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The Short Arm of the Law

mindbrane writes "CNN takes a look at when companies are too big for the legal system to handle. Quoting: 'Prosecutors said that excluding Pfizer would most likely lead to Pfizer's collapse, with collateral consequences: disrupting the flow of Pfizer products to Medicare and Medicaid recipients, causing the loss of jobs including those of Pfizer employees who were not involved in the fraud, and causing significant losses for Pfizer shareholders. ... So Pfizer and the feds cut a deal. Instead of charging Pfizer with a crime, prosecutors would charge a Pfizer subsidiary, Pharmacia & Upjohn Co. Inc. ... As a result, Pharmacia & Upjohn Co. Inc., the subsidiary, was excluded from Medicare without ever having sold so much as a single pill. And Pfizer was free to sell its products to federally funded health programs.' IBM may have cast the mold for this sort of thing in its 1970s antitrust case, but the recurrence of similar cases speaks to ongoing concerns for legal systems."

29 of 336 comments (clear)

  1. Thomas Jefferson said it best: by nuclearpenguins · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country."

    Too bad no one listened to him.

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    1. Re:Thomas Jefferson said it best: by eiapoce · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Easy solution, hold the CEOs accoutable for fellonies carried out by corporations. And carry also on some death penalty if needed, you'll see things change in a snap.

    2. Re:Thomas Jefferson said it best: by Xyrus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Anyone else here think that we are not in a corporatocracy yet? Events like this are just plain fucking insulting.

      You don't even need to destroy the company. Just take every asshat involved in the fraud and lock them away for life. Or better yet, take a chunk of their patent portfolio and invalidate it, then forbid the company from downsizing anyone below a certain level/pay grade.

      Why doesn't anyone have the balls to put some HURT on these assholes? This is like punishing a two year old for sneaking a cookie by letting him keep the cookie.

      ~X~

      --
      ~X~
    3. Re:Thomas Jefferson said it best: by causality · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Maybe you missed it, but he's not officially inspirational anymore. (Last paragraph.)

      That paragraph was amusing, in a way. It reads:

      Cynthia Dunbar, a lawyer from Richmond who is a strict constitutionalist and thinks the nation was founded on Christian beliefs, managed to cut Thomas Jefferson from a list of figures whose writings inspired revolutions in the late 18th century and 19th century, replacing him with St. Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin and William Blackstone. (Jefferson is not well liked among conservatives on the board because he coined the term “separation between church and state.”)

      I laughed at that. Don't these "conservatives" realize that the separation of church and state is better for the state AND the church? The best way to destroy the religion they so cling to would be to intermingle it with petty politics.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    4. Re:Thomas Jefferson said it best: by Vancorps · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm sorry you feel that 30 million fellow citizens and counting without health insurance suddenly being able to get insurance is such a burden for you when you probably already have health insurance and so the only way it will affect you is by lowering your premiums, oh the corruption!

      While you have a point that power corrupts you chose a very poor example. How about warrant-less wiretaps? There's a good example, suspending habius corpus for prisoners? I have no idea how it became acceptable to torture based on how a person is classified.

      It's better to focus on abuses of power as those abuses have the ability to affect us all! If they can justify torture for one instance they start down the road of SOP for more cases. The citizenry should not be afraid of the police but that is where we have found ourselves.

      The lack of accountability is where the real problem is. Pfizer getting off is bullshit, there are re-mediation routes that don't have to end in people not getting their medication and that still hold corporate leadership accountable. If corporations are people then they can be thrown in prison just like people or they can have wages garnished until the punishment is met.

    5. Re:Thomas Jefferson said it best: by Danse · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't know who these conservatives are that do not like Jefferson, I have never met any of them. I also do not know why they would be pissed about the term "separation between church and state" unless it is because it is being used to people rights they had until recently. Some of these rights were to prey in school, some schools were outright banning religious material altogether due to the separation between church and state.

      I have no idea how anyone could be prevented from praying in school. Teachers are not allowed to lead prayers, of course, and you do it on your own time, but I don't see how that can be construed as a violation of anyone's rights.

      But hey, that's not Jefferson's fault, it's the idiots who can't grasp a concept. An idiot like this was the guy who sued because his kid had to learn the pledge of allegiance in school citing "separation of church and state".

