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Zoho Don't Need No Stinking Ph.D. Programmers
theodp writes "When it comes to tech academic credentials, Zoho CEO Sridhar Vembu has The Right Stuff: a Ph.D. in EE from Princeton. But Vembu has eschewed Google's Army-of-Ph.D.s approach to software development in favor of tapping into the ranks of high school grads who would not normally go to college for Zoho. Seeing his youngest brother succeed at programming without a college degree convinced Vembu that others could follow that example with the proper training and guidance. And studying the best employees in his own company led to another epiphany: 'What if the college degree itself is not really that useful?' thought Vembu. 'What if we took kids after high school, train them ourselves?'"
Many, many people have gotten themselves trapped into paying off student loans for the rest of their lives for a degree that is inherently worthless. Expect a lot of denial of this truth contained in this article because for some people the idea that they sold themselves into debt slavery for nothing is too much to bear.
That is how I learned to program. I started out at 13 with basic and have moved up. That is also how I learned about computers. 22 years later I am a full-time programmer and a Network Admin. Self taught all the way.
Kosh: "Understanding is a 3 edged sword, your side, their side, the Truth."
The students are taught very little theory, avoiding computer science altogether.
Yes there are many things you can do in programming without a formal education, and I'm all for rewarding people who want to make an effort. But by not studying theory they are missing out on all those giants whose shoulders they could be standing on. This will lead to wasted effort as they reinvent everything from the wheel to Unix badly.
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
Do you have any data to back up your claim that non-college educated folk are dim-witted drains on society? Or are you just being a douche?
I know a lot of people that have no college at all. Some volunteer at shelters, most have traveled the world extensively, and continue to challenge and learn new things on their own just fine. The difference being is they don't pay some stuffy institution for the privilege.
Attending college doesn't make you better at anything. In fact most people I knew back in college were a bunch of binge drinking twats that hardly turned out to be better citizens.
No sig for you!!
After some 15 years in the industry one thing is amazingly clear; Formal computer science education is more of a warning sign then a merit badge.
The vast majority of people I've worked with that actually had a CS degree have been inept to put it kindly. Regardless of experience, if they went to college for computers chances are good they have trouble wiping their own ass. While I've worked with a few very notable exceptions, the rule still firmly stands. Maybe it's because I'm a product of the dot.com boom, but most people that get a CS degree did it purely for the money and not at all because they had a talent or interest in computers.
The one unifying trait in good, practical computer professionals is an aptitude for music. Pretty much all played an instrument and most still regularly do. Any college degree they have tends to be in something random that interested them, like sociology, if they have a degree at all.
My
Hiring coders out of high school may very well work for some projects, and those kids may be happy to have a "real job". But in the long run the joke will be on them. Unless they plan to spend the rest of their life in that company (unlikely, as they seem intent on using a cheap supply of fresh young kids) they will find that most projects do appreciate (and need) a bit more education. Back to school for them, and not at the time when it's most convenient - it's hard to go back.
On the specific issue of coding vs. education. 20 years ago I started working as a software developer full time before I had any education above high school. I did some useful things that seemed "cool" then and worked out well enough for my employers. 20 years forward and two masters degrees later (Comp. Eng and Comp.Sc./Infosec) I can see that I am by far a better engineer (and coder too, but that's almost secondary), in part due to all the experience and in part due to education. I would have never been able to do what I do now without additional years of studying.
YMMV
After high school (with AP Comp Sci classes) I joined the military. I became a 4067 (computer programmer) in the USMC. I did my tour and got a good conduct discharge (ie: Good citizen). I joined the ranks of software developer consultants and did pretty well for myself until the market went to complete crap after the .Com blow out. I figured I'd use the down turn in the economy along with my GI Bill and veterans benefits to go get a degree and make myself more marketable.
Picked up a Comp Sci Assoc first and followed it up with a double load BSIT and BSTM program.
All in all, I learned virtually nothing about writing code in college. I learned a lot about working with other people and many of the soft skills that go along with coding. But at that point, even the highest level programming classes at the school were child's play.
Point being, you can get excellent programmers from high school graduates, but their soft skills are likely going to be horrendous. If that's fine for your environment, then go for it. But realize that what you are getting is a junior coder, not a senior developer.
Then again, most high school kids picking up high tech jobs (in my experience) are freaking sponges. They suck up every bit of knowledge they get exposed too. College grads, especially the ones from more prestigious institutions, constantly rebut and argue against the tried and true. Any time I hear, "My professor said..." it makes me want to vomit.
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
In my experience commercial software programming productivity is greatly hampered by the successful completion of a PhD. To complete a PhD you need to convince a committee of professors that you have done unique work in your field. You do this by publishing research and collating it into a dissertation. The type of software required to obtain research results for publication in most fields is completely different then what I need my programmers to deliver for me to ship a marketable product on time and on cost. PhDs often don't get things like O(n^2) algs should NEVER appear in commercial code because they will always blow up, and that not anticipating invalid input and just crashing isn't allowed. Both of these practices are just fine in research code. You may need a couple pointy heads around to make sure you are applying the best solution to your problem at hand, but give me anyone with a BS and demonstrated skills over a PhD any day for writing production code. (I want the BS/BA because it shows me you can complete something and can deal with crap you don't like because I'm paying you to do it).
"This mission is too important to allow you to jeopardize it." -- HAL
Maybe true in general, but most, if not all, of the brightest minds on earth got tired of college and did their own thing for much better results. Heck, I'm not one of the brightest minds on earth and I did the same. I learn better and faster on my own. With a book and an internet connection, I can pick up the basics of almost anything in about a month of spare time. I taught myself C++ basics over the course of a summer when I was 11 mostly out of boredom and curiosity, last time I was in a college CompSci programming class they didn't introduce that much information the whole semester.
College is a good place to learn to learn if you have the ability and haven't yet picked it up, otherwise, it's redundant.
>>Do you have any data to back up your claim that non-college educated folk are dim-witted drains on society? Or are you just being a douche?
In a startup, I took a group of 6 very bright community college guys (active game modders and the like, but no formal training) and taught them technical skills, like programming, sys admin stuff, etc.
Verdict: I'd rather hire people with a four year degree in computer science.
As much as I liked the guys, they just didn't have enough background in computer science to succeed. I'm not in the business of running a four year university to train them, and they had the net effect of increasing my workload instead of decreasing it. Being involved in three other businesses already, I had to scrap the experiment after a half year.