Women Dropping Out of IT

Women's eNews has an interesting look at women in tech, with numbers showing that women are bailing out of the IT field at a rapid pace. "Technology jobs are predicted to grow at a faster rate than all other jobs in the professional sector, up to 22% over the next decade, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Compensation is also good. In 2008, women in tech made an average salary of $70,370. ... But women's stake in that rosy outlook is questionable. For starters, men's pay during the same time period was $80,357. A study by the National Center for Women and Information Technology ... also finds that women are leaving computer careers in staggering numbers. 'Fifty-six percent of women in technology companies leave their organizations at the mid-level point, 10-20 years in their careers,' said Catherine Ashcraft, the senior research scientist who authored the report. In 2008, women held only 25% of all professional IT-related jobs, down from 36% in 1991, according to the group's report, 'Women in IT: The Facts.'"

Comments

This just proves

[Anonymous Coward]

They're smarter than the men.

Re:This just proves

[Anonymous Coward]

He's absolutely right. Women are too smart for careers in computers. Most intelligent women take a close look at the unrepentantly fucked-up culture that surrounds computing careers, and run like hell.

It's men who are dumb enough to tolerate the aspy-programmer types, the sneering arrogant IT guys, the mailing lists full of flaming personal attacks leveled by closet bullies empowered by semi-anonymity, the phallic-compensating gadget consumerists, constantly "helpful" types who manage to insult while trying to rescue, and the sexually inept who use pinup wallpaper and leer at any woman in eyeshot. Membership in (or at least tolerance of) a repellant boys' club is an almost-mandatory feature of our industry.

Men don't have to be passionate about computers and programming to do well in our field. It's possible to be a day-job geek who never plays video games, doesn't own an iphone, and doesn't read xkcd, yet still thrive in high-tech. They get flamed them for a few newbie questions and they'll just think you're an asshole. But brilliant women who are not passionate about the field are smart enough to tell us all to go fuck ourselves after the first serious flame, because they know nobody should have to put up with that shit.

So yes. Women are in fact generally too smart for careers in computers. He nailed it.

Re:This just proves

[Anonymous Coward]

I just quit my 15 year IT career to be an artist. As a bonus, all the medical conditions I had while in IT disappeared within 2 months of leaving it. I probably just added years to my life expectancy. My salary went way down, of course. Then again, without all the stress I'll live to spend some of it now.

IT isn't a place for women, but it's not a place for men either. It's a sinkhole that takes the best and brightest and turns them into bitter husks (if they don't run off screaming first).

IT careers are fundamentally broken. IT is not treated like a science. IT workers don't have unions to protect them like mechanics and doctors. IT gets the worst of everything. Most people can only immerse themselves in code and gadgetry for so long before they notice that their peers appear to be leading more enjoyable lives.

I still like computers and I follow the latest technologies that interest me, but I never intend to work IT again. It's just not worth it.

Re:This just proves

[Requiem18th]

Fucking Gods! The is the most sexists post I've seen in slashdot in ages! But its aimed at men so it ok right?

Women are not more intelligent than men, statistics prove it. Women simply have different options and opportunities.

It's men who are dumb enough to tolerate the aspy-programmer types, the sneering arrogant IT guys,

These are mostly myth, sure they exists but I've been in several IT firms and people are generally nice.

the mailing lists full of flaming personal attacks leveled by closet bullies empowered by semi-anonymity,

That's human interaction for you, guess what? Women are prone to as much if not much more drama when it comes to discussions.

the phallic-compensating gadget consumerists,

Yes! The only reason people consume is because they have small dicks! That explains why women love to go shopping! No wait, consuming is only bad when you are a guy right?

constantly "helpful" types who manage to insult while trying to rescue,

Again myth, and you'd be surprised how women manage to be dickheads nonetheless. My mother worked in an all female environment and I've heard several stories about abusive bosses and cheating employees.

and the sexually inept who use pinup wallpaper and leer at any woman in eyeshot.

Teehee, you said "sexually inept", you should've said "sexually repressed" but of course you wanted to be as offensive as possible.

Even so this is about your only stab that almost hits something, but women aren't excepmt from this because they are smarter, they have the privilege of having a lower sex drive meaning not only they have less urges but also that there's a ton of guys ready to calm any urge that might arise.

Men don't have to be passionate about computers and programming to do well in our field.

That's questionable, Show me a good programmer that isn't passionate about programming.

But even so, what shall we do with men who ARE passionate about programming? Shot them?

But brilliant women who are not passionate about the field are smart enough to tell us all to go fuck ourselves after the first serious flame, because they know nobody should have to put up with that shit.

Well if they are not passionate about the field by definition they don't have the drive to remain in the field you dumb ass. What about brilliant women who ARE passionate about computers? Or does passion about a carrier equal stupidity? Or is it maybe just for IT?

Your post is dripping with sexism, hate and intentional stupidity. A modern society should not have any acceptance for such a despicable attitude.

