and compared to what you were doing to start with it's not a big deal, aka 'free'.

      The same thing works with Google and YouTube. Compared to the whole cost of running Google, the cost of YouTube is little more than a rounding error, and odds are it is comfortably hosted in 'extra' space and run on 'extra' bandwidth that isn't needed right now, but has been paid for already, so it's basally 'free'.

      --
      We are the Borg...
    3. Re:by that logic by IorDMUX · · Score: 1

      I'd even take it to the next level:

      I own my own oil rig/refinery, so I never have to pay for gas!

      --
      >> Standing on head makes smile of frown, but rest of face also upside down.
    4. Re:by that logic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eggsactly, and because my car is free, I hate paying $1.50 for a bus fare.

    5. Re:by that logic by sweatyboatman · · Score: 1

      The same thing works with Google and YouTube. Compared to the whole cost of running Google, the cost of YouTube is little more than a rounding error, and odds are it is comfortably hosted in 'extra' space and run on 'extra' bandwidth that isn't needed right now, but has been paid for already, so it's basally 'free'

      The Credite Suise guys calculated that Youtube is pumping out 30 million megabits per second, and you think that's a rounding error for Google?

      The point of the article isn't that Youtube's bandwidth needs are so negligible they may as well be free (far from it).

      It's that because Google has its own fiber, it's able to barter with other ISPs in kind.

      So Google doesn't have to lay out cash to pay for the bandwidth it uses to stream dorky white kids covering R&B songs and people throwing their wii-mote into their LCD-TV.

      There's still an opportunity cost involved, since Google doesn't generate revenue on the bandwidth the other peers send through its lines, either.

      --
      It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
    6. Re:by that logic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not a truck you can just dump things on, it's a series of tubes!

    7. Re:by that logic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, it's less like a truck, and more like a series of tubes...

  15. It is NOT zero by C_Kode · · Score: 1

    The cost involved in laying fiber, maintaining it and the network itself is far from free.

    1. Re:It is NOT zero by General+Wesc · · Score: 1

      They didn't lay the fiber--they bought it. Before YouTube came into existence.

    2. Re:It is NOT zero by rjstanford · · Score: 1

      They didn't lay the fiber--they bought it. Before YouTube came into existence.

      Fine. Let me rephrase the GP: "The cost involved in buying fiber is far from free."

      --
      You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
    3. Re:It is NOT zero by denobug · · Score: 3, Informative

      They didn't lay the fiber--they bought it. Before YouTube came into existence.

      And they bought them with pennies on the dollar as well.

  16. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Epic. Fail.

    So why don't you write a book about it?

  17. Infrastructure costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So due to Google's infrastructure they are able to use peering agreements to not pay bandwidth costs directly. That same infrastructure has costs associated with building and maintaining it. So my question is, what portion of the infrastructure was built for other purposes and is maintained for other purposes? How much of the infrastructure is there, built and serving bandwidth merely for the same of maintaining these peering agreements? That portion is still costing money to serve youtube videos.

  18. P&L by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I guarantee you that what's on their P&L isn't zero. Even putting aside what the actual cash outlays are for laying and maintaining a fiber infrastructure, these swaps are going to be used to book both expense and revenue at a "market price."

    This is the same thing that the telcos (in particular Qwest) were doing in the 90s. They were doing it with dark fiber though, which is where it turned into actual straight up fraud.

  19. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by nicolas.kassis · · Score: 2, Insightful

    fiber cost don't go in the same column as bandwidth cost. Accounting solves it again.

  20. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

    "Bandwidth bill" != "infrastructure cost".

  21. This was shocking to me by floppyraid · · Score: 3, Interesting

    but the cost of routers and maintenance is nowhere near buying the bandwidth.

    Here are some pics of some of Googles hardware. These are a few years old. The power interface is entirely foreign to me.
    When I uploaded them to photobucket they were resized and I've since lost the originals, but, if you zoom in close enough you can see that the powersupply has a part number printed on it that includes the word 'GOOGLE', and, the ram also has chips that are individually labeled Google.
    Does anyone care to explain to me how it is possible that doing such a thing is more cost effective than just purchasing stuff already on the market in bulk? I've been wondering it for years after seeing this.
    http://s38.photobucket.com/albums/e149/drcollinsakatheman/randomjunk/1.jpg http://s38.photobucket.com/albums/e149/drcollinsakatheman/randomjunk/2.jpg http://s38.photobucket.com/albums/e149/drcollinsakatheman/randomjunk/3.jpg

    1. Re:This was shocking to me by amorsen · · Score: 3, Informative

      They probably did purchase stuff which is already on the market in bulk. They just asked for it to be labelled Google, so people would be less likely to steal it. Although it's rare to double-sided double height sticks these days -- they must have an awful lot of RAM in each server. Perhaps the modules are actually specially made for Google. I bet the chips themselves are bog standard apart from the label though.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    2. Re:This was shocking to me by tlhIngan · · Score: 3, Informative

      Here are some pics of some of Googles hardware. These are a few years old. The power interface is entirely foreign to me.
      When I uploaded them to photobucket they were resized and I've since lost the originals, but, if you zoom in close enough you can see that the powersupply has a part number printed on it that includes the word 'GOOGLE', and, the ram also has chips that are individually labeled Google.
      Does anyone care to explain to me how it is possible that doing such a thing is more cost effective than just purchasing stuff already on the market in bulk? I've been wondering it for years after seeing this.

      If you're willing to buy a LOT of stuff, parts manufacturers are willing ot customize. (The threshold for "lots" varies).

      Intel will sell you a custom spec'd chip if you wanted - only restrictions are it has to be based on a current production model. So if you want an i7 without 64-bit and VT, buy enough chips and Intel will provide it. Hell, if you're Google, they'll probably laser etch Google on it, too.

      Power supplies - ditto. Google uses a special arrangement too, so they're probably custom-made. Which is trivial for a power supply company (as they already have lines set up to do custom builds, since 99% of their business is custom power supplies for all sorts of devices).

      RAM - buy enough, and the manufacturer can do anything. Laptops often come with "custom" RAM from the OEM (usually just a label slapped on the stick). Given Google's order size, I'm sure the assembler can put GOogle on them. Heck, Apple got custom-manufactured RAM too (Mac Pro FB-DIMMs are custom made to have larger heatsinks).

      And yes, Google can order in bulk, but since few can supply the order directly, Google just buys direct - cut out some middlemen, and get customization ability.

      Heck, Google might get a custom motherboard too - sure it's based on an existing design, but configured to Google's specs.

