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Federal Appeals Court Says Sex Offender's Computer Ban Unfair
crimeandpunishment writes "A federal appeals court says a 30-year computer restriction for a convicted sex offender was too stiff a punishment. The man, who was caught in an Internet sex sting, had been ordered not to own or even use a computer." The D.C. Circuit Court's opinion in the case against Mark Wayne Russell is available as a PDF; slightly longer coverage from the Courthouse News Service.
A lifelong suspension of driving privilege for somebody caught DUI makes more sense than this.
As much as I want to see guilty people get punished, things like this that are a de facto sort of life sentence (even after release from jail) don't make sense either.
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
Are computers now so ubiquitous, and potentially so broadly defined, that they're a necessity? Is an Android phone a computer? What about your Tivo? Is banning someone from a computer restraint of trade these days?
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
Because it would be cruel and unusual punishment?
Pedophiles who contact their victims over phone aren't banned from ever using a phone, yet apparently some judge thought it would be a good idea to prevent a system engineer of 10 years (from the article) from using a computer. A three judge panel concluded that "it is often necessary to use a computer to apply for a job, including at McDonald's and PETCO."
Why the heck do we have judges who are so out of touch with reality making these sorts of mistakes? If the guy can't use a computer and really wanted to meet kids online, what's to stop him from getting an iPhone or a Blackberry? Justice isn't about revenge, it's about upholding the law and meting out punishment and forcing rehabilitation onto perpetrators. Along the way it became about taking someone off the streets for a time while teaching them the best way to commit crimes and not get called. (It's called jail). And now, we've moved onto some judges literally telling criminals that even when they're not in jail, they can't be a part of modern society at all? [sarcasm] That'll work really well to keep pedos from kids [/sarcasm]
Signatures are the new names.
Not to mention it's impossible to rectify a mistake or miscarriage of justice. (Which is most of the reason why I'm against the death penalty, though that's somewhat beside the point)
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Very poor moderation fellow. Although cutting off the offenders testicles and even penis would not stop a true pedophile. They would just offend using objects. Two of my professors when I was going for my LPC had experience with working with juvenile and adult sex offenders. One was blunt and said there was no cure. The one who did mostly juvenile offenders would say they had some success, and that some clients left and did not re-offend within the 5 year window they followed up in. She never would say they could not be cured. But when I pressed her the last day of class (after the finals had been graded and recorded) and asked her if she would let her grandson hang out with one of the ones who did not re-offend, she snapped out "No!", before trying to backpedal and hem and haw. There is a cure for pedophilia, but most people are squeamish about it. That one uneducated, and country woman down in Tx knew what it was, and administered it quite well, except for missing with the first shot. The others all went right home though.
Unlike receiving a DUI conviction and losing your license, while you are at the helm of your computer you do not risk careening into the other lane and killing a bus full of people. The computer is just a utility, not the vector.
The computer doesn't do the molesting, molester's do the molesting. The computer is one utility of many. If we start piecemeal restricting people from the things that could be used to aid in causing harm, what will we have left? Typical America, treating the symptoms, not the problems.
Props to the appeals court for finally realizing this stupidity.
'We are trying to prove ourselves wrong as quickly as possible, because only in that way can we find progress.' RPF
OK, no computers? So, No iphone? No Crackberry? No emergency transpoder in his car? No calculator? No video camera? No Digital Audio Converter? WTF?
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
Depends on the type of monitoring. I think it would be reasonable to prohibit the use of certain services and websites, but there's a lot of potential for abuse here especially once you get into spyware territory. We can't simply discard concerns about government intrusion and abuse of power just because the case involves sex offenders.
People organize their entire lives on computers, they're a virtual extension of your mind in many ways. If we get used to the idea that government can impose total monitoring on a computer because of some criminal punishment, what sort of other offenses will it end up being used for?
The criminal justice system is for justice, not revenge.
Most people look at things like homosexuality and pedophilia the completely wrong way. There is no cure because there are no symptoms. The results and causes are reversed. This person likes males/little boys/whatever because he is a homosexual/pedophile/whatever. Not: the person is a homosexual/pedophile/whatever because of X Y and Z.
