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Bitcoin Releases Version 0.3
Teppy writes "How's this for a disruptive technology? Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer, network-based digital currency with no central bank, and no transaction fees. Using a proof-of-work concept, nodes burn CPU cycles searching for bundles of coins, broadcasting their findings to the network. Analysis of energy usage indicates that the market value of Bitcoins is already above the value of the energy needed to generate them, indicating healthy demand. The community is hopeful the currency will remain outside the reach of any government." Here are the FAQ, a paper describing Bitcoin in more technical detail (PDF), and the Wikipedia article. Note: a commercial service called BitCoin Ltd., in pre-alpha at bitcoin.com, bears no relation to the open source digital currency.
The Wikipedia article (beyond the fact that the article is on the most unreliable data source outside of a Soviet propaganda factory) is sourced entirely to bitcoin.org. This /. article is sourced entirely to Wikipedia and to....bitcoin.org.
So it's slashvertising AND garbage. Three cheers for kdawson.
Bitcom... Backed by the Greek treasury.
Tisha Hayes
As someone pointed out, this article is light enough on source material that it may count as more of a slashvertizement. That said, if Bitcoin, or any micropayment and/or e-cash plan scales beyond a certain level, it's gonna attract both criminals and government interest and intervention, much as age-old Islamic halawa got a lot more notice when used by gangs like Al-Qaeda.
Luke, help me take this mask off
Given that the gold standard is gone, I'd like to see those guarantees too. Your paper money is virtual as well.
from wiki
The assumption that the longest one is the oldest and most reliable is invalid, Since anyone can peer, there's no reason that a peer can't fake itself as 20, 30, 100 peers, and, working on a very fast machine, produce a longer chain quickly than an older peer.
i would say that any currency is backed by the goods and services one can buy with it.
the one way to make sure a currency is usable in daily trade is for it to be accepted as tax payment by local government.
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
Don't forget, you can always use your paper money as toilet paper. That's why I keep a few American dollars in my wallet. You just never know when a washroom might run out of toilet paper.
I've been involved with the Bitcoin project for a while, and there are steps in place to prevent this. Essentially, the network tries to maintain block generation at a rate of six blocks per hour (one every 10 minutes) by checking every 2856 blocks (nominally 2 weeks) if the rate was too high or too low. At that point, all nodes adjust their hash target such that it gets more or less difficult to generate blocks. The net result is that more nodes or faster nodes can only really influence the market for 2856 blocks. There is discussion about reducing this number to lower that time, as well. If you'd like to discuss this with some Bitcoin participants, drop by the IRC channel: #bitcoin-dev on Freenode. I'm Lachesis on IRC.
So this system requires CPUs to burn scarce, real electricity in order to generate virtual electronic tokens whose only purpose is to simulate the scarcity of rare metals, so that we can continue to use the old 'exchange value' economic model in the realm of information where by definition, it does not apply.
This seems like basing an economy on burning one's food crops to prove wealth and using the ash to buy things. I'm sure it would 'work', for some definition of work, but it doesn't seem particularly... efficient. Or sensible. Granted, humans do indulge in self-destructive behaviour, but do we really have to port all our bad habits into the digital world?
Is there some actual upside to this system which I'm not getting?
You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
Since the site is down and the summary is light on information, let me try and summarise this a bit better, from what I've picked up, so I might be wrong on some of the details):
Nodes connect to each other in a P2P network.
The nodes perform hashing problems, attempting to find a number that hashes to a value with a certain number of 0's at the start (binary zero's, aka, the number has to be below a certain value)
The network assigns bitcoins to those nodes who have found solutions to the hashes.
After a certain amount of time the difficulty of finding the hashes increases(an extra 0 is added to the hash solution required)
This increase in difficulty continues until eventually there will be 21million bitcoins and no more can exist.
We are currently in the inflationary stage, so the supply of bitcoins is increasing. once all 21 million have been assigned, then it will become deflationary, as no new coins can ever be created and coins that are lost are lost forever.
bitcoins can be divided into 100 million pieces, so the limit of 21 million coins is not a major stumbling block.
Essentially it's a way to create a decentralised currency with a hard limit on how much is available, ensuring that it cannot be inflated by a central government simply printing more cash or adding some numbers to a computer system.
Cool, I can say it will cost you "2 Bits" and people won't stare at me like I'm some sort of old geezer.
The real Sig captains the Northwestern. This one captains
Money is money because people believe it is money. Gold-backed currency needs to have people believing that the government is actually going to turn the currency into gold (and not, say, end the gold standard). And if you trust your government enough to do that, today's system isn't much more of a stretch: trusting the government to keep the value of your currency "relatively stable" without any particular commodity attached to it.
And commodity prices are subject to wild swings too, you know.
The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
how do these big fat women always find the exact center of a doorway or an aisle so that no one can get around them
Practice. If they get too close to any wall their gravity might collapse it towards them.
In practice the quantity of gold/silver/etc available is not fixed.
Tomorrow someone builds better mining equipment and suddenly there's 5 times as much available.
A ship loaded with a significant quantity sinks over the mid atlantic trench?
well in practice it has gone beyond where humans can practically access it and so might as well no longer exist.
