Slashdot Mirror


Don't Talk To Aliens, Warns Stephen Hawking

Megaport writes "Promoting his new series on the Discovery channel, Stephen Hawking has given an interview to the Times in which 'he has suggested that extraterrestrials are almost certain to exist but that instead of seeking them out, humanity should be doing all that it can to avoid any contact.' He says, 'I imagine they might exist in massive ships, having used up all the resources from their home planet. Such advanced aliens would perhaps become nomads, looking to conquer and colonize whatever planets they can reach. ... If aliens ever visit us, I think the outcome would be much as when Christopher Columbus first landed in America, which didn't turn out very well for the Native Americans.' Personally, I've always thought that the indigenous people of the world really had no chance to avoid contact here on such a small planet, but is hiding under our collective bed an option for humanity in the wider galaxy?"

22 of 1,015 comments (clear)

  1. Security through obscurity? by jolyonr · · Score: 5, Funny

    Hiding will never work :)

    --


    Please read my Canon EOS tech blog at http://www.everyothershot.com
    1. Re:Security through obscurity? by dotancohen · · Score: 5, Funny

      Hiding will never work :)

      But it might buy us the time to develop technology to defend ourselves. Having them nuke us from orbit (it's the only way to be sure) would not be so good for humanity.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    2. Re:Security through obscurity? by Teancum · · Score: 5, Funny

      We can simply pass a United Nations resolution and sign a treaty to keep nukes or for that matter all weapons from space. Doesn't that work? Won't all spacefaring civilizations have such a similar attitude?

    3. Re:Security through obscurity? by pudge · · Score: 5, Insightful

      ALL security is effectively through obscurity. Because it's impossible to prove any security method to be secure, any and all security measures are put in place with the hope that any adversary doesn't know how to defeat those measures.

      Not true. Take the game of chess, for example. Everything in chess is right out in the open. There may be some misdirection involved, but nothing is actually hidden from the adversary. Yet you still have security measures in place.

      You don't put armed guards outside a military outpost in the hope that the enemy won't know HOW to defeat them; you just hope they won't try, because it's too difficult or costly. And if they do try, you will defeat them mostly with brute force, not with anything hidden or secretive.

    4. Re:Security through obscurity? by stonewallred · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We are humans. As RAH said, we are probably the most warlike and violent race that has reached rudimentary intelligence in the universe. If there were other intelligent races, far advance of us, but with our innate bloodthirstiness and violent tendencies, we would dead. Look at the hostility the vast majority of humans have towards each other based on skin color or religion or where they live. Do you actually think humanity as a whole would welcome intelligent beings from another planet, especially if they were as different as us as we are from a fish? Pssh. If you do, you have more faith in humanity than all the religious folks have in their god(s) since the beginning of time.

    5. Re:Security through obscurity? by Kjella · · Score: 5, Funny

      Don't worry, there'll be this man in a blue box calling them up to tell them we're protected under the Shadow Proclamation.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    6. Re:Security through obscurity? by CarpetShark · · Score: 5, Funny

      Hiding will never work :)

      OMG, who said that?

    7. Re:Security through obscurity? by Nadaka · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Interstellar spacecraft are weapons of mass destruction.

      Above a significant fraction of the speed of light, any normal matter has an energy density greater than a nuclear weapon.
      Above a larger fraction of the speed of light, any normal matter has an energy density greater than an anti-matter reaction involving the same rest mass.

    8. Re:Security through obscurity? by Lumpy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why work so hard...

      If they have spaceships, then they can go out to the asteriod belt and hurl an endless supply of ammunition at us that would decimate us and pose no risk at all to the attackers.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    9. Re:Security through obscurity? by digitalgiblet · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If they can get here from other stars I think it's a safe bet they have weapons of MASSIVE destruction. They would have to be far enough more advanced than us that we probably can't even imagine their capabilities (or understand them if we see them). Of course all they really need to do is tug a few astroids along and drop rocks on us, right?

      A more insidious possibility is that they have weapons of mass control. Enslavement or genocide? There is also the "tasty treat" possiblility. Most likely is the "we don't really understand what they are doing" option.

      The only way for them to be even close to our level of technology would be if they travel at speeds we could potentially travel at, right? In other words waaaay below lightspeed (discounting naturally occurring wormholes that happen to be conveniently placed - or the whole "ancients" idea of an earlier higher level civilization that left behind a transit system). In that case they would have ships we could see coming, possibly for years. Either they would have life-spans far, far longer than ours, they would be traveling in generation ships, or even possibly be cyborgs. If we don't see them coming, I'd say we can assume a level of technology we have zero chance of defending against. If we see them coming we might have a fighting chance.

