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Flash Is Not a Right

medcalf notes that game designer Ian Bogost enters the debate about Flash by saying "[A] large number of developers seem to think that they have the right to make software for the iPhone (or for anything else) in Flash, or in another high-level environment of their choosing. Literally, the right, not just the convenience or the opportunity. And many of them are quite churlish about the matter. This strikes me as a very strange sort of attitude to adopt. There's no question that Flash is useful and popular, and it has a large and committed user base. There's also no question that it's often convenient to be able to program for different platforms using environments one already knows. And likewise, there's a long history of creating OS stubs or wrappers or other sorts of gizmos to make it possible to run code 'alien' to a platform in a fashion that makes it feel more native. But what does it say about the state of programming practice writ large when so many developers believe that their 'rights' are trampled because they cannot write programs for a particular device in a particular language? Or that their 'freedom' as creators is squelched for the same reason?"

29 of 850 comments (clear)

  1. You signed away this "right" by picking Apple. by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's what happens when you choose a closed platform.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    1. Re:You signed away this "right" by picking Apple. by EvilNTUser · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's what happens when you choose a closed platform.

      Exactly, but TFA is one big strawman. The argument is that closed platforms are bad, not that open platforms are a right. We can call Apple assholes without trying to revoke their business license.

      Hell, I hate Flash too. But there's a huge difference between not actively supporting a technology and doing your best to ensure people can't use it even when they want to.

      --
      My Sig: SEGV
    2. Re:You signed away this "right" by picking Apple. by sbeckstead · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't really think you guys know what you mean by a "Closed Platform". Flash is just as closed as anything Apple or Microsoft puts out there. The development tools cost more and the capabilities are stifled in comparison to native tools on any system that Flash runs on.

    3. Re:You signed away this "right" by picking Apple. by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      My take on the whole thing is "WAH" if you dont like it then dont code for the closed platform. There is a huge Android platform that would really like some more great apps to compete with apple's head start.

      Plus android based tablets are actually already here (I have had an android based tablet for a year now. I installed Android X86 on a older tablet PC. works great.

      I agree, you dont like it, then dont code for it.

      but I dont see anyone writing Symbian apps with Flash. And symbian phone sales outnumber the iPhones and all android phones put together.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    4. Re:You signed away this "right" by picking Apple. by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's what happens when you don't know how to program! You choose one language one platform over all others.

      Why is it that everyone assumes I am pro-Flash, simply because I dislike Apple's stand on this matter?

      I'm glad Flash is slowly dying. I just don't like the way Apple's chosen to kill it.

      As for forcing people to learn multiple languages and multiple platforms, that's a very good thing, but having to completely rewrite an app from the ground up for multiple platforms is a bad thing.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    5. Re:You signed away this "right" by picking Apple. by Dahamma · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly, but TFA is one big strawman.

      That's exactly how I was going to describe it. I am solidly in the camp that thinks Apple's business practices around this whole debate have been deplorable, but I haven't seen anyone claiming they had any inherent RIGHTS one way or the other in the matter.

      Not any serious developers, at least. I'm sure there are plenty of Internet trolls saying things like that, but if he's arguing against trolls he lost before he started.

    6. Re:You signed away this "right" by picking Apple. by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you don't like it, don't buy it, don't develop for it. Simple.

      I haven't bought it (and never will), and don't develop for it (and never will). However, that doesn't mean I shouldn't also express feedback as to why I didn't/don't do those things. You believe in a false dichotomy.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    7. Re:You signed away this "right" by picking Apple. by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I really wish everyone would quit whining

      If you don't like it, don't listen.

      If you don't like it, don't buy it, don't develop for it.

      Check. Now what?

      Watch the rest of my profession, and a large chunk of the general public, be pulled into this trap? Or speak out against it?

      I want what the iPhone should have been, and what Android still has a chance of becoming. That is not going to happen if all of us just sit down, shut up, and let Apple take all the marketshare. There absolutely is a PR battle to be fought over this, and I am going to continue to warn people away from walled gardens as long as they will listen, until the only people left in those gardens are their creators.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    8. Re:You signed away this "right" by picking Apple. by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Flash is just as closed as anything Apple or Microsoft puts out there.

      Nope. Flash is closed-source. Apple is both closed-source and closed-access, which is a very different thing.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  2. It's called "PERSONAL PROPERTY," Apple! by mrchaotica · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Using your own device in whatever manner you wish is your right!