Look, computers can not, and will not molest anyone. Heck, you can't even violate someone using -only- a computer. You can't commit rape over a computer or molest someone over a computer.
Part of having a free society is once you have paid your debt via restitution you should be free.
If he was really that much of a danger to society he should be in jail. But seeing as he didn't actually -do- anything, I don't see the point of him being in jail.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
If you beat someone up with a bat, wouldnt it be silly if a court ordered you to stay away from baseball games, sporting good stores, and ban you from every owning a bat again?
Then he'd walk funny when he said Mass.
You are welcome on my lawn.
No the end results are not the same. Quite honestly being homosexual, or being a pedophile in the most pure sense (someone who likes underage kids) is just the same as a man preferring say, latina women or asian women. If someone likes beautiful women that doesn't mean that he will sleep with them, same thing with homosexuality and pedophilia. Just because someone is sexually attracted to something doesn't mean that they will actually have sex with them. Otherwise, we'd all have supermodel wives.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
Not to mention it's impossible to rectify a mistake or miscarriage of justice.
I have to say, I've never understood this argument. I would regard the loss of my freedom as being as bad as the loss of my life. Are you really going to tell me that the state can repay someone who spent 30 years behind bars for a crime they didn't commit?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
It should be possible to redirect all this the anger and popular hatred from pedophiles to sociopaths
Sociopaths perform important functions in modern organisations. I don't like it anymore than you do but if the ship is going down somebody has to decide who gets a seat on a lifeboat.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
Out of curiosity, why don't we do this? Your first DWI should be a mulligan -- but the second, third, forth and fifth ones? When I worked in the insurance business I saw DMV reports of people who had that many DWIs. Why the fuck are we putting them back on the road?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
The guy set out to methodically groom what he thought was a 13 year old girl for sex. If you think a 30 year computer ban is too harsh, then fine, let's just throw him back in jail instead. Happy now?
The key word here is thought. Since when did we start prosecuting people for thought crimes? And precisely who is the victim here (other than the defendant, and possibly the taxpayer)?
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
No, but at least they can let them out. Corpses stay in the ground.
Problem is, we're doing a really bad job separating the folks that "just want to have fun" with the folks that want to rape and murder children. Sometimes there is "crossover" where someone that apparently just wanted to have fun turns around and kills their next conquest.
Since when did we start prosecuting people for thought crimes?
Since it became unconfortable telling parents that their child was killed by someone that it was known would re-offend since very nearly 100% do so.
The alternative would be just keeping them all in jail or killing them. Both are pretty expensive - the cheap solution is to find a way to make sure they can't re-offend, or if they start to display offending behavior that their parole is violated. Not anywhere near as certain as keeping them in prison or killing them, but much much cheaper.
i find the fact that you are comparing homosexuals to pedophiles to be disturbing.
Other than the object of attraction, how are they different?
I think counterproductive is probably a better way to describe it than unfair. If you expect someone to be released from jail and become somehow productive again, you can't really deprive them of the use of a computer these days. It may make sense for some sort of usage restriction, like you can only use the computer access at some sort of kiosk or supervised area or at work, but you can't own one or you can't have internet access or something like that.
However, a complete ban on usage of computers these days is like banning him from using a phone or the mail. Otherwise you might as well hand him an address for a homeless shelter and instructions on how to pick up his welfare checks, because he's going to be entirely useless to anyone from then on. I think the only thing worse than releasing a predator back into the community is having to pay taxes to keep said pedophile alive while he could be working for a living (and paying his own taxes).
You never did click on that link Anonymous Coward posted, did you?
fully developed mental facilities
Apparently you've never seen the Tyra Banks show?
One of the main reasons that a vehicle restriction is allowed is that there are alternatives; taxi, bus, bicycle, walk etc. What are the alternatives to computers? With a computer ban there is no possibility of any white collar job. Find one where you do not have to at lest read email.