    10. Re:Security through obscurity? by rtb61 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The whole concept is one of paranoia. Considering the age of the galaxy, advanced species could be of immense ages. Any new interstellar aggressor species would find itself confronted by a whole range of progressively more advanced species each in turn more capable of deploying more advanced and often more subtle forms of social stabilisation. The simplest method by which to judge species and what measures may be required to control threats implied by them, is the way in which they interact with less advanced species.

      Much the same way a species upon it's own planet would be judged by the way they interact with each other, with suppositions of racial differences where none exist, of artificial regional divides, specifically demonstrated where a species one region preys upon and exploits the same species in another region, with claims of racial differences to hide, degenerative social diseases, like psychopathy and narcissism.

      So any threatening species would be dealt with, likely well before they became destructive upon an interstellar basis. The greater the gap in advancement the less likely communication will occur, as there will always be more similarly advanced species to fill that interaction and monitoring gap, who in turn would be monitored by next nearest level of advancement.

      Besides planets in reality are pretty crappy resources for any interstellar species, nebula and dust clouds have stupendously huge quantities of material available, sufficient to make thousands even millions of suns, already in affect mined, granulated to a fine powder and just requiring filtering to extract the desired elements.

      Humanity has to be far more concerned with how they interact with each other and how that interaction could be interpreted from an external viewpoint and whether it could be considered as potentially threatening and what actions are required to nip the threat in the bud. Whether it be social modification and, or culling of specific socially destructive elements.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    11. Re:Security through obscurity? by khayman80 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Spending some hundred years taking out all major forms of life and terraforming it to spec hardly seems impossible or unreasonable for an alien race of sufficient technological capability.

      It seems like an alien race with "sufficient technological capability" that evolved on a terrestrial planet would probably prefer to build swarms of O'Neill cylinders rather than nuking and terraforming terrestrial planets. Consider that:

      • Building O'Neill cylinders could provide living space even in star systems without planets in the habitable zone.
      • Materials science appears to allow cylinders several kilometers in diameter to rotate fast enough to impart 1g of "apparent" gravity. Rotational effects are indistinguishable at these large radii, so life inside a cylinder could be made nearly identical to life on the surface of a terrestrial planet.
      • A civilization spread among 10,000 cylinders is more robust than one concentrated onto 1 (or even 10) planets.
      • Planets provide a certain amount of surface area for a given mass. The same mass converted to cylinders would provide much more surface area. Planets are the least efficient way of using matter to provide habitable surface area, by many orders of magnitude.
      • A civilization on the surface of a planet is at the bottom of a gravity well which is expensive and dangerous to traverse. A civilization on a network of cylinders has no such handicap, and can actually use the rotation of the cylinders to facilitate cheap travel.
      • Suppose the cylinders use artificial lighting powered by external solar cells. While less efficient than reflecting sunlight directly into the interior, this approach would allow cylinders to be built around red dwarfs, which don't have the right spectra to support Earth life. Considering the abundance of red dwarfs, this significantly expands the range of potential colony stars.
      • Nuking and terraforming a planet with life destroys invaluable sources of information about evolution and alternative forms of biology.
      • Nuking and terraforming a planet with intelligent life is genocide.
    12. Re:Security through obscurity? by matty619 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm always perplexed when people make this leap that the human species is war-like and surely no other sufficiently developed species could possibly be warlike. We are what we are because of a competitive evolutionary process. Survival of the fittest involves being warlike and fucking aggressive. Why you assume that any other advanced species evolved in any other way is beyond me.

  2. His Master's Voice by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Interesting that I should wake up to find this article when I finished reading Stanislaw Lem's His Master's Voice last night before going to bed. It's one of the earliest books I've read that deals seriously with communications from space. I won't get into the details fo the book but instead pose equally speculative assumptions about advanced life that contradict Hawking (a man much respected in my eyes).

    As humans have "advanced" over the past two thousand years, it is apparent that killing each other is simply not productive. Well, this is apparent to me anyway. And I would argue that although the numbers have probably gone up for homicide on a world wide scale, there is far less nationalistic or religious conflict on the Earth today and the percentages of death related to that have dropped drastically since World War II. Were it not for this movement towards sanity and science, a lot of our technological advances would have been inhibited by 1) the effort it takes to exterminate your neighbor and 2) being killed by your neighbor. While military research brings advancements in other fields, the primary goal is stopping the enemy. Had scientists that invented napalm at Dow Chemical been given the same amount of resources to invent more efficient fuels and engines, I've no doubt they could have.