      Maybe because some idiots back in the 50s decided to mix a little religion in with the pledge and added "under God" to it. Not everyone believes in God, and I think it's a clear violation to make kids recite anything that has a religious component to it.

      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    6. Re:Thomas Jefferson said it best: by Vancorps · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't agree with being forced to buy insurance but I understand the need for such a provision which is following the auto industry insurance model.

      The problem every one of those arguments fail to address is the fact that there will be a much larger pool of people paying into a system and far fewer trips to the emergency room for the uninsured. I haven't seen any valid arguments for why premiums would be higher given that insurance companies would money to compensate for the sick people they now cover. Of course one trip to a doctor to properly dress a wound versus an emergency trip a week later with a staph infection is much cheaper to treat.

      Those who cannot afford to pay are given discounts. Refusing insurance just makes no sense, but there are lots of people trying to make arguments that preventative care is unnecessary despite the obvious benefits like treating and dealing with a heart attack versus detecting high blood pressure before the big event. Like finding cancer earlier versus finding it late stage. There is a human cost that few want to talk about.

      Personally, I can afford healthcare, I have seen my premiums more than quadruple in the six years I have worked for this company. Something has to be done to change things as insurance companies are not going to do anything unless they are forced to. I am happy to afford a $300 a year hike which is only $25 per month if it means my 9 year old niece can now have health insurance despite her mom having an under control thyroid condition. For now my sister skipped being insured so that her kids could have insurance but that is unacceptable to me given how well she takes care of her condition. There are millions in similar situations and we are the only industrialised nation that has let it stand and for what reason?

      This is all besides the point that this is a poor example of corruption and is more an example of the ineptitude of our representatives.

  2. Re:Money is power by blackraven14250 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You don't need step #4.

  3. Prosecuting corporations for crimes is asinine. by John+Hasler · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And is a cop-out by prosecutors. Crimes are committed by individual people and that is who should be prosecuted for them. And no, there is no shield, exemption, or veil protecting employees of a corporation against prosecution for crimes they commit on the job.

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    1. Re:Prosecuting corporations for crimes is asinine. by Marc_Hawke · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's what I was going to say.

      When an individual is convicted of a 'hacking' crime, the punishment is often, 'No access to computers.'
      When an male is convicted of rape, there is often a cry for him to be castrated.

      I say when an individual is convicted of mis-using his corporation and corporate power that he have it be removed from him, (as well as any profits he might have earned at the time.)

      Follow the signature trails, and get the people on both sides. The people responsible for oversight need to be held liable and the people who accepted the order need to be held liable. The further away from the central figure, the less their individual punishment would be. (However, emphasis goes UP, not down. We don't want any sacrificial lambs.)

      Instead of a whole corporation paying for the actions of it's management, the management pays, and the punishment for the corporation is simply dealing with a management shift. (Hopefully a more carefully ethical one this time.)

      --
      --Welcome to the Realm of the Hawke--
    2. Re:Prosecuting corporations for crimes is asinine. by andrea.sartori · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Are you saying that by no means should a corporation should be held as liable for crimes? This is what businesses and corporations are constantly trying to achieve, especially the big ones. Commit crimes on a large scale, and then just find some moron among your employees to use as a scapegoat. No, please, no.

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      Mostly harmless.
    3. Re:Prosecuting corporations for crimes is asinine. by ffreeloader · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No. That's not what he's saying. He's saying, and I agree with him completely, is that it's people making these decisions, and it's those people who need to be held responsible. Find them and execute them--figuratively speaking of course--on a regular basis and this problem of corrupt decision making inside corporations, and government regulatory agencies, will disappear in a hurry.

      Hold these jackasses accountable.

      --
      "while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." de Tocqueville
    4. Re:Prosecuting corporations for crimes is asinine. by laughingcoyote · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "I was just following orders" does not work. Ever. Even when disobedience might mean death, let alone just getting fired.

      Now, if you want to pass a law requiring triple damages for employees who are discharged based on refusal to follow an illegal or unethical request, and establish a system whereby they can get that redress without a drug out court battle, I'll be behind you 100%. But if you perform the unethical act, you are responsible for doing so, regardless of whether it was your idea or not. The people who "gave the order" are also responsible, but to avoid complicity yourself, you must disobey it and blow the whistle.