Even finding a job at all would be a problem. The first thing an employment agency does is point one toward a computer and say "Do a job search". How many initial interviews include computer based testing? Many blue collar jobs require one to use a computer for time sheet entry.
By restricting a someone's employment opportunity severely there is only one means of survival; crime. Se we take a paedophile and push him towards a life of further crime. That is not rehabilitation.
Pedophilia does not happen when pedophiles have access to children. It happens when someone is a pedophile. And did it ever occur to you that there are pedophiles that wish they weren't pedophiles, and would never, ever act upon those urges? They're out there, and they deserve some god damned respect.
kids
Well there lies the problem.
Does kid mean 17? 15? Or perhaps whether you get shot or not should depend on what state (or country) you happen to be in when you do it?
Think back to when you were a teenage boy. Would you have been damaged forever if an older women had slept with you for some reason? *shrugs* seems like shooting the women might be a bit overkill.
Morpheus, God of Dreams.
Maybe the world is wrong. Here in Portugal drug usage has been decriminalized, and you can actually get free help as long as you stick very firmly with the rehabilitation program; you move to a "center" (just a house, really) in the country and you get counseling and help from psychologists. On the other hand, you have to work there to pay for your stay.
By not treating them like criminals drug usage has been dropping constantly, in spite of the Church's FUD.
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I suspect you're trolling, but I'll give an answer anyway.
The difference is in the power differential. With pedophilia, the relationship is between an adult and a child. The child hasn't the maturity to understand the relationship, to make a decision for him or herself about whether or not the relationship is right or wrong, and to meaningfully disagree with the adult. Because all the power in the relationship is in one side, the relationship cannot be balanced and healthy. When the child is prepubescent, he or she would not have the same physical attraction as an adult, and therefore cannot participate in the relationship at the same level. Pedophilia is equally wrong when the adult is male or female, or the child is male or female.
Homosexuality, on the other hand, is a relationship between two consenting adults who happen to be the same sex. They are both presumed to be mature enough to understand what a sexual relationship means, and to consent to be in one. Although one individual may have a somewhat more forceful personality than the other, both have the ability to influence the relationship, and to leave it if they choose.
So, when a male hockey coach has sex with the 9 year old boys on his team, that is reprehensible because it is pedophilia, not because it is homosexual.
The reason pedophilia is considered reprehensible is because it tends to leave the children emotionally damaged, unable to form proper relationships, and generally messed up for life.
There is one respect where they are similar. Most people are sexually attracted to people of the opposite sex who are similar to them. Mature adults are very different from children, so an adult who is sexually attracted to a child is very unusual, like someone who is sexually attracted to a dog or a toaster. Some research shows that about 1% of the population is primarily attracted to children, and about 10% is attracted to the same sex.
In summary: being attracted to the same sex is somewhat unusual (~10%), whereas being attracted to children is very unusual (~1%). Engaging in a sexual relationship with an adult of the same sex is no worse than (and no better than) a mature relationship between equals of the opposite sex. Engaging in a sexual relationship with a child is a highly uneven relationship which results in severe psychological damage to the child.
That's how they are different.
I hate it when I make a joke and I get modded "+5 insightful". Mod the stupid comments "funny", not "insightful", pleas
By your rationale, you should be lucky they let you have it back at all. In many countries such a case would be buried to spare embarrassment.
Just because justice cannot be 100% accurate does not mean that crimes should go unpunished. And I'm all for the death penalty for cases that are especially heinous, rehabilitation especially unlikely, and where the proof of guilt is especially compelling. Hardened criminals aren't afraid of jail, and true psychopaths aren't afraid of anything, but will alter their behavior to stay alive. To risk letting the worst of them harm a guard or even another prisoner is grossly irresponsible, and there is no more expensive prison time to taxpayers than solitary.
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Nothing could beat complete denial
- Emily Haines
Walking free is also a right, yet many people get life sentences. That's not really an argument, unless you're from a country like mine, where there a no life sentences.
