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Apple vs. Nokia vs. Google vs. HTC

Lanxon writes "Wired has published a lengthy investigation into the litigation underway among some of the world's biggest cell phone manufacturers, and what it means for the industry of patent lawsuits and patent squatting. 'According to a 2009 report by PricewaterhouseCoopers, from 1995 to 2008 non-practising entities [patent trolls] have been awarded damages that are, on average, more than double those for practising entities. Consider Research In Motion's 2006 payout of over $612 million to Virginia-based patent-holding company NTP, to avoid its BlackBerry network being shut down in the US. As part of the settlement, NTP granted RIM a licence to use its patented technology; it has subsequently filed lawsuits against AT&T, Sprint Nextel, T-Mobile, and Verizon.'"

28 of 159 comments (clear)

  1. Patent trolling should be outlawed by kaptink · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Patent trolling/squatting should be outlawed internationally.

    --
    Those who can, do. Those who cannot, sue.
    1. Re:Patent trolling should be outlawed by Interoperable · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It seems to me that a requirement for maintaining a valid patent should be that you must be producing something that uses it or actively developing something that uses it. It's a simple notion, in following with the principles of patents, that would neatly eliminate patent trolling and patenting just to block competitors. It would likely lighten the work load of the patent office as well, since broad patents for that purpose would be useless. I'm a strong supporter of patents and intellectual property but I think that there needs to be a clear path from initial innovation to a specific product or set of products in order for a patent to be considered enforceable.

      --
      So if this is the future...where's my jet pack?
    2. Re:Patent trolling should be outlawed by lorenlal · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm 100% with you. Of course, I'm wondering what the standard for demonstrating active development would be? Also, who would be checking to see that they're actually doing something with it?

      Clearly, we couldn't take the company's word for it. If they did decide to waste money by pretending to do development, it would at least introduce some risk to the trolling company in terms of cost. Also, faking records would be quite interesting to the SEC.

      If we can answer these questions, we could finally stop bitching about patent trolls and try to do something about it... Like getting in the ear of our lawmakers, and trying to get them to realize how bad this is for the economy. The finishing move would be: Bad economy -> The more likely you'll not see the other side of the next election.

    3. Re:Patent trolling should be outlawed by rpresser · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's insane. That would remove all protection from the traditional lone inventor who comes up with something useful and wants to sell it to the big companies. In effect you'd be saying that you can't invent anything unless you plan to sell it yourself.

    4. Re:Patent trolling should be outlawed by chrb · · Score: 3, Interesting

      must be producing something that uses it or actively developing something that uses it

      Two problems:

      • Does the item that uses the patent have to actually do anything? I can take a patent, and then implement some product that I have absolutely no intention of ever selling or releasing to the public. And if I did sell it, would there be a minimum sales threshold for the patent to be valid? If I make a single item, put it on ebay, does that then make the patent valid?
      • What about companies that produce intellectual property, such as patents, and then license those patents to third parties? The patents involved in this model are now no longer valid, because the inventor does not directly produce items for sale?

      The patent system relies on the ability to discriminate between entities with valid patents, and entities without valid patents. This is the fundamental issue - whether this is even possible. Even assuming that it is possible, there are still problems.

      • Who decides whether or not a patent is valid. How is a jury qualified to decide on patent validity? Should there be some alternative? What?
      • The cost. Will the state continue to finance the patent system, through patent offices, examiners, courts? Fixing the patent system will require a greater investment than is currently being made by any nation - who is going to pay for this? The inventor? That would favour rich over the poor. Should it continue to be paid for through taxation? That will require increasing taxes.
      • The current system favours large corporations that can afford to keep patent lawyers on the payroll. Small inventors can not afford court cases that run for years.
      • Geographical scope of patents in a globalised economy. What if a company in China violates your U.S/E.U. patents, running software on servers that are accessible globally? This kind of scenario requires a global patent framework, with some kind of oversight body (WIPO? United Nations?). Do you really want that? If you say that corporations in other countries can willfully violate patents, then corporations will favour locating subsidiaries in countries that have no patent enforcement. We are already seeing this - hardware companies moving to China, which has one of the lowest rates of patent enforcement in the world, and biotech companies opening R&D subsidiaries in India.
      • Where is the evidence that the patent system actually does what it is supposed to - that is, enable real inventors to fairly profit from their inventions, whilst maintaining the right of others to compete fairly by manufacturing their own inventions. When was the last time you heard a positive patent story? Ever?
  2. Think about your breathing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Yes that's right, THINK ABOUT YOUR BREATHING. Why you might ask? Well it's simple!