      The only case where this would not be possible is if, for example, ten people are each instructed to do one thing, each of which in itself seems innocuous but when put together add up to something sinister. Since it would not be reasonable in this case for the individuals to know what they're doing is unethical, they could not be expected to disobey and/or blow the whistle. In a scenario like that, only those who developed, approved, and/or orchestrated the scheme are responsible. But most of the time, that's not the case:

      "Oh, come on, John, you know how flighty investors can get, and there's really no need to worry them. If we just count things a little differently, I'm sure we can ease their concerns..."
      "Well, sure, there is a safety flaw in the product, but at this point it appears that it would be cheaper to pay off the lawsuits than to fix it."
      "Well, we want to cut the workforce by half, but not deal with unemployment. Go find even the most minor flaws in whatever someone's doing, and say they were terminated for cause."

      Anyone who goes along with these practices is responsible for them. People need to grow a backbone. Maybe if we start throwing some people in jail, people will worry less about having to job hunt and more about doing it right. The people you're helping cheat (or in some cases even kill, see the exploding Pinto case) may have families to feed, too. There's absolutely no excuse for not blowing the whistle when you become aware of something like this.

      --
      To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
    5. Re:Prosecuting corporations for crimes is asinine. by Yaa+101 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That is called risk, starting a company or having stocks is risk taking business.
      You do not have the right to be exempt of risks.

    6. Re:Prosecuting corporations for crimes is asinine. by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, being able to profit from illegal acts while being shielded from the consequences is a big motivator. But I don't see why we should allow this to happen. The "corporate veil" encourages illegal acts and should be abolished.

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  4. patents by blackraven14250 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Maybe they should rewrite the rules for big pharma so that if they're convicted of doing something outrageously illegal, the patents they own which were involved in the crime become public domain. That way, they will not risk a damn thing when it comes to marketing and promotion of their products, and there's no way that suing a company will screw up the nation's health care system.

  5. Rule of Law by headkase · · Score: 5, Insightful

    By letting Pfizer get away with this the US government has set an example. There is no reason to obey the law if you have enough tentacles. They could have chosen the high-road and smacked them down and then out of the rubble a new generation of companies would have emerged that would have had reason to obey the law. No, instead corruption is institutionalized.

    --
    Shh.
  6. Personal Incorporation? by Manip · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Can I incorporate myself? I was born a human and in our society we're second class citizens, let's look at some facts:
      - We have to pay tax
      - We have to follow the local laws
      - We have to deal with issues like morality and ethnics
      - We are second class citizens in terms of political power (even as a group)

    Also, if I put on enough weight can I become "too big to fail?"

  7. Too big to sue by PlanetX+00 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Is this just the latest application of the Golden Rule? He who has the gold makes the rules...

  8. The other side of the coin to Regulatory Capture by Burz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...which is a sign of a failed state. Regulatory Capture is when government agencies become run primarily for the special interests they are supposed to regulate.

    This CNN article shows how corporations can become too big to punish (which is similar to the oft cited "too big to fail"). The same conditions which put monopolistic corps and cartels beyond market accountability (lack of competition for those at the top of an industry) probably add to the effect of being "too big to nail" at the same time.

    Corporatism has emerged in our society and become monopolistic and wildly out of control. The best remedy we may have is stringent application of antitrust law (break 'em up), although other measures (such as limiting their spending and ties with the media) will probably be necessary as well.

  9. Jobs? What Jobs? by methano · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I don't think we need to worry about the Fed causing job loss by doing anything to Pfizer. Pfizer is doing a great job by themselves. Just ask the former employees of Park-Davis, Warner-Lambert, Pharmacia, Upjohn, Searle, Wyeth and too many to mention small bio-techs which were dissolved on acquisition. For chemists, Pfizer is a job loss machine.

  10. That's the real story here... by raehl · · Score: 4, Insightful

    While one may not agree with the particulars, this seems like a pretty standard case of prosecutorial discretion. The reality of the law is that the maximum penalty prescribed by law - and sometimes even the minimum penalty prescribed by law - is not appropriate for the crime committed. And prosecutors plead out criminals for sentences less than those allowed by law all the time.

