Zoho Don't Need No Stinking Ph.D. Programmers

theodp writes "When it comes to tech academic credentials, Zoho CEO Sridhar Vembu has The Right Stuff: a Ph.D. in EE from Princeton. But Vembu has eschewed Google's Army-of-Ph.D.s approach to software development in favor of tapping into the ranks of high school grads who would not normally go to college for Zoho. Seeing his youngest brother succeed at programming without a college degree convinced Vembu that others could follow that example with the proper training and guidance. And studying the best employees in his own company led to another epiphany: 'What if the college degree itself is not really that useful?' thought Vembu. 'What if we took kids after high school, train them ourselves?'"

Comments

Yay for common sense

[Lord Grey]

Whoa. Someone with common sense. Someone in charge with common sense! I need to get some people around my workplace to read this blog entry.

Based on a few years of observation, we noticed that there was little or no correlation between academic performance, as measured by grades [and] the type of college a person attended, and their real on-the-job performance. ...

While I'm sure that everyone's personal experience is different, this observation matches perfectly with what I've seen over the last 30 years or so in the field. On-the-job performance is the application of skills that are atually needed somewhere. Education in school is teaching something that may be needed at some future date. A new graduate still has to learn how to adapt their knowledge to the real world. Given what schools seem to be teaching these days, and the typical student's retention rate and enthusiasm, I'm not surprised that grads and non-grads are about equal in skill after working for awhile.

... That was a genuine surprise, particularly for me, as I grew up thinking grades really mattered.

Kudos for admitting that, Vembu. I hope others follow your example.

Re:Yay for common sense

[Wonko the Sane]

Many, many people have gotten themselves trapped into paying off student loans for the rest of their lives for a degree that is inherently worthless. Expect a lot of denial of this truth contained in this article because for some people the idea that they sold themselves into debt slavery for nothing is too much to bear.

Re:Yay for common sense

[GreatAntibob]

Gotta disagree with you. College is NOT a glorified vocational school, even if some people in CS treat it as such.

Any decent college won't claim that the knowledge you gain is worth anything in 5 years. Their purpose is (and should be) teaching some fundamental principles of a particular major discipline (CS, in this case), and, more importantly, a set of attitudes and philosophies that teach you how to teach yourself. In engineering, you know your basic skill set will be obsolete in 5 years (and the Head of our EE dept. told us this before classes even began), so it's more important to get the basic mental framework in place and learn how to learn.

Even at my place of work, some talented high school students could probably be taught how to do the job about as fast and well as college graduates. The difference comes 2 or 3 years down the road. The people most able to keep up with emerging trends and extending their abilities tend to be the ones with degrees. And it tends to be the ones with PhDs or Masters that do better at it. The ones whose skill sets don't seem to expand as quickly or as much do tend to be the ones with less schooling.

Re:Yay for common sense

[OzPeter]

Many, many people have gotten themselves trapped into paying off student loans for the rest of their lives for a degree that is inherently worthless.

On the other hand I got a 4 year electrical engineering degree from a respected university for a grand total of about US$500. Thats what you get growing up in a country where the government thinks that education was important. I have no idea what student loan is and I think made my money back about 25 years ago.

Re:Yay for common sense

[Rogerborg]

Teaching someone how to learn is like fucking them into virginity.

Re:Yay for common sense

[bigstrat2003]

You paid for it just like the rest of us. The only difference is that your payment came (and comes) in the form of taxes, rather than student loans (or whatever else).

I'm not trying to make judgements as to which way is better. I'm merely saying you shouldn't be deluded into thinking that it was free (or nearly free, in your case), simply because you didn't write a check to your school.

Re:Yay for common sense

[lgw]

My current employer did a background check that included my high school records. Sadly, the cuniform tablets had crumbled.

Almost every employer will veryify that you in fact worked at each place that you claimed on your resume, and most large companies now have automated systems to facilitate this. Claiming that you worked somewhere that you didn't is a very stupid way to pad your resume.

Just because they're not askinng you for proof means nothing.

Re:Yay for common sense

[Lumpy]

I'll take their taxes and free higher education over the mess we have any day.

Even if they quadruple my taxes, it's still far cheaper than what I owe for my education + the interest I have to pay. Only a complete fool thinks the USA system is better than elsewhere. Paying 4X my current taxes for 40 years will be cheaper than my student loans.