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If you're going to RTFA, read the actual opinion. It's in Jurisprech (a dialect of legalese), but if you can wade through it it's actually quite enlightening as to not only how sentencing works in this country (it is both more and less arbitrary and subjective than most people believe), but also to the work judges do in balancing competing needs. It's actually a pretty good read, and at 22 pages (with lots of whitespace and a rigid formatting convention that most C programmers would envy, opinions are not typographically dense) not even all that long... especially given that there are 2 concurring opinions and a thorough introduction.
Oddly enough, the judiciary, who are without a doubt the most lawyerish branch of government, also tend to write the most readable laws (and yes, their opinions ARE law... that's neither un-Constitutional nor new).
Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
No, but at least they can let them out. Corpses stay in the ground.
Tell that to Jesus!
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"
- Mahamta Ghandi
The law has to be concerned with miscarriages of justice, thats why the "eye for an eye" (or rape for a rape) will never work.
Wait! Whats a sig?
You've described child abuse, i was asking about pedophilia itself as an orientation.
Homosexuality isn't a relationship, it's an attraction to the same sex, a sexual orientation in the mind.
On a few different levels, this reminds me of the the recent arguments towards 3 strikes and loss of internet access for pirating files.
Anyone who thinks someone should lose their balls for pedophilia would most likely also agree that loss of internet for file sharing is as just.
And any judge who thinks that loss of internet is too harsh of a punishment for pedophilia must also agree that loss of internet for filing sharing is too harsh.
Unless the judge thinks that file sharing is worse then pedophilia that is.
Given that some 5% of males are gay, it seems a bit ridiculous to call it an abnormal any more than calling ginger hair abberant. Calling it a 'mistake' is simply flamebait. Also, given that non-reproducing males offer a survival benefit for their own genetics through support of their siblings offspring (the so-called gay uncle), I would disagree that homossexuality is an inherently gene-terminal condition. In fact, in cases where resources are tight, more gay males would increase population fitness by focussing more resources on fewer children and so increasing their survival potential.
Also, many gay and bi males still want offspring and produce them, even though their primary attraction is to other males. I know a few gay/bi people who have successfully reared children.
And don't forget - there are heterosexual pedophiles too. The notion that homosexuals are more likely to mollest children was FUD spread by the religious right in the late 80s and early 90s to whip up public vehemence against gay people.
Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
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I am of the opinion that if you restrict someone to a life of poverty--punishing them in a way that guarantees that they can't get virtually any straight job--you will create a lifetime criminal. We need to have a solid system of re-entry after someone has paid their debt to society, and do as much as we can to help them become productive people.
Think about who is paying the cost of making sure someone a criminal for life...that's gotta hurt the tax wallet.
Perhaps it would be better not to sentence innocent people in the first place. It's pretty hard to argue about punishments as long as you can't even trust the system with that.
Ok, you invent the technique that only allows the conviction of guilty parties. The only one that currently exists is to have no law, therefore no guilt and no convictions. Total anarchy sounds like a pretty bad idea to me.
That doesn't mean that our system is perfect, or even that it doesn't have a few major problems. It will always have some innocent people punished for crimes they didn't commit. It will take a truly significant "advancement" to change that. (some of those possible advancements would make Orwell cringe.)
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
In Canada we just have a separate law about using positions of authority to take advantage of underage persons. This way the age of consent can be low (14 yrs until very recent) so when the 19 yr old goes with a 15 yr old at a party on the 15 yr old advance there is no crime.
On the flip side if you are in a position of authority over an underaged person and have sex with them you are pretty much guilty.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
30 years is actually an extreme version of a very common form of "things that are quite clearly permanent". If someone innocent spends 6 months in jail, it is just as permanent, equally unjust, only less damaging. They will never regain that time.
Similarly, someone who spends untold hours over several years fighting off a frivolous lawsuit (and earning the money to pay the lawyer's fees) has permanently lost time from their lives that they will never get back. It doesn't take criminal law to cause irreparable damage. Civil law does so regularly. (just less spectacularly)
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
The only source that says he existed is a single book, compiled from papers that come from almost a century later, that further contains all manner of information that can't be trusted - magic, superstition, etc. That doesn't make his existence likely.