Re:This just proves

[commodore64_love]

>>>all the medical conditions I had while in IT disappeared within 2 months of leaving it

I refuse to let myself become stressed-out in my job. Even if my boss is breathing down my back and saying, "If you don't get this done I'll find someone else who can," I just ignore the mother fucker. I chose this career to ENJOY it not to be treated like a McDonalds employee, and if he does replace me with somebody else, so be it. At least I'll be happier than Mr. Heart Attack.

Re:This just proves

[JWSmythe]

    My IT career quit me. {sigh}

    I haven't found new work in it, and with a total income of a whopping $0 (not including unemployment and friends giving me food and places to sleep), I have to consider other options.

    I've been trying to find serious IT work. I'm either:

1) Over qualified, where they don't want me because the senior folks are afraid I'll take their job, or I'll bail as soon as better money comes along.

2) Not qualified, because I don't know some specific qualification required for the position. I may seem like I know everything, but it's still impossible to know everything.

3) Not interested at the rate. $10/hr for a 3 month part time gig that requires moving across the country to a high cost of living area isn't exactly an acceptable offer.

    So women are leaving IT? Big deal. Lots of people are. I'm about ready to be a short order cook, or an auto mechanic, but lately I've just been a handyman, doing anything friends need in exchange for food, drinks, and places to sleep.

Re:This just proves

[KiloByte]

If anti-intellectualism is what is required to blend well with the society, I say: fuck the society.

Re:This just proves

[assertation]

It's possible to be a day-job geek who never plays video games, doesn't own an iphone, and doesn't read xkcd, yet still thrive in high-tech.

Its also possible to be passionate about IT and not be into those things either. It is called being your own man.

I do agree with you about the tendencies of the IT culture.

I see it and get tired of it from time to time.

Re:This just proves

[DarkTempes]

I fail to see how 'rapid ambulation' is unnecessarily complicated. I suppose he could replace 'any form of rapid ambulation' with 'running away' or 'rapid ambulation' with 'speed walking' but those do change the meaning somewhat.

At worst it's like using an int instead of a short. And I do believe slashdot qualifies as hanging out at the A/V club...I can't believe your original post was moderated insightful on a forum that I would think cherishes use of an extensive vocabulary. It was Funny though =)

Re:This just proves

[Richy_T]

It's not necessary to use herbs, spices or condiments with food either. Have fun with your plain potato language.

Re:This just proves

[digitig]

Fucking Gods! The is the most sexists post I've seen in slashdot in ages! But its aimed at men so it ok right?

Women are not more intelligent than men, statistics prove it. Women simply have different options and opportunities.

And neurosceince also shows that on average they have different skills and different motivations. But people get upset when that's pointed out becuase they don't understand the "on average" bit.

Re:This just proves

[lawpoop]

Using big words is not an act of intellect.

Re:This just proves

[metlin]

Seeking simplicity and ease of understanding is not anti-intellectualism.

If you need to use convoluted phrases to assert your intellect, then you're probably not someone most people would want to be acquainted with.

Re:This just proves

[aeoo]

I chose this career to ENJOY it not to be treated like a McDonalds employee

Of course it's completely wrong to treat McDonalds or any other employees that way. The way our society just keeps referring to McDonalds in a way you have done is a sign of how sick our business culture is.

That explains the pay difference...

[Anonymous Coward]

In 2008, women in tech made an average salary of $70,370...men's pay during the same time period was $80,357....
Fifty-six percent of women in technology companies leave their organizations at the mid-level point, 10-20 years in their careers

Children?

[leenks]

Could it possibly be that women drop out of these jobs 10-20 years into their careers to have children? Could this also explain the difference in "average" salary if their careers have a break or work shorter weeks?

Re:Children?

[Pharmboy]

Actually, it does have something to do with it. When a woman takes parental leave, she goes on the bottom of the list to move up. And like it or not, women almost always get stuck with making sure the kids get to school, go to the doctor, etc. so she is usually the one who has to leave work early or miss an entire day on short notice, further putting her on bottom of the promotion list. When kids are sick, day care will NOT accept them (fever = no acceptance). Well shit, kids get sick all the time, and it is almost always mom that stays home with them, not dad. Who has to pick the kids up at school or day care? Mom usually gets that task.

Don't get me wrong, there are some great dads out there, but facts are facts and mom still does most of the maintenance in the vast majority of families. Typically, dad's job pays more, so the lesser paid takes more risk by taking time off. This is a cultural issue.

Even in a perfect situation where 1 man and 1 woman start the same job at the same pay and are equally capable, the woman will usually end up being slightly less reliable, punctual, and willing to work overtime. This is a trade off that she has made, and at the end of the day, the boss *IS* going to favor the guy who always shows up on time and will work overtime with no notice, no questions asked. That doesn't make him a bad boss, actually it is expected that you give the promotions and raises to the person showing the most initiative.

And when a woman takes off for 2 to 3 months, PAID, it does hurt the perception of her in the workplace. I know, I've seen it. The guys bitch because of it, and since most of the employees are guys to begin with, it puts the woman on the outside looking in. And if a woman is 3 months pregnant, the boss doesn't want to put her in charge of a long term project because she will be gone for a few months and maybe not come back ever. I see that happen all the time, where the woman works until birth is close just to get the 3 months extra pay, knowing she is going to not come back. I can't blame her, even if it causes problems for work. Even when a boss is perfectly fair, he would be negligent if he didn't consider these facts.