    3. Re:This was shocking to me by smooth+wombat · · Score: 3, Funny

      Funny thing about your second pic is if you look at the label on the power supply(?) on the left side of the image, the tag reads:

      Safety Test Pending

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    4. Re:This was shocking to me by bhima · · Score: 1

      Google's servers have been much discussed... they are standard (but some things are not populated) and they have an on board battery to act as a UPS.

      http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-10209580-92.html

      --
      Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
    5. Re:This was shocking to me by sopssa · · Score: 1

      Maybe Google servers as in search, but I think YouTube needs different kind of build as they're delivering massive amount of video content instead of doing database queries. I suspect the article is about Google's search servers.

    6. Re:This was shocking to me by CheeseTroll · · Score: 5, Funny

      So, even their power supplies are in perpetual beta!

      --
      A post a day keeps productivity at bay.
    7. Re:This was shocking to me by sjames · · Score: 3, Insightful

      When you have as many servers as google, the bulk order is big enough to go direct to the manufacturer skipping all the middle men (and their markups).

    8. Re:This was shocking to me by shoppa · · Score: 2, Informative

      Power supply chassis delivers 13.65VDC. It charges the lead acid batteries you see off to the side. Motherboard has switching converters that go straight from battery voltage to 3.3V/5V/12V, and whatever volts the CPU takes (1.65V?).

      The motherboard in the system you picture is a variant of a Gigabyte GA-9IVDP. I think that system design is at least a few years old now, it wouldn't surprise me if some Google plants still have a buttload of them, but the design is continually evolving to use whatever commodity parts can be found cheap enough or in higher performance.

      Think about the above: you don't need no stinkin UPS. Everything is about performance per dollar (where dollar includes power and physical plant costs too).

      General opinion of the hardware hackers is that the power supply is expected to outlast several generations of server hardware, it might look like the power supply was kinda strapped to the motherboard plate, but really the motherboard plate is strapped onto the power supply!

      Tim.

    9. Re:This was shocking to me by phatsphere · · Score: 2, Informative

      somewhere is a rather long explanation about their hardware - on youtube ^^ gigabyte built customized mainboards for them. optimized for speed, and either a lot of ram or a lot of harddisks - and no graphics, sound or other silly things. they do UPS right on the board (top boxes in picture 2) and yes, i think it's cheaper. they might fail more often, but they can repair and reuse them!! everything is their hands and they have full control!

    10. Re:This was shocking to me by kenh · · Score: 1

      Does anyone care to explain to me how it is possible that doing such a thing is more cost effective than just purchasing stuff already on the market in bulk? I've been wondering it for years after seeing this.

      Really?

      Buying in Qty affords the buyer the ability to customize the items.

      As I recall from a presentation about the servers at Google, while they are based on off-the-shelf items, most elements are customized - for example, the power supplies are built to runn of DC, simplifying the design and lowere electrical costs. They specify MB with very few on-board options, emphasising processor and RAM capacity, but ignoring USB, video, sound, other things usually included in consumer MBs.

      Here is a link to an article on what appears to be the same generation "google server" your photos show - the text describes design choices made to produce highly-efficient compute clusters:

      http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-10209580-92.html

      --
      Ken
    11. Re:This was shocking to me by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      The connectors on that power supply look the same as EPS12V connectors to me. I've seen motherboards that use 12V only power for sale before (e.g. the intel S5500WB12V which seems to use a setup very similar to the one in that picture with two EPS12v style connectors and a seperate control wire with thinner cores). It does clear up the wiring vs having all those wires for legacy rails.

      The custom PSU seems to be part of supporting their system of batteries with the boards rather than large centralised UPS systems. They also seem to be using an open frame design for better cooling.

      I'd guess the google labels on the chips are to deter theft. If you bulk buy I doubt a different label costs much.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    12. Re:This was shocking to me by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      IIRC google designs arround the "losing an individual server is no big deal" principle.

      You can see this in the design of the machine pictured. Non-redundant power supply with local batteries means the chance of losing an individual node to power problems is probablly a bit higher than normal but the chance of losing a whole load at once is probablly lower.

      This contrasts sharply with the more traditional model where it only takes a few servers in the wrong places to go down together and you have MAJOR problems.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  22. Buying rather than leasing costs money. by 91degrees · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Almost all companies lease their offices. They could buy them and save rent. It would possibly be cheaper. They don;t though. They don't want all that capital tied up in property. They can use it for business expansion instead.

    So Google owns a bunch of fibre. This has a capital cost. That's money that could have been invested somewhere else, so it's not free. They could have leased the fibre from a third party. Presumably they worked out that it would be cheaper not to do this. They could probably have saved money by leasing bandwidth from a third party. The third party would then be able to amortise the costs over several customers if there's surplus bandwidth. Having capital tied up like this isn't "free".

    1. Re:Buying rather than leasing costs money. by Demonantis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You are correct on so many levels then wrong on so many others. Every company has to pay to maintain their own network. It just happens that Google's network is massive and goes across the country as they share huge amounts of information between data centers. It costs them significant money to maintain, but hey every company has to do that at least in their buildings. Now when they want to hookup to the internet, like most other companies they should have to pay their provider(s) for the connections. They don't though because they can sell or contract out the extra bandwidth they have to their providers reducing their costs to connect to the internet to zero. Not the infrastructure costs.

      It is like there are two parts to Google the tier 1 ISPs and the data center company. With a company like this the risk of running out of bandwidth budget is huge so it is safer for them to have a contract that in effect gives them unlimited bandwidth when they need it. Even if it does cost them more in the end then using providers for each site.

    2. Re:Buying rather than leasing costs money. by d1r3lnd · · Score: 1

      Yes, most companies lease their offices. I would imagine, though, that commercial real estate agencies might own their own offices. Similarly, when I go fishing, I don't buy a boat - but my guess is that most fishermen own theirs. If you're not seeing where I'm going with this, you may want to consider the industry that Google is in, and why having the physical infrastructure of an internet service provider might be of use to a company that provides services over the internet. Why would they want to lease their bandwidth? Spending money on fiber isn't preventing them from business expansion - it IS business expansion. That's what makes YouTube so cheap for Google to operate.

    3. Re:Buying rather than leasing costs money. by denobug · · Score: 1

      Almost all companies lease their offices. They could buy them and save rent. It would possibly be cheaper. They don;t though. They don't want all that capital tied up in property. They can use it for business expansion instead.

