Another Contender For the Land Speed Record

We've been following developments with the British-led Bloodhound SSC, a jet car aiming to hit 1,000 mph in 2011 and shatter the land speed record. Now reader Thea Chard writes in about a rival project from Washington state, one aiming at 800 mph before the end of 2010 — still plenty fast enough to break the record. "For the past 12 years Ed Shadle, 68, Keith Zanghi, 55, and their 44-man team have been racing to break the world land speed record with the North American Eagle, a converted 1957 F-104 Starfighter 'turbojet car.' Although the team is rushing to beat out their biggest contender, Bloodhound SSC from Great Britain, whose team leader holds the previous land speed record and has secured much more financial support for the project, Shadle and Zanghi hope to run the Eagle at around 800 mph later this year, breaking the sound barrier and setting a new world record for fastest land vehicle."

Comments

Feels like cheating

[the_other_chewey]

I still think that calling all those aircraft-that-just-don't-lift-off cars is cheating. Keeping them on
the ground is in itself quite a feat, I don't deny that at all - but to be called a car, they should be
propelled by their wheels' friction on the ground, not by jet engines and rockets.

I'm actually much more impressed by something like the Dieselmax, even if it is much slower.

Re:Feels like cheating

[sznupi]

...especially when contender is a modified jet fighter, not a vehicle built mostly from the ground up.

Re:Feels like cheating

[91degrees]

There is a record for wheel driven as well. There's room for both of these in the record books. And it's not like it's quite as simple as strapping a big thrust engine on the back of a roller skate so it's worth it as an exercise in engineering.

Re:Feels like cheating

[hughperkins]

Agreed.

But even the Dieselmax can't start on its own: they get a tractor (!) to bring it up to 30mpg, before it can engage first gear.

Which is fine and all, but personally I'd be more impressed with something that has that additional gear onboard. It does add weight, it will make the top speed slightly slower, and that is, I feel, why it is important.

Re:Feels like cheating

[Malc]

And how is that different to say Formula 1? All the high speed cars have little to do with the real world where we have speed limits, imperfect road surfaces and require time to react to pedestrians as we come around blind corners.

Re:Feels like cheating

[stiggle]

I used to follow the North American Eagle when they were originally developing their car, but they came across as whining kids complaining about the Brits coming over to break the records in the US and taking the technology back with them, which is odd seeing as Thrust SSC was on the desert at the same time as the Spirit of America team and shared stuff with them. (The SoA should have had the time slot for the run when SSC broke the record, but they let the Brits use it as their car was performing better and they had a chance at the record).

Probably just complaining because the Thrust SSC data wasn't made available to them to copy - although the Bloodhound SSC data is being made publically available. The thing to remember about Bloodhound is that it is a project primarily to get kids interested in science & engineering again and breaking 1000mph is just an extra.

Re:Feels like cheating

[somersault]

It's more fun watching fast cars navigate corners than watching fast cars go in a straight line. These cars are impressive, but not amazingly entertaining unless they crash. Actually I think the same of F1 when compared to stuff like Touring Cars, DTM and Rally Driving..

Re:Feels like cheating

[MrKaos]

I agree with you. Strapping a set of wheels on a rocket motor is pointless, even though the technical challenges are probably fantastic. In fact, generally speaking, breaking a record just for the sake of being in the Guinness book of records is pointless.

Serco, those guys are just everywhere. The biggest company you've never heard of.

I could understand if the technology they use to achieve the record could be reused some place else, like paving the way to faster high-speed trains for instance, but all they seem to do is apply clever design to make the body as non-lifting as possible, and use big fins to plant the thing firmly on the ground. Nothing earth-shattering, impressive though it may be.

I think this is the first time they have tried putting the jet engine on top of the rocket motor, in a car. The variances in air pressure on the uneven ground may make the research into the control systems that keep the nose on the car worthwhile.

Just sayin.

Re:Feels like cheating

[JasterBobaMereel]

...the land speed record for a wheeled vehicle is 10,400 km/h (6,462 mph) ..... on rails, unmanned

Railed vehicles can go much faster than free wheeled vehicles and the manned speed record was for a railed vehicle ... the only reason they stopped the manned tests was that they did not have a reason for them to be manned ...

