Perks & Paintball For Employees At Cybercrime, Inc.

Barence writes "Innovative Marketing Ukraine was in the business of churning out some of the world's most pernicious, and profitable, computer viruses. As the company grew, it added a human resources department, hired an internal IT staff and built a call center to dissuade its victims from seeking credit card refunds. Employees were treated to catered holiday parties and picnics with paintball competitions. Top performers got bonuses as young workers turned a blind eye to the harm the software was doing. 'When you are just 20, you don't think a lot about ethics,' said one former Innovative Marketing programmer. 'I had a good salary and I know that most employees also had pretty good salaries.' The firm has been closed down after the US Federal Trade Commission filed a lawsuit seeking its disbandment in the federal court. But an examination of the FTC's complaint and documents from a legal dispute among Innovative executives offers a rare glimpse into a dark, expanding — and highly profitable — corner of the internet."

Comments

Ethics

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny, I did think about ethics when I was 20.

Then again, I wasn't a piece of scum.

Re:Ethics

[TheRaven64]

Given the number of student protest organisations relative to other age groups, I'd have assumed that 20 was when most people thought about ethics. And what happens to the money that these scum made?

Re:Ethics

[turbotroll]

Funny, I did think about ethics when I was 20.

So did I. The sense of ethics does evolve with aging, but who hasn't developed any by the age of 20 should be considered retarded, both intellectually and emotionally.

Then again, I wasn't a piece of scum.

"Some people are alive only because it is illegal to kill them."

Re:Ethics

[Anonymous Coward]

At least traditional whores are doing honest work...

It's too bad that they, not prick software devs, get most of the attention from serial killers.

Re:Ethics

[Aladrin]

I put this in the same category as people who work for telemarketers. They know they are pissing people off left and right because people tell them so on a daily basis. That doesn't stop them, though. They all use the same excuses: "I have to work somewhere." and "Someone else would do it anyway."

This guy just takes it a step further and ignores criminal actions as well as unethical ones.

Re:Ethics

[decoy256]

We are talking the Ukraine here. Let's not automatically superimpose American sensibilities on someone that comes from a drastically different culture and lifestyle.

Let's have a little charity for someone who hasn't grown up as extravagantly privileged as us.

Re:Ethics

[alc6379]

We are talking the Ukraine here. Let's not automatically superimpose American sensibilities on someone that comes from a drastically different culture and lifestyle.

Let's have a little charity for someone who hasn't grown up as extravagantly privileged as us.

I've never understood this rationale. How is theft in the Ukraine any different from theft anywhere else? I'm sure many people make an honest living there, just like every other country. You can't put a "cultural" spin on fraud or theft.

Re:Ethics

[Bakkster]

I put this in the same category as people who work for telemarketers. They know they are pissing people off left and right because people tell them so on a daily basis. That doesn't stop them, though. They all use the same excuses: "I have to work somewhere." and "Someone else would do it anyway."

This guy just takes it a step further and ignores criminal actions as well as unethical ones.

But, telemarketing isn't unethical, just annoying. As long as they follow the law (Do Not Call List, etc) in both letter and intent, they aren't doing anything either illegal or unethical. You can hang up on their asses any time you like, so do it. Just because they can exploit your kindness to keep you on the line doesn't make them unethical, it just makes you a sucker.

That said, I have a friend who spent some time telemarketing. He would bring a book with him and hope that someone would put him on hold as a way to 'get back' at him for interrupting their dinner or whatever. He couldn't hang up, so he would just read the book until they did. He made only pennies less, so he didn't particularly care

Re:Ethics

[sco08y]

Funny, I did think about ethics when I was 20.

Yeah... Seems to me that the late teens/early 20's are when most people get all activist and start trying to save the world.

At that age, the save-the-world types do it because their friends are doing it. Early to late teens are the age when people cheat in school, bully each other, shoplift, vandalize; generally people are at an ethical low point at that age.

Re:Ethics

[turbotroll]

We are talking the Ukraine here. Let's not automatically superimpose American sensibilities on someone that comes from a drastically different culture and lifestyle.

I do not superimpose American sensibilities. I am not even American, to begin with.

Let's have a little charity for someone who hasn't grown up as extravagantly privileged as us.

Crime is much more often caused by laziness and stupidity than poverty.

Notice, in this particualr case, that one of the sacks of shit said that he didn't "think a lot about ethics". He never said about living in poverty, feeding his siblings or whatever. Sorry, I have absolutely no sympathy for him.

Re:Ethics

[joocemann]

Funny, I did think about ethics when I was 20.

Then again, I wasn't a piece of scum.

This is exactly what I thought. You should have a sense of moral code and ethics by puberty. If you don't have ethics at 20, you probably won't have ethics at 30, 40, or 50, or until you've somehow been influenced or compelled to change.

Re:Ethics

[Skater]

I'm a statistician, and as an undergrad I went to a smaller school that only had one or two stats professors, so I got to take about 7 classes with one professor... fortunately, he was a VERY good one. He would spend a class period each semester talking about ethics in statistics. Certain companies may pay you a lot of money, and he acknowledged that's hard to resist coming out of college, but what you may be doing there just isn't morally right. It was a lecture that really made you think. Even though I was never offered one of those jobs, the ethics of what I'm doing each day does cross my mind - am I doing what's best for the results we're trying to produce? Is this the most statistically sound approach I can take? Am I violating a basic assumption of this statistic? And so on. I'm sure a lot of his students just blew off that lecture (it wasn't on the test), and I'm sure he knew that, but I'm glad he gave it anyway.