      Mega corporations like Intel, Microsoft, ang Google with significant real estate needs do not lease their main campuses. They buy them and build them out the way they see fit. It also comes with local government incentives so it makes a lot of sense actually for them to own instead of to lease. Occassionally they sell the properties (like HP did) but in general they still own then property. Same goes for Walmart. I cannot recall a single store now in United States where Walmart does not own the property or the properties being held by subsidiaries or very close affiliates (i.e. Walmart owns shares of the company significantly enough to keep them from screwing with Walmart). In fact I have seen signs of "Walmart Realty" signs pop-up before.

      I am sure a few satellite office for their regional sales, etc. are on lease but they are more of the exceptions than the rule for those companies.

    4. Re:Buying rather than leasing costs money. by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      Yet, Google still doesn't pay much, if anything, to send data across another company's fiber.

      Maintaining their own shit has absolutely nothing at all to do with whether or not it costs them money to send data across another person's lines.

      The trade agreements basically say "I maintain my shit, you maintain your shit, and you can send all the data you want over my lines, and I can send all the data I want over your lines."

      Value is gained on both sides, something is traded, yet it costs neither of them a dime to send the data on someone else's lines.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    5. Re:Buying rather than leasing costs money. by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      I would imagine, though, that commercial real estate agencies might own their own offices.

      No. The letting company might though.

      but my guess is that most fishermen own theirs.

      I don't know about that. Airlines typically lease their aircraft though.

      you may want to consider the industry that Google is in, and why having the physical infrastructure of an internet service provider might be of use to a company that provides services over the internet.

      They're not in the network industry. They're in the service provision industry. The network is simply a cost. If it's a capital cost or a running (i.e. lease) cost it's still a cost. I'm not disputing Google's decision. They presumably have accountants who have worked all this out. Just pointing out that the accountants would have factored in the capital cost as equivalent to running costs.

    6. Re:Buying rather than leasing costs money. by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      Yes, Google could have essentially the same effect (apart from the extra administrative overhead) if they set up a company called "Google Fiber", and leased the network to Google.com. But "Google Fiber" would essentially have considerable debts that would need to be recovered. Now, they'd have borrowed the money from Google.com, rather than a bank because Google.com has lots of money, but Google could have loaned that money to someone else. The cost of running the network is essentially the amount they could have gained from using the money for some other purpose. Capital doesn't just sit in the bank if it isn't being used.

      No doubt the cost of leasing would be greater than the return they could have made on this money otherwise, which is why Google invested this money. It doesn't make the bandwidth "free" though.

    7. Re:Buying rather than leasing costs money. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also more compianies would buy there buildings if it were not for the coperate tax sturctutors that make it more affordable to lease the building which is a great way to keep land owners happy (LandLord wealthfare you could call it, So buy commericial realistate ). Keep in mind that most commericial rentals have all maintance done by the renter. Another reason most compains rent is also because it makes more sense to use startup capital to buy equiment or being able keep the business running for a few months extra until it starts to make money, however a wise business person would put in the ablity to buy the building at the end of the lease period. I however pefer buying the reasons being 1. Plan to be in business for a long time but don't see expanding beyound my current building, have extra space right now. If I shrink I can rent out part of the ground too. 2. When I retire I will own a building that I could sell or lease out for income even if no one wants to buy the business itself. If they buy the business they may still want to lease the ground. 3. Don't need to sign a long term lease or worry about my landlord seeing how sucessful my business is and trying to jack up the rent on me. Yes, I have seen it happen. Also if your business has a good location others might be will to offer a higher lease causing your landlord to drop you or have you make up the difference. 4. Higher up front costd then renting when including tax however I will have capital to draw on in the future. I could maybe lease the ground to my business and reap the tax benefits but it's a bit of paper work and requires 2 companies and more understading of the law to make sure that it really it legal or done legally.

    8. Re:Buying rather than leasing costs money. by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      Does it cost anyone anything to send data over everyone else's lines? I thought this was the principle of the entire internet.

    9. Re:Buying rather than leasing costs money. by JSBiff · · Score: 1

      "They don't want all that capital tied up in property."

      I suppose that depends. If a company is large enough that it has the money it needs to both expand the business, *and* buy the buildings/land it occupies, then it probably makes sense to buy. Why? Because, in the end, when you rent/lease, you are still paying the mortgage, taxes, and upkeep. It's just that you pay the money in the form of monthly (or quarterly, whatever) rent checks you pay to your landlord. Whether you call your monthly payment a 'lease' or a 'mortgage', you're still making payments for the space you use. Shouldn't you at least be building up some equity in the property?

      If, on the other hand, you are a startup or small business, I'm sure it often makes sense to rent or lease for a number of reasons. . . the 'upfront' costs are probably lower. The amount you pay per month may be lower. Particularly if you are using only a small portion of an office/retail building which is sectioned up and rented out to multiple different businesses (analogous to apartments for personal housing).

      But, once you have enough income to both grow and pay for a building, it very much does make sense to own, just like for individuals, it usually does make sense to own a house or condo rather than to rent the house/apartment (although, when you are going to college, or have just graduated, it usually makes sense to rent, because you don't have enough money saved for a downpayment and closing costs).

    10. Re:Buying rather than leasing costs money. by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      Beside the point though.

      The point is that buying has a cost, not that the cost is never worth it.

    11. Re:Buying rather than leasing costs money. by mini+me · · Score: 1

      While property is technically an asset, as long as you need a place to live/work, it is a sunk cost. Unless you decide to live/work on the street in the future, you are never going to see that money again for the life you/your business.

      Looking at the commercial property database in my locale, the average small business would be looking around the $400-500,000 range to purchase an office building suitable for a company of that size. $500,000 to a small business is the difference between making the proper acquisitions and becoming the next Google, or staying small forever.

      For the homeowner, the money tied up in a home is the difference between making the right investments to build the next Google, or being stuck in a 9-5 job for the rest of life.

      So, while I do not disagree that property ownership probably is cheaper in the long run, it seems to me that the opportunity to use that money to build real wealth is lost when purchasing a home/office. Maybe if you are someone like Google you are making so much money that you could not possibly spend it all. Buying property makes sense in that case. But most people and businesses are not anywhere close to being Google.

    12. Re:Buying rather than leasing costs money. by JSBiff · · Score: 1

      I don't completely disagree with you. I mean, for one thing, if a startup had, say $1 Million in startup cash from a venture capitalist or something similar, it wouldn't be a good idea to immediately drop half of it on an office building. However, if they took out a mortgage on an office building, they might only spend something $50,000 the first year (the down-payment and closing costs being more expensive in the first year), then maybe $35,000/year after that (the numbers are, somewhat made up, but not completely - I did some 'back of the napkin' estimates: figuring that a $500,000 loan will cost you, over the course of a 20 year mortgage, around $750,000 - unless you pay it off early, which isn't a bad idea). A lease isn't usually significantly cheaper than a mortgage, although there's no downpayment, or closing costs. So maybe to lease comparable space, the same startup might pay something like $30,000/yr (including the first year).