    Your brain usually takes care of breathing FOR you, but whenever you remember this, YOU MUST MANUALLY BREATH! If you don't you will DIE.

    There are also MANY variations of this. For example, think about:

    * BLINKING!
    * SWALLOWING SALIVA!
    * HOW YOUR FEET FEEL IN YOUR SOCKS!

    In conclusion, the THINK ABOUT YOUR BREATHING troll is simply unbeatable. These 4 words can be thrown randomly into article text, into sigs, into anything, and once seen, WILL FORCE THE VICTIM TO TAKE CARE OF HIS BREATHING MANUALLY! This goes far beyond the simple annoying or insulting trolls of yesteryear.

    In fact, by EVEN RESPONDING to this, you are proving that IT HAS CLAIMED ANOTHER VICTIM -- YOU!

  3. So... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Interesting

    How long before "Non-Practicing Entity" goes from harmless-sounding euphemism to sinister dysphemism, the way terms like "Ethnic Cleansing" have?

    1. Re:So... by eldavojohn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How long before "Non-Practicing Entity" goes from harmless-sounding euphemism to sinister dysphemism, the way terms like "Ethnic Cleansing" have?

      Dysphemism? I don't get it. When has "ethnic cleansing" been used to describe something that wasn't really killing/displacing people that don't align exactly with your ethnicity/religion/culture? That phrase became popular (at least for me) while I was in high school (Hutu & Tutsi conflict, Kosovo) and I haven't heard it used as a "sinister dysphemism" to describe something innocuous where serious stuff wasn't going down.

      Non-Practicing Entity already has a sinister sound to it in my mind. I would compare it more with things like "ponzi scheme" or "tax evasion." Things meant to game the system at other's expenses but can themselves be very hard to define precisely. And once you make them illegal, the people gaming the system just move their foot back so far that their toe is back on the line. For example, say you need to have one working prototype to hold a patent. Well, there's going to be tons of companies just throwing something together and calling it a prototype. Now you say it needs to be working ... so companies like Acacia Research and IP Ventures will stand up some prototype fabrication company that just specializes in that and NDAs. So you say they need a factory. Well, they'll buy abandoned warehouses in Montana and put the working prototypes in the warehouses. It just goes on and on until you realize that you're also hurting the small time inventors that can't afford the factories and then the system is broken a different way.

      I'd love to end patent trolling. I'd love to restrict non-practicing entities. The problem is that I can't really define either of them satisfactorily such that it's not broken another way. Can you?

      --
      My work here is dung.
  4. Hardly a mexican standoff by dgr73 · · Score: 5, Informative
    The article describes the Nokia Apple patent suit/countersuit situation as a mexican standoff. This has been discussed ad nauseum already here on slashdot and I think it's hardly that. Unless you call one person pointing a water pistol and another aiming a cannon a mexican standoff.

    Assuming both sides claims are deemed to have merit and both refuse to pay licensing fees, Nokia has to think of another implementation for some GUI elements, hardly a gargantuan task. However, if Nokia wins, Apple has to reinvent mobile technology, then get all the networks to support their new implementation.