Alternatively someone might build some kind of Von Neumann machine which can extract your precious metal from seawater or mine asteroids and suddenly the value of your precious metal would drop close to zero.
Whenever someone invents a cheaper way to mine gold you're going to experience price inflation as the gold in your safe becomes less valuable.
gold is only special to people who delude themselves that it's somehow special.
Food, clean water, tools, feminine hygiene products, useful information.
If you're convinced fiat currencies are going to collapse these are what you should be filling your underground bunker with, not some shiny metal which will only be worth anything if people believe it has any intrinsic value.
Tying fiscal policy to the amount of shiny stuff we can dig out of the ground is far sillier.
If the amount is fixed, then as the economy expands the available value per coin increases and prices drop: instant, guaranteed deflation, getting worse as the rate of value growth increases. If you want to sell something new into a stable economy, everyone else has to drop their prices to make room for you.
Fiat currency may require us to appoint agents to keep the money supply and the value supply roughly in sync, but at least it provides the mechanism to do it. With the ooooh-pritty-shiny-stuff system, so appealing to people who can't think when there's pritty shiny stuff in sight, money and value are absolutely guaranteed to get out of sync, badly. very fast, with no remedy at all. Unless of course the economy is totally stagnant, with no new wealth being created. Yeah, that's what we want.
As always, all IMO. Insert "I think" everywhere grammatically possible.
Good luck with that...
Is by taking it out of circulation. Most of the gold we've mined isn't used for anything, it is simply inspected and then put back underground, only this time in a hole humans dug that we guard. It is artificial scarcity. The gold is there, it could be used, but it isn't because it is "backing" something. So it sits in a vault doing nobody any good.
Also, who says finite is good? What happens when the economy grows to the point that you need more gold, but none is to be had. Well then you start experiencing deflation and that is a very bad thing. Deflation is a wonderful way to get people to stop spending, stop lending, and as such to freeze the economy. Remember: Money is only good if you can spend it. Moreover, money is only good if you DO spend it. If everyone hordes money and doesn't spend it, well then what really is happening is people are refusing to trade. That means the economy stalls.
As you say, gold is only worth what it is because western cultures have an obsession with the shiny stuff and it is used as a hedge. It's real value, in terms of industrial use, is far lower. All those idiots who get gold in preparation for the collapse of society would be sorely disappointed if such a thing ever happened. Gold would be near worthless as it has few uses in a non-industrial society (basically only as decoration) and thus would be worth fuck-all as a currency in a survivalist world. More likely, Metro 2033 has the right answer and bullets would be the closest thing to currency out there (it would mostly just be direct barter).
What is the problem with deflation? In the U.S. we had deflation for over a century and it worked out quite well. (Spiral deflation is only theoretical - it has never happened.) Hard currency has been used for thousands of years and there are no indications that any economy has resorted to mass saving or hoarding. People generally enjoy spending money and growing their wealth; it's human nature.
Inflation, on the other hand, is the root of much evil. It has utterly crushed economies and created conditions ripe for mass-murdering, genocidal tyrants to come to power. Deflation has never done such a thing.
Money makes trade between two parties much easier because without some form of currency we would have to rely on a Coincidence of Wants. It also acts as a method of informing producers what consumers are desiring, generally in a way that is much more efficient than centralized control.
There is nothing wrong with interest, per se. It allows those with capital an opportunity to increase wealth and those without capital an opportunity to create wealth. Both parties win.
Increasing taxes generally has the effect of reducing economic activity (Laffer Curve). Using taxes to control the money supply would have the effect of destroying production.
The concern of the solvency of the lender should only be for the interested parties. However, in your example of fractional-reserve lending this can really only be practiced with paper currency. In order to make a loan, the currency must be provided. If a bank has $10 of deposits and wishes to make $15 in loans, it must find the extra $5 from some place. In the case of a hard currency, it must find another party to provide the $5, but in the case of a paper currency, it simply gets the money from the central bank at some interest rate that is probably at a rate below what the market would demand for that money.
Inflation, even a 'small' amount, has the effect of encouraging malinvestment. When people know that come time to retire, that $10,000 they added to their savings this year is only going to be worth $5000 when they retire, they know that they must put this money some place to protect it from inflation. But people are generally poor at choosing places to invest their money, and they are downright awful when they feel pressured to do so. They invest in stocks that don't give dividend yields; they invest in real estate and have no idea why. In short, they invest in things that are beyond their understanding because they feel pressured to do so. OTOH, if there were instead a small amount of deflation, convincing people to part with their money would be considerably more difficult. Since the average person could be confident in knowing that a penny saved is truly a penny earned, not some fraction thereof, they would stick with what they know, and the economy would grow more efficiently.
It is the paper currency that is the root of evil. Many try to speak of it as if is some new concept; the next evolutionary step after gold, but fiat currency systems have been around for thousands of years, and every society that ever engaged this policy has gone bankrupt, including Ancient Rome.
I once took an excursion to Reddit, and later HN. Unlimited up/down voting sucks when dealing with a hive-mind.
For fifty years, the only valid currency has been crude oil. All national currencies trade against the cost of a barrel of oil. What makes you like gold? It's just soft yellow metal. You can't fill your gas tank with gold. Military might (which is the backing for most national currencies) is certainly more useful than your silly gold.