      After 10 or 15 years, the company that bought has built up a lot of equity. The company that has leased for all those years has spent the money and can never see it again. Assuming the lease ran you $30,000/yr, then after 10 years, you've spent 300,000 and have no equity. Meanwhile, the company that bought might have spent $390,000, but might have $250,000 in equity. Meanwhile, the property has been appreciating in value.

      Now, the company decides to move to a larger property. The company that sells, after paying off their original mortgage, might have between $250,000 - $300,000 to put towards the downpayment on a much larger, more expensive property.

      Where is the virtue in sending lease checks to a property owner who gets to build their equity at your expense? I'm just really not seeing it - unless you plan to move to other facilities every 2-3 years because of your amazingly rapid expansion. Then, I would totally agree with you - the first 2-3 years of any mortgage is mostly losses due to interest and closing costs, anyhow, so if you will be moving frequently, then yes, buying is probably a bad idea.

  23. It also points out the folly by tkrotchko · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It points out the folly when people say "Comcast/AT&T/Verizon/whomever has to pay huge upstream bandwidth costs, bandwidth isn't free y'know!", and it always gets marked as insightful.

    These guys are so large, bandwidth, other than physical maintenance of their physical plant, isn't a big part of their expenses. When Comcast says "We need to limit bandwidth because of those evil hackers", that's code for "I don't feel like rolling out DOCIS 3 for a few years". When AT&T Mobile says "Those iPhone users are sucking up all the bandwidth so we have to limit you", that's code for "We dont' want to upgrade our cell towers".

    People still have this picture in mind of a tier-1 provider asking their local LEC to run a couple DS-3's over to their data center. It's such a 1992 view of how ISPs actually work.

    --
    You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
    1. Re:It also points out the folly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      But physical maintenance will be a large part of where bandwidth costs derive from surely? There's no law of physics that says bandwidth costs money - its the hardware, maintenance, and salaries of the people who purchase/maintain it that give rise to the costs. So bandwidth isn't free to Google in exactly the same way it isn't free to the home user - it's just that the user never sees the cost breakdown.

    2. Re:It also points out the folly by gknoy · · Score: 1

      I was going to ask you for a better explanation of How Peering Works, but I'll go read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peering instead. I may have more questions: if you can give a better layman's explanation than Wikipedia, I expect you'd get some upmods. :D

    3. Re:It also points out the folly by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It points out the folly when people say "Comcast/AT&T/Verizon/whomever has to pay huge upstream bandwidth costs, bandwidth isn't free y'know!", and it always gets marked as insightful. These guys are so large, bandwidth, other than physical maintenance of their physical plant, isn't a big part of their expenses.

      The problem with this argument is that these guys' physical maintenance bills are significantly higher than most everybody else's. We may quibble whether this counts as an upstream bandwidth cost; it's upstream from the customer, but not from the ISP. But even in the second case, strictly speaking, peering is basically buying some of somebody else's bandwidth and paying not with money, but with some of your own bandwidth. But you still have the costs incurrent in delivering that "payment."

    4. Re:It also points out the folly by noidentity · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, if we ignore the cost of running Comcast, their bandwidth is virtually free. After all, even if they stopped using bandwidth, the cost of keeping everything running wouldn't go down much, therefore the bandwidth costs almost nothing.

    5. Re:It also points out the folly by hhw · · Score: 1

      Right. Comcast has to pay their upstreams (although probably very little per Mb), but AT&T and Verizon (MCI) operate Tier 1 networks, so they are the upstreams. No transit necessary, as per the definition of Tier 1.

      --
      http://astutehosting.com/
    6. Re:It also points out the folly by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      Not that I really disagree with you, but to be accurate Comcast isn't a Tier 1...

      Still, they do own their own fiber backbone, so any traffic staying on Comcast's network is definitely very cheap for them. And in any case, as you said, the current bottleneck in most cases is their obsolete or oversubscribed headends, not their backbone or peering points.

    7. Re:It also points out the folly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But the salaries aren‘t going to go up that much except for training costs because your headcount is governed by the number of cell towers that have to be maintained. You aren‘t going to significantly increase the number of towers in an area to increase bandwidth because unless you decrease the transmission power, you‘re just going to get more overlap and interference between the towers. You mainly increase the number of towers when you increase the geographical coverage. The hardware upgrade is going to be a factor, but as someone pointed out, the fibre is already laid so you‘re only needing to upgrade the routers and repeaters when you increase the bandwidth. While that‘s not chicken feed, overall it‘s not as bad as your post implies, especially since you can probably reuse some of the hardware. For instance buy fast new routers and repeaters for your bandwidth-hungry areas, but re-use what you‘ve taken out by placing it in areas of coverage expansion where the demand isn‘t as high.

    8. Re:It also points out the folly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, yes, but it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Those represent relatively fixed cost to the ISP (again, not really, but close enough for this discussion). Verizon has their backbone, and they peer with networks of equal size, probably little or no transit costs. The expense occurs when the peering occurs; there is really no concept of "running out of bandwidth" except perhaps at the routers at the edge of the network. My router is too small, I need more sonet cards (or whatever) that represents a one-time cost, but I don't need more people to maintain that network.

      And if you get to the point where you need more people it's probably based on your customers, not the bandwidth they use.

  24. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by jittles · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You guys are looking at this from a completely different angle than a business person would. Google has that fiber REGARDLESS of YouTube's existence. It has that fiber to run its core business, advertising. Therefore the cost of maintaining the fiber is a cost to Google's advertising business. Furthermore, the cost of laying the fiber has (likely) already been paid and is no longer considered a cost but a capital investment.

    Therefore, since the YouTube division is not paying for the fiber to be laid and is not paying for the fiber to be maintained, YouTube could have $0 bandwidth cost to Google.

  25. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by jittles · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Sorry to reply to myself but there is only an opportunity cost in using this bandwidth if the bandwidth would otherwise be used. If they are not at capacity along their fiber then there should be no opportunity cost either.

  26. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cogent already is moot for folks that want quality bandwidth. :-)

  27. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    None of these have anything to do with the bandwidth bill.

  28. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by Rich0 · · Score: 1

    Do you think they would have run all that fiber if they weren't expecting to host a lot of bandwidth-intensive services?

    In any case, they're paying for the service. If I own a trash company and give somebody free trash delivery in exchange for free doctor's visits that doesn't mean that my doctor's visits didn't cost me something.