Re:Ethics

[khchung]

I've never understood this rationale. How is theft in the Ukraine any different from theft anywhere else? I'm sure many people make an honest living there, just like every other country. You can't put a "cultural" spin on fraud or theft.

I don't know about you, but to me, the "context" (not culture) of a theft sometimes makes a difference.

E.g. stealing $10 when your family are starving is and entirely different thing than stealing $10 million when you are filthy rich.

Think about that.

Assholes having fun

[Voulnet]

LOL, sounds like fun. They're still assholes, though. Too bad really hardworking ethical employees get shafted world-wide. And... really, did they do more harm than some of the world-widely known software companies in the world?

Well that's a bit odd, I think.

[Securityemo]

He's either dodging the question, or he really didn't think about what he was doing? Most people in the malware authoring business probably at least understand the consequences of what they do, even if they don't care. Akin to these guys: http://www.securityfocus.com/news/11476

Re:Well that's a bit odd, I think.

[Andy Smith]

Shocking. People still use ICQ?

Corporations are neither evil or good

[ACK!!]

They are amoral which is somewhat essential to the core goal of providing profit for the shareholders. This company is just an extreme example of this. I actually find the more interesting parts of the article are those that focus on the methods and such like this quote: ""You can install it by any means, except spam," says one affiliate recruiting site, earning4u.com, which pays $6 to $180 for every 1,000 PCs infected with its software. PCs in the US earn a higher rate than ones in Asia." The methods more than the perks are what to me makes the article interesting.

Re:Corporations are neither evil or good

[krou]

Please tell me, does your reasoning extend to individuals i.e. if I am amoral, then you have no right to call me either good or evil when I decide to go and rob your house?

Ethics

[Andy Smith]

"When you are just 20, you don't think a lot about ethics"

Really? I did.

What I suspect this person really means is: He was fully aware that what he was doing was unethical, but he liked the money. Saying that that he "didn't think" about the ethics is an attempt to excuse his behaviour.

Re:The Corporation

[Anonymous Coward]

Well of course, if you do something illegal, you have to bribe your employees not to tell on you.

If you do something legal, you are just a slave without leverage.

good quote

[circletimessquare]

"When you are just 20, you don't think a lot about ethics"

of equal validity:

"When you are just 30, you don't think a lot about ethics"
"When you are just 40, you don't think a lot about ethics"
"When you are just 50, you don't think a lot about ethics"
etc...

people are ethical or they are not. age has nothing to do with it. but its a nice rationalization on his part. people usually blame the evil media, the evil liberals, the evil conservatives, their evil parents, etc.: age old tired variations on the theme "the devil made me do it"

everyone has rationalizations for why their own poor personal choices are actually not their fault. which is of course pure unadulterated bullshit: if you did, it's your fault. end of fucking story. as soon as you break that thought, the whole idea of personal responsibility and morality is nullified

so this guy is saying is just a phase he'll outgrow, no big deal. nice one, asshole

Downside of narrowing "digital divide"

[elrous0]

Poverty and hard living in places like the Ukraine and Nigeria doesn't tend to encourage much empathy among scammers and phishers. People (like the OLPC guys) always talk about how bringing the internet to the third world is going to make lives better and all that. But they ignore the fact that a lot of those poor people are going to use this new-found freedom to scam those in the developed world, people who have a lot more resources than they do. Over time, this kind of activity can become normalized, enjoying quasi-legal and moral sanction (as was the case here).

?Ethics?

[minstrelmike]

The difference in ethics by working at some big company paying you to sell over-priced home loans that eventually collapse the global economy is what?

Meta comment on the comments

[DerekLyons]

It's fascinating how many people have latched onto the ethics issue... It would be interesting to see how many of them have nothing but fully paid for or legally free software and music on their computers.

Re:Meta comment on the comments

[theelectron]

I can't speak for others, but I would qualify under you having nothing but fully paid or free software and music. I still strongly agree with the posters pointing out the bad ethics of this company and its employees. I also would argue that stealing music is not very comparable to what IMU was doing. Have you ever had your ID stolen? Have you ever had your music passed around free on the internet? They are not nearly the same.

Exactly

[Moraelin]

You know, I remember I was about 18 when I wrote a virus just for curiosity sake. (Yeah, I know, slow learner;)) Just for the reference, back then it meant the kind that copies itself at the end of executables (or for other viruses into the boot sector), rather than the modern day Internet worms.

It probably wasn't the most advanced virus out there, but it was a neat piece of assembly by _my_ standards, and I was pretty proud of it.

I actually considered releasing it into the wild, but basically... I dunno, something seemed _wrong_ with doing so. There was no way I could justify to myself doing something destructive to a lot of perfect strangers that had done me no wrong.

I didn't think of it as some formalized ethics system, or anything. Heck, I was almost allergic to even the idea of philosophy in any form. It seemed a pointless waste of time to sit and think about abstract artificial dilemmas, instead of doing something actually productive. Like code something. And I was quick to denounce anything that even remotely looked like artifficial and arbitrary social rules and conventions. But it just seemed wrong to do that anyway. Not because it conflicted with some abstract code or philosophy, but just it seemed wrong to do that.

I think in the end that that _is_ ethics.

So it seems hard for me to swallow a justification like in the summary along the lines of, "hey, at 20 you don't think about ethics." On the contrary, I would expect anyone who got to 20 to be perfectly capable of asking themselves "is it right to do this?"