Intel and Nokia Provide First MeeGo Release

wehe writes "The first fruit of the cooperation between Intel and Nokia is available: the first release of MeeGo. MeeGo is a merge of the former Maemo and Moblin Linux distros. What is available now is 'The MeeGo distribution infrastructure and the operating system base from the Linux kernel to the OS infrastructure up to the middleware layer. The MeeGo architecture is based on a common core across the different usage models, such as netbooks, handheld, in-vehicle, and connected TV.' The images available now for download are suitable for Intel Atom-based netbooks, ARM-based Nokia N900, and Intel Atom-based handset (Moorestown). RPM repositories as well as git source repositories are there for download, too."

Comments

We really need dates

[Nexus7]

Um, not what it sounds like.

What I mean is, articles posted should have a date, instead of "5ish" or something.

I mean, Meego actually released for the N900.
India fingerprinting and photographing every resident for a census.
Microsoft fixing 1800 bugs using "fuzzing."

What is truth, what is fiction? What was posted on April 1st? How will an advanced civilization far off in the future know? For that matter, how can I tell?

Or is it in the account preferences?

Re:We really need dates

[loutr]

"Posted by kdawson on 14:55 Friday 02 April 2010"

That's what I see under the post title. Is that what you're talking about ? If so, yes, you can change the date format in your preferences.

Re:We really need dates

[Anonymous Coward]

Biggest Slashdot 4-digit UID cluelessness award goes to: you.

Disappointing

[Rysc]

I am quite saddened that this new system will not be Debian-based. One of the little joys of my n900 is that it is Debian underneath. I cannot imagine that switching to a Fedora base will make anything better, and I expect it will make many things worse.

Re:Disappointing

[ultrabot]

I cannot imagine that switching to a Fedora base will make anything better, and I expect it will make many things worse.

MeeGo is not using Fedora base, it's a new distribution that happens to use RPM.

While it probably was not reason for the switch (they cite existing infrastructure and people intel have in place), RPM packaging is allegedly easier than Debian packaging (only need to edit one file and you are good to go).

Re:Disappointing

[glasserc]

Most people who care seem to share your opinion. I'm a little upset about it too, but remember that the original Maemo system wasn't "quite" Debian based -- you couldn't just apt-get whatever you wanted. There were some incompatibilities with the standard Debian repos. That's why they had the easy-debian-chroot package, and that was what I really loved about Maemo. To be honest, I don't care a whole lot whether the Application Manager is a frontend to apt or yum. As long as I have my easy-deb-chroot, I'll be happy :)

Nokia is the biggest hardware company out there that I think really "gets it". So I'm still taking a position of cautious optimism.

Ethan

Re:Disappointing

[idontgno]

I care whether the application manager is a front end for apt-get or yum because when there are 15 pending updates I don't have to click through each one, I can just drop to a terminal, become root and apt-get upgrade.

Go root, "yum update". All done tout de suite.

With yum I don't know how to do this and don't care to learn it.

Ah, belligerent and willfully ignorant. That's a winning personality package you've got going there.

I have been burned too many times by redhat-based distros to want to have anything to do with them.

QQ. So don't use MeeGo. I administer both deb and rpm systems, and have for over five years, and they've screwed me equally in terms of package management. Debian is not the Messiah (yes, it's a very naughty packaging system), and RPM is not the Great Satan. Get over fanboi-ism and at least make credible reality-based arguments if you have to take sides.

Re:Disappointing

[steak]

With yum I don't know how to do this and don't care to learn it.

attitudes like this are what lead people to say things like "cry more noob" and RTFM. if you can't be bothered to type yum --help how did you ever learn how to use apt.

or maybe i forgot to wear my troll proof tin foil hat this morning.

No Intel GMA500 / Poulsbo Support?

[DaGoodBoy]

Half the available netbooks are running the GMA500 / Poulsbo and there hasn't been any support by Intel for Linux drivers since 2008. How can they claim MeeGo will support netbook and MID hardware without accelerated video drivers for their own product?

Re:No Intel GMA500 / Poulsbo Support?

[rwa2]

Word... I'd love to throw these little mouse-sized computers at everything for work, but can't really use their binary driver packages that can only really be shoehorned in to a particular ubuntu release.

Had to go with a mini-itx nVidia ION platform instead... which admittedly has much better performance and driver support, but is ~8 times the size and thus actually needs space and mounting hardware allocated for it. I wish some manufacturer would sell the nano-itx ION reference platform (hint hint easy money)... that was almost as small as a Fit-PC2 and had all the interfaces we wanted. But blargh.