  29. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

    So... they diverted capacity from non-YouTube use to YouTube use?

    OK, genius. Did they then:

    1. Pay more to lay and maintain extra fiber to support those other activities?
    2. Abandon those activities and give up the revenue?

    Y'all wouldn't be an economist by any chance?

    --
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  30. Which is the whole reason for peering by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    More or less in a peering situation, each provider agrees to cover their own costs. This includes laying the fiber, buying the high end routers needed for it, powering and maintaining all that, having the staff to handle problems, etc. Since each side is paying their own costs, and both have roughly equal amounts of data the other wants, it makes sense not to charge each other.

    This is also why you do have to pay when you aren't one of the big guys. Your cable modem connection to your house you don't directly pay any of the costs other than perhaps buying the equipment needed to hook up. Everything else is handled by someone else. As such, they want money for it. It isn't as though all the equipment and effort that goes to making the HFC network operate costs nothing. Also they often have to pay for at least some of their transit.

    At any rate, peering is basically a case where you want to trade data with someone, but each of you is maintaining your own part of it equally. As such you don't pay each other.

    It isn't only done at the high levels either, sometimes smaller groups will peer. Your ISP might peer with another ISP in town, a university might peer with other universities (they actually do this, it's called Internet 2) and so on.

  31. Opportunity Cost by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If ISPs are willing to give Google half a billion dollars a year of traffic in exchange for Google giving them some equivalent value of traffic on its own fiber, we should at least consider the possibility that Google could otherwise sell that traffic. Our best guess for the opportunity cost might still be half a billion dollars.

    --
    "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
    1. Re:Opportunity Cost by Pollardito · · Score: 1

      I think there's some value in being the source of 10% of the traffic that the ISP's customers want, and that value is higher the higher the percentage you are. If google weren't also controlling youtube, they might not be getting enough traffic that the ISPs would bargain with them on peering rates as an equal partner. An ISP could be more free to say "our customers could just move to Yahoo or MSN if they couldn't get to Google on our network, so you have to pay us X to peer with you" where it might be more difficult for them to say that "our customers can get to another search engine AND another video website"

      I think this is what Google meant when they posted "We are at a point where growth is definitely good for our bottom line, not bad."

  32. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

    Whoosh.

    True, but irrelevant, unless you're an accuntant or economental. If I run a shop that trades spare left shoes for spare right shoes, I don't come out even, I'm down the cost of running the shop.

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  33. tore up street eight times in 1990s to add fiber by peter303 · · Score: 1

    The telcom companies seemed to have the street in my office park in a perpetual state of construction during the dot.com boom. First we'd see all the different paint mark symbols from the utilities and previous fiber. Then came the new digging. There must be a ton of dark stuff still around.

  34. Compare it to a new desktop. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They can put the network at your desk for not "much" -- now, the network _really_ is the computer.

    As M$ heavily depends on a computer-maker+them ecology, this makes for somber news...

    On the bright side, Ballmer can start a fiber deployment company and finally deliver his promise of burying Google. LOL.

  35. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by boaworm · · Score: 1

    With an equally poor logic, if you hire a developer to work on project A, that person can also work in parallel on project B, because it doesn't cost anything!

    The "cost" of course has to be divided up based on usage. And if they had excess bandwidth they didn't need (because youtube ate so much of what they would otherwise have), they could have sold it to someone else, making money on it. Money they are now losing.

    GP is correct, the conclusion is crap.They may be saving a lot of money, but that's a whole different story.

    --
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    Aristotele
  36. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The summary says they are paying for their use of other networks by trading bandwidth on their own network. So if they didn't need all that bandwidth for YouTube, they could be selling their bandwidth instead of trading it. There's definitely opportunity cost there.

  37. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

    You're right, I'm looking at it from the angle of someone with half a brain.

    Capital investment is not free. Laying fiber is not free. But let's pretend that we're retarded, and ignore that just for the moment. Maybe magic pixies laid it for them.

    Maintaining fiber is not free. Cables get cut, hardware fails, you have to pay for electricity, and for people to maintain it. You think that's free? You don't want to pay? Fine, your hardware fails, your power gets shut off, your admins go to work for AT&T. Kiss your business goodbye.

    Regardless of whether Google can trade bits 1-for-1 at the edge of their network, they still have to pay extra to maintain the capacity to perform that zero-benefit trade. Trading 1-for-1 is not free.

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    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  38. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by sopssa · · Score: 1

    But in that case it's better for you than not getting the free doctor's visit, which is the whole point. The whole article is talking about bandwidth specifically, not the whole infrastructure costs.

  39. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by sopssa · · Score: 1

    Read the title of the story. We are talking about bandwidth, not what it costs to run the whole YouTube.

  40. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, I think Google bought up a lot of fiber instead of running their own. I remember some news articles from several years ago talking about Google buying up dark fiber on the cheap after the dot com bubble burst. The speculation was that Google might get into the ISP business.

  41. It's all about the peering agreements by RingDev · · Score: 1

    I don't think that's quite it. The deal here (as best as I can tell) is that Google is sharing their pipes with other providers, making a peering agreement. Google doesn't own pipes all the way to your house, so they have to pay other providers to take the huge amount of traffic coming from their pipes and continue the journey. If Google had no pipes what so ever, they would have to pay for every single bit they send out.

    But Google does have pipes, they bought up huge swaths of that dark fiber that was getting rolled out in the .Com bubble only to lie dormant. So when they work out their peering agreements, instead of paying cash for every bit, they can offer bandwidth instead.

    So Google says "We're going to send out 1 terabyte of data per hour, and we have the bandwidth to accept 10 terabytes back." And some other peer comes along and says "We can take .5 terabytes from you if you can take .5 terabytes from us" and so on. Until Google has enough peers that they can move all of the data they want to.

    This example is simplified to a point of silliness, but hopefully you get the idea. The "near zero costs" aren't implying that Google doesn't have to pay for maintaining it's own network, but that they don't have to pay cash to other providers to take the traffic from YouTube.

    --
    "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
  42. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by Chris+Pimlott · · Score: 3, Informative

    Once again, the Slashdot title has got it wrong. TFA doesn't say that Google's overall cost for bandwidth is zero, simply that their transit costs are near zero, which specifically refers money paid to a network provider to carry your traffic.

  43. I don't get it by sweatyboatman · · Score: 2, Informative

    More accurately, this is like saying "I don't own a car, so my petrol costs are zero"

    how was this modded up? it's because he makes fun of the parent isn't it. but that metaphor doesn't work at all.

    neither the parent do anything to illuminate the article, both seem to be confused.

    and they're both modded +5 Insightful.

