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Gaming in the 4th Dimension

Posted by CmdrTaco on from the still-haven't-solved-3d dept.

Wolf pointed me to a video clip demonstrating this game: "Miegakure is a platform game where you explore the fourth dimension to solve puzzles. There is no trick; the game is entirely designed and programmed in 4D." Nothing to download yet.

26 of 303 comments (clear)

  1. So Many Questions by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Interesting

    So I've traditionally known "the fourth dimension" to be something like time. Although you can call it space-time or the relationship that our three dimensional world has with our concept of time. And in games like Braid (which is like an interesting two dimensional scrolling platform with four dimensional control), you get to have fun manipulating this time so that you can predict where your little character is when you slide back in time. It's where you were before.

    In Miegakure, it appears that the player is controlling a fourth dimension except it's not too clear what fourth dimension actually represents to me. If Miegakure's fourth dimension was time, we would see some indication of natural decay of the environment to give us visual cues that it's aging. For example, if one ring were made of steel and the other of wood, the wood one would decay as we go to the future and then we would make some action that is "special" (meaning that it is not subjected to our time control) and then move the steel ring into the wood ring and blast back to when the wood ring existed. Our special action could not be undone otherwise you wouldn't get anywhere with being able to control time.

    Miegakure seemed to invent non-natural transposed states of the environment that I, for the life of me, could not understand. How did I know which blocks would appear and disappear leaving only shadows? How do I know how far to go in a fourth dimensional direction? Must the player explore the available transposed states before planning their movements along all four dimensions? So that they can construct an interleaved solution?

    And what happens with a now block exists in a shadow space and you try to transposition yourself to the point when the shadow space is occupied by another block? Does the game block you from making that transposition? What if you want to transpose to a point beyond that when it is a shadow space again? Is this a blocking mechanism that will add to the difficulty of the puzzle?

    As someone ravaged by the Adventures of Lolo series on the NES, I could see a potentially high level of addiction here.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:So Many Questions by pushing-robot · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Today's XKCD might help a bit. It's a world that has four spatial dimensions, like a hypercube.

      We haven't been able to find any evidence of "real" higher spatial dimensions (though theories abound), but thinking in an extra dimension is an interesting mental exercise nonetheless.

      --
      How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
    2. Re:So Many Questions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Time is not "the fourth dimension." It is very much like a spacial dimension, speaking as a physicist; however, it is also very different. This is clear both from experience (ever try to move back and forth in time?) and mathematically (via the signature of the metric of spacetime).

      In this game, the fourth dimension is simply an extra spacial dimension. Consider the analog of "linking two rings" in a 2-D world: put one circle inside another. Well, if you're stuck in a plane, it cannot be done -- simply move outside of that plane into 3-D, and it's simple. In Miegakure there is a 4th spacial dimension. You can move in this fourth dimension without moving in any of the other three.

      Yeah, it's weird. I'm not entriely clear as to what the shadows represent (except, maybe, for a helpful reminder as to what is "next" to you.)

    3. Re:So Many Questions by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Miegakure suggests that there is a fourth spatial dimention, just like the three you are used to seeing.

      Take a read through Flatland, its a short story based on a square who lives on a 2 dimentional plane. Basically how he can only see things in 1 Dimension (a line) because him and his world are on a single plane. Now, imagine his world lives within our 3d Realm. His life doesn't change much, until we choose to interfere. Imagine if you slid a ball through his 2d plane. He would at first see nothing, then a dot, then that dot grow into a line, then it shrink, into a dot, and disappear.

      Basically someone took this idea, and imagined what it would be like if there were a 4th spatial dimension we were unaware of (physics has however shown us that there isn't one). If someone pushed a 4d Cube (or hypercube) through our 3d plane, what would we see? Nothing at first, then a cube show up, then it grows into its full size, then shrink back down, and disappear.

      Now someone has taken that idea and put it in a game. The programming is actually simpler than it seems. Instead of testing XYZ co-ordinates you are testing WXYZ co-ordinates.

    4. Re:So Many Questions by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well it depends on its rotation as well. For example a cube entering flatland would either pop up, stay the same, disappear, or dot-grow-shrink, depending on whether you are introducing the cube with one of the sides in parallel with the plane, or whether you to so with a vertice entering first.

    5. Re:So Many Questions by somersault · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This doesn't seem so much like a "fourth dimension" as a form of "subspace" or an alternate 3D reality (then again I haven't played the game and maybe am picking things up wrong from the video).

      I don't see how adding another dimension can magically allow two objects to become linked when they were unable to be linked in a lower dimension. Two circles on a piece of paper cannot physically merge with each other if you assume their boundaries are solid and cannot pass through each other. Neither can 2 rings lain on a table, or two cylinders or two spheres be overlapped without breaking them somewhere. So how would adding another dimension allow you to join two 3D objects with a hole in the middle, even if you only moved one of them into this higher dimension?

      --
      which is totally what she said
    6. Re:So Many Questions by pushing-robot · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yeah, it's weird. I'm not entriely clear as to what the shadows represent (except, maybe, for a helpful reminder as to what is "next" to you.)

      I think that's the idea. It's hard to tell from the short video, but the blocky nature of the world implies to me that the game limits you to arbitrary "jumps" in each dimension. Just like the world could be divided into fixed-width planes in the X, Y, and Z dimensions, it looks like the W dimension is composed of distinct layers. Which would explain the shadows; they represent what would appear if you jumped to the next adjacent "slice" of 4d-space.