Like the steam car record and the diesel car record the "land speed record" is very artificial, many vehicles have gone faster on land, many have gone much faster manned above it ...

Re:Feels like cheating

[somersault]

Well, they do tend to have traction control and possibly even active stability control in modern F1 cars. They have massive slick tyres too so easing back on the throttle will quickly give you your grip back if you get into a power-slide (and that's basically what traction control and stability control do when they detect things are going slightly squiffy).

Counter-steering also becomes hard wired if you do enough sliding around in real life, or play enough computer games ;) I panicked and stomped on the brakes the first time I slid on snow last winter, but when I started to learn the limits of my car (only just got it last summer, it's the first car I've owned that has rear wheel drive), I had a lot of fun and learned to anticipate and provoke it then go with it rather than fighting it :) You react to things a lot more quickly if you're actually expecting them (undergrad Psych tutorials ftw).

Re:Feels like cheating

[richardablitt]

Formula 1 hasn't had traction control for the past couple of years, although they've gone back to slick tyres in an attempt to bring back overtaking.

Re:Feels like cheating

[OzPeter]

I'm actually much more impressed by something like the Dieselmax, even if it is much slower.

I just read that and now I am impressed. 350mph, 2.7 tonne vehicle (yeah I'm mixing units) and a fuel tank size of 9 litres. And according to that article they only limited themselves to 350 as a safety precaution for the tires, and they weren't even in top gear!

Re:Feels like cheating

[Skynyrd]

There are many different record categories recognized by various sanctioning bodies. The ones that would probably interest you the most are the "wheel driven" or "piston driven" records, and not the "overall fastest".

Wheel driven records have been set by turbine engines, with the shaft running into a differential, and driving a set of wheels.
Don Vesco has the record at 458.443

The piston driven records are set by a car with one or more HUGE V-8 engines.
Al Teague went 405.976 in one such creation.

They are also over 300 mph slower than the the jet powered cars. There are no rocket powered cars in real competition for world records at the moment,

Re:Feels like cheating

[Skynyrd]

I agree with you. Strapping a set of wheels on a rocket motor is pointless, even though the technical challenges are probably fantastic. In fact, generally speaking, breaking a record just for the sake of being in the Guinness book of records is pointless.

So is playing baseball or watching a movie. Humans with extra time and money have hobbies. It could be anything from knitting to painting to riding bicycles to setting land speed records.

Setting land speed records isn't your hobby, but it doesn't actually mean that it's "pointless".

Re:Feels like cheating

[Tet]

There are no rocket powered cars in real competition for world records at the moment,

Apart from Bloodhound SSC, you mean? It has a jet engine, that's true. But that's only to take it up to 300mph or so. The rocket is needed to take it up to 1000mph. Although they're not looking to set any records, the Laffin-gas car is an interesting pure rocket car. They're only aiming for 400mph or so, but that's still pretty fast, particularly on their relatively small budget, and they have a nice setup that allows a fairly good degree of control. Not least, the ability to shut it off rather than having to wait until it runs out of fuel :-)

Re:Feels like cheating

[budgenator]

Unmanned railed vehicle (rocket sled) 10,400 km/h (6,462 mph)

New speed record last week - 293 km/h

[buchner.johannes]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6311K220100402

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOGX73P8RqM

Not the same race

[verloren]

Bloodhound-SSC isn't trying to break the land speed record, it's trying to break 1,000mph (which will, incidentally, give it the land speed record). Clearly Eagle needs to beat Bloodhound to achieve their goal, but it doesn't really matter for what Bloodhound is doing whether Eagle succeeds or fails. Hence they're not really in the same race.

An airplane?

[Thanshin]

They should've used an intercontinental ballistic missile.

Just put it horizontal, add some wheels and sit on it.

Screaming "YeeeeeHa!" as it starts is optional.

The hat isn't.

Obligatory JATO car reference

[Alex Belits]

Apparently the origin of that whole thing.

