Slashdot Mirror


Rich Pretexter, Poor Pretexter

theodp writes "David Kernell used pretexting to gain access to Sarah Palin's e-mail. And now Kernell faces the possibility of a 20-year prison sentence. HP used pretexting to gain access to its Board's phone records. And now HP faces the possibility of supplying phones to the very companies that were victimized in the HP pretexting scandal. So perhaps Kernell should try coughing up $14.5 million to see if that'll make his pretexting problems disappear. Seems to have worked for HP!"

18 of 121 comments (clear)

  1. Some Differences in These Cases by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In the HP case, I don't think they publicized or gave away that information to potentially harmful persons. Palin could legitimately fear identity theft while the HP case that was more invasive seemed to have a very small group of people accessing the private information. Basically, was there potential identity theft in either case? Kernell's jury was hung on that, if I remember. The other thing is that the HP employees didn't seem to want to press charges (aside from one, if I recall correctly). So the pretexting victims need to step up and remember, the telephone companies weren't the biggest victims, it was the actual phone account holders that had their records accessed via pretexting. I'm no legal expert on the issue but I think if the people whose records had been accessed stepped up to sue then the result would have been different. I imagine Palin will exercise all options in prosecuting Kernell and since she's not in anyway trying to salvage a relationship with Kernell he'll get the book thrown at him whether he's sorry or not.

    Also, I read about this in ValleyWag and didn't see it linked to in the summary. Not sure if theodp works there or if it was just coincidence but if this comparison was gleaned from there, some small credit should be given.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Some Differences in These Cases by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ok, but in the Palin case, the former governor was using this email address to skirt public disclosure requirements. Palin is trying to play the victim here. She is the worst type of politician, and if our system was fair (which is impossible due to people like Palin), then she would be prosecuted as well.

      As far as I'm concerned, Kernell did the public a service in helping to expose a corrupt politician.

  2. ...f by hannson · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What I find most interesting about this case is that the initial sentence is up to 1 year for the unauthorized access itself and 20 years for the "obstruction of justice". I just can't see how that punishment fits the crime.

  3. Ahhh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Kernell panic!

  4. Ob by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Funny

    I know about other people's email. I can read it from my house!

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  5. No surprise really by dkleinsc · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Under American law, corporations have almost all privileges of citizenship without most of the responsibilities of citizenship. And people acting on behalf of a corporation have lots of legal protections that us regular schlemiels lack. They benefit extensively from the protection of the US military (both in and outside of US territory), and of course have ready access to all the more local services such as police, the fire department, municipal water supply, and so on. Thanks to the current Supreme Court, they also have full rights of political speech.

    However, about the only responsibility of citizenship that they have to any degree whatsoever is that they are required to pay taxes, and many of them manage to dodge even doing that. Interestingly, if the interests of their shareholders conflict with the interests of the US, they are legally supposed to go with the shareholder's interest. So, for instance, if it is profitable to find a legal loophole that allows some subsidiary to sell uranium to Iran, a corporation capable of doing so is generally obligated to do just that.

    The craziness of this: if Carly Fiorina pretexts to find out whether her husband is cheating on her, she's likely to be in a similar boat to David Kernell. If she pretexts to find out whether there's a leak on her board, she's now acting as a corporate officer, and thus the company is liable, not Carly, unless the prosecutor or plaintiff can convince a judge to pierce the corporate veil. Same person, same act, but in the second version there's an extra layer of legal protection.

    --
    I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    1. Re:No surprise really by sed+quid+in+infernos · · Score: 4, Informative

      If she pretexts to find out whether there's a leak on her board, she's now acting as a corporate officer, and thus the company is liable, not Carly, unless the prosecutor or plaintiff can convince a judge to pierce the corporate veil.

      This is just flat out wrong. There is no concept of "piercing the corporate" veil with respect to criminal prosecution. Veil-piercing is a product of civil law. Moreover, it is very common for corporate officers to face criminal prosecution for acts committed to further the corporate interest.

      To convict a person of a crime, one must generally prove an illegal act committed with the proper state of mind (called mens rea, and in financial crimes this generally means intent to commit the ac). In many corporate scenarios, the mental state does not exist in a single person - it is spread out across many people - and is therefore very hard to prove. In some cases, this spreading out of responsibility is such that no single person ever had the necessary mental state necessary to support a conviction. Corporate prosecution is a way to punish such acts without abrogating our general principle that we don't punish people who didn't commit a crime. It is in addition to prosecution of persons, not instead of, and thus means that more crimes can be punished under our corporate laws than could be if those laws did not exist.

      In sum, if a person commits a crime, the legal requirements for prosecution are the same whether committed to further a private or corporate interest.

      As a side matter, Fiorina was not at HP when the investigation happened. Link. More importantly, there was little or no evidence that the chair at the time new about the pretexting before it took place. They hired a private investigator who engaged in pretexting. Although this is legally enough to warrant civil liability, it is not sufficient to support criminal liability.