Re:Yay for common sense

[cervo]

I gotta disagree a little bit. A lot of a college CS program is not outdated in 5 years. Consequently a lot of it does not apply at all to most jobs....

Operating Systems -- The underlying principles are mostly the same
Algorithms -- New ones are constantly being discovered but the most popular ones have been the same for 30+ years mostly (the undergrad level ones are generally not newer things)...
Networking -- Some changes with wireless but most of the TCP/IP protocol that is taught in undergrad courses is the same
Discrete Math -- Again mostly the same for the past 30 years
Computer Organization -- Mostly this is the same (assuming the course on digital system design/k-maps/binary number systems/etc...)
Some Intro Programming Class -- The underlying concepts apply, although the specific language is changing all the time. Although they are not that different...C#/Java/C++ all imperative languages

The rest is all math (Calculus...not changing, Linear Algebra, etc...) and electives (Compilers, Databases, etc.). A lot of the electives are mostly the same at an undergraduate level. Although there do seem to be more fad of the minute classes, ie iPhone game design or state of the art classes...ie Video Game Design..... But they are in the minority and in 1998-2002 when I was an undergrad they didn't exist...in my school (today they do)

What seems to change hourly are the various libraries/programming language of the day/framework of the day. And my college didn't teach any of those. It focused on the core CS concepts, not specific technologies. Although we did use Oracle/MySQL a bit in database class, we did not learn Oracle/MySQL, we just used it as a vehicle for expressing concepts in class. Programming assignments were mostly straight forward algorithm implementations which just used programming concepts and easily can be ported into any language. We didn't get crazy into C++/Java specific things.

But one of my complaints has been that I really don't use any of that... I use some common sense things from algorithms about linked lists/arrays/hash tables and the various orders of magnitudes of common applications, but mostly I use libraries that implement them. And I knew that stuff before algorithms class. Mostly in business program you are using the STL/Java Library/C# libraries and all the collections are implemented. For building a quick GUI to a database it really doesn't take the advanced math/concepts of a CS program.... Admittedly if you were building video games or working for Google then sure computer architecture and advanced knowledge comes in handy. In a Google phone interview they took everything into consideration, the memory hierarchy, the swap space, disk access times, etc... With a job like that it is good to know the PC to wring out performance... Or video game programming because games are constantly pushing the envelope. But those are the exception, not the rule.

Where I have failed and a lot of companies are failing is that for the first job it is important for a lot of grads to learn how to organize big programs and program with an eye towards maintenance. That is where you really learn how to program (or working on an open source project). Colleges don't teach that. Most assignments are short, maybe 1,000 lines of code or less. Also you usually don't need to maintain them, so you can throw a bunch of garbage together that runs correctly and then wash your hands of it. Implementing a Hash Table, or maybe your own database class that writes to a file is not the same thing as taking over some 10,000 line accounting package....

Re:Yay for common sense

[ahankinson]

Hm. You have a very charming witticism, but I think you're wrong.

You can teach critical thinking, which is a major component in learning how to learn. True, some people are better at it than others, but it can be a skill you pick up. If not, everyone would be born understanding Plato and Wittgenstein.

Re:Yay for common sense

[priegog]

Another way to look is that while your taxes go into funding a couple of wars for reasons you don't even know (no, it's not about terrorism, but I don't want to end up discussing this), his country used that same money to put him through college.
I'm not even going to get into the whole healthcare bit, but if you think paying somewhat higher taxes (and to a goverment who has it's priorities right on where to put that money) is NOT WORTH not ever having to worry about saving up money for your kids' college education (and even after that, watching them struggle to pay off the debt), then I don't really understand your way of thinking.
It all boils down to you (and people who think like you) apparently thinking that having higher taxes lowers europeans' acquisitive power, when that couldn't be further from the truth (could someone back me up with some links?). Now, having a huge-ass student-loan debt to pay... I think that would diminish your acquisitive power for quite a number of years.

Re:Yay for common sense

[David Greene]

Operating Systems -- The underlying principles are mostly the same Algorithms -- New ones are constantly being discovered but the most popular ones have been the same for 30+ years mostly (the undergrad level ones are generally not newer things)... Networking -- Some changes with wireless but most of the TCP/IP protocol that is taught in undergrad courses is the same Discrete Math -- Again mostly the same for the past 30 years Computer Organization -- Mostly this is the same (assuming the course on digital system design/k-maps/binary number systems/etc...)