      --
      How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
    7. Re:So Many Questions by Garble+Snarky · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Here's one way to think about it: You have two concentric circles in a plane, they can't pass through each other in two dimensions. In three dimensions, the concept of "passing through each other" is no longer necessary for getting them "unlinked".

    8. Re:So Many Questions by ZXDunny · · Score: 5, Informative

      Take a read through Flatland, its a short story based on a square who lives on a 2 dimentional plane. Basically how he can only see things in 1 Dimension (a line) because him and his world are on a single plane.

      The XKCD alt-text contains a nice in-joke about flatland (IIRC) - all women are straight lines, and the more important a member of society, the more sides he has - a priest would be almost a circle, as he has so many sides he looks circular. The alt-text goes: "Also, I apologize for the time I climbed down into your world and everyone freaked out about the lesbian orgy overseen by a priest." Which is what the flatlanders would see when a stick-man enters their world :)

      --
      10 PRINT "SCUNTHORPE"(2 TO 5): GO TO 10
    9. Re:So Many Questions by Per+Wigren · · Score: 4, Informative

      10 dimensions. There is a pretty easy to follow explanation on Youtube:
      Imagining the Tenth Dimension, Part 1
      Imagining the Tenth Dimension, Part 2

      --
      My other account has a 3-digit UID.
    10. Re:So Many Questions by somersault · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Hmm... well that would similarly work for a sphere containing another sphere.. but a torus or any other object with a hole is surely a different class of object.. I'm not sure what the 2D representation of a torus would be..?

      --
      which is totally what she said
    11. Re:So Many Questions by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Think about it this way:

      You put a box inside a safe. That safe has no doors. How do you get the box outside the safe? You slide it through the fourth dimension - so that the walls of the safe are no longer in the way. You change its XYZ co-ordinates, slide it back through the fourth dimension so its about where it began. The box is now outside the safe.

      If thats still a little tricky to understand, we'll explain it flatland style.

      You draw a circle inside of a square on a piece of paper. How do you get the circle outside of the square (assuming you can't move the lines through each other). Well, if you had the ability to take the circle off the paper, move it a few inches, and place it back on the paper, you would have moved it outside of the square with no intersection taking place.

      The same thing is happening here, you are taking two rings, sliding them among a dimension that they do not occupy (thus removing any chance for collision) and then putting them back. Its tough to wrap your mind around, I know.

    12. Re:So Many Questions by Ephemeriis · · Score: 4, Informative

      I don't see how adding another dimension can magically allow two objects to become linked when they were unable to be linked in a lower dimension. Two circles on a piece of paper cannot physically merge with each other if you assume their boundaries are solid and cannot pass through each other.

      Say we've got two circles drawn on a 2D plane - a sheet of paper. Assume their edges are physical boundaries - if you push them together they'll bump into each-other, not merge or join.

      Now, pick one of those 2D circles up off of the page. It no longer occupies the same 2D space that the other circle does. You can move it back and forth without it bumping into anything, because the other circle is stuck down on the piece of paper.

      If you move the two circles so that they're overlapping a bit, like a Venn diagram... And then drop that circle back onto the 2D plane of the paper, they're now overlapping or linked. Even though that would have been impossible to do in just two dimensions.

      --
      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
    13. Re:So Many Questions by somersault · · Score: 3, Funny

      .

      (This is to get around the lameness filter)

      --
      which is totally what she said
  2. Flatland by Kagura · · Score: 4, Funny

    This article was written by the most hideous of triangles.

  3. Re:xkcd by toastar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Actually i think the poster stole it from him.

  4. Re:xkcd by somersault · · Score: 5, Funny

    Now I know what us 6 digit users must look like to the 5 digit users..

    --
    which is totally what she said
  5. Re:xkcd by Pteraspidomorphi · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...You insensitive clod!

  6. Re:xkcd by Aladrin · · Score: 4, Funny

    You want to know how a character in a fictional cartoon universe played a game that doesn't exist yet?

    --
    "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
  7. string theory by malp · · Score: 3, Insightful

    providing no unique, testable predictions for over 20 years...

    1. Re:string theory by Rogerborg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      providing continuous funding for non-disprovable theories for over 20 years...

      Fixed that for you. Try to focus on what's really important, will you?

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  8. W-axis by AlpineR · · Score: 5, Funny

    Actually, there is a demo to download. You just have to move your mouse along the w-axis to reach the link.

    1. Re:W-axis by moonbender · · Score: 5, Funny

      I think there's an option in xorg.conf to make the mouse wheel do that.

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      Switch back to Slashdot's D1 system.
  9. Another 4d game by danhaas · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If you want to try another 4d game while Miegakure doesn't release, check http://harmen.vanderwal.eu/hypercube/ The objective of the game is to push the big ball towards the blue cross, then move the cursor to the square. You will then be outside the box and have to reach the green square again, while you avoid the small ball. Try it in 2d and 3d before going to 4d.

  10. Re:xkcd by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Has anyone of you noticed the pun behind A. Square's words?

    Guy: "Hey, A. Square, how's flatland?"
    A. Square: "Still flat. What's up?"

    Take a look at the picture, and notice that there is no "up" in flatland. So, was A. Square's question metaphorical, literal or philosophical?

  11. OK, lets try this in 1D: by s-gen · · Score: 3, Interesting

    a line:
    ______________________

    a "ring" called "A":
    __A_____A_____________

    and another "ring" called "B":
    __A_____A___B_____B__

    lift "B" into the second dimension:
    _____________B_____B__
    __A_____A_____________

    slide "B" across:
    _____B_____B___________
    __A_____A_____________

    drop "B" back onto the line:
    __A__B__A__B_________

    "A" and "B" are now "linked" in the 1D universe.