    Simply put: why is it that we assume an "advanced" civilization means that it is militarily advanced and not ethically advanced? Those two categories are not mutually exclusive and I would argue that any alien race not ethically advanced before becoming militarily advanced will simply continue to focus on killing each other. I will also posit that intergalactic travel is near impossible without the ability to understand anthropology. Using this logic, I would wager that the nomadic roving death squads are no more likely than the aliens in Asimov's Childhood's End that show up and help us technologically as well as ethically (we've still got quite a ways to go in some areas more than others).

    It's hard to agree with Hawking's assumption of aliens as it's more apparent they would simply die out from lack of resources before ever finding their first victims. I suppose all I have to offer is science fiction references since that's all that's being discussed here.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:His Master's Voice by gaspyy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not necessarily.

      Aliens could have a hive-like society, similar to ants or bees, where the individual is nothing. Surely you remember Ender's Game and its idea that the conflict was ultimately caused by the difference in society - the aliens could not comprehend an advanced society made of individuals alone. A hive-based society may discard empathy as inefficient. As a side-note, I think this is the direction of the reimagined "V" series - I think the aliens are "bug-like" rather that "lizard-like".

    2. Re:His Master's Voice by Teancum · · Score: 5, Insightful

      While I'm not necessarily disputing the argument here, I would like to know what possible resource we might have on the Earth that can't be found much, much more abundantly and in a form much easier to obtain elsewhere that can only be found on the Earth? Here are some common favorites in science fiction stories:

      • Water - Only the most abundant chemical compound in the universe, made up of two of the most common elements in the universe. Even in our own solar system, there are whole worlds made up of mostly water ice and major bodies, like comets, that literally announce their existence with a massive display of water. There may be "local" shortages of water (however you may define it), but it is incredibly common and easy to find this stuff. You certainly wouldn't need to engage in an interstellar or better an intergalactic journey just to get some extra water from little ol' Earth. There is enough water ice in the solar system (in chunks movable with human technology) to completely submerge the surface of Mars with a massive ocean, including Olympus Mons and not even touch the oceans of the Earth. Studies of other stellar planetary systems seem very likely to have the same quantity of free ice and perhaps even more than our relatively older solar system.
      • Meat - This is an argument that simply defies logic.... that somehow the aliens are going to "eat" us. Particularly given that we live in an industrial society, modern humans is one of the worst possible sources of protein that you can come from. We are top predators with a lifetime of accumulated chemicals, heavy metals, and parasites that would be and are lethal to anybody eating that kind of flesh. If an aliens society simply needed the protein for survival, I'm sure there are several rather large food processing corporations that would gladly provide domestic livestock in sufficient quantities to more than satisfy their needs anyway. How many McDonald's Hamburgers do these aliens really want and why is that not sufficient to be sold by.... McDonald's?
      • Unobtainium - More to the point, some sort of rare convergence of ultra rare elements that somehow made the formation of the Solar System unique, and some super-heavy element that also happens to be radioactively stable is found in our Solar System in quantities sufficient to send a massive mining party out to wipe out a species to get that mineral. Again, what possible mineral might this be? I admit that detailed geologic surveys of the whole solar system have yet to be done in significant quantity, but I think we got a pretty good idea of what elements are "out there" and based on stellar spectra we are quite confident that those same elements... at least to Uranium... are in fairly significant quantities.
      • Labor - Sort of back to the meat argument, but this time the aliens are needing "thinking" meat to get everything accomplished. Presuming that these aliens got into space starting from a planet somewhat like the Earth (why else are they coming here?) implies a certain minimum industrial base. More to the point, slavery generally has not been economical and there are usually significant alternatives to slavery even in those human civilizations where it was tried... where ultimately automated machines in some fashion ended up improving the productivity far better than what a slave could produce. When a horse can plow a field for less grain than you can feed a team of people to till and cultivate the same acreage, you use a horse. Again... these aliens are traveling incredible distances... for this?
      • The Earth itself - I'll admit that a planetary body with a liquid water ocean and sufficient atmosphere for prolonged habitation is a rather rare thing, so there may be some desire to seek for habitable planets. Still, for a civilization to send not just a single explorer or representative, but to send a massive invading army, are planets like the Earth really all that r
  3. I've been saying this all along....! by flajann · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I've been saying what Hawking is saying all along. It is sheer folly to think that an advance race went through all the trouble to cross many, many light-years of intergalactic space just to say "Hi".

    The enormity of the effort they would have to mount given the physics of space travel would be rather significant, and at great cost to themselves. The time it would take would depend on how close to the speed of light they can reach. And the physics of THAT means they would have to have the technology to convert matter into energy somehow. Or, it would take them many thousands of years to get here. Either way, it's NOT going to be a friendly housecall, no matter how you shake it.