    1. Re:Hardly a mexican standoff by FlorianMueller · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I agree that Nokia vs. Apple/Apple vs. Nokia isn't a Mexican standoff but that Nokia probably owns the far more fundamental mobile patents. However, the problem that Nokia has in this is that its most fundamental patents in the mobile space are part of GSM and other standards. That fact doesn't expropriate Nokia but at some point they could come under pressure that those are patents that should be made available on RAND (reasonable and non-discriminatory) terms. Then Nokia could argue that it is, in Nokia's view, not at all unreasonable to ask Apple for a cross-licensing deal because otherwise Apple could exclusively control some of the more recent technologies (multitouch etc.) while Nokia (and similar vendors) would be expected to grant licenses to their patents only because they're part of older standards definitions.

      Apple faces the typical problem of a late entrant: even if you obtain some patents on new technologies, you still need the underlying old technologies and those patents are generaly still valid, given that patents expire only after 20 years (except for a failure to pay renewal fees, which won't happen if the patent holder is Nokia and the patents are valuable). That's why in an area of incremental innovations patents may not be even remotely as helpful to innovative late entrants as many people are led to believe.

      In terms of waster pistol vs. aiming a cannon, I think this also applies to the Apple/HTC situation and HTC's announcement of yesterday that it's now (counter-)"suing" Apple.

    2. Re:Hardly a mexican standoff by d3xt3r · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It could be a lot worse for Nokia if Apple is able to prove that the licensing fees Nokia requested from Apple for essential GSM patents turns out to be unreasonable. Nokia does hold GSM patents, which as part of a standard are required to be licensed under "fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory" terms. If Apple can prove that Nokia requested unreasonable terms from Apple for the GSM patents, Nokia may be in trouble with the ETSI.

      If anything good comes out of this for future patent encumbered standards, it could be that the courts may be left to define what fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory actually means. As Engadget states in their coverage:

      In reality FRAND is nebulous and undefined, with almost no specific rules for determining what a "fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory" license actually is. source

      It would be nice if these cases were looked at as clear reason why we really need patent reform, but I doubt that's going to happen any time soon.

    3. Re:Hardly a mexican standoff by DMiax · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Were I to decide, I would ask Apple why they did not complain about the licensing cost earlier, instead of waiting to be sued. The best they could hope is convincing me that there was some failed attempt to abuse monopoly from Nokia, but they would still be infringing.

      Obviously, I wish for a patent reform as much as you do, but I am pessimistic as well.

    4. Re:Hardly a mexican standoff by E+IS+mC(Square) · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >> Considering that Apple has done this once already, I'd place money on them to do it again if they have to

      Wait, what? Apple has already reinvented mobile technology? I think you need to a bit easy on that apple kool-aid.

    5. Re:Hardly a mexican standoff by Critical+Facilities · · Score: 2, Insightful

      However, if Nokia wins, Apple has to reinvent mobile technology

      Not really. Apple could just partner with Sprint or Virgin Mobile.

    6. Re:Hardly a mexican standoff by chowdahhead · · Score: 2, Informative

      We don't know the details of the terms, but we do know from the complaint filed in Delaware that Nokia offered to license the technology based on either a per patent fee or one fee for the pool, in addition to interest. Reportedly, it was Apple that offered cross-licensing using UI and multitouch patents as compensation, presumably in place of fees and fines. Nokia rejected this, likely because these patents probably don't have much intrinsic value and could be invalidated as they are based on software implementations. The handset business is a lucrative one, and Apple has made billions from the technology developed by companies like Nokia and Motorola, apparently without contributing anything back to it. It's a difficult situation because we need private companies to research and develop revolutionary technology, and we need unified standards that all competitors can implement, but that's capitalism and that necessitates that companies become compensated for millions or billions USD of private capital spent in the process.

    7. Re:Hardly a mexican standoff by Steve+Max · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That fact doesn't expropriate Nokia but at some point they could come under pressure that those are patents that should be made available on RAND (reasonable and non-discriminatory) terms.

      That's the point: Nokia offered to license the patents under RAND terms to Apple (the same terms they offer other companies, including those that don't have so many GSM-related patents such as Samsung/LG/HTC), and Apple refused to pay. This is the reason Nokia sued: Apple wanted to use their patented technologies without licensing them.