No. We only have copies of the scrolls, codexes, etc. These all date from a hundred, or more, years after the time the story is placed in. There's no evidence whatsoever that there are four true stories. The book is full of fiction - magic, etc. - it is obviously a fabrication. Just because there are four chapters that purport to tell the story from four perspectives doesn't mean that any one of those perspectives is any more valid than the magical story of making wine out of water, etc.
The bottom line is that there is no contemporaneous evidence for the existence of Jesus. No tax records, nothing about the legal issues, nothing about the costs of the supposed execution, not one darned thing. All there is, is the NT, and it in turn isn't from the same time as the story. Every historical mention that talks about Christians (and what a pain in the neck they were, usually... some things just don't change) ...all of these mentions are about the Christian groups/cults of the day... not about Jesus himself.
People talking or writing about something -- even in a very emphatic and passionate manner -- is not evidence of the thing. Look at the Heaven's Gate cult. Those buffoons went so far as to off themselves... for an entirely imaginary premise. So the historical evidence that bands of Christians were running around causing havoc in the mid 50's is in no way a slam-dunk that there was a Jesus at all.
The only certainties about Christianity are that the leather and papyrus scraps that form the source for the NT are from 150 AD or later; that they are either each and every one a copy, and therefore we have no originals (this is the position of most reputable scholars, btw) or else they were created 150 AD or later; that there is no contemporaneous information about Jesus at all; and that the NT contains stories that are scientifically nonsensical.
Now, if that leads you to think that Jesus's existence is "likely"... well, you're one gullible person, that's all I can say. There's better book-evidence for the existence of Jack Ryan, CIA agent. At least the books that he is in don't have any magical malarkey in them. They do tell the story from multiple perspectives; they do refer to people, cities and geographies we can recognize; they do refer to events that actually happened... all of these places where bible apologists try to stand... but Jack Ryan stories are still 100% fiction. Odds hugely favor that Jesus is also fiction.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
There are heterosexuals who rape and take advantage of others, does that mean that heterosexual attraction in itself is a problem?
I happen to be gay myself, and I certainly dislike having my orientation compared to child molestation, but that is not a good excuse to continue to pretend that every pedophile is some inherently sick person who hurt little children. Some of them do, many of them would rather kill themselves than hurting the very people they love. To pretend that their feelings differ in origin or nature than those the rest of us have is nothing but self-righteous moralizing prejudice. It is unfortunately true that it will be hard for many pedophiles to deal with their situation, but to stigmatize them as mentally ill merely to justify my own sexual orientation is just something I will not do, no matter how effective such an argument may be to the ears of those who won't think about it for a while.
Theres a world of difference between having feelings for somebody you can't have, and taking advantage of them for your own pleasure, and the way our society treats pedophiles is downright uncivilized. What makes it even worse is the "witch-hunt" like way in which pointing this out to people results in suspicion and insinuation that you may be a pedophile yourself. If it was not for people speaking about how others were mistreated by society then where would we be today? I'm certainly thankful some brave people in history spoke out when we were treated in a similar manner, thus meaning I can now be open about being attracted to women without being perceived as mentally ill because of it.
There is a difference.
Many pedophiles go without Heck, many gay men and straight men are celibate as well. Celibate pedophiles are still pedophiles.
Many child molesters are not pedophiles. They are motivated by power or other issues besides romance or their own orgasm.
In most countries, pedophilia is not a crime. In the few that it is a crime, it's the very definition of a thought-crime.
In most or all countries, child molestation is a crime, as it should be.
By the way, there are so-called "adult" relationships that are very power-imbalanced. Whether it's the boss with his secretary, or a sophisticated person with someone who can vote but has the emotional maturity of a middle school student, the result is the same: An emotionally unequal but usually perfectly legal relationship.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Most people do get their licenses taken away after the first or second one. I don't know in other states but I know in NY if you get your license taken away, it's quite difficult to get it back. Off course, then you get the problem of people driving around WITHOUT licenses.
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