    --

    "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    1. Re:It's called "PERSONAL PROPERTY," Apple! by LWATCDR · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yea and you can write the program and use it on the iPhone with any tool you want.
      You just can not sell it in their store.
      But you can use it on your phone all you want.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    2. Re:It's called "PERSONAL PROPERTY," Apple! by jcheezem · · Score: 4, Insightful

      True - but look at the end user agreement for the software.

      You don't own it.

    3. Re:It's called "PERSONAL PROPERTY," Apple! by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Either way, you know what you're getting when you buy it."

      At what point did Apple come out and say, "We do not allow cartoons that mock politicians on the iPhone/iPad?" Oh, that's right, they leave out the details about their restrictions when you ask about these devices.

      Some people do not know what they are getting when they buy it.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
  3. Two senses of "closed." by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Flash may be proprietary itself, but there's a large extent to which it doesn't dictate what you can do with it.

    Apple dictates what software you can develop for their mobile products to an absurd level -- everything from what tools you may use to what kind of morality is appropriate (no porn for you).

    I don't like either of them, and I am glad to see Apple kill Flash, but I despise the way they're doing it.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    1. Re:Two senses of "closed." by nine-times · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just keep this in mind: Apple used Fairplay DRM to kill the use of WMA and DRM in the music industry. Apple's insanity isn't all bad.

    2. Re:Two senses of "closed." by i_ate_god · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Oh, so there's a real Apple somewhere which lets me actually own my own hardware? Or a real Facebook which lets me own my own data?

      Yes, it's called Nokia.

      --
      I'm god, but it's a bit of a drag really...
    3. Re:Two senses of "closed." by Lundse · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You may not like it but the fact is no one cares.

      Which is why we are arguing against Apple's platform - if noone cares, everyone is worse off. So you can call us whatever you want, I for one will still argue that Apple's methods is hurting developers, and in the end consumers. If you believe I am wrong, or wrong that this matters, tell me why and we can discus it.
      Yelling "noone cares" is just silly...

      --
      IAIFARSIJDPOOTV - I Am In Fact A Reality Star; I Just Don't Play One On TV
    4. Re:Two senses of "closed." by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nope. The fact that something is legal does not make it right. Apple absolutely has the right to dictate what does and does not go on on their platform (as much as I dislike it). Their right ends at the device, however. When they dictate what goes on on my machines, they are very far out of line. The fact that developers agree to this has nothing to do with whether it is right or wrong.

      Furthermore, I don't own an iPhone (and never will), and I don't develop for the iPhone (and never will), precisely because of the unreasonable restrictions Apple puts upon this platform. Not only do you have a poor grasp upon what Apple's rights are, your argument amounts to making false assumptions about what I own, and drawing conclusions about my character based on those false assumptions. Hardly a strong position you have, there.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    5. Re:Two senses of "closed." by liquiddark · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, I think I'll continue to blame Apple. Modern tools like Flash have increased the quality and ease of software development because they provide common functionality support at a very high level. While there are a few holes in the Flash provider itself, those are not comparable to the damage done by developers who have to reinvent the wheel every time. Consumers don't give a damn what something was written in, and Flash has been one of those technologies consumers have glommed onto en masse. Apple shutting down Flash and comparable frameworks is Apple's fault and nobody else's, and it's bad for everyone.

    6. Re:Two senses of "closed." by TheGreek · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As an independent developer I have to spend more money to develop for the iphone since I must use a Mac and I must use Snow Leopard. Adobe allowed me to skirt this requirement by using Flash, which has a significantly lower starting cost. Lower starting cost = entry to market = lower out of pocket funding for iphone development.

      Flash CS5 is the only product that comes with the Flash-to-.ipa converter. It retails for $700. The Mac Mini starts at $600. Last I checked, $600 was less than $700.

      They don't have the funds to start a legal fight, nor could they survive apple's change in terms of services. That, sir, is a monopoly. Apple has a monopoly on the market.

      Let's get a couple of things straightened out:

      1) Changing your terms of service does not give you a monopoly in your market.
      2) Apple's US smartphone marketshare is 25%--18% less than RIM. How can you have a monopoly in your market if you're not even the largest player?

      I'd ask for a refund on whatever it was you spent on your "education."

    7. Re:Two senses of "closed." by jedidiah · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > Actually, yes, you were. WMA DRM locked you into using Windows. So one could argue it was just as bad.

      Except Windows represents a multi-vendor platform just like Flash does.