    --
    It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
    1. Re:I don't get it by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      It's called an analogy.

      From the Free Online Dictionary:

      analogy (-nl-j)
      n. pl. analogies
      1.
      a. Similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar.
      b. A comparison based on such similarity

      It is used to illuminate the similarities between two items. What the Parent was saying was that the Grand Parent's analogy was inaccurate - he was comparing apples and oranges, so to speak (another analogy).

      See how it works? He wasn't making fun of anybody, he was making a better analogy, and was modded up for it.

      In this case, Google does not pay for bandwidth traffic across other provider's networks. That's the point of the summary and the article. Saying they pay for the upkeep costs of their own fiber (no shit) does not in any way have anything to do with the fact that they pay virtually nothing when they send traffic across another ISP's lines (which ordinarily they would, that's why you have an internet bill).

      A more accurate analogy than both, but is kinda weird as a car analogy, is to say: "I don't pay for gas when I use my neighbor's car, because I pay for the gas in my car whether he uses my car or not. I only buy gas for my own car."

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    2. Re:I don't get it by greed · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How about, I've got a subcompact that's easy to drive into town and park, and my neighbour has a pick-up truck that's great for hauling stuff from the garden store and lumber yard.

      When my neighbour borrows my car to go into town, I don't charge him gas. In return, though, he lets me borrow his truck to go to the lumber yard, and he doesn't charge me for gas. Some months I do a lot of gardening and use a bit more of his gas. Other months he has a lot of paperwork to file in town and uses a bit more of my gas. But it's not worth fighting over, and we solve it by bring beer to each other's backyard BBQ parties.

      That's what peering is all about: I send my data on your network in return for you sending your data on my network. Since the amounts of data are nearly equal, any work spent to figure out exactly how much is an expense to both our businesses. If, instead, we just use a share-and-share-alike agreement, we each maintain our own plant, but are both better for being able to use the two networks instead of just one.

      Hmmmm... aren't a couple of Jigoro Kano's (founder of Judo) favourite phrases (translated) "Maximum efficient use of power" and "mutual welfare and benefit"? Of course, with peering, both networks win.

    3. Re:I don't get it by sweatyboatman · · Score: 1

      my point being that both analogies are wrong. which clouds the conversation with bad data and should not be rewarded.

      google is not "taking the bus", google owns its own "bus lines"

      nor is google "not riding in other people's cars",
      google is explicitly "riding in other people's cars" and in exchange the other people get to "ride in google's car" when they need to.

      greed, replied to your message below with an appropriate analogy.

      --
      It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
    4. Re:I don't get it by sweatyboatman · · Score: 1

      a car metaphor that makes sense, it can be done!

      plus you tossed in some irrelevant, but interesting, Judo information.

      +1 in fake mod-points to you!

      --
      It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
  44. Telecom Company Spin by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

    I can hear the telecom companies gearing up to spin this already. They're fond of claiming that Google "steals" their bandwidth and that they need to be able to charge Google for the "privilege" of getting access to the Telecom's users. (Of course, one wonders if the telecoms would be willing to pay Google for the "privilege" of their users being able to access Google's services.) I can just see them spinning the "Google maintains such a big network that they offset bandwidth costs via peering arrangements" into "Google doesn't pay anything for their bandwidth and just steals our bandwidth! WAH! WAH! WAH!"

    --
    My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  45. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by archangel9 · · Score: 1

    unless you're an accuntant or economental.

    I must remember that one during our next finance meeting.

  46. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  47. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by archangel9 · · Score: 1

    Capital investment may not be free, but it's off the books in a 36-month amortization schedule.

  48. Chicken and the Egg by denobug · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is what I am hearing:

    One person says Google's bill is zero, because they run the infrastructure themselves.

    Another person says Google's bill is not zero because they have to maintain the network.

    It's all about perspectives: Do you count internal cost or not in the discussion. Obviously it cost "something" for the infrstructure. Is it a fixed cost internally which can be minimized and absorbed or is it an external bill which can increase significanly as the business expands.

    I think the point of the article is to debunk inaccurate speculations from traders who have no technical and real commercial knowledge who may be trying to trash Google's stock for short gain. Not necessarily figure out how many Washingtons Google has to shell out.

    Then again, where would be the fun of slashdot if we can't go back and forth on the chicken-and-the-edd argument...

    1. Re:Chicken and the Egg by sopssa · · Score: 1

      But like even the title of the story says, we are talking about bandwidth. That doesn't include infrastructure cost. Just bandwidth which, if Google indeed does peer (and not transit) with all of their network partners, are somewhat zero. Infrastructure costs are an another matter (and would still be there, as YouTube and Google would need to run their network nevertheless)

    2. Re:Chicken and the Egg by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      Right the take away here is not the Googles costs are low, high, or otherwise; but that they have lots of control and plently of levers to move others. One of the biggest being they are for practical perpouses a top teir carrier themeselves.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    3. Re:Chicken and the Egg by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Note also that in between free peering and transit you have "paid peering". This can be useful to a company that exchanges a lot of traffic with a particular ISP but isn't large enough to get free peering from them.

      I suspect that companies like google have a fair bit of paid peering in thier internet connection portfolio.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  49. Correct me if I'm wrong, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wasn't the fact that it would cost Google a lot of bandwidth, one of the main reasons why they couldn't adopt vorbis/theora in Youtube? If true, this kind of blows a whole in that argument ..

  50. Luckily by kenh · · Score: 2, Informative

    Luckily, Google's fiber infrastructure is "free" - they don't pay for right of way, to maintain the connections,oversee the network, etc...

    These really silly interpretations of "analysis" by financial folks is pretty amusing, actually - I suspect the report actually said something like "ignoring the deployment and on-going costs of their infrastructure Google has essentially free internet access"...

    Do they think fiber, routers, switches, networking professionals, and right-of-ways are "free"?

    --
    Ken
  51. I work for one of your named ISPs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and I can assure you they don't pay $0

  52. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

    You know, in some English towns, it's legal to kill an accountant if you find him within the walls between sunset and sunrise. I may be thinking of Scotsmen, or vampires, but I think you get my drift.

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  53. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by jittles · · Score: 1

    But that's my point. The capital investment is already made! It's therefore no longer considered a cost, but an asset. Yes they have to perform maintenance but they are maintaining it regardless of YouTube. They are maintaining it for Google's core business.

    Perhaps you think its a retarded way to look at the situation but that's exactly how an accountant would look at it.

  54. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1
    The whole point of the article is that the bandwidth *itself* has no cost. It's not irrelevant when you consider that most companies are paying by bandwidth usage and not a flat connection rate like a home user will.