    8. Re:Hardly a mexican standoff by mjwx · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's the point: Nokia offered to license the patents under RAND terms to Apple (the same terms they offer other companies, including those that don't have so many GSM-related patents such as Samsung/LG/HTC), and Apple refused to pay. This is the reason Nokia sued: Apple wanted to use their patented technologies without licensing them.

      To be a bit more precise, Apple paid for the RAND patents as everyone does but Apple did not pay for Nokia's patents not covered by the RAND agreement but proceeded to use them anyway. Nokia kindly asked Apple to pay for two and a half years before filing.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  5. Article missed latest front: HTC 'suing' Apple by FlorianMueller · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The Wired article on mobile patent lawsuits was, quite apparently, written just before the latest front was opened: HTC yesterday announced that it is now "suing" Apple.

    However, at a closer look it becomes clear that HTC didn't file a lawsuit in the traditional meaning of the word, which would mean that they take Apple to a court of law. It is only a complaint with the US International Trade Commission. By contrast, Apple (in March) sued HTC in an actual court of law plus lodged a complaint with the International Trade Commission. Only lodging a complaint is rather weak. Fortune/CNN lists the five patents in play and points out that it's only a complaint, not a suit filed with a court, and is not impressed.

    On my FOSS Patents blog I comment on developments concerning patents and Free and Open Source Software, and I see the squabble over video codecs as a closely related issue. In both cases, Apple is on the side of the large patent holders and Google favors "open" alternatives. Android is a Google-backed project, and as I explained in a three-part sequence of blog posts on video codecs, Google so far backs Theora and it might now try to establish VP8, after open-sourcing it (which may happen very soon), as a codec standard. Apple, however, backs MPEG LA's H.264 (even though Apple is only a small contributor to the MPEG patent pool; for an example, Apple contributed only one patent out of 1,135 to the H.264 pool).

    There's nothing more unpleasant for a proprietary/closed-source vendor to deal with than free/open-source competition. Patents then come into play and can tilt the scales in favor of entrenched proprietary/closed-source players. Sometimes it's sufficient for the major patent holders just to ensure that the "free" alternative won't be completely free, neither completely free as in free beer nor as in free speech. The use of patents against vendors of Android-based phones mobile phone operating software will probably result in increased prices and possibly also in reduced functionality of Android-based phones. The use of patents against open-source video codecs, which Steve Jobs said would happen but without providing any specifics, would have a similar effect for Theora and, possibly, VP8.

  6. Um, not quite. by __aagbwg300 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    non-practising entities [patent trolls]

    While all patent trolls may be non-practicing entities (NPEs), not all NPEs are patent trolls. Individual inventors, the kind that don't have the spare four or five billion dollars necessary to build a processor lab, are NPEs and often unfairly get labelled trolls. Also, don't forget universities and government laboratories. Under the parent's definition of troll, anyone who invents something but doesn't follow through with marketing a product must necessarily be a troll. The intellectual property world is more complicated than that. Real trolls can be NPEs or companies trying to squeeze their competitors - in fact, the latter is much more common than the former.

  7. but that's not the *big* problem by ciaran_o_riordan · · Score: 3, Informative

    Patent trolls are a problem for big companies that have lots of money. Trolls have nothing to do with HTML5 not being able to recommend a video codec, and they've nothing to do with worries about how Microsoft will use their patents on .doc, XML, or Mono. Some trolls *do* practice their invention, like the mp3 guys that made a packet from trolling - and as a side-effect, completely insignificant to them, forced GNU/Linux distros to omit mp3 support.

    To solve the social problems caused by software patents, we have to abolish them - tweaking the numbers to reduce the problems of mega corporations is not *our* job.

  8. The lone inventor is not affected by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The lone inventor is not affected. If he's patented something that someone else is using, we have the following options:

    1) They stole it. To do this, the lone inventor will have had to have shown their patent to someone. Stealing it is not possible because the number of lone inventors prohibits

    2) They parallel invented it. In which case, either
    a) it's obvious and not patentable
    b) it's unfair of the lone inventor to lock someone out who also had the same idea

    3) The patent was granted and they copied what the patent said. Unlikely. How many places read all the patents to see what's out there? Nobody, that's who.