I'm certainly not trying to rag on women at all, but these are real world examples of why some women get paid less. Having 3 kids in 8 years will produce enough "paid while off" time that any boss HAS to consider it when promoting.

Re:Children?

[jayveekay]

"56% of women in technology companies leave their organizations at the mid-level point, 10-20 years in their careers," said Catherine Ashcraft, the senior research scientist who authored the report.

Is 56% a large number relative to other careers? What percentage of women in retail sales change companies in their 30s? What percentage of men in tech companies change jobs in their 30s? Are we supposed be shocked by the number 56% in the absence of anything to compare it to?

I'm a guy who has been working as a software developer for 20 years, and I changed organizations (companies) in my 30s. And it had nothing to do with children.

Re:Children?

[merlinokos]

And when a woman takes off for 2 to 3 months, PAID, it does hurt the perception of her in the workplace. I know, I've seen it. The guys bitch because of it, and since most of the employees are guys to begin with, it puts the woman on the outside looking in. And if a woman is 3 months pregnant, the boss doesn't want to put her in charge of a long term project because she will be gone for a few months and maybe not come back ever. I see that happen all the time, where the woman works until birth is close just to get the 3 months extra pay, knowing she is going to not come back. I can't blame her, even if it causes problems for work. Even when a boss is perfectly fair, he would be negligent if he didn't consider these facts.

The fact that men react negatively to a woman taking time off to have children is, in itself, a sign that there's something wrong with the culture you work in.

I work in the UK and have never seen that at any company I have worked for. No resentment, no difficulties, no problems. It has always been understood where I work that people grow up and sometimes want children. Women are biologically equipped to carry children, and so it benefits society to make allowances for women so they can have children.

Any culture which doesn't respect simple biological functions and make allowances for it is simply broken.

Does "Technology" = "IT" ?

[RobotRunAmok]

The terms are being used interchangeably here. The bloom is off the rose on IT careers, certainly (in the US, at least), and not just for women. And the number/type of pure IT careers is imploding, I'm sure (once upon a time there were "webmasters" who were counted as IT guys). But capital "T" Technology as a whole? The highly technical careers that use computers and software as tools? I'm not convinced.

Fewer woman programmers and server room jockeys, OK. But fewer woman technology workers and technicians? Not so sure. Sounds like stats being massaged to prove a point for somebody...

Re:Sexist field

[jjohnson]

You're absolutely right, but take it a step further: Even without women, why do we put up with bullshit pseudo-macho alpha geek behaviour? It's not like it's any benefit to getting the job done, and it smacks of the same sort of delusions that young lawyers and young stock brokers fall prey to, the "go hard or go home" school of working yourself to death for your boss's sake.

Well, actually, I don't. Nearing my 40th birthday, my consultancy is screaming along, and dealing with other IT guys in their late 30s, I find we're all quite mature and professional, and don't behave in ways that women would find offputting, usually because we have wives and often daughters that remind us that keyboard commandos aren't the only or best people in the world.

Dilbert?

[jayveekay]

It's men who are dumb enough to tolerate the aspy-programmer types, the sneering arrogant IT guys, the mailing lists full of flaming personal attacks leveled by closet bullies empowered by semi-anonymity, the phallic-compensating gadget consumerists, constantly "helpful" types who manage to insult while trying to rescue, and the sexually inept who use pinup wallpaper and leer at any woman in eyeshot. Membership in (or at least tolerance of) a repellant boys' club is an almost-mandatory feature of our industry.

In a 20 year career as a software developer:
1. I haven't met any programmers suffering from Asperger's Syndrom (I assume this is what "aspy" means, correct me if I'm wrong)
2. I haven't known any "sneering arrogant IT guys". The IT guys I've met have been normal, helpful human beings.
3. I have seen some harsh emails, but not often and nothing like the venom you describe
4. I can't recall any "phallic compensation gadget consumerists", but perhaps I'm not looking hard enough...
5. I haven't met any "constantly helpful types who insult while trying to rescue"
6. I have seen some teenage male type usage of naked women pictures, but that's been quite rare. Do you think that teenage male types only exist in the tech industry?

Do you think that "boys clubs" are more prevalent in the tech industry than other industries? The problems that you cite probably exist in most companies to one degree or another.

Re:why? because..

[Justus]

So? Men do the same to me, and I am a man. That's how men communicate. Is it rude? Yes but that's how men are - constantly interrupting one another. It's not because you're a woman but because the men are treating you like any other man. You need to learn to interrupt them too, if you want to be heard.

That has nothing to do with sex. If you're constantly interrupting and talking over people, you're a rude asshole, and it's definitely not just “how men communicate.” It's perfectly possible for men to have good manners and follow appropriate turn-taking when having a conversation.

However, I will say that there are many assholes out there who have not mastered this basic form of courtesy, so I can see how you might get the impression that it's the norm. I've also known some chauvinists who would be more likely to talk over a woman than a man, so I can empathize with the grandparent poster.