    No matter how much or little bandwidth they use, operational and infrastructure costs remains fixed.

    If I run a shop that trades spare left shoes for spare right shoes, I don't come out even, I'm down the cost of running the shop.

    But we're not talking about a trade that disadvantages either or both parties. Capacity is X. Usage is Y. While Y < X, cost remains fixed for both parties. By trading what would otherwise be unused capacity in both directions, both parties are spending less than paying each other for the same thing on a usage basis. If the capacity would *not* otherwise be unused, it becomes a different story.

  55. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by yankeessuck · · Score: 1

    Yeah, there's maintenance and operational expense and upgrade capex but, at their scale, that still should be a whole lot cheaper than having no internal capacity and buying bandwidth externally. Also, assuming their fiber is shared with other Google businesses, Youtube will only be allocated a percentage of aforementioned costs.

  56. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The thing you all are forgetting is that Google didn't run this fiber. Back during the Dot-Com bubble, there were several small companies (and large companies) running fiber everywhere. When the bubble burst, Google was able to come in and buy this fiber from the now bankrupt small companies for pennies on the dollar. The larger companies were even looking to sell the fiber for a reduced cost to try and regain some of the cost associated with running it. So yes, Google did have to pay for this fiber, but it was at a fraction of the cost of what it costs to actually run fiber in large cities.

  57. They're significantly fungible by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

    "Bandwidth bill" != "infrastructure cost".

    No, but they're significantly fungible; if you pay enough for infrastructure costs, then you can use it to reduce your third party bandwidth bill, either by simply routing traffic through your own network, or by trading your bandwidth for theirs. Which is why the "zero bandwidth bill" claim is disingenuous if true.

  58. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by evilviper · · Score: 2, Informative

    Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to run!

    Carefully read the TITLE of article... Staring at you from the browser toolbar right now. Take note that it DOESN'T say Google's Bandwidth Bill May be Zero. "Google" isn't in there at all.

    But you might just see YouTube in there...

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  59. Bandwith and theora by quantic_oscillation7 · · Score: 0

    so the bandwith vs theora doesn't make any sense?!!!

  60. Anonymous Coward. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You just figured that out NOW?
    It has been years.......

  61. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by mini+me · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But it is not like bandwidth itself costs money. It is always the infrastructure that you are paying for. You can either outsource network building and maintenance to a third party, or you can do it yourself.

    It is no different than Google having lawyers and accountants on staff, while smaller companies only hire those people when needed. It is more cost effective for the smaller businesses to only pay for what they use, but larger companies are not bound by those same limitations. I am sure that Youtube does not pay any lawyer firms for any legal issues that arise within their operation also.

  62. Monster Cable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    maintaining fiber? What do you think they have to actually maintain?

    Don't they have to polish the ends to ensure faster data throughput?

    Monster or Denon will happily sell them a gold-plated optical fibre cable that doesn't need polishing.

  63. Why are they peering with YouTube? by jfengel · · Score: 1

    Since YouTube's traffic goes largely one direction, why are level-one providers peering with them?

    I thought that peering was largely about "you carry my bits and I'll carry yours and they'll roughly balance out". I know that this isn't like physical mail, and that the fiber can be tuned to specialize the bits going in one direction, but I'd have thought that this wouldn't be like your bog-standard interconnect between Level 1 peers.

    If I'm reading your post aright, it's because they're using the other bandwidth to provide connectivity between Tier 1 peers. And so the traffic isn't just going one way; the YouTube traffic is only part of the traffic the YouTube network carries.

    But they're not thought of as a Tier 1 peer in their own right. Are you saying they should be?

  64. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by mini+me · · Score: 1

    What they are basically saying is that Youtube does not have any development costs because they do not pay any third-party development firms to work on their software.

  65. Moral of the story by Kludge · · Score: 1

    Own your own fiber.

  66. Better Car Analogy... by JD-1027 · · Score: 1

    It is not like that at all.

    It's more like a car analogy. If you are already on slashdot, and have to provide an analogy to explain something, you might as well use a car because we already know car analogies and can relate to them easier. It doesn't really "cost" anything extra to use a car analogy, so you might as well do it.

    I love meta-stuff.

  67. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    While all you say is true, there is also the concept of sunk costs and the fact that Google is large enough to worry about being a political and regulatory target. As someone pointed out, Google got a lot of that fibre at fire sale prices (it's not how much you paid, it's how much you saved :-)), so the sunk costs were relatively low. We're also in the middle of a big recession so there may be a surplus of bandwidth available and getting into a price war with major ISPs probably isn't going to make them popular with the companies with whom they need to establish peering agreements. When those large telcos have already gone crying to Congress that they want to be able to throttle a content provider's bandwidth unless they are paid protection money, it's probably a good idea to avoid looking like you're also a competitor trying to undercut them. However, buying something like YouTube, where Google can capitalize on YouTube's popularity with their advertising business, allows them to use that spare bandwidth without raising anyone's hackles as unfair competition (it's just vertical integration Senator, everybody does it!).

    It's actually impressively clever thinking that's way out of the boxes that Microsoft and the Telcos have locked themselves into with their business models.

  68. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by ppanon · · Score: 1

    True, but irrelevant, unless you're an accuntant or economental.

    Or an IRS auditor. Spending on infrastructure assets vs. external services often have significant implications come tax time. Which is why accountants care, and why it is not as simple as your abysmally bad example implies.

    --
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  69. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by ppanon · · Score: 1

    So if they didn't need all that bandwidth for YouTube, they could be selling their bandwidth instead of trading it.

    That`s not how peering agreements work. It`s not like trying to sell power back to the power company.

    --
    Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
  70. Context, please, context. by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

    More accurately, this is like saying "I don't own a car, so my petrol costs are zero", and everyone in the comments going "But that doesn't include your bus tickets or the time you spend walking!", and completely missing the point.

    You're stripping out the context. Some months ago, an analyst contended that YouTube's not making Google any money, because of the cost of buying bandwidth from external provider. The story mentions this, and then claims that YouTube's may be paying $0 to external providers for bandwidth, because of Google's fiber network and peering. In this context, it is perfectly reasonable to ask what are the operating costs of Google's fiber network, because the underlying question is whether Google breaks even on YouTube.

    So, to fix your analogy, this is as if somebody bragging that they are thrifty because they don't own a car, and thus pay no money in gasoline, and then somebody else pointing out that the braggart spent a comparable amount of money on taxi fares.