    The holes left for a lone inventor to be shafted unfairly after all those is pretty damn small. As it is, the chances of EVERYONE being shafted without trolling being banned is pretty damn high. Cost/benefit analysis: go with it.

    Add to that the lone inventor is already shafted by a bigger entity using their "defensive" patent pool against the lone inventor (without a large warchest, pool of patents, and salaried law department), even where the lone inventor is shafted, there are bigger places to un-shaft him.

  9. The #1 question: What Will Google Do? by FlorianMueller · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The Wired article and most of the media reports and the comments here are focused on patent disputes between the hardware companies involved. But according to a recent announcement, Android is now a high-volume mobile phone operating system and everyone knows that it's a Google project.

    Those vendors who, like HTC, decided to build smartphones running on Android had access to the program code on open-source terms. They may not have a formal contract in place with Google at all, or if there is one, it will be more focused on trademark rights because the software itself is under a free license. Still they probably all took a great deal of confidence from Google's backing of Android.

    I don't mean to criticize Google for what it has (not) done yet: to step into the ring and bail out companies who took major business decisions based on their reliance upon a Google open-source project. But at some point in time, of which one can certainly argue that it hasn't come yet, there will be industry concern and also concern in the wider Free and Open Source Software community over the extent to which Google stands behind the open-source software it puts out. Google has a significant patent portfolio (small compared to the portfolios of IBM, Microsoft and even Apple, but still much bigger than that of HTC). Google could also pay royalties to patent holders given the important role that Android plays in its overall corporate strategy (Google could become a master licensee of the required patents and then grant sublicenses to vendors selling Android-based phones).

    There are rumors that Google plans to open-source the VP8 video codec and it might happen very soon. Multimedia codecs are also a terrible patent minefield. Similarly as mobile phone operating software, they are an OEM component, meaning others incorporate them into their commercial products. Again, it's too early to blame Google for anything here, but the fact that Google doesn't try to bail out the vendors that propagate its Android software raises questions and if Google indeed does open-source VP8, industry will probably want to know about the patent situation. I believe that Google should then at the very least publish an analysis of the patent situation surrounding VP8, including the reasons why Google believes it doesn't infringe on any of the patents held by the MPEG LA pool. That's just one way to look at it. Commercial vendors may, based on the Android experience, actually ask Google for the possibility of an agreement under which Google would hold them harmless of patent infringement suits.

    Again, the jury is still out on Google and patent problems with its open-source software, but I believe it's in Google's own best interest to counter an impression that Google puts out open-source projects it effectively controls and lets others take not only the risk that is connected with hardware manufacturing but also, even worse in my view, the risk related to possible patent infringement. It would come down to a game of "if Google wins, it wins; if Google loses (due to patents), its hardware partners lose."

    I will be following those future developments closely on my FOSS Patents blog covering open-source patent issues. Now it's still too early to claim Google isn't committed to protecting its open-source initiatives.

  10. Re:Business as usual by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 2, Funny

    The Americas first telegram, transmitted via a repeater: "What hath God wrought" sent by Samuel F.B. Morse in 1844.

    And the first reply was:
    I'm sorry, God is not available at the moment. To leave a message for God please transmit your message after the beep. When you are finished transmit '1' for more options.

  11. What are the features beign infringed? by s.whiplash · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What are the features that Apple, or the other companies, say are being infringed?

    I have been using a Windows based smart phone for 7+ years and before that a Palm based smart phone for 4 years. There isn't anything new in the Apple phone that I haven't been doing for 6+ years, except for flinging your thumb to go to the next screen, but Palm was doing screen gestures 7 years ago. Plus other applications and systems have been doing similar things for a long time also.

    Apple, and to an extent other companies, are great at marketing, by telling you they have all of this new technology, but non of it is really new of that different then what has been available for years.