Re:No Intel GMA500 / Poulsbo Support?

[dargaud]

Why do they sell those mini PCs and think people will want to either install the latest Vista on it or run it with the provided OS (whatever that is, including Linux in many cases) where the support stops as soon as it's past your mailbox and into which most of the drivers have hardly any examples. You want to sell them ? Simple, provide open-source drivers and documentation for them.

Encouraging

[Kludge]

And thank goodness, I say. One of the little disappointments of my little N900 is that it uses debian packaging system, and I can't even tell what date which packages were installed.

Re:Encouraging

[Rysc]

You can't tell only if you don't want to tell. While it's not easily exposed this information is effectively available.

$ ls -l /var/lib/dpkg/info/packagename.list

The datestamp on this should correspond to when you installed it.

Debian is a far, far better platform for building distributions than Fedora or any RPM-based distro that I've seen. I understand that Intel had 'expertise' already in doing it the RPM way, but this is a poor excuse for doing harm to your customers.

Re:Encouraging

[CAIMLAS]

Debian package manipulation tools are more advanced/mature and are able to gracefully deal with fringe conditions/scenarios than RPM. While the packages may be easier to make, the end result appears to be:

* Debian distros degrade much more gracefully over time/use.
* Upgrades and non-standard (IE 3rd party repository) packages tend to not break things as severely.
* The package system is somewhat more atomic, allowing for function even with broken packages.
* You are able to (statefully) recover from source-based installs as well as non-packaged binary installs.

Re:Encouraging

[Hurricane78]

Portage is even more advanced. And I don’t even talk about Paludis.
I don’t get why people still love to live in dependency hell (or DLL hell)...

Re:Encouraging

[bill_mcgonigle]

Could you explain these in a way that somebody used to RPM could understand?

* Debian distros degrade much more gracefully over time/use.

What does this mean? That you can leap several major versions without dependency resolution problems? The feature of debian's system that I miss in a Fedora system is multiple concurrent versions of the same package, so maybe that's what you're getting at?

* Upgrades and non-standard (IE 3rd party repository) packages tend to not break things as severely.

I use several 3rd-party repos with Fedora and haven't seen any breakage, much less severe. There was a time when poor repo maintainers would do things like publish their own kernels randomly with higher version numbers, but that evolved repo prioritization.

How does debian improve this?

* The package system is somewhat more atomic, allowing for function even with broken packages.

Do you mean the packages tend to be bundled more loosely (one library per package, etc.)? That seems like a human decision. How does an RPM-based system fail to function if there's a broken package? Usually, broken packages refuse to install.

* You are able to (statefully) recover from source-based installs as well as non-packaged binary installs.

How does debian improve on the rpm-based method of re-installing (optionally rebuilding) the affected package?

TIA.

Re:Encouraging

[Rysc]

I use several 3rd-party repos with Fedora and haven't seen any breakage, much less severe.

"Works for me" is not the same as robust and bug free.

Debian has a long history of working well with "third party" repos--this is because Debian was *designed* to be a base with "third party" repos layered on top. Fedora was not designed this way and (last I knew) was a bit schizophrenic when it comes to non-main repos. In Debian this use case was handled years before yum was even written.

There was a time when poor repo maintainers would do things like publish their own kernels randomly with higher version numbers, but that evolved repo prioritization.

Another feature Debian had long before Fedora got it (except that apt pinning can work at the package level, too). This is useful to illustrate why Debian is better at package management: As in this case, Debian has had a longer history and has hit a wide range of use cases, corner cases and issues. This doesn't mean rpm/yum won't become as good eventually, it just means it is perpetually behind the curve. Even if there were no inherent differences or superiorities to apt this would be a good reason to use it in favor of yum.

Re:Encouraging

[21mhz]

* Debian distros degrade much more gracefully over time/use.
* Upgrades and non-standard (IE 3rd party repository) packages tend to not break things as severely.

I have used both packaging systems for quite some time, and I cannot confirm these statements. Both seem quite equally capable when managed well. Which is how MeeGo repositories are supposed to be.

* The package system is somewhat more atomic, allowing for function even with broken packages.

This is interesting, because in Maemo we had a big dpkg whopper: packages left in "unconfigured" state because there is a file conflict, or a dependency conflict. Considering that most users will only use Application Manager with little capabilities of resolving such things, I think "something more atomic" would suit MeeGo better. And rpm behaves completely atomically in this regard.

* You are able to (statefully) recover from source-based installs as well as non-packaged binary installs.