  71. More bad analogies by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

    It's more like you own a truck, and you are driving accost town anyway, so your friend asks you to pick up a box and deliver it. Sure you had to burn a little more gas, and it took about fifteen minutes more, but it's your friend, and compared to what you were doing to start with it's not a big deal, aka 'free'.

    Except that given how much traffic YouTube requires, it's more like you're driving across town to do your weekly groceries for your family of four, but you need to do it in a trailer truck because you're also hauling along your friend's containerful of weightlifting gear for his fitness equipment store, which by the way, is not turning any profit.

    You wouldn't need the trailer and most of the gas if you were just doing your groceries; an SUV would do the job just fine. (And yes, that last bit was saracsm.)

  72. Net neutrality? by thule · · Score: 1

    I keep pointing this out. This is how the Internet should work. We all should encourage peering. I had read a long time ago that Yahoo only payed for half of their bandwidth because they had content and the ISP's had eyeballs wanting that content.

    So, how this effect net neutrality? The argument is that the big guys can prioritize packets for their own purposes while the small fry doesn't get that level service for their packets. It seems to me that badly written net neutrality laws will only make peering more common, but not necessarily make things more "fair". So, for example, instead of putting a QoS rule to make an ISP's VoIP service "better" than, say, Vonage, all they would have to do is setup an alternate network for all of their VoIP traffic and make sure that it is internally peered to all important routing points. That way, if their transit routers get congested their VoIP service will have plenty of breathing room. Is that "fair"? Of course it is. Big content providers get to be "closer" to users than a smaller independent person. At the same time, if they host their content at a large hosting company, they may also benefit from peering with ISP's.

  73. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by shiftless · · Score: 1

    The point is, idiot, those costs were already paid and accounted for long before Youtube came around. I guarantee that when Google laid in fiber, they laid in 100x what they ever thought they might need. I am sure they, of all people, have the foresight to see that the need for bandwidth is only going to increase and it's way cheaper to add more fiber now than to dig up and add more later. So I'm sure they have bundles of fibers in each of those datacenters that arent even connected to anything yet. The cost is already paid by the advertising department to install the fiber and maintain it. That's already accounted for. So when any new applications come along, like Youtube, the bandwidth provided to them is free. They have so much extra potential bandwidth sitting there untapped that practically speaking it is an unlimited resource to them. Therefore there is pretty much zero opportunity cost here.

  74. Old News Already... by bkrausz · · Score: 1

    I called this about 10 months ago... http://nerdlife.net/why-youtube-cant-cost-165m-a-day/

    Why do people listen to the very successful research firm, but not the punk-ass kid in Boston?

  75. $500 million per year by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now, I know this is a simplistic equation, but this was just for bandwidth right?

    Even if Google was paying $5/Mbps/month for traffic (and that's about $3/Mbps more expensive than I pay for it in quantities greater than 1Gbps), that's 8,000Gbps. That's a huge amount of traffic and equates to about 80 million concurrent streams.

  76. Infrastructure is a fixed cost, use of it is not by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Well, yes, but it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Those represent relatively fixed cost to the ISP (again, not really, but close enough for this discussion).

    No, you're failing to see an important distinction. The network infrastructure is a fixed cost, but the cost of using the network is not the cost of the network infrastructure; it is the price that the market would pay for transit on that network. Every time Google transmits their own data over their fiber network, they had the alternative of selling that bandwidth to somebody else as transit. The price that they could have obtained from that sale is the cost of that bandwidth.

    The point is that when analyzing the cost of their network, you should really think about what the value of the bandwidth of the network is, and compare it to the revenue that they obtain from using the network. If the revenue over the long term turns out to be less than the market value of the bandwidth, then they're better off selling the bandwidth.

  77. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by SEE · · Score: 1

    Maybe magic pixies laid it for them.

    They did.

    Okay, not exactly magic pixies. But in the dotcom bubble, there were a lot of companies laying fiber everywhere, companies which then evaporated when the bubble burst. Google was then able to buy lots of already-laid fiber for a fraction of cost to lay.

    One of the results of how Google got the fiber is that they're not paying interest charges on its construction (either explicit by borrowing to build, or implicit by internally financing and forgoing interest on the cash used to pay for it) anywhere near that of companies that laid their own fiber at their own expense. So those companies are charging maintenance plus interest plus profit for access to non-peers, while Google is only paying maintenance.

  78. Keep in mind by zogger · · Score: 1

    That these large ISPs are in the business of selling connectivity to their hundreds (whatever) of downstream ISPs and then on to millions of customers. Even if youtube is mostly one way, if they start really demanding more money, and it impacts their customers access to youtube in any way negatively, they would be seriously annoying a huge part of their customer base. Those customers *would* find out eventually, word would get around that "their" ISP was making it harder/more expensive/impossible to get to youtube. I mean, that's the whole point of being an ISP, sell that connection for a little more than it costs you. They can only push so hard before they start getting nailed with blowback. Peering with youtube might cost them a little, but it saves them a lot in the long run..by maintaining their customer base.

      The only thing that might work for them, to try and squeeze more money out, is an across the board cartel push against google/youtube, and then you'd get the feds and fleets of lawyers involved, again, costing serious scratch and a lot of bad PR. And google has deep enough pockets no telling what they might do then, start their own wireless nationwide ISP. Who knows, anything along those lines combined with what fiber they have now or what more they could lay themselves, but they could do it, that's the point, they *could* do it, push come to shove.

    Google makes more loot than a lot of nations. They have some juice, and so far at least, the schwartz has been with them.

  79. Re:Yes, because Google's fiber costs nothing to ru by mjwx · · Score: 1

    It's not so much the cost to run their own fiber (marginal cost), which could be very low. The relevant cost here is opportunity cost; they could be charging other content providers to use that fiber and the revenue they're giving up is the real cost of using it for their own content.

    Your theory falls apart when you consider that not every company is out to bleed every last cent out of whomever they can.

    Perhaps Google simply did not wish to enter an overcrowded marketplace, or wanted more then one revenue stream from their investments (Google's Fiber does transmit more then just Google data, their ongoing data costs are near zero because they peer with other high tier providers). I do not believe diversification is in Intro to Economics but it's a fairly good idea for a large business.

    It would not be a stretch of the imagination to say that Google gets more out of free peering then it would out of selling that bandwidth considering the amount of bandwidth Google would then have to pay for in order to run it other own services. Everyone wants a slice of the Google advertising pie, this way Google gets to tell them to sod off and has the support of other tier one providers when they want to start charging Google for bandwidth on other sites (and there's been plenty of talk about this).

    This has been another reminder as to why libertarian views are blinkered and often just plain wrong, profit is never the only motive.

    --
    Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.