  12. Big patent holders are still the bigger problem by FlorianMueller · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I don't mean to downplay the problem that patent trolls / non-producing entites represent, but they're a feature not a bug of the patent system, as Carlo Piana, a European lawyer specialized on Free and Open Source Software matters, recently said on Twitter. The proponents of this kind of patent system simply want trolls to exist, even though they will from time to time have problems with them themselves.

    But a troll just wants to make the money. It's a hold-up situation if you face a troll, but if you cough up the money, he'll leave you alone and focus on the next victim. Even though $600 million is a huge amount, RIM (the BlackBerry maker) not only survived but actually generated huge levels of profits ever since.

    By contrast, if Apple decides that no one else should use certain multitouch and other functionality, then only those with a really massive patent arsenal ("mutually assured destruction"), which is what Nokia may indeed have, will be able to solve the problem through cross-licensing. But it's economically practically impossible to solve the problem by offering Apple a check because the strategic value of maintaining a certain competitive advantage is so valuable to the market leader that smaller players can't solve the problem by paying. So if Apple insists on its rights, it can tell vendors such as HTC to stop providing certain functionality, period. Unconditionally. No negotiation. Cease and desist. The only chance then may be that if you can prove a dominant position, antitrust law could be used to achieve compulsory licensing. In Apple's case, that would be very difficult to say the least...

    Again, I don't mean to downplay the problem with patent trolls, but in order to ensure that incremental innovation can take place for the benefit of consumers, it's key to watch what the large patent holders are doing, starting with the biggest patent bully on the block, IBM, but also looking at everything else that's going on.

    1. Re:Big patent holders are still the bigger problem by FlorianMueller · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Now I understand what you mean in general but I still can't see how one could make this work. There can be great ideas from a perspective of what would be fair and desirable but transforming them into a workable rule that works under the law is not always possible.

      Assuming a patent relates to something that's new (which is the way it should be but patent offices often fail to find prior art), then it's logically inevitable that at the beginning (after the grant of the patent) there won't be anyone from whom the patent holder could collect royalties. Then it takes time for a new market entrant (such as RIM in the BlackBerry case) to build a business. You can't expect a patent holder to be aware of every little guy out there potentially infringing on his patent. It won't even be possible for the patent holder to monitor the entire market at all times, but even if the patent holder identifies an infringement, there's no alternative to letting the patent holder decide when the time has come to assert the patent. Given the cost of legal work (even before you go to court, but especially if you do), the patent holder may indeed determine that an identified infringer is (at least for the time being) too small to justify the enormous cost of enforcing the patent.

      What would be possible (and has been more or less proposed as part of a patent reform initiative) is to do away with the right of patent holders to obtain injunctive relief. That would amount to what you say about a right to collect royalties.

      I believe this would indeed be an improvement, but only if it's also ensured that damages are calculated on a reasonable basis, considering that a complex information technology product (such as a BlackBerry) consists of a very large number of potentially patentable elements.

      What the critics of this idea not to allow injunctions say is that in the event of a patent dispute with a very large patent holder and a small one suing each other, the ability to obtain an injunction may be the only major leverage that the little guy can have because it would obviously hurt the big company if it has to stop (or has to fear a potential obligation to stop) selling an important product. I just wanted to mention that argument for the sake of completeness. I still think it would be better to do away with injunctions in the IT sector. In the pharma sector, injunctions are very much required, however, based on what I have read. That's often the problem with patent reform: different industries have different need. In IT, it's about incremental innovation and potentially many patents that are relevant to a single product. In pharma, the number of relevant patents per product is very low.

  13. Re:Complaint is weaker than complaint+lawsuit by intheshelter · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Really? Do you really believe that they are holding back the dogs because they are trying to achieve sainthood? Come on. . ..

  14. Re:One more reason to stay away from smartphones by hallucinogen · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you spent over 40 billion EUR in R&D (like Nokia) I'm sure you'd sue as well if you thought that somebody was stealing your innovation (like Apple). Thankfully this isn't about "mind share" but actual merits. Nokia just might end up killing Apple's mobile ventures. As a Finn I'm totally rooting for Nokia because they make up a large chunk of our nation's GDP.