The real competition is the Aussies

[OzPeter]

When the story about the Brits was run I pointed out *then* that there were 3 groups trying to break the land speed record. The Yanks will be doomed to be "also ran's" as the real competition to the Brits is the Aussies with the 1000+mph "car" Aussie Invader

I'd plead for people to do *any* research on a story, but this is /. (and kdawson btw what is a "reaer", as mentioned in the summary. Is spell check too fucking hard now?)

Tribute to a genius

[kurt555gs]

Remember, the aerodynamic shape of the F-104 was designed by Clarence "Kelly" Johnson with a slide rule. No computers at all. Actually he designed the whole thing in about a month without any computer modeling.

I wonder what it would take now, to do what he did.

Let's not forget some of Kelly Johnson's other little projects like the P-38 Lightning, and the SR-71.

Re:Tribute to a genius

[Tx]

"I wonder what it would take now, to do what he did."

To design a pointy tube with wings? Especially one that was a death trap (nicknamed the "Flying Coffin"), that Lockheed had to pay massive illegal bribes to get anyone to buy? I'm guessing there are harder things to do.

Re:Tribute to a genius

[R2.0]

Regarding your first point, it should be noted that the postwar Luftwaffe was NOT the best air force out there, and was using the F-104 outside of it's original design intent - it was intended to be a high-speed, high-altitude interceptor, and not fly low altitude dogfights. The Canadians had some of the same problems. Other air forces had much better experiences with the plane.

That being said, should the Germans have bought it? Probably not. But the bribes Lockheed gave at the time weren't illegal, as you state - the FCPA was passed after they took place.

The F-104 was a pretty radical design which went counter to American design trends at the time. It was small, wickedly fast, and unforgiving, much like European sports cars of the era. But the US designs were trending toward larger and heavier, sacrificing maneuverability for protection and increasing speed by application of more power, similar to the 60's domestic musclecars. Witness the F-111, originally conceived as a fighter but it grew so heavy that it can only be used as a bomber/ground attack plane. It's small wonder the Italians seemed to love the F-104

Re:Tribute to a genius

[DerekLyons]

Remember, the aerodynamic shape of the F-104 was designed by Clarence "Kelly" Johnson with a slide rule. No computers at all. Actually he designed the whole thing in about a month without any computer modeling.

So what? It was a *very* simple aircraft with a fairly undemanding set of performance specifications - go fast in a straight line, carry a couple of missiles, shoot down bombers. (Not to mention every other project of the day was built with slide rules and without computers or computer modeling.)
 

I wonder what it would take now, to do what he did.

Probably like designing a computer from that era, it could be done in a few days by a grad student on his laptop. But nobody would bother other than a grad student with time on his hands, because there really isn't much of a point to doing so.
 
Don't get me wrong, Kelly Johnson was a very gifted engineer, but much of the 'cult' that surrounds him is because people rarely understand the context and that he worked in a very different era than today.

Re:Tribute to a genius

[BJ_Covert_Action]

I wonder what it would take now, to do what he did.

A proper education for our young engineers and scientists.

Re:Safety.

[OzPeter]

The original ejector seat in the F-104 was designed to eject downward because of the high T tail. If you lost the engine on takeoff you had to roll it to survive ejection. Don't know if they changed that later.

According to this F-104 Ejection Seat the reason for firing downwards was because they didn't have powerful enough ejectors to go upwards (which would help clearing the tail) but later on when they were available then upwards egress was used.

Choice of F-104

[JumboMessiah]

The choice of the F-104 is by no accident. It's low altitude performance is well known.

Darryl Greenamyer's Red Baron F-104 did 998 mph (mach 1.30) officially and 1013 mph (mach 1.33) unofficially. At less than 300 ft, back in the '70's. The J79 has to be water/alcohol injected during runs like these, otherwise it will exceed it's maximum inlet operating temps.

Say what you want about the F-104, but it was built to fly straight and fast, intercept and shoot down bombers. Another work or artfrom Kelly Johnson and company IMHO. Especially considering the timeframe.