    The public has in its collective imagination all these SF stories that assumes some way has been found to avert the realities of the physics that we now understand. But I am not confident at all that a way can be found to make interstellar space travel "cheap and affordable", per se. Wormholes, if they even exist, require energies way beyond our imagination, way beyond any civilization would be able to harness, energies at galactic scales or worse, and even at that there is no clear understanding if they would actually be useful for travel.

    We indeed understand a lot today about physics and cosmology, and nothing I've seen to this time would even hint at the merest possibility of anything that could possibly make interstellar travel "cheap and affordable" my mere civilizations throughout the cosmos

    So, I deem it extremely unlikely that Humanity's fantasies about space travel will ever likely be true.

    And thus, on that basis, I would firmly agree with Hawking.

  4. No point in raiding Earth by gatkinso · · Score: 5, Informative

    There are pleanty of other resources out there, why come all they way here to get them?

    It would be like filling your car full of fuel, driving to the airport (past several orchards, forests, landfills, and supermarkets), filling up a 767, flying to Tahiti in it, then raiding a village for its produce.

    It just wouldn't be worth it. Not saying they wouldn't be interested, just that the expense and effort to take our stuff would not even be close to break even.

    The only reason I could see for them to actually come here are for biologicals. Perhaps petroleum which is also biological actually. Basically us, the plants, all of the bugs, the germs. And that is only useful to them if the biomass is is similar and compatible to theirs.

    Quite frankly they could probably produce their own Earth sized biomass with less energy than it would take for them to to transport such infrastructure here.

    --
    I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
  5. Self-unawareness by dr.g · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Our species, up to and including our most advanced thinkers*, is too wedded to unexamined assumptions and too fond of creating self-referential aphorisms and/or ironic maxims to realistically model first contact with non-human species.

    *-apparently.

    --
    "To be fair, I was left completely unsupervised." ~Anon
  6. What...the...fuck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Everyone now wishes that somebody killed Hitler when he was a baby.

    No, they really don't. The common question which you've heard, "if you could go back in time and kill Hitler as a baby, would you?" is meant to generate ethical debate, and the answer is not meant to be obvious. In fact, with the same fervor that you would use in answering "yes" to that question, I would answer "no." Killing someone for crimes they have not yet committed is simply unacceptable in my world view, and life itself isn't as important to me as holding to such moral guidelines.

    In other words, I'd more than willing to accept the extinction of the human race over condoning the brutal "sterilization" of other sentient species. A species such as the one you describe isn't worth protecting.

  7. Re:Greg Bear called by listentoreason · · Score: 5, Informative

    Reference to The Forge of God, for those unfamiliar with it. Postulates a universe with three types of civilizations; Sterilizers, in the phraseology used above, naive civilizations that reveal themselves to the sterilizers and are annihilated, and then a very loose consortium of non-Sterilizers who band together for mutual defense. This third category hides from its own members, effectively using anonymous communication to coordinate defense and response to the sterilizers. The later group is actually revealed in his follow-on novel, Anvil of Stars.

  8. Re:Maybe they're scared of us too? by kinabrew · · Score: 5, Insightful

    But seriously, if there are alien life forms, we don't even know that we'd be on the same scales as them.

    They could be a hundred meters tall or they could be microscopic. And they could perceive time in an extremely delayed manner(with our seconds feeling like hours to them) or an extremely accelerated manner(with our hours feeling like seconds to them).

    We don't know that the things on our earth that we consider natural resources are the same things that an alien civilization would consider natural resources. Humanity's waste products might be the things the aliens most precious needs, or their waste products might be things we could eat as food. Maybe they could eat dirt.

    I think that hiding makes sense until we have the capability for travel between solar systems, specifically because there is a possibility that aliens encountered would pose a danger to us, but to naturally assume that whichever ones we encountered would want to do things that would harm us seems a little too paranoid.

    Any group that is capable of such travel is likely to get their energy from somewhere, but even in our own solar system, is earth the biggest source of energy? Jupiter alone would likely provide millions of times the amount of power that could be obtained from Earth, and wouldn't have the danger of infection from Earth's bacteria and viruses. And the sun provides unmeasurable amounts of power compared to Earth. And even the sun isn't a large star.

    Compared to many others, our solar system would be like a crumb to any civilization searching for resources.

    And one last thing I wonder about: Is humanity's fear of extraterrestrial intelligence based on humanity's own instinct of survival of the fittest? And if so, is it reasonable to guess that other forms of intelligence would have such instinct? And would they even perceive us as competition? Or would they have out-evolved that need?

    It makes sense to be cautious and to attempt to not be found, but it's also good to have some perspective. We have no idea about the motivations of any intelligence that would contact us or come here.