      The key difference between Microsoft and Apple is that Microsoft wants their stuff used far and wide and don't want to p*ss off the developers.

      At the end of the day, there is some value to platforms that started out by catering to developers.

      The rube-on-the-street might not think it's obvious, but he benefits from the efforts of those that do.

      All technological liberty boils down to this.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  4. Confusion Over Source of Ire by eldavojohn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Flash Is Not a Right

    There seems to be some confusion here. I don't recall the argument being that developers thought it was a right, the argument was that it is a tool that is useful and can probably run with little effort on Apple's mobile devices. So it was perceived that Apple was deliberately stunting some developers. Now, I think Java's been outlawed as well so you should be just as upset about that. Now, as a consumer, the iPad is right out of the question as here we have two empowering functionalities disabled for no apparent reason on my device. And it looks like they're going to do everything they can to stop Java and Flash from ever running on iPads.

    The outcry is not that Apple is revoking a right but simply that they are deliberately crippling a product ... and for what reason? Well, Jobs gives a few reasons but a lot of people assume it's marketshare and money. I happen to side with the latter group and find that despicable under the assumption that it would not take much to get Java or Flash running on an iPad.

    Couple the above with the fact that there are a lot of social games out there and lightweight games running Flash already that might have hoped the iPad would just automagically support their game and I think you understand why there's so much backlash for lack of Flash. It's not a right but it lack of Flash on the iPad is a wet blanket to many.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Confusion Over Source of Ire by jjoelc · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Couple the above with the fact that there are a lot of social games out there and lightweight games running Flash already that might have hoped the iPad would just automagically support their game

      You just inadvertently stated exactly what I have been thinking all along... There are a lot of people who have a lot of existing apps written in flash. There is a lot of money floating around the iPhone/iPad app store right now, so that is where they want to be. What they don't seem to want to do is put any more work into all of these existing apps to optimize them in any way shape or form for the platform. They want to just press a button that says "compile for iPhone/iPad" and start rolling in the money...

      It doesn't work that way. Odds are that you chose to program in flash because it was the hot field. There was a lot of work and money and opportunity in that area, so that is where you went. Now the money and opportunity are somewhere else, and you are complaining that you have to learn something new or do something different to get access to it? Sorry charlie...

      If you are looking to follow the fads, expect to change brand names regularly. How many of you are still wearing your parachute pants?

    2. Re:Confusion Over Source of Ire by nine-times · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The outcry is not that Apple is revoking a right but simply that they are deliberately crippling a product ... and for what reason?

      There are apparently a number of reasons and Jobs gave them. You may not like those reasons, and you may think those reasons are stupid, but I don't really see a lot in the way of grounds to disbelieve that those are the main reasons. To boil it down to what's probably the biggest reason: Apple *wants* developers to develop apps specifically for the iPhone/iPad because they believe they'll get better apps that way. They don't particularly want cross platform apps that have been ported over, because Apple's belief is that they'll get flooded with tons and tons of crappy applications that don't work well and don't take good advantage of their devices' capabilities.

      Personally, I think a lot of this anger against Apple for refusing to allow Flash comes from two factors: latent anti-Apple sentiments and successful astroturfing by Adobe. You have tons and tons of people who, a few monts or a year ago, would be complaining loudly about how Flash is a horrible blight on the free Internet, and instead today they're complaining about Apple's evil plot to damage the beautiful and perfect Flash platform by forcing people to use the terrible proprietary H264 format. It's kind of dumb.

      If you want to complain about Apple's lock-down, I say go ahead, but pick some better examples. Let's talk about the fact that they're still using DRM on their video purchases. Let's talk about how they rejected the Google Voice app. Let's talk about how you can't put the iPhone or iPad into "disk mode" and copy your files on and off. Those are all instances where Apple is actually restricting functionality. But Flash? Apple's doing us a favor. They're not saying, "You can't build an application that does [such and such]." They're saying you can't build an application using a crappy tool that crashes constantly and causes everyone various problems.

  5. Sounds like a Case of the Spostas by tarsi210 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why does this strike me that this is more about a bunch of so-called, "developers," who are getting all huffy about not being able to easily whack out Whack-A-Mole and Fart apps for the i(Pad|Touch|Phone), than about a true fight for a "right" to develop as you please? So develop stuff in Flash -- you just won't be able to publish it via these devices. Why is this a big surprise? It's not as if Apple's hidden the fact that Flash isn't supported. It's not like you USED to be able to use it and now you can't -- they've been VERY open about their dick-waving with Adobe.

