Red-Light Camera Ticket Revenue and Short Yellows

NicknamesAreStupid writes "A Fort Meyers news station reports a nerdy husband getting his wife out of a red-light camera ticket by proving the light was set with too short of a yellow. Then he goes out and proves that nearly 90% of the lights are set an average of about 20% too short. Is this a local incident, or have local governments nationwide found a new revenue source? What puzzles me is how a single picture can tell if you ran a light. If you are in the intersection before the light turns red, you have not run it, even if it takes a little while to clear it (say to yield to an unexpected obstacle). Wouldn't you need two pictures — one just before the light went red showing you are not in the intersection, and another after the light went red showing you in the intersection?"

Comments

Old news.

[rueger]

Seriously, red-light cameras have nothing to do with safety and everything to do with money making. Often the contracts with the company providing the cameras sets a specific maximum length for the yellow light. Making it longer would bring penalties to the City.

Don't recall the specifics, but at least one study found that lengthening the yellow light acually reduced accidents more than installing cameras.

The study noted here actually found that accidents went up after installing the damned things. Then again it was Florida...

Re:Old news.

[rueger]

Also check out The Journal of Trauma: Injury, Infection, and Critical Care, which last month reported that:

Despite reducing the number of cars entering this intersection during a red light, RLC do not seem to prevent traffic collisions at this monitored intersection. Alternative means of injury prevention must be investigated.

Two pictures... and then some!

[Siberwulf]

Some cities go a step further than just a picture. They will give you a picture before, a picture after and a 12-second video of you running the light. All that information can be found online via a URL given to you with your citation.

http://www.plano.gov/Departments/Police/RedLightCameras/Pages/default.aspx

Re:-1 False Assumption

[NormalVisual]

No, it's not that simple. Florida law says you may not *enter* the intersection when the light is red. It's perfectly legal to enter on a yellow, and to be in the intersection on the following red.

//not a lawyer, not legal advice, etc.

Re:-1 False Assumption

[Colonel Korn]

That's Florida though, it has its own Fark tag for a reason. In every state that I've lived in you have to be clear of the intersection when the red light comes on or God help you if a cop is there cuz you're about to get butthurt.

Legal in CA, MI, NY, and CO, too.

Re:-1 False Assumption

[Miguelito]

In California, if any part of your car enters the intersection while the light is still yellow, then it's "your intersection" for as long as it takes you to get clear of it.

Technically incorrect. If you enter an intersection, even on green, and cannot clearly/reasonably exit the intersection before the red light (usually meaning traffic is piled up in front of you) then you can be cited. Presumably it's for blocking traffic vs running the red, but it might be up to the officer and/or judge.

Not the same situation, but it would apply on a yellow if you cross the line before red, but there were cars in front of you keeping you from exiting the intersection before it did turn red.

Re:if you're in the intersection and it's red

[bar-agent]

but the fact remains that being in the intersection when the light turns red is technically illegal in every state in the nation.

Not in Washington State. We seem to have a sensible legislature & judiciary.

There is nothing in the laws that say the intersection has to be clear on a red light; you just can't enter the intersection on red. In fact, you are obligated to stop in the middle of the intersection to allow legal traffic to pass. It seems perfectly legal to enter the intersection on green or even yellow and finish your left turn on red. And (news to me) we can even make a left turn at a red light from a two-way street onto a one-way street going left; this is explicitly stated.

RCW 46.61.055

(1)(a) Vehicle operators facing a circular green signal ... turning left or right shall stop to allow other vehicles lawfully within the intersection control area to complete their movements.
(2)(a) Vehicle operators facing a steady circular yellow or yellow arrow signal are thereby warned that the related green movement is being terminated or that a red indication will be exhibited immediately thereafter when vehicular traffic shall not enter the intersection.
(3)(a) Vehicle operators facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a clearly marked stop line ... or, if none, then before entering the intersection control area and shall remain standing until an indication to proceed is shown.

Re:if you're in the intersection and it's red

[EvanED]

but the fact remains that being in the intersection when the light turns red is technically illegal in every state in the nation

Nuh uh.

From the Federal Highway Administration, as posted in another comment:

Permissive yellow rule:

• Driver can legally enter intersection during entire yellow interval
• Violation occurs if driver enters intersection after onset of red

Restrictive yellow rule:

• Driver can neither enter nor be in intersection on red
• Violation occurs if driver has not cleared intersection after onset of red

...

The permissive yellow rule is that stated in the MUTCD and Uniform Vehicle Code (UVC). 37 states + DC have laws in substantial conformity with the meaning of the yellow and red indications in the MUTCD and UVC. Another 9 states require motorists to stop on yellow but also drive cautiously through the intersection on the red if too close to stop safely.

Re:if you're in the intersection and it's red

[eric76]

In Texas, if you are in the intersection when the light turns red, then you didn't run a red light. Furthermore, you have the legal right of way to clear the intersection before crossing traffic may enter.

For unprotected left turns, that's why I pull out into the intersection during the green or yellow light and wait for the oncoming to stop before completing my left hand turn.