    And in this case, some sales agents in the army of sales agents misrepresented one product out of an arsenal of products. Ok? Of course not. Deserving of a big fine, and probably one larger than the company got? Sure.

    But cutting off access to Medicare/Medicaid for the entire company, even if it is an available legal penalty, is not the appropriate legal penalty in this case.

    The real problems here are that:

    1) The law is not appropriate. A better penalty would be loss of patent protection on a lucrative drug, or 10x profits made on the drug that was mis-marketed.
    2) Those selling drugs in a manner that can harm patients are not personally liable for their actions. If your doctor prescribes you a drug that they should know might harm or kill you, they are liable. And if a pharma rep orchestrates or participates in a sales campaign designed to hide the hazards of a drug, they should also be personally liable. If all the pharma reps knew that off-label marketing got 30 days in jail the practice would be curbed considerably.
    3) Corporations are designed to separate business assets and actions from personal assets and actions. There is value to this. But using shell corporations to protect parent corporations seems to have gotten a bit crazy.

    One and two could be fixed by competent legislation. Three is probably a ship that has sailed.

  11. Corporations are people, like it or not. by elucido · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If we treat Corporations as persons in any context, they must be treated as persons in every context.

  12. The step by step solution: by laughingcoyote · · Score: 3, Insightful
    • Identify companies which would have a catastrophic effect due to their size if they were to fail for any reason.
    • Develop a step by step plan to make an orderly split of those companies into truly independent, separate companies that are not "too big to fail". Absolutely no exceptions for any reason, even if some temporary pain will result.
    • Split them up.
    • Ensure that antitrust law is updated to prevent ever creating a "Too Big to Fail" again.
    --
    To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
  13. Re:The other side of the coin to Regulatory Captur by Znork · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The best remedy we may have is stringent application of antitrust law (break 'em up)

    The problem in this case stems directly from pro-trust law. Without patents, there wouldn't be a problem with kicking Pfizer out of Medicare (nor would they wield monopoly-level revenue that underlies issues here ranging from buying doctors to making the legal system its bitch).

    There are much better, and vastly more efficient, ways to pay for research than these monopoly rights whose side effects are damaging to the free market, the political system and the legal system all at the same time.

  14. Re:You can get away with murder. by falconwolf · · Score: 3, Informative

    Especially if you're a private military contractor in Iraq.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5xT1DGJMoQ

    DynCorp was operating like that in South America throughout the 1990s. These private military contractors are not held accountable, which is why they're used. They can get away with things the military would have a hard tyme getting away with. And I bet that's one reason Bush pushed to privatize the military. About the only way these corporations can be held accountable is via the Alien Tort Claims Act, which Bush tried to get rid of.

    Falcon

  15. Re:The other side of the coin to Regulatory Captur by Blue+Stone · · Score: 5, Insightful

    >Without patents, there wouldn't be a problem with kicking Pfizer out of Medicare

    In that case, it sounds like a better way of achieving justice would be to seize their patent assets (some or all) and then nullify them.

    --
    Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
  16. penalizing stockholders by falconwolf · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why shareholders aren't punished for the actions of a corporation is completely beyond me.

    The problem with that is that you're penalizing all stockholders, even those who try to clean up the corporation. Or are you one of those who believes in guilt by association? One of the most effective ways to change corporations today is via stockholder activism. Sure investors can use socially responsible investing but that's what shareholder activism is. Of course my way, corporate charter revocation also hurts activist investors.

    Falcon

  17. Re:The other side of the coin to Regulatory Captur by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I have a better solution, one that provides better self regulation...

    Corporate Death Penalty.

    Corporations are a creation of the state, and exist only under permission of the state. The solution for dealing with such abuse of laws is to have the state dissolve the corporation and auction all the assets, and release all "intellectual property" back to the public as public domain.

    If we actually enforced corporate death penalty, the company's owners (stock holders) would be much more careful about how the company they own is operated.

    No company is too big to fail, and failure is the only alternative we have. The whole idea that failure is not an option is itself a really bad idea.

    --
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