    Hey -- I want it to have Flash, too. I'd like to have a Ferrari, but it's just not in the cards, ya know?

    A million baby entrepreneurs thought that the iPad would SURELY have to allow the use of Flash and they were already counting the stacks of bills in their minds garnered from the various apps they were going to whack out in a hurry using Flash; now that dream has been shattered and they're getting all surly about it. Wah.

  6. It's part of monopoly/anti-trust laws by GameMaster · · Score: 4, Insightful

    First off, IANAL but, In the US, we have anti-trust laws designed to stop companies from doing this kind of stuff. The don't, necessarily, require the company to have X% market-share before some of the laws apply. Has Apple crossed the line here? I don't know, I guess we'll find out when the recently announced legal issues resolve themselves. The point is that there are laws that limit how much a company can control what you do with a product you've purchase from them even when it comes to your future use of that product with their services. A prime example is in the automotive industry. Car makers aren't allowed to just void your warranty for not using "Ford" brand gasoline; "Ford" brand tires; "Ford" brand spark plugs; etc. They don't get to void the warranty just because you installed an after-market tail pipe or radio. From my perspective, I can see them having the right to refuse to host a Flash plug-in on the iTunes store (though, Microsoft's recent issues in the EU with providing a list of alternative browsers might suggest possible issues for Apple in the EU) but the thing I see as most contentious would be their refusal to allow anyone to install software onto the device that isn't provided through iTunes and their, active, banning of users that jailbreak their device. This is the behavior that I can see the US government/courts coming down hard on.

    --

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  7. High Level Languages by zentec · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't consider it a misunderstanding over their "right", but a complete lack of understanding of the platform for which they want to develop. There's a lost art of having to program devices with limited memory and energy budgets. Thanks to the desktop, the solution wasn't to code more efficiently and have the developer bear the pain, it was just far easier to push it to the user in the form of more memory and faster processors. And yes, more energy.

    This can't be done on tiny devices, and the write-once run everywhere mantra comes at a hefty expense. I also agree with Jobs' point that high level abstractions and languages *do* reduce the application down to the lowest common denominator.

    At some point, Adobe and their peers will want to start putting their libraries inside the iPhone OS. We've all seen how intrusive and bloated Adobe Reader has become, that's just the kind of behavior I hope to avoid on my phone. Sure, Flash would be nice, but am I willing to get it at the cost of allowing Adobe to modify files in the OS? The alternative is that these Flash applications carry the necessary libraries with them and these simply Flash games are now pushing tens of megabytes in girth.

    Furthermore, where does it end? They permit Flash, then Java and hey what about .NET /CLR for applications? How about Visual Basic on the iPhone? Wait, that we've left out the Fortran programmers so we need to support them as well.

    Here's an idea. Instead of being a "Flash Developer", how about you just be a developer and understand that a language is a tool and like all tools, there's a right one for the job. Tiny device programming is a different art form, one of where less really is more and it isn't necessarily an easy world in which to work.

    Sorry to be a buzz kill.

  8. Re:What a stupid question by medcalf · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Maybe I'm just misunderstanding your point, but a "right" is not a "well-established social norm". A right is a thing you can do that compels no one else to do anything, nor prevents them from exercising their own rights of the same kind. Your right to use your property any way you like doesn't prevent me from doing the same with my property. In other words, a right is something for which you cannot justly be punished. It is one of the four controls of societal interaction, along with a privilege (which you are granted immunity from punishment for, even if it creates an obligation on someone else or in some way infringes another's rights), a duty (which you can be justly punished for not doing) and a prohibition (which you may not do without facing at least the risk of punishment).

    --
    -- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
  9. Re:I have a dream by kherr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That one day, little iPhones, and little Android phones, may one day access the same content.

    That was, essentially, Steve Jobs argument in his letter slamming Flash. His view is that the Web should be based on standards.

    The truth is Flash is not a standard, it's a convention. A huge amount of Web content may be in Flash, but it's a closed system. Only one company, Adobe, decides how it works. Ten years ago you could say the same thing about RealPlayer. Shouldn't the iPhone support Real video? What about ActiveX?

    The iPhone platform is closed, sure. But it's not delivering content to others, it happens to include a way to access web content. If it does a poor job of that the market will reject it, but the only ones who seem up in arms are Flash developers who are mad about their favorite tools not working on some shiny, popular platform.