  6. Can we please go back to calling it "LYING"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Pretexting is just a made up word to make it look like they did something clever.

    1. Re:Can we please go back to calling it "LYING"? by iPhr0stByt3 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      We could also remove words such as running, sneaking, walking, jogging and sprinting and just say "going".
      Pretexting is a specific type of lie that means setting up the false pretext to be someone else - typically by using valid and/or confidential information about that person or by using the pretext over a prolonged period of time to make the ruse seem more convincing.

      I appreciate having this extra bit of information instead of just saying "he lied".

  7. Corporatocracy by michaelmalak · · Score: 4, Informative
    The word you're looking for is Corporatocracy.

    One important component you left out: the greater ability of corporations to influence government -- Disney, Halliburton, GlaxoSmithKline, etc. Other, more "polite", keywords to Google: rent seeking and Public Choice Theory.

    1. Re:Corporatocracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      The word you're looking for is Corporatocracy

      Protip: If you are going to link Wikipedia to bolster a point, choose an article where virtually every sentence doesn't end with "citation needed".

    2. Re:Corporatocracy by jeffasselin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I prefer the term "corporate oligarchy". Means mostly the same thing, but those words actually exist.

      --
      If he explores all forms and substances Straight homeward to their symbol-essences; He shall not die.
  8. Re:HP didn't break the law, the PI's did by Hyppy · · Score: 4, Informative

    Google the legal doctrine of "respondeat superior". It will be enlightening.

  9. Pretexting is such a pretty euphemism by elrous0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We used to call these "criminal impostors" back in the day. If a thief, masquerading to be a cop, pulled you over and then stole your wallet, would you call it "pretexting"?

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  10. A big Slashdot-y example of this from my life by br00tus · · Score: 5, Interesting
    On November 2, 1988, Robert Tappan Morris Junior released his worm, on an Internet that at that time had very little security. It took down a significant chunk of the net, crashing thousands of machines. Morris's father was a bigwig in the national security establishment, Morris was an upper middle class WASP who went to Harvard. Despite all this damage, he did no jail time.

    On January 24, 1990, in New York City, three MoD hackers were arrested. I had met all three before they were arrested. In terms of damage, only one machine they had ever been on had crashed, and all three denied crashing that one machine. There was no proof they had crashed it, and dozens of hackers had been on that Learning Link machine. Even if one had crashed it, which I don't believe, how can you accuse three people of the same crime? All three lived in poor or working class neighborhoods in New York, went to public schools etc. The judge said he would make an example of them and sent all three to jail.

    I was 16 years old when they were arrested, and this was my first real experience seeing the "justice system" - an upper middle class WASP whose father was high in the military establishment admits he crashed thousands of machines and is called a misunderstood genius who made a mistake, and walks on charges. A year later three guys younger than him are arrested for crashing a computer which they all plausibly deny crashing (and how does it take three people to crash one computer anyhow), a computer which had dozens of other hackers on it. They come from working class neighborhoods in Queens, with modems connected to Commodore 64's, not Unix workstations at Ivy League schools like Cornell. They go to jail, Morris walks. An early lesson for me on how America really works.

  11. Um... no. by jwietelmann · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You might be able to make the civil disobedience argument if he had, say, broken into the email account, downloaded everything, and sent it to a site like Wikileaks. Instead, he put the password on 4chan, and in the process he didn't really expose anything and delegitimized anything that might have been found.

    Painting this kid as some sort of noble hacker/whistleblower is pure fantasy.

    (At the same time, I do feel empathy for him, as we all know what law enforcement would do if someone broke into one of our personal webmail accounts: Absolutely nothing.)

    1. Re:Um... no. by mea37 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm not saying you are or aren't in the group I'm about to argue with, because it's a bit unclear from your comment; but...

      I've noticed that a lot of people throw around the "civil disobedience argument" as though they think it should be a legal defense. It isn't. It was never intended to be. The very concept of civil disobedience is that you accept the consequences of your actions, even if they be unfair consequences imposed by a corrupt regime. That's the nature of the play. If you don't like that part of it, then civil disobedience may not be for you.

      So, yeah... he might have gotten a more sympathetic judge and/or jury if he'd done as you suggest, but he still would've gotten a criminal record and some sort of sentence out of the deal. Bottom line is having the best of intentions still doesn't make it ok to go outside the system. What crimes Palin did or didn't commit would be a separate matter, but don't expect evidence revealed in this manner to be what brings her down.

  12. The Major Difference in This Case by MarbleMunkey · · Score: 4, Informative

    You managed to avoid the truly major difference in this case; The 20 year sentence is for felony obstruction of justice. The actual hacking of the e-mail account was only filed as a misdemeanor, and has a maximum sentence of 1 year.