My experience is that the ability to grasp the complexity of the above areas varies widely but generally the higher the degree, the better one is able to appreciate trends and anticipate them. The above areas only look static to one who hasn't studied them very deeply.

• Operating Systems -- Manycore is causing huge upheaval. Scalability is not a solved problem.
• Algorithms -- The algorithms aren't nearly as important as the ability to analyze complexity, a non-trivial skill most B.S. grads don't possess.
• Networking -- Networking goes way beyond the internet. High-speed interconnect is a big area of research, for example.
• Discrete Math -- Like complexity analysis, this is foundational knowledge. The concepts reappear over and over again. When one recognizes the patterns and how they interact across disciplines, interesting things can happen.
• Computer Organization -- This is very much not the same as even 10 years ago. We've hit the frequency ceiling and manycore combined with power constraints is fundamentally shifting what is possible. Things that seemed silly a decade ago may be the right answer today and some things we've taken for granted as "good" probably aren't anymore.

A higher-level degree is not an advanced apprenticeship. It is about knowing what came before and anticipating what's coming next. Someone with a B.S. is likely to think he knows everything. Someone with a Ph.D. is smart enough to know how ignorant he is.

Not everyone needs or should get an advanced degree. But to claim that such degrees are worthless is the height of hubris

No degree, bad citizen

[Improv]

College is a mix of vocational training (particularly important for some professions) and personal growth in the "learn to be a good citizen" sense. It's socially irresponsible to encourage people cut back on the latter, and being lax on the former results in a lot of "not seeing the big picture" kind of thing. I suppose it might be good for businesses that want to lock their employees into working for them long-term, but it's bad for society.

That is how I started.

[sir lox elroy]

That is how I learned to program. I started out at 13 with basic and have moved up. That is also how I learned about computers. 22 years later I am a full-time programmer and a Network Admin. Self taught all the way.

Turn it around

[theskipper]

Would Google's index (and infrastructure) be as good as it is if they relied on high schoolers?

Umm...no.

Non-cookie cutter programming requires serious, well-educated people.

Re:How about looking tech school not dropping resu

[Anonymous Coward]

How about looking tech schools not dropping resumes from people who when to them they tech stuff that uses in the real work places vs the big schools that some are more about sports then classes also they have less filler classes that have little to no use in the work place that most IP people / codes are in.

How about hiring people who can construct sentences that make some fucking sense?

Good god man, this is the Internet in 2010 not a telegram in 1910. There isn't an extra charge for punctuation.

And hiring manager

[AnonymousClown]

That's not true. A degree is a requirement for access to lots of different kinds of high-paying jobs, if only because the HR manager has a degree and decides on wages.

Whether a degree is actually useful in day-to-day work, well there I might agree with you.

and hiring manager....

Two stories:

The first one is about a supervisor I had who felt one must have a college degree to program device drivers. He blew off a really brilliant (I've never worked with a guy since who was that smart - even the PhDs at IBM) guy because he had only a HS diploma.

Second - a bit longer:

There's a company in SE Florida that needed someone to test circuit boards. A two year technical degree was all that was needed: plug board in, read test equipment, note failure.

When they were looking for someone, an EE shows up. They hired him. This guy then takes advantage of the tuition reimbursement and gets a MS EE. He leaves for greener pastures and maybe to actually use his education. Now, they list his job. Guess what? Requirements for thejob: MS EE. A test job. All because this guy got one on the job. They're reasoning? Well, because he got one he must have needed one.

It wouldn't have surprised me if they were one of the companies that said "We can't get any qualified Americans" and eventually hired a H1-b.

These guys need to consider their own future

[ugen]

Hiring coders out of high school may very well work for some projects, and those kids may be happy to have a "real job". But in the long run the joke will be on them. Unless they plan to spend the rest of their life in that company (unlikely, as they seem intent on using a cheap supply of fresh young kids) they will find that most projects do appreciate (and need) a bit more education. Back to school for them, and not at the time when it's most convenient - it's hard to go back.

On the specific issue of coding vs. education. 20 years ago I started working as a software developer full time before I had any education above high school. I did some useful things that seemed "cool" then and worked out well enough for my employers. 20 years forward and two masters degrees later (Comp. Eng and Comp.Sc./Infosec) I can see that I am by far a better engineer (and coder too, but that's almost secondary), in part due to all the experience and in part due to education. I would have never been able to do what I do now without additional years of studying.

YMMV