Oh, so you are the kind of user who not only does such things on your mobile device, but requires the system's assistance for it. You may find yourself getting a little less consideration from MeeGo architects, indeed.

Re:Encouraging

[21mhz]

So, you didn't really use rpm, yum, or apt-rpm, you don't know if they are as good, and therefore dpkg/apt is superior. Then there will be harm, mostly psychological in nature. I'm not sure there will be any for other users, you know, people who only see pretty icons on the screen and rarely open the text terminal. And it's those people, I'm afraid, who will decide if MeeGo is a viable mobile platform, or just another geek toy.

First DEVEL release

[Anonymous Coward]

Is not yet a desktop, it boots into a terminal. Don't install it in your (main?) N900 or replace your main operating system in your netbook with it, if you aren't developing applications for it and want to test them there. But can be installed in a USB key and test it from there if you are curious.

Re:Anyone know something about this?

[catbertscousin]

There is an amazing lack of information about MeeGo.

Not surprising, really. They take the brains of anyone who finds out too much about them and put them in cases for transport to other worlds for study while the ones on earth use the bodies to blend in with humanity. If you're going looking for info, I'd invest in some big, mean dogs. They don't like dogs.

Re:Does it come with a brain cannister?

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Unfortunately, ever since we committed the dreadfully insulting mistake of demoting Yuggoth from "Planet" to "Kuipier belt object", the fungi have had an embargo against us. Despite the general corruption and mismanagement of the UN Brain Canisters for Food program, they are still awfully hard to come by...

Re:Anyone know something about this?

[Weezul]

The N900 supports reading Word Processor and Spreadsheet files just fine under Maemo, probably even edits them, but you must buy the app for that from Nokia's Ovi Store. Can't you just see the positive impact Apple has had already? Btw, you've also got several other free readers based around various Linux office suites, but Nokia doesn't polish those.

I'm pretty happy with my N900 over all, especially ssh, rsync, and x11vnc. Very solid VoIP integration. Awesome unixy apps like python, latex, vpnc, etc. You'll find the phone quite "raw" of course, like most apps don't support rotation, but overall worthwhile. I'd expect the next hardware revision from Nokia will give you a considerably more polished experience of course.

Eww... PHB speak!

[Hurricane78]

to the OS infrastructure up to the middleware layer

It’s called libraries and demons! “middleware layer”... shit like that word could only come from a manager with no technical knowledge whatsoever.

Change for the sake of change

[pavon]

The concept of joining the efforts and creating MeeGo is a very good one, but the details that have been announced are not encouraging. Mameo was a mature shipping product with many developers. Moblin was a proof of concept with some interesting ideas. And yet in all the mundane details they seemed to favor what Moblin was using rather than Mameo. Package management isn't a huge deal. Back in the day apt was better than rpm, now aptitude and yum are pretty comparable, with only minor advantages and disadvantages. So why change which they are using for no compelling reason? Why would they choose the convenience of Intel over the convenience of an established developer and user community? It makes no sense whatsoever.

Re:rpm is a step backward, and rh based is idiotic

[Rysc]

Intel's MobLin project was originally based upon Debian too, but they switched to RPMs for various reasons, like the LSB and packaging ease. Nokia then signed on with Intel knowing they were switching package manager.

I believe you, but links please. LSB support under Debian has (in my somewhat outdated experience) been better than RH systems.

I know Nokia knew a distro/package formate/package manager switch was going to happen with the changeover, but I want to know why Nokia acquiesced and did it Intel's way and not the other way around. Where is the mailing list traffic documenting the technical discussion? I know it's two companies and suchforth but if you're trying to build the de-facto open Linux-based mobile platform then I want not only the source code, I want to see the ugly underbelly, I want to see the sausage made and I want to see the Intel people defend their chosen package manager, to see the basis for not using apt and dkpg, and I want to see the counter arguments, and I especially want to see the people arguing for apt admit that yum is the better solution. Even if the *reasons* are just practical ("We have 10,000 RPM packages, you guys only have 800 .deb packages, repackaging as .deb would take too long.") and not technical I want to see this argument and its conclusion.

I'm sure most hard core users will happily follow Intel and Nokia's lead. We need one well-supported true linux distribution for mobile devices with a viable market place, otherwise all the polished apps will run on Android instead.

Here here, I agree. But, I want the mobile Linux distribution to be based on Debian because Debian is a great base for distributions and is better in every conceivable way than the redhat-derived junk they're trying to peddle. I know that "unified platform" trumps "good platform"--Microsoft taught us that--but we can actually have both this time.